In Moria, in Khazad-dum. - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Belin · 07-19-2002, 02:01 PM

Quote:

But we will not enter Khazad-dum. You will not enter Khazad-dum.Only I have looked through the shadow of the Gate. Beyond the shadow it waits for you still: Durin's Bane. The world must change and some other power than ours must come before Durin's Folk walk again in Moria.

After the Orcs invaded Moria, its Dwarves were cast into some kind of exile, broken only by Thror, who was not at his most sane at the time. As the quote above shows, driving the orcs out was not enough to reclaim the place, which seems to have been tainted. What is the nature of this exile, and what was special about the dwarves that broke it?

I think that the "other power" refers to the awakening of the Ring, which would mean that Balin's attempt did not violate this prediction. However, Balin didn't know this, and neither did his followers. So... what was he thinking? Why was he willing to enter Moria, and how did he get anyone to come with him? What had changed? He strikes me as far more stable than Thror or even Thrain.

Then again, Gimli, without having any knowledge of what had happened to Balin, or whether he'd succeeded or not, was (although not without apparent necessity, it is true) eager to enter Moria as well, although unlike either of the others, he was on a completely different errand. What, I wonder, was going through his mind?

--Belin Ibaimendi

Arwen Imladris · 07-19-2002, 06:15 PM

What was going through Gimli's mind? Well, I think that he wanted to go into the caves, just because he is a dwarf. He was also thinking that maybe there was a treasure down there waiting for him. Perhaps him and Balin were friends and he really wanted to see him?

Sarin Elfarmour · 07-19-2002, 08:47 PM

Gimli wanted to see his kinsman Balin who he thought was the new lord of moria

Elendur · 07-19-2002, 09:29 PM

Durin's Bane was not the Ring. It was the Balrog.

Sarin is right as well. Gimili must have thought, or hoped atleast, that Balin was still alive. That's why finding Balins tomb was such a suprise to Gimili.

I think Thror entered Moria because of The Ring. It had worked on his greed over time and he became restless, always thinking about Moria and the riches that were lost and should rightly be theirs. He was old and didn't have alot to lose anyways. That is just a summary of what I really think (and a bad one at that) but I dont have much time.

I hope this helped a little.

[ July 19, 2002: Message edited by: Elendur ]

MallornLeaf · 07-19-2002, 10:58 PM

<font color="aqua">Balin, I always thought, wanted to go back to Moria b/c he wanted mithril. Also, just for the pure pleasure of being Lord of Moria. there had to be somthing in that, too.

As for Gimli, he went into Moria for several reasons. one was to see Balin. another was b/c he had to-- the whole fellowship did. and also, he probably hoped to see some of the infamous mithril.

dwarves, it's been said, are sort of greedy. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Belin · 07-19-2002, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Durin's Bane was not the Ring. It was the Balrog.

Of course, but the Balrog was not the "new power" that would have to come before the dwarves could return to Moria, since it had been there for a very long time already.

All the things that have been mentioned so far would explain this easily if Balin had been living peacefully in the Lonely Mountain. But this isn't the case, and none of these reasons seem quite sufficient to make someone want to return to a place that they had been forced out of long before, and that the dwarves had previously refused to enter, something that, in fact, only an insane (or ring-influenced) dwarf had done. If it's that easy to go back, how do you explain their long exile, and Dain's quote at the top of the page?

Edit: It occurs to me that I could be clearer. The things I can think of that would have kept the Dwarves out of Moria are the 1) the tainting of the space and 2) the residence of the Balrog.
I don't see any reason why anybody would think that either of these things had changed. Gimli at least knew that a new power had indeed arisen and that things might change, but Balin did not.

--Belin Ibaimendi

[ July 20, 2002: Message edited by: Belin ]

[ July 20, 2002: Message edited by: Belin ]

Gimli Son Of Gloin · 07-20-2002, 09:33 PM

I think Gimli went in because he was a dwarf. It's as simple as that!

