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Old 06-09-2001, 06:32 AM   #1
lindil
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Ring * * Introduction and FAQ's to the Forum and the Rev. Silmarillion Project * *

version 6.4

The Silmarillion Project began as outgrowth of the Books forum 7+ years ago in this thread, wherein Burrahobbit innocently asked the question of ' which books other than the Hobbit/LotR were 'canonical'' . As the exploration to this question was near and dear to lindil's heart, he immediatly signed up, posted and what followed was the idea that perhaps since this question had ultimatelty been side-stepped by CRT with the publication of UT/HoME, an internet forum could tackle not only the question of 'what' is canonical but could perhaps create a new Silmarillion or as it is tentatively being called now TRANSLATIONS FROM THE ELVISH.- that is a compilation of virtually all of the writings of/pertaining directly to the First, Second, and early to mid Third Ages.

Our situation is aptly in many ways parallel to Bilbo's own Translations from the Elvish [sans real Elves to talk to] in that we have a library:
The History of Middle-EarthSeries
The Silmarillion [often seen as QS77/01 or Sil77]
Unfinished Tales [often seen as UT]
The Children of Húrin [often seen as CoH]
The Hobbit
The Lord of the Rings
[LotR]
Adventures of Tom Bombadil
The Letters
The Road Goes Ever On
[RGEO]
Various articles of JRRT in the Vinyar Tengwar journal [VT] and the Parma Eldalamberon

Not all of which agree with each other [to put it mildly], present varying depths of treatment, are in a variety of languages and dialects, some are of dubious historical 'purity' and the quality of writing varies greatly.

From these many and diverse collected writings we are trying to create a compostite narrative of the pre-LotR era history of M-E and Valinor just as Bilbo did using the library of Rivendell.

Some things such as the Commentary on the Athrabeth and the Laws and Customs among the Eldar and most of the linguistic material will be included as appendices, but much will be worked into the narrative framework provided by CJRT in [b]The Silmarillion[b] [or it's source texts] whenever possible [such as historical/biographical details from The Shibboleth of Feanor, the account of the Druedain in Brethil, the story of the awakening of the Elves in Quendi and Eldar].

We can of course never have 'The Silmarillion' as JRRT envisaged it, because major sections were never completed as begun [ such as Of Tuor and his coming to Gondolin or the Narn Chîn Húrin or The Wanderings of Húrin] and some were left unrevised from the 30's such as the Ruin of Doriath and the Fall of Gondolin. But we have courtesy of his son Christopher Tolkien [usually reffered to as CJRT or CRT] The Silmarillion itself, albeit in a somewhat compressed form, and more importantly Unfinished Tales and that vast storehouse of lore, the HoM-E series. Some from all of this we are attempting to that which for a variety of reasons CJRT did not.

A self-consistent [and LotR/RGEO consistent] compendium, primarily in narrative form, of all of the writings that tell the stories from Song of Creation in the Ainulindale to the chance meeting of Thorin and Gandalf at the Prancing Pony in Bree [well at least that is where I would end it [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]].


<u> 'FAQ'S' </u>

~1 "This is an amazing project who is currently involved, and how can I join?"
The following folks skills are ascribed by lindil and may not reflect how they see themselves.

Aiwendil - Currently the primary Moderator , program Co-Coordinator. General editor, loremaster, linguist
Findegil - after long months of careful [and respectful] suggestions from the sidelines, now: editing and formating, text updating and first draft producing
lindil - Founding Forum Moderator - General program Co-ordinator - editor
Maedhros - gen editing
aravanessë - linguistical remarks from the sidelines
mhagain - linguistical remarks from the sidelines
Petty Dwarf - gen editing
&
Underhill, Mr. - general review, Chief Troll constultant, Silm Forums admin duties
-=-=-==- the above are active members-=-=-=-
Elenion, Tar - loremaster, linguist, general review
Eruhen - linguist and general review
Gimli the Dwarf - general review
Jallanite [currently on leave of absence]
Gwaihir the Windlord
Lenwa [posts as Eru] - general review and formatting
Obloquy
Pengolodh
Telchar
Alkanoonion - general review
Antoine - general editing and review
Heren Istarion - general review
Mithadan - general review and loremaster
Tirinvo - general review and linguistics
are currently inactive and/or semi-active members.


Some jobs are obvious , others can be ascertained by PMing one of the Mods.
[for the moment Aiwendil is handling all such requests]

But what the project really needs is this:
Truly reading through the material in current progress and studying the relevant source texts and making intelligent comments and suggestions!

Do not feel you have to restrict yourself to the editorial grind, although that is obviously the heart of the project.

Currently you join by perusing the below listed obligatory threads and then putting a notice in ** General Comments on the Project & Sign Up Thread ** thereby expressing your intent, and then begin posting w/ us on the various threads.

