Middle-Earth Geneaology - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

LaurinaAinur · 08-19-2002, 08:10 PM

I am researching Aragorn's history, and I have a question:
I understand that Elrond and his brother Elros (Aragorn's ancestor) were half-elven. After the War of Wrath, Elron chose to be an Elf, while Elros chose to be a Man. How did he do that? How can any one person relinquish his or her immortality? Is it when they marry a Man? Any input on this would be appreciated.

Morgoth Bauglir · 08-19-2002, 09:57 PM

they were given a choice by the valar/illuvatar. well, manwe under eru really.....so eru it is!

Legolas · 08-19-2002, 10:40 PM

Manwe gave them his choice, yes.

On the relinquishing of immortality, Squatter of Amon Rudh gave an answer which echoes my own thoughts when the subject came up in the thread 'Passing Over the Sea' started by Thranduil.

It was given in response to this post:

Quote:

But do elves have to give up their immortality? I mean Arwen did, and some others through the ages,but does it say specifically some where that elves have to do it (if so, I'm sorry and could you please point that part out).

Here it is:

Quote:

Elves are never obliged to give up their immortality, but they may choose to do so if they so desire. Luthien becames mortal because after her death she requests that Mandos re-unite her with Beren, and Manwe, having "sought counsel in his inmost thought, where the will of Iluvatar was revealed", offers her the choice to live in Valimar, where she could forget the griefs of her life, until the end of the world or to return to Middle-earth with Beren, but do so as a mortal and to share his fate after death.
Whilst not being obliged to make a personal request of the Valar, or to enter the Halls of Mandos, Arwen makes the same decision. She elects to share the fate of her husband so that death will not permanently separate them.

In each of these cases, immortality is something that is relinquished for love: eternal separation after death is something which the Elven-women find harder to accept than to pass beyond the circles of the world entirely, yet remain with the men that they have chosen.

For those of half-elven blood, whether to share the fate of Elves or of Men is one which they make for themselves, so that Elrond binds himself to the Firstborn, whereas his brother Elros elects the life of a Man, albeit one of greatly extended span.

[ August 20, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]

LaurinaAinur · 08-19-2002, 10:50 PM

Thank you Legalos for finding that...very interesting. I wondered how that worked! It is interesting how Arwen and Aragorn are related, albeit distantly.

MallornLeaf · 08-21-2002, 08:24 PM

After Earendil "completed his quest" (to make a long story short) he, his wife, and his children (Elrond and Elros) were given the choice (by Eru through the Valar) to be either men or elves. we all know what they chose

Tar Elenion · 08-21-2002, 10:26 PM

--------
Quote:
Elves are never obliged to give up their immortality, but they may choose to do so if they so desire.
---------

No. Elves could not give up their immortality even if they desired. Eru Iluvatar is the only one who could allow a change of 'fundamental kind', and he did so only in the cases of Luthien and Tuor.

Legolas · 08-22-2002, 12:16 PM

So what exactly did Arwen do?

Morgoth Bauglir · 08-22-2002, 02:44 PM

hes right, they can not just give it up. arwen is an exception. since elrond is HALF elven, his children must remain with him wherever he goes to stay immortal. arwen did not stay with her father, thus becoming a mortal.

Legolas · 08-22-2002, 04:52 PM

Being with her father had nothing to do with it. [Also, she did not have the choice that Elrond and Elros had. Her ancestry was that of the Half-elven, but her father and mother were both elves...she didn't have any say in the matter.]---this is apparently wrong, it is stated otherwise in the letters...sorry. Read on.

If you think she did have the choice, she had obviously already chosen to be an elf, have lived almost 3,000 years. Surely it was a permanent choice...Elros couldn't go back to being an elf after discovering the hardships of mortality, even if he wanted to. It would have to go both ways.

