of Elves or Men - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Eowyn of Ithilien · 01-13-2002, 02:27 AM

I realise that the "which race would you be" question has been asked before, but this is specifically concerning the Doom of the Children of Iluvatar...for myself, I'm still undecided.
To live forever would bring unimaginable pain-to die when in love????

Inziladun · 01-13-2002, 08:12 AM

Unending life could translate into unrelenting boredom. The Elves themselves envied mortality, and that should be pretty telling.

01-13-2002, 09:28 AM

Sure the Elves envied the mortality of men, however men also envied the immortality of elves

Voronwe · 01-13-2002, 10:44 AM

It is said that even the Valar will come to envy the mortality of Men.

Given the choice, I'd probably want to hold onto my mortality, not to mention my free will, which is another thing unique to Men.

-Voronwe

red · 01-13-2002, 12:35 PM

It is not the living forever I envy as much as the preservation of the body. I don't want an old, useless, wrinkled, ugly body no matter how keen my mind still is. I'd give up mortality any day to keep my body the way it is. I'm with the Elves. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

-red

Lush · 01-13-2002, 01:58 PM

Thing is, the great cliche stands true here; the grass is always greener on the other side.
As for me, immortality and the prospect of keeping my wonderful body just the way it is now (*wink wink*-Red) is very attractive, but the soul is immortal already, and that's enough for me.

Turambar · 01-13-2002, 02:11 PM

Voronwë - did the elves not have free will? [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

Voronwe · 01-13-2002, 04:22 PM

Elves didn't have free will in the sense that Men did, since their fate (and the fate of the Valar in Ea) was already determined by the music of the Ainur. But this doesn't necessarily mean that every little detail of an elf's life was already mapped out. They just didn't have the power to shape their own destiny in the way that men did.

-Voronwe

The Mirrorball Man · 01-14-2002, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Voronwe:
[QB]Elves didn't have free will in the sense that Men did, since their fate (and the fate of the Valar in Ea) was already determined by the music of the Ainur.

Yes, but all throughout the history of Middle-Earth, Men have often used their free will to become servants - or simply pawns - of evil. Think about the Fall of Numenor, the Southrons and the Wainriders, about Isildur, Boromir, the Mouth of Sauron or the Ringwraiths.

Even at their worst hour, people like Eöl or Fëanor had some nobility. When Men fall, they fall all the way.

Ghâshgûl · 01-15-2002, 07:30 AM

Personnally I prefer beeing mortal. Well, I would not like to die right now, but I think there will be a time (perhaps when I'm 80?) when I will say "It was a good life, but now it's enough, I'm tired". Living on in this world for thousands and millions and billions and gazillions of years sounds a little worrying.

I also believe in an immortal soul (hoping that the memories on my mortal life here will not expire after 40 days), but even if I did not, I would not want to live for an infinite time.

Well, I admit: The prospect that Lush keeps her wonderful body just the way it is now sounds very tempting... [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Ghâshgûl

[ January 15, 2002: Message edited by: Ghâshgûl ]

Perethil · 01-15-2002, 02:31 PM

It is better to live a short life, but not live within the boundries and shape my own destiny, than to live till the end of time but be carried by fate. Im with the mortals.

Orald · 01-15-2002, 04:14 PM

Voronwë, are you saying that if Fate and Destiny exist then free will cannot?
I suppose that if someone were to remove his or herself from time, he or she could map out a destiny for each person completely dependent on their choices and where each choice led them.
You see if you were to look back on someones life, could you not say that they were destined to do that? I say you could, even if free will exists.

As for my fate, I choose the mortality of the ever inscrutable man.

Voronwe · 01-15-2002, 04:53 PM

I don't think free will and fate are neccessarily incompatible. If fate only determines certain events which are inescapable, then there would be plenty of room for free will to fill in the gaps. On the other hand, if fate determines each and every moment from the beginning of time to the end, then I find it hard to see how one can make choices that are truely free.

I maybe used the term 'free will' a little loosely in my previous posts. The elves probably had a kind of free will, in that they had the power to make choices, but couldn't in the end escape fate. Men, though, were truely free, not being bound by fate.

-Voronwë

Lush · 01-15-2002, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ghâshgûl:
<STRONG>

I also believe in an immortal soul (hoping that the memories on my mortal life here will not expire after 40 days), but even if I did not, I would not want to live for an infinite time.

Well, I admit: The prospect that Lush keeps her wonderful body just the way it is now sounds very tempting... [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Ghâshgûl

[ January 15, 2002: Message edited by: Ghâshgûl ]</STRONG>

Well, it's nice to see I got somebody's attention...Besides the, uh, fact that immortality apparently helps one defy gravity and the sun, there is also the advantage of keen eyesight and hearing, and of being one with nature. Of course, Walt Whitman was a living testament to the fact that not all of us humans are separated from the natural world.
If I was blessed with the opportunity to occupy Middle Earth, I would want to be an elf (so much interesting stuff happens, and I wouldn't want to miss out on it because of old age and death). Living as I do in this world, my humanity suits me just fine.