Some folks have joined by the more oblique method of posting amazing work and participating in a way that leaves us dependent upon their particular brand of genius, this is fine, especially if you have amazing work to contribute! But it is nice to have a public record of who is who and what they want to do.

For those who do join us please subscribe to the active project threads, and check the private forum/and private messages regularly [every couple or so days perhaps].

Please also note, not everyone participates to the same degree.

Some such as Aiwendil, Maedhros, Findegil [and in times past Heren Istarion and Jallanite and myself ]involve themselves in the day to day administration and forum moderation, and large scale planning of the project, others such as Antoine and Maedhros have taken on large projects [ and completed them I might happilty add]. Most are involved to the extent of intelligently participating in specific ongoing projects by reading over the source texts proposing the needed changes to mesh or update texts, commenting and then when needed, voting upon any changes not resolved by consensus.

A quaint system, but it has worked splendidly for us so far, as long as we have one person for each project willing to make the first draft.

Project Sign-up announcement/Change in Password Policy ~~~ as of 10/1/03

Since it seems that a lot of new members join and then disappear pretty quickly, and since all of the important discussion takes place in the public forum, we've decided to alter the policy regarding giving out the password to the private forum.

Previously, anyone who expressed interest in the project was given the password. The new policy is that a member must become active in the project here on the public forum before being given access to the private forum.

Please note that this change amounts to very little. The private forum is as a rule only used for the posting of completed texts. All important discussion takes place here.



~2 Are you planning on publishing this?
There are no plans to publish the material as this would require the blessing of the Estate of JRRT. We are primarily doing this for the joy and satisfaction of seeing order come together out of the Legendarium chaos, and because we know JRRT wanted to see a 'Silmarillion' equal [in size] to the Lord of the Rings come out, CJRT has acknowledged that he would do some of his previous work differently now, but has indicated that he will not revise the Silmarillion any further than the 2001 edition [which oddly enough did not correct such things as Gil-Galad's parentage which CJRT ackowledged was wrongly surmised in the Silmarillion].


As a matter of common agreement and vision, all of the members feel alot more can be done with the wealth of material so meticulously edited by CJRT, and indeed there are several indications that JRRT envisioned a much larger production than the currently published Silmarillion.

~ 3 How are decisions made?
Currently due to much respect and goodwill among the members, things are proceeding according to a 'suggestion and follow-up ' principle. If no consensus is reached we resort to a simple vote in the Private/Members forum.

I forsee the possiblility of a more 'Robert's rules of Order' style coming into being as the project becomes larger, but mercifully this has not been needed so far. And should it need to occur this will be a group decision.So far,it has been a real joy to interact with all of the project members; the level of knowledge, egolessness, good will and warm-heartedness has been an extension of the very spirit we all love in the Legendarium.

As a matter of fact, since the group of active members has become very small, voting has become unnecessary in the last time since everybody could sense the majority from the ongoing discussion.

~4 What has been done so far?

* Currently the forum has decided upon the principles with which to proceed with our project [see link below]
* has come up with an over all outline of Translations from the Elvish [see this thread]
* hosted serious and scholarly discussions of the canonical issues of an extremely large number of topics such as the Kings of the Noldor, the Origin of Orcs [Orcish Fear], Glorfindel, Celebrimbor, the genealogies of Gil-Galad and Celeborn, the Second Prophecy of Mandos, Aelfwine and other unresolved or questionable aspects of the Canon, often coming to a consensus [if usually an unspoken one].
* the current focus is on the the Aninulindale [Source text is from HoME X] which soon should be finished
* finished are also the following chapters:
- Narn Beren ion Barahir (The story of Beren and Lúthien)
- Of the Ruin of Doriath (including the Wanderings of Húrin)
- Of Tour and the Fall of Gondolin (including the Battle of Gondolin from HoM-E II)
- Of the Voyage of Eärendil
- Of the Great Battle and the War of Wrath
* as draft we have the following chapters:
- Narn i Chîn Húrin (needs the incooperation of new infos from CoH)
- Valaquenta (needs final touch by the group)
- Of the Darkening of Valinor (rough draft as yet)
- Of the Thieves' Quarrel (rough draft as yet)
- Of Valinor and the two trees (privat draft, not at this side yet)
- Concerning Naugrim, Ents and Eagles (privat draft, not at this side yet)
- Of the coming of the Elves (privat draft, not at this side yet)
- Of Thingol and Melian (privat draft, not at this side yet)
- Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalie (privat draft, not at this side yet)
- Of the Flight of the Noldor (privat draft, not at this side yet)
- Of the Ruin of Beleriand an the fall of Fingolfin (privat draft, not at this side yet)
* Several other members/friends of the project have contributed their own versions of various parts. Submissions welcomed, they are currently kept in the private forum, but this may change.