The Silver-shod Muse · 07-21-2002, 02:53 PM

To expand upon what Gimli has said, ("...because he was a dwarf. It's as simple as that!") Moria obviously held some great and consuming fascination for both Balin and Gimli. Balin, though wise, old, and definitely sane, was a dwarf, and dwarves were shown to become easily overwhelmed with desire for material possessions (ex. Thorin's nearly disasterous greed for the wealth of his forefathers of the Lonely Mountain).

After his success in reclaiming the ancient riches of the Lonely Mountain, perhaps Balin began to feel that same ill-fated tug of avarice. After all, what terrible beast could be worse than a wisened, treasure-hoarding dragon? It would not be difficult to awaken something of the same desire in other dwarves, and perhaps Gimli, as the son of Gloin, heard many wonderful tales about the defeat of the dragon, and maybe did not quite believe that there was anything that could not be defeated by the might of dwarves.

Aside from all this, who could resist a peek at such a mighty and glorious show of the abilities of one's high ancestors?

Aule · 07-21-2002, 07:12 PM

The dwarves wanted to see Moria not only for the riches but also because it was there ancestoral home that they had been away from for so long. They couldnt resist temptation.
Even Galadriel said (along these lines) if the elves of Lothlorian had be put into exile by some terror who of them could resist visiting the wood. The same went for the dwarves.

Birdland · 07-21-2002, 07:32 PM

Perhaps greed and treasure had something to do with the dwarves wanting to resettle Moria, (it usually does with Dwarves), but another, even greater reason was that Khazad-dûm was HOME.

It was the last of the Great Dwarf Mansions, and had survived since the beginning of the First Age. After it fell to the Orcs, and then the Lonely Mountain was lost as well, the Dwarves truely became a wandering people, with no true kingdom of their own.

Dwarves seem to be as much wrapped up in their history as the Elves, (they just didn't talk about it to Outsiders as much). And unlike the Elves, the Dwarves did not believe that they had no future in Middle Earth. They figured they weren't going anywhere, and that Khazad-dûm was a birthright that had to be reclaimed if they were to take their place beside Men as equals.

So maybe Thror and Balin did jump the gun in trying to reclaim Khazad-dûm too soon, but you really can't hold it against them.

O'Boile · 07-22-2002, 11:02 AM

The balrog is what kept out the dwarves, however it may be that not all dwarves knew exactly what the evil was in Moria, and thus they may not have known the extent. In FOTR, not everyone knows what the Balrog is exactly (in fact, only Legolas seems to know, he is the only one that names him). Perhapes Balin did not know just how dangerous Moria was, and that is why he went back.

Sarin Elfarmour · 07-22-2002, 08:50 PM

where do dwarves go when they die?

07-19-2002, 06:15 PM	#2
Arwen Imladris Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: In a box with a fox Posts: 1,347	What was going through Gimli's mind? Well, I think that he wanted to go into the caves, just because he is a dwarf. He was also thinking that maybe there was a treasure down there waiting for him. Perhaps him and Balin were friends and he really wanted to see him? __________________ "Wake up! Wake up! Wake up, sleepies, we must go, yes, we must go at once."

07-19-2002, 08:47 PM	#3
Sarin Elfarmour Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 43	Gimli wanted to see his kinsman Balin who he thought was the new lord of moria __________________ Baruk Khazad! Khazad ai-menu

07-19-2002, 09:29 PM	#4
Elendur Wight Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Arnor Posts: 200	Durin's Bane was not the Ring. It was the Balrog. Sarin is right as well. Gimili must have thought, or hoped atleast, that Balin was still alive. That's why finding Balins tomb was such a suprise to Gimili. I think Thror entered Moria because of The Ring. It had worked on his greed over time and he became restless, always thinking about Moria and the riches that were lost and should rightly be theirs. He was old and didn't have alot to lose anyways. That is just a summary of what I really think (and a bad one at that) but I dont have much time. I hope this helped a little. [ July 19, 2002: Message edited by: Elendur ] __________________ Son of Isildur.