Arwen discovered the hardships of immortality by engaging herself in a relationship with a mortal, and in doing so, watching her father leave her forever. She gave up her immortality because she could not go on without him...because she waited so long to give it up, it's obvious that it was not a matter of the half-elven choice given to Elros and Elrond.

Also, Elrond's sons did not stay him (they have sailed over the sea, but it would've been years into the Fourth Age, long after Elrond himself had sailed into the west), but we're not told they became humans and passed away.

You could say that she gave up her immortality voluntarily by making choices that she knew would bring great grief upon her and passed away in the same fashion that Miriel passed away, but there's a problem there...was she counted as a man in her final years, or still an elf? I'm not sure there's a quote on that; I shall look. I've never given this matter so much thought!

[ August 22, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]

Tar Elenion · 08-22-2002, 05:47 PM

Arwen was not an Elf (JRRT is quite explicit about this in Letter 345). She was a Half-elf who was allowed a Choice. Elrond was not an Elf. He was a Half-elf who chose to be accounted among the Elves in fate. As is noted in App. A, Arwen was allowed to 'ive with the youth of the Eldar' while Elrond remained in Middle-earth. Butshe still had to choose between 'immortality' and 'mortality' (eventually).

Legolas · 08-22-2002, 06:50 PM

But given almost 3,000 years to decide? I think not.

akhtene · 08-22-2002, 06:57 PM

As I understood from Appendix, the future of all Elrond's children had to be linked with Elrond and his leaving ME.

Quote:

But to the children of Elrond a choice was also appointed: to pass with him from the circles of the world; or if they remained to become mortal and die in Middle Earth.

And that's what Aragorn says to Elrond

Quote:

Master Elrond, the years of your abiding run short at last, and the choice must soon be laid on your children, to part either with you or with Middle Earth

So it seems to me that by not accompanying Elrond to the Grey Havens and then beyond the seas all his children chose the fate of mortals. I just wonder why they were offered such a limited choice (made so dependent on Elrond in that matter) Isn't that just a bit unfair?

Tar Elenion · 08-22-2002, 10:19 PM

Why do you 'think not'?
JRRT wrote it, and that is what he decided
Arwen did not have to make a choice until Elrond left (though she actually made her choice a couple dozen years earlier in Lorien. She was not an Elf. Luthien is noted as an 'absolute exception' among 'immortals' in being allowed to change her fate. Arwen was allowed to make a choice, not a change, and she had to choose between 'mortality' and 'immortality'. It is as simple (and complex as that).

Legolas · 08-23-2002, 12:11 AM

'think not' wasn't a good way to put it at all.

Rather, his reasoning doesn't make sense to me. He is the author/creator of this world and it is not some sort of requirement that it make sense, but anyway... She happens to have an ancestry including both elves and men. Because of this chance, she has the freedom to do as she wishes for such a long time while others must suffer the cold reality that they will a) soon turn to ashes and be completely forgotten, or b) live forever and the years will wear on them endlessly as they see others come and go and the world around them change uncontrollably. Were Elros' children given this choice? Why then would Aragorn not have this same choice, and the possibility arises that they may live together forever? Perhaps you could offer further insight.

[ August 23, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]

Tar Elenion · 08-23-2002, 12:55 AM

According to the Judgement of Manwe anyone with any mortal blood was in any amount was automatically mortal. The only exception to this was if Manwe specifically granted other Doom to one of mixed blood (which was explicitly done with only seven people, Earendil, Elwing, Elrond, Elros, Elladan, Elrohir and Arwen). The descendants of Elros did not have a Choice because they were not granted a Choice.
It is not explicitly stated why they were not granted a Choice. Death was considered a Gift.