Please be warned that the work often proceeds in waves, often a busy month or so may be followed by a many lull months. Do not lose heart! Actually looking back over the work that has been done in almost 7 years is rather staggering: several first rate Scolarship posts [ some debates, some other wise] A huge amount of groundwork of use to any one who may try to undertake similar work in the future. Work on the Darkening of Valinor, the monumental 'Fall of Gondlin', even the most complex 'Fall of Doriath' has been completed and of course examination of dozens of complex canonical issues and theories.

Recently as our membership has decreased we have only been able to work on one project at one time. But this may change again if that is needed.

~5 What is the relationship between the forum and the Project? see #13 below

~6 What is the Translations from the Elvish 'Council-Members Only Forum' aka 'Private Forum' ?

This is a location for the Council to store the project itself so that it may retain a certain amount of control over the circulation of the materials it edits. Currently all discussions other than actual editorial votes will be held here in open sight for the veiwing/commenting public. When completed votes/polls are usually displayed in the public forum anmd left open for further [non-binding!] discussion.

~7 How long till you are finished? well it took JRRT almost 60 years to do what he did and CRT over 25 years to edit the 12 volumes of the HoME materials so I don't really know, at least a few more days.


~8 Who is in charge?

The moderators of the forum, are in a position similar to mayor of the Shire.

lindil is a founding member of the current and past groups working on a new Silmarillion. Aiwendil is currently the main contributor to the project and also a Moderator for both Forums. Jallanite was a moderator [ on the EZboard] and actually did the bulk of the FoG work prior and we seriously look forward to his return!

Mithadan and mr. Underhill are elderstatesman if you will of the forum.

Most likely moderatorship would be conferred on anyone needing to be able to do major editing of texts and move material from one forum to the other, pending approval from the Cheif Wight and the current moderators.

The Council is however a group process where ideas are judged on their merit and will be decided by vote when unanimity is not reached by discussion. Lindil and Aiwendil have no more control over this process than anyone else, unless of course they happen to be the only ones posting, which thank heavens has not happened in years [with the notable exception of one thread!]. Various members contribute according to their capacity, inclination and time.




~9 Do I need to have read all of the HoME series and be a un/certified Middle-Earth Scholar to participate?

No, but I would say a solid familiarity with the Silmarillion and a general familiarity HoME 1-5 and 10-12 and Unfinished Tales is a pre-requisite. Specific technical details can be learned as we go along, as some may have noticed the various project threads can be very dense and demanding, that is just the nature of the beastie. Of course we are aiming to produce new versions of the pre LotR writings that are footnote free, but we will most assuredly have to pay our dues first.

I hope to re-include a guide to the threads of the Forum again at some point. In general any thread of over 20 posts bears looking at , always keeping in mind the dates. various ideas have come and gone here and not everything posted 10 months ago is still currently relevant or agreed upon. The following thread the ** General Comments on the Project & Sign Up Thread ** is possibly the next best place to visit following the FAQ.

~10 Why is there so much discussion of so many incredibly obscure points? well the Silmarillion is essentially a very large collection of 'obscure points' and a collection that is intensely interdependent. A virtual symbiosis. If you pull one thread , the whole cloth is affected. So each decision, word, spelling and such must be pondered and compared w/ the rest of the Legendarium.

~11 What will CRRT have to say when/if he finds out?

We don't know if it will ever come to his attention, although some members have spoken of sending him the finished of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin along w/ an Outline of the rest of the project., This will have to wait for the pilot chapter[s] to be finished and the whole idea to be voted on.

Some [understandably] want to do alot more before inviting official scrutiny. Opinion so far is that he [CRRT]/ and the Tolkien Estate may [read - almost certainly will not not be pleased] , but I think all of us would love to see [however unlikely] his sanction/involvment/oversight.


As the blind man said... 'We shall see!'

~12 Why are so many threads locked or 'archived'? Is someone controlling the discussions? No no one is controlling the discussions, most that are locked or stored away are due to a newer thread of the same subject being started and the desire to avoid the same discussion in 2 threads. Others were locked long after they were last posted on - so that in the event of new discussion of the topic a fresh thread could be started. [Not the norm for the Books and other forums mind you, but we are special here [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]]
Others are tangential to thrust of the forum but have enough value that I would feel guilty if I flushed it down the cyber-drain.

~13 Can non-members of the Council or Project post here, and ask questions on this forum?
Most assuredly - the forum was begun and continues as an open accses board for discussion of the idea of canon, a possible new 'canon', a nNew Revised Silmarillion, otherwise known as Translations from the Elvish, and it's ramifications. This will always be a function of the is forum and it will always be open to all posters of goodwill, whether one is a member of the 'Council' or not.