07-19-2002, 10:58 PM	#5
MallornLeaf Haunting Spirit Join Date: May 2002 Location: who cares? Posts: 76	<font color="aqua">Balin, I always thought, wanted to go back to Moria b/c he wanted mithril. Also, just for the pure pleasure of being Lord of Moria. there had to be somthing in that, too. As for Gimli, he went into Moria for several reasons. one was to see Balin. another was b/c he had to-- the whole fellowship did. and also, he probably hoped to see some of the infamous mithril. dwarves, it's been said, are sort of greedy. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ ". . . All we must decide is what to do with the time that is given us." "I pass the test, I will diminish, and go into the West, and remain Galadriel."

07-20-2002, 09:33 PM	#7
Gimli Son Of Gloin Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: The Halls of Montezuma, and the Shores of Tripoli Posts: 495	I think Gimli went in because he was a dwarf. It's as simple as that! __________________ The Few, the Proud, the Marines.

07-21-2002, 02:53 PM	#8
The Silver-shod Muse Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: The shoulder of a poet, TX Posts: 388	To expand upon what Gimli has said, ("...because he was a dwarf. It's as simple as that!") Moria obviously held some great and consuming fascination for both Balin and Gimli. Balin, though wise, old, and definitely sane, was a dwarf, and dwarves were shown to become easily overwhelmed with desire for material possessions (ex. Thorin's nearly disasterous greed for the wealth of his forefathers of the Lonely Mountain). After his success in reclaiming the ancient riches of the Lonely Mountain, perhaps Balin began to feel that same ill-fated tug of avarice. After all, what terrible beast could be worse than a wisened, treasure-hoarding dragon? It would not be difficult to awaken something of the same desire in other dwarves, and perhaps Gimli, as the son of Gloin, heard many wonderful tales about the defeat of the dragon, and maybe did not quite believe that there was anything that could not be defeated by the might of dwarves. Aside from all this, who could resist a peek at such a mighty and glorious show of the abilities of one's high ancestors? __________________ "'You," he said, "tell her all. What good came to you? Do you rejoice that Maleldil became a man? Tell her of your joys, and of what profit you had when you made Maleldil and death acquainted.'" -Perelandra, by C.S. Lewis

07-21-2002, 07:12 PM	#9
Aule Wight Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hammering away in Valinor Posts: 126	The dwarves wanted to see Moria not only for the riches but also because it was there ancestoral home that they had been away from for so long. They couldnt resist temptation. Even Galadriel said (along these lines) if the elves of Lothlorian had be put into exile by some terror who of them could resist visiting the wood. The same went for the dwarves. __________________ For him that is pitiless, the deeds of pity are ever strange and beyond reckoning - of Melkor before his final downfall

07-21-2002, 07:32 PM	#10
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,757	Perhaps greed and treasure had something to do with the dwarves wanting to resettle Moria, (it usually does with Dwarves), but another, even greater reason was that Khazad-dûm was HOME. It was the last of the Great Dwarf Mansions, and had survived since the beginning of the First Age. After it fell to the Orcs, and then the Lonely Mountain was lost as well, the Dwarves truely became a wandering people, with no true kingdom of their own. Dwarves seem to be as much wrapped up in their history as the Elves, (they just didn't talk about it to Outsiders as much). And unlike the Elves, the Dwarves did not believe that they had no future in Middle Earth. They figured they weren't going anywhere, and that Khazad-dûm was a birthright that had to be reclaimed if they were to take their place beside Men as equals. So maybe Thror and Balin did jump the gun in trying to reclaim Khazad-dûm too soon, but you really can't hold it against them.

07-22-2002, 11:02 AM	#11
O'Boile Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 117	The balrog is what kept out the dwarves, however it may be that not all dwarves knew exactly what the evil was in Moria, and thus they may not have known the extent. In FOTR, not everyone knows what the Balrog is exactly (in fact, only Legolas seems to know, he is the only one that names him). Perhapes Balin did not know just how dangerous Moria was, and that is why he went back.

07-22-2002, 08:50 PM	#12
Sarin Elfarmour Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 43	where do dwarves go when they die? __________________ Baruk Khazad! Khazad ai-menu