Frodo Baggins · 08-23-2002, 08:42 AM

The way I understod it was this. Because Earendil and Elwing were part elf part human (and they moved to Valinor) their children, Elrond and Elros, were given the chice to be numbered among men or elves. Elros chose to be among men (Dumb idea) and was chosen as the first king of Numenor and was known as Tar-Minaytur (yes I finally read the Sil). Because of that, His children were not allowed to choose the other way part elven or not. Elrond on the other hand chose to be numbered among the elves and was given immortality. He is also related to tons of people. Gil-Galad, Galadriel, (Marrying Galadriel's daughter he also married his cousin. I thought only hobbits did that) Turin Turambar, Nienor Niniel, you get the picture. Anyway, His kids were in turn given the same choice because they to were descended of Earendil.

By the way, were Elros and Elrond twins?? Who was older. The are listed as some times one first and then the other. I assume twins run in that family since Elladan and Elrohir were twins.

[ August 23, 2002: Message edited by: Frodo Baggins ]

08-19-2002, 08:10 PM	#1
LaurinaAinur Pile O'Bones Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: An Elf inTexas Posts: 23	Middle-Earth Geneaology I am researching Aragorn's history, and I have a question: I understand that Elrond and his brother Elros (Aragorn's ancestor) were half-elven. After the War of Wrath, Elron chose to be an Elf, while Elros chose to be a Man. How did he do that? How can any one person relinquish his or her immortality? Is it when they marry a Man? Any input on this would be appreciated. __________________ "It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to." Bilbo Baggins

08-19-2002, 10:50 PM	#4
LaurinaAinur Pile O'Bones Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: An Elf inTexas Posts: 23	Thank you Legalos for finding that...very interesting. I wondered how that worked! It is interesting how Arwen and Aragorn are related, albeit distantly. __________________ "It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to." Bilbo Baggins

08-21-2002, 08:24 PM	#5
MallornLeaf Haunting Spirit Join Date: May 2002 Location: who cares? Posts: 76	After Earendil "completed his quest" (to make a long story short) he, his wife, and his children (Elrond and Elros) were given the choice (by Eru through the Valar) to be either men or elves. we all know what they chose __________________ ". . . All we must decide is what to do with the time that is given us." "I pass the test, I will diminish, and go into the West, and remain Galadriel."

08-21-2002, 10:26 PM	#6
Tar Elenion Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2000 Posts: 358	-------- Quote: Elves are never obliged to give up their immortality, but they may choose to do so if they so desire. --------- No. Elves could not give up their immortality even if they desired. Eru Iluvatar is the only one who could allow a change of 'fundamental kind', and he did so only in the cases of Luthien and Tuor. __________________ Tar-Elenion

08-22-2002, 12:16 PM	#7
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,850	So what exactly did Arwen do? __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

08-19-2002, 09:57 PM	#2
Morgoth Bauglir Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 252	they were given a choice by the valar/illuvatar. well, manwe under eru really.....so eru it is!

08-22-2002, 02:44 PM	#8
Morgoth Bauglir Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 252	hes right, they can not just give it up. arwen is an exception. since elrond is HALF elven, his children must remain with him wherever he goes to stay immortal. arwen did not stay with her father, thus becoming a mortal.

08-22-2002, 04:52 PM	#9
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,850	Being with her father had nothing to do with it. [Also, she did not have the choice that Elrond and Elros had. Her ancestry was that of the Half-elven, but her father and mother were both elves...she didn't have any say in the matter.]---this is apparently wrong, it is stated otherwise in the letters...sorry. Read on. If you think she did have the choice, she had obviously already chosen to be an elf, have lived almost 3,000 years. Surely it was a permanent choice...Elros couldn't go back to being an elf after discovering the hardships of mortality, even if he wanted to. It would have to go both ways. Arwen discovered the hardships of immortality by engaging herself in a relationship with a mortal, and in doing so, watching her father leave her forever. She gave up her immortality because she could not go on without him...because she waited so long to give it up, it's obvious that it was not a matter of the half-elven choice given to Elros and Elrond. Also, Elrond's sons did not stay him (they have sailed over the sea, but it would've been years into the Fourth Age, long after Elrond himself had sailed into the west), but we're not told they became humans and passed away. You could say that she gave up her immortality voluntarily by making choices that she knew would bring great grief upon her and passed away in the same fashion that Miriel passed away, but there's a problem there...was she counted as a man in her final years, or still an elf? I'm not sure there's a quote on that; I shall look. I've never given this matter so much thought! [ August 22, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ] __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