The Project and Council are offshoots of the forum and it's 'meetings' mostly take place here.

~14 Is it essential to have read all of HoME before joining?


No, it is not. Currently, 2-3 readings each of UT and the Silmarillion are strongly recommended. HoME reading while not required will be important though in varying degrees depending on the text and project involved.
For instance in the new Ainulindale Project Morgoth's Ring is probably the only essential HoME book, any other small bits that might make their way in can and will be posted on the relevant thread, so that everyone will be able to read/discuss/ponder it's implications and possible inclusion.

For the Fall of Gondolin, HoME2, HoME4 [along with UT and Silm of course] have been the primary texts but varrying other bits have come from almost every other volume, linguistic info from H5, later developments from 10-12 can be sprinkled throughout. There is also a Lay of the Fall of Gondolin fragment in H3 that may provide a line or 2 later in the project.

But again there are a few hard, hard core types that usually hunt down all of the tangential tie-in's troughout HoME, UT the Letters, the Road Goes Ever On or even the Adventures of Tom Bombadil . New members can more or less figure on being responsible for the main texts on any given question.

In some cases needed material from a large variety of sources is available to members only [directly or indirectly] on the Private forum, which is one reason it is Private.

15. How are you deciding on the changes? Are you guys and gals just doing whatever 'feels right'?

Not quite.

Here are a list of the 7 Principles,as they now stand, that we follow for each and every change/substitution of the texts we do. They were hashed out over the course of 2 years by Jallanite, Aiwendil and lindil.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
1. The first priority is always given to the latest editions of works published during Tolkien's lifetime.

2. Secondary priority is given to the latest ideas found among Tolkien's unpublished texts and letters, except where they:
a. violate the published canon without specifically correcting an error or
b. are proposed changes that do not clearly indicate the exact details that must be changed and how they are to be changed.

3. If no sources that fall under number 2 can be used to form the actual narrative of a section, then any text or summary created by Christopher Tolkien may be used, provided it does not violate the canon established for that section by numbers 1 and 2 above.

4. No new names and no new expressions in Elvish or in any of J.R.R. Tolkien's special languages may be introduced; all names or expressions in J.R.R. Tolkien's special languages that are updated must be changed either in accordance with a universal change by Tolkien or with a logical reason and a sound etymology.

5. Information in sources of lower level priority are to be preferred over information in sources of higher level priority where the item of information in source of higher level priority can be reasonably demonstrated to be an error, whether a "slip of the pen" or from inadequate checking of previous writing.

6. The actual words used by J.R.R. Tolkien or the editor or summarizer of his work may only be changed, including change by deletion or addition, when:
a) they are minimally changed to agree with statements elsewhere in the canon recognized as of greater validity or to are replaced with words or phrases from later or alternate restatements of the same material for reasons of consistancy or are changed to agree with alternate phrasings used by Tolkien of the same or better validity
b) they are minimally changed to avoid great awkwardness of expression such as ungrammatical constructions or too great a difference in style from the passage or section/chapter into which they are now to be inserted.
c) they are minimally added to in order to expand a sentence fragments or an incomplete phrase into a construction that fits grammatically in the new environment
d) they are deleted to avoid redundancy in new passages compiled from more than one source
e) they are, in verse passages, minimal changes that do not add new information to the tale, to maintain the proper metre and rhyme or alliterative pattern of the original verse.

7. Personal aesthetics are not to be used in establishing the actual events in the narrative; all changes and decisions must be justified by the above principles, either:
a) with explicit indication; that is, a text of greater precedence contradicting a text of lesser precedence, or
b) with implicit indication that JRRT almost certainly would have changed/deleted it. But we must base this on some evidence or text from JRRT or CJRT; that is, a text of greater precedence suggesting beyond reasonable doubt a contradiction with a text of lesser precedence, or
c) in cases where two options are given precisely equal validity by the above guidelines, by a majority vote based on personal aesthetics and individual opinions.
A corollary is that we may not disregard any text or note, old idea or projected change, by JRRT unless it is invalidated by one of the above principles, explicitly or implicitly; that is, we must have a REASON for rejecting something.


N.B. New members please commit these more or less to memory to avoid unecessary and embarrassing posts. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

Hopefully wall sized posters of this fascinating document will soon be available for only $9.99.

For the full protracted and agonizing discussion you need only click here.



Visitors and potential project members please look through the 2 pages of thread titles on the main forum page to see if any questions you might have, have already been asked. IF not then please post your Council and Project questions in the ** General Comments on the Project & Sign Up Thread **

Thoughts re: the Outline in the next post of this thread can be posted in the * Unofficial Outline *thread.

Please do a decent search of the threads and their contents before opening a new one. As this is primarily a work space, it is nice for us who work here and for new visitors not to have it overly cluttered and any more confusing than it must needs be. Threads with Asteriks i.e.

