Immortality and the sons of Elrond

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Dior is a very interesting case, especially since it could be argued that Luthien was already mortal when she and Beren actually married. But it's plain that the Valar hadn't really thought things through when Earendil turned up! (Unfortunately Dior was only 36 when he was killed, so we have no idea whether he had the "youth of the Eldar" or not).


According to Manwe in QS (1937):

Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them; but in this matter the power of doom is given to me. This is my decree: to Earendil and to Elwing and to their sons shall be given leave each to choose freely under which kindred they shall be judged.

This would imply that Dior and his sons were accounted Men. But would the folk of Doriath have accepted such a short-lived king, even if he was Luthien's son?

I do find it interesting that the choice was explicitly given to Earendil's sons, Elrond and Elros, and that that choice was extended to Elrond's children- but not to Elros'!

[Galin]

And if the QS idea is held to be true, then Arwen, Elladan and Elrohir are automatically mortals to my mind... that is, if Elrond or Elros chooses immortality here he will yet have automatically mortal children with respect to death (as they will still have some measure of mortal blood).

My theory is that the Children of Elrond must at least be extended the choice in order to make Elrond's choice fair to begin with (and the same with Elros had he chosen an immortal fate).

In this way, no person with mortal blood (in any measure) is automatically withheld from a mortal death -- release from the Circles of the World and time. And no children are automatically sundered from their parent if that parent chooses immortality.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

And if the QS idea is held to be true, then Arwen, Elladan and Elrohir are automatically mortals to my mind... that is, if Elrond or Elros chooses immortality here he will yet have automatically mortal children with respect to death

Well, yes: but of course in 1937 Elrond's children hadn't been invented yet! And Arwen having a Choice to make became an essential element in the strory of Aragorn as it developed.

I think therefore that your 'revised rule' pretty well sums up what Tolkien came to believe as a result of the LR, modifying what had been a firm rule before he started it.

Back to the Dioscuri: it's interesting that to the extent they are described, they do not "pass" as Elves: "And have you marked the brethren Elladan and Elrohir? Less somber is their gear than the others', and they are fair and gallant as Elven-lords; and that is not to be wondered at in the sons of Elrond of Rivendell."

And then there is the passage from a draft of Appendix A, describing their role at the Field of Celebrant: "In the forefront of the charge they saw two great horsemen, clad in grey, unlike all the others, and the Orcs fled before them." I don't want to lean too heavily on a single adjective, but one could infer that if they were "great" even among the tall Northmen, that the brethren were quite large persons indeed, more "Mannish" than "Elvish" in build, if you will.


By the way, if anyone cares, Arwen and her brothers were not half-elves, but 78.125-percent-elves:

18.75% Men (3/16)
17.1875% Noldor (11/64)
7.8125% Vanyar (5/64)
53.125% Teleri (17/32)
3.125% Maiar (1/32)

Elrond himself was a nine-sixteenths-elf.

(I didn't distinguish between Sindar and Teleri of Aman because of Celeborn's uncertain status)

[Mithalwen]

Ah but don't forget that Legolas was comparing them to a bunch of hairy Dunedain rangers dressed for the worst that the wild could throw at them, and with the noted height of their maternal grandparents they were unlikely to be short by the measure of the elves - however I expect the mannish blood may well have made them more strapping than the average elf... though this now leads me to envisage Arwen as a jolly-hockeysticks Betjemanesque heroine...

[William Cloud Hicklin]

though this now leads me to envisage Arwen as a jolly-hockeysticks Betjemanesque heroine...

.........complete with twin-potlid-breastplate, horned helmet and spear....

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I must disagree. She had made her choice, and as Galin pointed out earlier, she was then bound to mortality. The quote Galin gave of her response to Aragorn's premise that she could "repent and go to the Havens" says not that no ships were available for her to board, but that none would bear her, and that she must abide by her decision, not that she merely wished to do so.

As I read the story Arwen hasn't aged when Aragorn dies. Although I don't think so, it is of course possible she would have died a natural death from old age had she carried on - remember Elros lived unwearied for around 500 years - but to me that's a moot question. As is talking about the 'legal' situation regarding her Valinor entry VISA, although I appreciate WCH's and Galin's efforts on the subject.

The choice of Arwen, as an descendant of Eärendil, is of course to share the fate of mortal Men and leave the circles of the world, or to sail West with her father and remain bound to Arda until the end. When she gives her heart to Aragorn, she is taking the former path, which I think in practice means that when she comes face to face with Mandos sooner or later he will send her soul to where Men go (Heaven, I suppose), and not the Halls of Waiting. Within the context of the story, the idea of Arwen repenting of her choice and begging for admittance on a ship heading West, thus ie abandoning Aragorn, or just living on in Middle earth, perhaps joining Maglor in his wailing, is preposterous. We may speculate about many what ifs, but in the light of Tolkien's (in-book) idealised view of love and marriage, there were only two options for Arwen: to join Aragorn in life and death or to remain with her father and pass West. The technicalities of the choice and its consequences beyond this is speculative and in the end without import - well, apart from the continuation of this thread, which certainly has a value of its own.

Edit: Jeez, the mental picture of Arwen the Warrior Princess is not a pretty one haha.