Alkanoonion · 01-15-2002, 08:38 PM

I would love to live forever, I don't want to be old and useless.

Turambar · 01-15-2002, 08:39 PM

The Very Secret Diary is HILARIOUS. My fave part is Days 13-19 but it's all very funny.

Lush · 01-15-2002, 09:00 PM

I'd hate to inspire the wrath of those higher up on the food-chain by going off topic, but Legolas' Secret Diary is HYSTERICAL as well, enjoy, but not unless you are very offended by gay humor, or humor in general. I have no idea who wrote this stuff, but you have to admit, it's kind of nice to be able to giggle about the characters every once in a while.

Eowyn of Ithilien · 01-16-2002, 02:20 AM

what if fate is simply our future mapped out in accordance to what our free will would dictate???
[img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Ghâshgûl · 01-17-2002, 06:52 AM

(Lush, when you go off subject, I'll go with you...) I also like Aragorns diary...
"Still not king..." *lol*

Ghâshgûl

[ January 17, 2002: Message edited by: Ghâshgûl ]

Aralaithiel · 01-18-2002, 04:36 PM

Ah yes, the eternal struggle of wanting what the other side has! Both mortality & immortality have their respective pros & cons. I would choose immortality. I agree with the post that fate & free will are not necessarily imcompatible. We are all on a path that has been decided for us, but we do get to pick & choose the way we follow that path. There are such things as side-tracks off the beaten path (don't ya love cliches?) of life, but we all end up on one path that has been decided for us.
I do think that the elves has a sort of free will. I can't think of it right off hand, but in the Silmarillion there are some examples. I will now go & see if I can find them - or re-read the whole thing & see if I am not mistaken!

01-13-2002, 02:27 AM	#1
Eowyn of Ithilien Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Australia Posts: 277	of Elves or Men I realise that the "which race would you be" question has been asked before, but this is specifically concerning the Doom of the Children of Iluvatar...for myself, I'm still undecided. To live forever would bring unimaginable pain-to die when in love???? __________________ But of bliss and glad life there is little to be said, before it ends; as works fair and wonderful, while still they endure for eyes to see, are their own record, and only when they are in peril or broken for ever do they pass into song.

01-13-2002, 08:12 AM	#2
Inziladun Gruesome Spectre Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Heaven's doorstep Posts: 8,058	Unending life could translate into unrelenting boredom. The Elves themselves envied mortality, and that should be pretty telling. __________________ Music alone proves the existence of God.

01-13-2002, 10:44 AM	#4
Voronwe Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Gondolin Posts: 413	It is said that even the Valar will come to envy the mortality of Men. Given the choice, I'd probably want to hold onto my mortality, not to mention my free will, which is another thing unique to Men. -Voronwe __________________ "If you would be a real seeker after truth, you must at least once in your life doubt, as far as possible, all things." -- René Descartes

01-13-2002, 12:35 PM	#5
red Spirit of Mischief Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Land of the free and home of the brave Posts: 368	It is not the living forever I envy as much as the preservation of the body. I don't want an old, useless, wrinkled, ugly body no matter how keen my mind still is. I'd give up mortality any day to keep my body the way it is. I'm with the Elves. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] -red __________________ "Cats are like greatness: Some people are born into cat-loving families, some achieve cats, and some have cats thrust upon them." -William H. A. Carr

01-13-2002, 01:58 PM	#6
Lush Fair and Cold Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the big onion Posts: 1,803	Thing is, the great cliche stands true here; the grass is always greener on the other side. As for me, immortality and the prospect of keeping my wonderful body just the way it is now (wink wink-Red) is very attractive, but the soul is immortal already, and that's enough for me. __________________ ~The beginning is the word and the end is silence. And in between are all the stories. This is one of mine~

01-13-2002, 09:28 AM	#3
Quelledeloth Guest Posts: n/a	Sure the Elves envied the mortality of men, however men also envied the immortality of elves

01-13-2002, 02:11 PM	#7
Turambar Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Non-Stop Home Posts: 859	Voronwë - did the elves not have free will? [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] __________________ In the upper air the fireflies move more slowly.