** blah blah New Revised Expanded un-Extrapolated updated Transliterations for Elvish Silmarillion blah blah blah**

may only be started by the Forum Moderators, Project Co-Ordinators or others specifically delegated.

Submissions [and replies] for FAQ's are most welcome. Please send Aiwendil a private message with any suggestions.


Last but certainly not least, our everlasting gratitude to the Barrow Wight himself for agreeing to host these bandwidth eating barrows without [seemingly] a moments hesitation. If it were not for him we would almost certainly be battling the pop-ups at EZ-board.

This post is the creation of lindil purporting to speak for the group, thus far no one has complained.




[ Dec. 28 , December 31, 2001, June 21, June 24, October 09, 10, 20, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ] versions 1.0 to 4.2
[ October 20, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]4.3
[ December 15, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]5.0
[ January 06, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]5.1 and 5.2
version 6.o done on: February 16, 2003
6.1 done on feb 17 2003-=-=-
[ February 17, 2003: version 6.2 ~~~ edited by: lindil ]

[ October 05, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]
[ May 13, 2007: version 6.4 ~~~ edited by Findegil posted by lindil]
__________________
The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

Last edited by Aiwendil; 03-03-2009 at 11:06 AM.
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Old 06-09-2001, 11:09 AM   #2
lindil
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Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path
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Translations from the Elvish [Outline] version 6.o

Outline 6.0 -
Please note that the following outline is more or less lindil's idea of what Translations from the Elvish could look like. It is not the product of direct Project debate. It is included here as it gives a decent idea of what the group is aiming for in general, if not in exact details. All comments re: it can now go in the *Unofficial Translations from the Elvish Thread*
here is Lindil's 'OLD WORLD' SILMARILLION/TftE outline as it
stands now:



================================



TRANSLATIONS FROM THE ELVISH[?] vol. I-III
===

Volume I
Being the Tales of the Creation and the coming of the Eldar and rebellion of the Noldor in Valinor:


AINULINDALE
VALAQUNTA
both from X
-----------
QUENTA SILMARILLION pt1 the base texts for which are the Annals of Aman and the LQ2 of [ X]

******
1 Of VALINOR AND THE TWO TREES /OF THE BEGINING DAYS

2 OF AULE AND YAVANNA

3 OF THE COMING OF THE ELVES
add parts of 'Quendi and Eldar' re : the '144' ? [XI]
4 OF THINGOL AND MELIAN

5 OF ELDAMAR AND THE PRINCES OFTHE ELDALIE add from the Shibboleth of Feanor [XII]
6 {OF THE SILMARILS}THE DARKENING OF VALINOR
[the subchapter division is from X- LQII]
6a + FINWE AND MIRIEL
[w/possible selections from Laws&Customs...' [X]add from the Shibboleth of Feanor [XII]
6b +OF FEANOR AND THE UNCHAINING OF MELKOR
6c + OF THE SILMARILS AND THE UNREST OF
THE NOLDOR
add from'Shibboleth of Feanor' ? [XII]
6d + OF THE DARKENING OF VALINOR
add from of the festival of val
NB: this draft is actually completed and under the thread DoV:...
6e +OF THE RAPE OF THE SILMARILL
6f +OF THE THIEVES ' QUARREL
7 OF THE FLIGHT OF THE NOLDOR
add from'Shibboleth of Feanor'[XII]
8 OF THE SUN ANDTHE MOON AND THE HIDING OF VALINOR
[ additions from Lost tales I ?] This is more problematic than many proposed additions as the nature of the details seems to have gone far afeild from the later conceptions. but perhaps some can be salvaged.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Of the War of the Jewels" incorporating the longer fragments of the Narn i hin Hurin , of Tuor and his Coming to and the Fall of Gondolin, the Wanderings of Hurin
"QUENTA SILMARILLION "ptII
Being the Tales of Middle-Earth of the End of the First Age
these are drawn, up until the 15th chapter primarily from the War of the Jewels, after that it is an amalgam from The Book of Lost talesII, The
Shaping of Middle-Earth, The Lost Road, The War of the Jewels, Unfinished Tales and , The 1977/2001 Silmarillion .