08-22-2002, 05:47 PM	#10
Tar Elenion Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2000 Posts: 358	Arwen was not an Elf (JRRT is quite explicit about this in Letter 345). She was a Half-elf who was allowed a Choice. Elrond was not an Elf. He was a Half-elf who chose to be accounted among the Elves in fate. As is noted in App. A, Arwen was allowed to 'ive with the youth of the Eldar' while Elrond remained in Middle-earth. Butshe still had to choose between 'immortality' and 'mortality' (eventually). __________________ Tar-Elenion

08-22-2002, 06:50 PM	#11
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,850	But given almost 3,000 years to decide? I think not. __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

08-22-2002, 10:19 PM	#13
Tar Elenion Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2000 Posts: 358	Why do you 'think not'? JRRT wrote it, and that is what he decided Arwen did not have to make a choice until Elrond left (though she actually made her choice a couple dozen years earlier in Lorien. She was not an Elf. Luthien is noted as an 'absolute exception' among 'immortals' in being allowed to change her fate. Arwen was allowed to make a choice, not a change, and she had to choose between 'mortality' and 'immortality'. It is as simple (and complex as that). __________________ Tar-Elenion

08-23-2002, 12:11 AM	#14
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,850	'think not' wasn't a good way to put it at all. Rather, his reasoning doesn't make sense to me. He is the author/creator of this world and it is not some sort of requirement that it make sense, but anyway... She happens to have an ancestry including both elves and men. Because of this chance, she has the freedom to do as she wishes for such a long time while others must suffer the cold reality that they will a) soon turn to ashes and be completely forgotten, or b) live forever and the years will wear on them endlessly as they see others come and go and the world around them change uncontrollably. Were Elros' children given this choice? Why then would Aragorn not have this same choice, and the possibility arises that they may live together forever? Perhaps you could offer further insight. [ August 23, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ] __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

08-23-2002, 12:55 AM	#15
Tar Elenion Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2000 Posts: 358	According to the Judgement of Manwe anyone with any mortal blood was in any amount was automatically mortal. The only exception to this was if Manwe specifically granted other Doom to one of mixed blood (which was explicitly done with only seven people, Earendil, Elwing, Elrond, Elros, Elladan, Elrohir and Arwen). The descendants of Elros did not have a Choice because they were not granted a Choice. It is not explicitly stated why they were not granted a Choice. Death was considered a Gift. __________________ Tar-Elenion

08-23-2002, 08:42 AM	#16
Frodo Baggins Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Bag-End, Under-Hill, Hobbiton-across-the Water Posts: 606	The way I understod it was this. Because Earendil and Elwing were part elf part human (and they moved to Valinor) their children, Elrond and Elros, were given the chice to be numbered among men or elves. Elros chose to be among men (Dumb idea) and was chosen as the first king of Numenor and was known as Tar-Minaytur (yes I finally read the Sil). Because of that, His children were not allowed to choose the other way part elven or not. Elrond on the other hand chose to be numbered among the elves and was given immortality. He is also related to tons of people. Gil-Galad, Galadriel, (Marrying Galadriel's daughter he also married his cousin. I thought only hobbits did that) Turin Turambar, Nienor Niniel, you get the picture. Anyway, His kids were in turn given the same choice because they to were descended of Earendil. By the way, were Elros and Elrond twins?? Who was older. The are listed as some times one first and then the other. I assume twins run in that family since Elladan and Elrohir were twins. [ August 23, 2002: Message edited by: Frodo Baggins ] __________________ "I'm your huckleberry....that's just my game."