01-13-2002, 04:22 PM	#8
Voronwe Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Gondolin Posts: 413	Elves didn't have free will in the sense that Men did, since their fate (and the fate of the Valar in Ea) was already determined by the music of the Ainur. But this doesn't necessarily mean that every little detail of an elf's life was already mapped out. They just didn't have the power to shape their own destiny in the way that men did. -Voronwe __________________ "If you would be a real seeker after truth, you must at least once in your life doubt, as far as possible, all things." -- René Descartes

01-15-2002, 07:30 AM	#10
Ghâshgûl Pile O'Bones Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Kehl, Germany Posts: 25	Personnally I prefer beeing mortal. Well, I would not like to die right now, but I think there will be a time (perhaps when I'm 80?) when I will say "It was a good life, but now it's enough, I'm tired". Living on in this world for thousands and millions and billions and gazillions of years sounds a little worrying. I also believe in an immortal soul (hoping that the memories on my mortal life here will not expire after 40 days), but even if I did not, I would not want to live for an infinite time. Well, I admit: The prospect that Lush keeps her wonderful body just the way it is now sounds very tempting... [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Ghâshgûl [ January 15, 2002: Message edited by: Ghâshgûl ] __________________ Hobbits and Orks, Elves and Ringwraiths, Gandalf and Saruman, Aragorn and Sauron, Lorién and Mordor, Peace and War, Light and Darkness, White and Black, Good and Evil - did you really think it was so simple?

01-15-2002, 02:31 PM	#11
Perethil Pile O'Bones Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Istanbul, Turkey Posts: 21	It is better to live a short life, but not live within the boundries and shape my own destiny, than to live till the end of time but be carried by fate. Im with the mortals.

01-15-2002, 04:14 PM	#12
Orald Shadow of Malice Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: right behind you Posts: 843	Voronwë, are you saying that if Fate and Destiny exist then free will cannot? I suppose that if someone were to remove his or herself from time, he or she could map out a destiny for each person completely dependent on their choices and where each choice led them. You see if you were to look back on someones life, could you not say that they were destined to do that? I say you could, even if free will exists. As for my fate, I choose the mortality of the ever inscrutable man.

01-15-2002, 04:53 PM	#13
Voronwe Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Gondolin Posts: 413	I don't think free will and fate are neccessarily incompatible. If fate only determines certain events which are inescapable, then there would be plenty of room for free will to fill in the gaps. On the other hand, if fate determines each and every moment from the beginning of time to the end, then I find it hard to see how one can make choices that are truely free. I maybe used the term 'free will' a little loosely in my previous posts. The elves probably had a kind of free will, in that they had the power to make choices, but couldn't in the end escape fate. Men, though, were truely free, not being bound by fate. -Voronwë __________________ "If you would be a real seeker after truth, you must at least once in your life doubt, as far as possible, all things." -- René Descartes

01-15-2002, 08:38 PM	#15
Alkanoonion Spirit in Eriador Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Adelaide Posts: 398	I would love to live forever, I don't want to be old and useless. __________________ In prosperity our friends know us; in adversity we know our friends.

01-15-2002, 08:39 PM	#16
Turambar Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Non-Stop Home Posts: 859	The Very Secret Diary is HILARIOUS. My fave part is Days 13-19 but it's all very funny. __________________ In the upper air the fireflies move more slowly.

01-15-2002, 09:00 PM	#17
Lush Fair and Cold Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the big onion Posts: 1,803	I'd hate to inspire the wrath of those higher up on the food-chain by going off topic, but Legolas' Secret Diary is HYSTERICAL as well, enjoy, but not unless you are very offended by gay humor, or humor in general. I have no idea who wrote this stuff, but you have to admit, it's kind of nice to be able to giggle about the characters every once in a while. __________________ ~The beginning is the word and the end is silence. And in between are all the stories. This is one of mine~

01-16-2002, 02:20 AM	#18
Eowyn of Ithilien Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Australia Posts: 277	what if fate is simply our future mapped out in accordance to what our free will would dictate??? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ But of bliss and glad life there is little to be said, before it ends; as works fair and wonderful, while still they endure for eyes to see, are their own record, and only when they are in peril or broken for ever do they pass into song.

01-17-2002, 06:52 AM	#19
Ghâshgûl Pile O'Bones Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Kehl, Germany Posts: 25	(Lush, when you go off subject, I'll go with you...) I also like Aragorns diary... "Still not king..." lol Ghâshgûl [ January 17, 2002: Message edited by: Ghâshgûl ] __________________ Hobbits and Orks, Elves and Ringwraiths, Gandalf and Saruman, Aragorn and Sauron, Lorién and Mordor, Peace and War, Light and Darkness, White and Black, Good and Evil - did you really think it was so simple?

01-18-2002, 04:36 PM	#20
Aralaithiel Ghost Eldaran Queen Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A remote mountain in Valinor Posts: 353	Ah yes, the eternal struggle of wanting what the other side has! Both mortality & immortality have their respective pros & cons. I would choose immortality. I agree with the post that fate & free will are not necessarily imcompatible. We are all on a path that has been decided for us, but we do get to pick & choose the way we follow that path. There are such things as side-tracks off the beaten path (don't ya love cliches?) of life, but we all end up on one path that has been decided for us. I do think that the elves has a sort of free will. I can't think of it right off hand, but in the Silmarillion there are some examples. I will now go & see if I can find them - or re-read the whole thing & see if I am not mistaken! __________________ A lelyat, wen! (Quenya Elvish for "You go, girl!"