9 OF MEN
I am not at all sure of the way to deal w/ the later conceptions of Chronology. Any ideas?

10 OF THE SIEGE OF ANGBAND
11 OF BELERIAND AND IT'S REALMS /[XV] OF THE NOLDOR INBELERIAND
add from 'Shibboleth of Feanor' [XII]
12 OF TURGON AND THE BUILDING OF GONDOLIN coupled w/ OF MAEGLIN
add from 'maeglin' in XI [possibly switch the order of Chapters w/ Of the Dwarves to reflect Eol's prior contact]

13 CONCERNING THE DWARVES
add from ' On Dwarves and Men' [XII]

14 OF THE COMING OF MEN INTO THE WEST
addfrm On Dwarves and Men and, Faithful Stone ' from {UT & XII]

[ here the chapters have been tentativly renumbered ]

15 OF FINROD AND ANDRETH
add the 'Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth' [X]
[a recent suggestion which found suprising acceptance ]

16 OF THE RUIN OF BELERIAND AND THE FALL OF FINGOLFIN

17 - BEREN AND LUTHIEN
add from [III]

18 OF THE FIFTH BATTLE:NIRNAETH ARNOEDIAD
insert the section from the Narn of Hurin's farewell in Dor Lomin

19 OF TUOR AND HIS COMING TO GONDOLIN

20 OF TURIN TURAMBAR AND THE NARN I CHIN HURIN
[U T, II,III,IV,V and XI] and the gloss from 'Aelfwine and Dirhavel' from [XI]

21 OF THE WANDERINGS OF HURIN and OF THE RUIN OF DORIATH
add from II ?,IV,V [and later sketches of Hurin?] or
[and I consider this more feasable]use CRT's chapter from the 77.

22 THE FALL OF GONDOLIN
add of details of the battle of the city and flight to Sirion from [II]


23OF THE VOYAGE OF EARENDIL AND THE WAR OF WRATH
[w/ or without the 2nd prophecy of mandos?]
================================================== ================



Volume II
being the Appendices to the Quenta Silmarillion and the Tales of the Second Age.

* LAWS AND CUSTOMS AMONG THE ELDAR


*TALE OF YEARS/ANNALS OF THE 1ST AGE [?]

* OF LEMBAS

* Commentary/Notes to the ATHRABETH FINROD AH ANDRETH


Their have been several sugesstions as to how to present the rather chaotic mass of 2nd and third age writings.
In principle I would prefer narratives w/ sub headings - interspersed w/ a tale of years style timelinr when the material is too thin too stand alone as narrative.
THE SECOND AGE:
-Of the Founding of Numenor [w/ a description of numenor from UT]
-Of the Elf kingdoms in Middle-Earth and of Dwarves and Men [pre- war material]
- Aldarion and Erendis
- Tal Elmar
- Of the Rings of Power The War of the Elves and Sauron
- Of the Line of Elros and the Fall of Numenor
-Of the Last Alliance

Maedhros has suggested adding "Chapter III and IV (The Númenórean Chapters) of The Lost Road in Home V.
I think that it gives us an interesting look at Númenórean society in the seemingly last few years of Númenor. Granted that it would need a bit of work, but if we can do the FOG, how hard can this be?"

Volume III
being the Annals and Tales of the Third Age prior to the War of the Ring along with much Elvish linguistic material.

THE THIRD AGE :
[ The folowing interspersed in the midst of a Tale of years/ remaining material from of the Rings of power and the Third Age]
- The Disaster of the Gladden Fields
- Galadriel and Celeborn [remaing third age material]
-Cirion and Eorl
- The Druedain [any remaining pre-LotR material]
-The Palantiri ?
-of Glorfindel and Cirdan ?
-The Istari ?
-The Quest for Erebor [final narrative which sets the stage for the Hobbit]
*ETYMOLOGIES ? [revised]/ ELVISH DICTIONARY Quenya and Sindarin

*QUENDI AND ELDAR w/ the Osanwe - Kenta [and [revised]LHAMMAS ? w/DANGWETH PENGOLOD? ]

* SHIBBOLETH OF FEANOR [linguistic sections] ====================================
+++ Again please note This outline does not as yet reflect the group consensuson allpoints it is primarily the opinions of lindil
+++Even where not specifically mentioned it is assumed that all relevant Annals and versions of the Quenta Silmarillion of I-V, and X-XII will be consulted
++++ This not an outline that takes the more radical farreaching ideas of Myth's Tansformed cosmology into account . The thread of that namecovers some issues , Perhaps an outline similar to this w/explanations of the changes involved in a MT versionof each chapter will appear at somepoint inthe future by someone w/ a strong urge to tackle it.

================================== Comments on the outline, are of course most welcome. Please put them in the 'Unofficial proposed outline thread'.
[ June 21, 2002: Message edited many, many times by: lindil ]5.4

[ October 20, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]5.5

6.o done on

[ March 07, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]
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Old 06-10-2001, 10:17 AM   #3
Pengolodh
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Re: Introduction to the Forum and the Rev. Silmarillion Proj

Well, let me first state that I am very pleasantly suprised with how this is lined up. I am pretty new here, extremely interested in the project and have of course, some questions. But overall, this is very good. ...


[see archives for full text of this post -moderator note]



The index of HoME (and the content of the volumes) you are looking for is this one:

http://www.forodrim.org/daeron/md_hm.htmlwww.forodrim.org/daeron/md_hm.html</a>

The index of all the writings in a chronological order is here:

http://www.forodrim.org/daeron/md_hmch.htmlwww.forodrim.org/daeron/md_hmch.html</a>

[ October 20, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]
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Old 01-22-2002, 10:48 AM   #4
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Lindil et.al. I think this is a worthy project and all the best with it. The best way I can help you is give you some pointers on running projects generally. Most projects run on the energy and enthusiasm of the participants, and fall over because of lack of organisation. At the very least, a bit of clarity at the outset will save time later.

I'd advise you to draw up a 'Terms of Reference' for the project. This should be a brief statement (such as would fit on 2 sides of A4 paper, font size 10 or 12!) which sets out a number of key things about the project, in a way that is clear and unambiguous for all that are involved, especially as, on a long, collective effort inevitably people will come and go.

What should it include?

1. Goals - the overall vision of what you are doing and why.
2. Objectives - what you specifically aim to achieve. How will you know you have finished, is a good question to ask here.
3. Scope - by which is meant rules for determining what you do and do not do. E.G. you could exclude expansion of 2nd and 3rd age narrative.
4. Approach - you should think about what the key steps you are going to take and in what order
5. Risks and issues - ask yourself what problems you think you face, and what you can do about them.
6. Assumptions. If you are making any, note them, and try to validate them.
7. Roles and responsibilities. Very important. Try to understand (1) how decisions will be taken, and (2) who is responsible for keeping things on track.

It might seem a pain to do this but EVERY project manager worth his salt will tell you the same. Trust me, it will be worth it. From the posts I've read you do know most of this anyway. But writing it down so you can refer to it will serve you well. PS just because you've written it down doesn't mean you can't change it if needed!

I hope that's helpful and good luck! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
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Old 10-10-2002, 08:40 AM   #5
lindil
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I have instituted a new system of *'ing whereby those who come in new, can look at all of the posts in the forum at a glance and know which are the essential and active threads and "official project" threads [denoted by **] and which are the inactive but "official project threads" [ i.e. important but can be read later].

A thread w/ no asterix [most of them] indicates that the thread is of a general nature to the project and contains much [ or some info] but is not an official discussion thread tied directly to the current efforts [ Genealogy of the Noldor is a perfect example].

Only moderators or those so designated by the moderators or project leaders should use the asteriks to indicate thread status. PM Aiwendil or meyself if there are any questions re: this, or post your question on the private forum.

I hope to put this up in the FAQ's soon.

[ October 20, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]
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Old 01-24-2013, 04:54 AM   #6
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May be this is the right place to post a text I do not know were to put.
Since the project seems to be taking up some life again, I would liketo give the few snippets I did personally before we left of last time. The plan back then was to review all the parts we had done before starting with something new. To help that process and also to squezze a maximum profit out of it, I thought it would be helpful to writte drafts of the proposed Appendix.
Therefore I started with a kind of introduction text for this Appendix. And the draft for this will follwo here:
Quote:
Appendix
The Silmarillion Project began as outgrowth of the Books forum of the Barrow-downs in the year 2000 in a thread, wherein Burrahobbit innocently asked the question of 'which books other than the Hobbit/LotR were 'canonical'. As the exploration to this question was near and dear to lindil's heart, he immediatly signed up, posted and what followed was the idea that perhaps since this question had ultimatelty been side-stepped by Cristopher Tolkien with the publication of The Unfinished Tales of Middle-Earth and Numenor and The History of Middle-Earth, an internet forum could tackle not only the question of 'what' is canonical but could perhaps create a new Silmarillion or as it is being called now TRANSLATIONS FROM THE ELVISH - that is a compilation of virtually all of the writings of / pertaining directly to the First, Second, and early to mid Third Ages.

Our situation was aptly in many ways parallel to Bilbo's own Translations from the Elvish [sans real Elves to talk to] in that we have a library:
The History of Middle-Earth Series
The Silmarillion
Unfinished Tales
The Children of Húrin
The Hobbit
The Lord of the Rings
Adventures of Tom Bombadil
The Letters
The Road Goes Ever On
The History of the Hobbit

Various articles of J.R.R. Tolkien in the Vinyar Tengwar journal
Various articles of J.R.R. Tolkien in Parma Eldalamberon

Not all of which agree with each other (to put it mildly), present varying depths of treatment, are in a variety of languages and dialects, some are of dubious ‘historical purity' and the quality of writing varies greatly.
From these many and diverse collected writings we have tried to create a compostite narrative of the pre-Lord of the Rings era history of Middle-Earth and Valinor just as Bilbo did using the library of Rivendell.
Some things such as the 'Commentary on the Athrabeth' and most of the linguistic material could not be included, but much was worked into the narrative framework provided by Christopher Tolkien in The Silmarillion (or it's source texts) whenever possible (such as historical / biographical details from 'the Shibboleth of Feanor', the account of the Druedain in Brethil, the story of the awakening of the Elves in 'Quendi and Eldar').
We can of course never have 'The Silmarillion' as J.R.R. Tolkien envisaged it, because major sections were never completed as begun (such as 'Of Tuor and his coming to Gondolin' or the 'Narn I Chîn Húrin' or ‘The Wanderings of Húrin’) and some were left unrevised from the 1930's such as ‘The Ruin of Doriath’ and ‘The Fall of Gondolin’. But we have courtesy of his son Christopher Tolkien The Silmarillion itself, albeit in a somewhat compressed form, and more importantly Unfinished Tales, The Children of Húrin and that vast storehouse of lore, the The History of Middel-Earth series. Some from all of this we are attempting to that which for a variety of reasons Christopher Tolkien did not.
A self-consistent (and Lord of the Rings / The Road Goes Ever On consistent) compendium, primarily in narrative form, of all of the writings that tell the stories from Song of Creation in the ‘Ainulindalë’ to the chance meeting of Thorin and Gandalf at the Prancing Pony in Bree and beyond.
This Appendix attempts to explain how we worked out the text that is presented. Therefore each chapter, which were basicly the entitys we worked with, has its own paragraph here. In it will be given the sources we took our text from and rough procedure how we worked. In addition we will give a summary of the discussions about the more arcane problems we encountered. What normally is not included is a list of the changes of names that we did or a detailed explanation which sentence or phrase or even word was taken from which source. The changes of the names can easily be found in the Index to The History of Middle-Earth. A detailed source information would need as much space (or more) than the text itself. If you are interested in such an information visit the Silmarilion Project section of the Barrow-Downs. There you can still find all the Discussions summarised here in full length and all our working texts, which include the full source information.
This first section of the appendix is the right place to present the rules we developt for the editing process. Even if we present them here as a simple set of rules, don’t belive that they were reached easily. They were fought out in a long and dry discussion, which had not much participants. Nonetheless they were in the end accepated by all and the basis of our work.

1. The first priority is always given to the latest editions of works published during Tolkien's lifetime.
2. Secondary priority is given to the latest ideas found among Tolkien's unpublished texts and letters, except where they:
a. violate the published canon without specifically correcting an error or
b. are proposed changes that do not clearly indicate the exact details that must be changed and how they are to be changed.
3. If no sources that fall under number 2 can be used to form the actual narrative of a section, then any text or summary created by Christopher Tolkien may be used, provided it does not violate the canon established for that section by numbers 1 and 2 above.
4. No new names and no new expressions in Elvish or in any of J.R.R. Tolkien's special languages may be introduced; all names or expressions in J.R.R. Tolkien's special languages that are updated must be changed either in accordance with a universal change by Tolkien or with a logical reason and a sound etymology.
5. Information in sources of lower level priority is to be preferred over information in sources of higher level priority where the item of information in source of higher level priority can be reasonably demonstrated to be an error, whether a "slip of the pen" or from inadequate checking of previous writing.
6. The actual words used by J.R.R. Tolkien or the editor or summarizer of his work may only be changed, including change by deletion or addition, when:
a) they are minimally changed to agree with statements elsewhere in the canon recognized as of greater validity or are replaced with words or phrases from later or alternate restatements of the same material for reasons of consistancy or are changed to agree with alternate phrasings used by Tolkien of the same or better validity
b) they are minimally changed to avoid great awkwardness of expression such as ungrammatical constructions or too great a difference in style from the passage or section/chapter into which they are now to be inserted.
c) they are minimally added to in order to expand a sentence fragments or an incomplete phrase into a construction that fits grammatically in the new environment
d) they are deleted to avoid redundancy in new passages compiled from more than one source
e) they are, in verse passages, minimal changes that do not add new information to the tale, to maintain the proper metre and rhyme or alliterative pattern of the original verse.
7. Personal aesthetics are not to be used in establishing the actual events in the narrative; all changes and decisions must be justified by the above principles, either:
a) with explicit indication; that is, a text of greater precedence contradicting a text of lesser precedence, or
b) with implicit indication that JRRT almost certainly would have changed/deleted it. But we must base this on some evidence or text from JRRT or CJRT; that is, a text of greater precedence suggesting beyond reasonable doubt a contradiction with a text of lesser precedence, or
c) in cases where two options are given precisely equal validity by the above guidelines, by a majority vote based on personal aesthetics and individual opinions.
A corallary is that we may not disregard any text or note, old idea or projected change, by JRRT unless it is invalidated by one of the above principles, explicitly or implicitly; that is, we must have a REASON for rejecting something.
Respectfully
Findegil
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