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Back to the Dioscuri: it's interesting that to the extent they are described, they do not "pass" as Elves: "And have you marked the brethren Elladan and Elrohir? Less somber is their gear than the others', and they are fair and gallant as Elven-lords; and that is not to be wondered at in the sons of Elrond of Rivendell.")

I think you could easily interpret that description the opposite way. They stand out from the Rangers, but the Rangers are not Elves. The description says Elladan and Elrohir are "fair and gallant as Elven-lords" - that certainly sounds as if they look like Elves to me!

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

.........complete with twin-potlid-breastplate, horned helmet and spear....

Oh William, you certainly picked that ball up and ran with it... taking the merely formidably athletic to the positively Wagnerian... which may be a valid source but scary.....After all, the standards of beauty in ME may have been rather more Rubenesque than usally supposed. Not that I have a problem with that in itself only with the extrapolated mental image of Luthien dancing for Beren looking like one of the corp de ballet in Fantasia *snork*.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

and they are fair and gallant as Elven-lords

Well, I would read that as implying that they are being compared to Elf-lords, which implies that they are not, in fact, Elf-lords.

On Rubenesque heroines- I doubt it. One of T's favorite adjectives for good-lookin' wimmen, besides "fair," is "slender:" Goldberry, Galadriel, Eowyn and p'raps others all get the label. And Luthien is "lissome", which can be taken as the antonym of "hippo."

[Mithalwen]

Oh I know ... and of course Luthien is so linked with Edith who was very far from being even betjemanesque...
but some how my mind's eye is refusing to expect the overwhelming textual and contextual evidence ... my bad...

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Well, I would read that as implying that they are being compared to Elf-lords, which implies that they are not, in fact, Elf-lords.

It's a description by one of the characters, not by the narrator. The character then says "and that is not to be wondered at in the sons of Elrond". Which I interpret as saying "Silly me, of course they look like elf-lords, they are the sons of the Lord of Rivendell himself". I don't think it is ever suggested that Elrond himself looks more like a Man than an Elf.

I suspect that not all Elves necessarily have a noble and gallant bearing - I liken Elladan and Elrohir to Elves like Gil-Galad and Glorfindel. Elves who are handy with a sword and a spear and also born to rule.

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

I do find it interesting that the choice was explicitly given to Earendil's sons, Elrond and Elros, and that that choice was extended to Elrond's children- but not to Elros'!

Didn't Elros already choose his childrens' fate anyway? I don't think that Elros' offspring could chose whether or not they could be mortal or immortal. They were just mortal men with really LONG lifespans.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Didn't Elros already choose his childrens' fate anyway? I don't think that Elros' offspring could chose whether or not they could be mortal or immortal.

Well, that's rather the point: Elros' children had no choice, but Elrond's did. Why? The only explanation I can think of is the priority given to the "Gift of Men." (Of course, Elros' children lived as and among Men, and were themselves more than three-quarters human, whereas the reverse was true of Arwen and her brothers).

[Galin]

Didn't Elros already choose his childrens' fate anyway?

I would say both Elros and Elrond's children had the same choice in potential (both are 'potential immortals' for example), but only the children of the immortal need be given the choice.

The mortal (once chosen) will essentially restore the natural order of Eru without sundering child from parent, and the special dispensation given to Earendil and Elwing need not be extended yet again in this circumstance.

[Mithadan]

I do not think that Elros' children had the option of choosing to be numbered among the Elves. Elros chose to be a mortal Man and his wife was mortal as well. The children of Elros were Men and thus could not be denied the Gift of Iluvatar. I do not think that a residual percentage of Elvish blood would change this conclusion.

The Half-Elven created a dilemna for the Valar, which was resolved by a hard and fast rule, at least for those who chose mortality. The applicable quote is

"in this matter the power of doom is given to me. The peril that he ventured for love of the Two Kindreds shall not fall upon Earendil, nor shall it fall upon Elwing his wife who entered into peril for love of him; but they shall not walk again ever among Elves or Men in the Outer Lands. And this is my decree concerning them: to Earendil and to Elwing, and to their sons, shall be given leave each to choose freely to which kindred their fates shall be joined, and under which kindred they shall be judged.

Earendil, Elwing, Elrond and Elros had this choice.

Which circles back to the original question. Did Elladan and Elrohir have this choice as well? Manwe's speech, quoted above suggests the answer here is no. The quotes attributed to Elrond, above, and the excerpts from Letters, suggest the answer may be yes. Arwen's statements are equivocal; she says that she was granted the choice of Luthien, which is a different matter altogether. Yet even Elrond's statement is somewhat equivocal. He says 'That so long as I abide here, she shall live with the youth of the Eldar (...) And when I depart, she shall go with me, if she so chooses.' While this hints at the existence of a choice, it may be that all he means is that she is an Elf and whether or not she departs with him into the West, she remains an Elf.

If we accept Manwe's statement, Elrond's children have no choice. Elrond's decision is binding upon them. If this is the case, maybe only Arwen was granted the choice of Luthien. Given Elrond's grief at their parting "that should endure beyond the ends of the world", it seems clear that she is granted leave to live the life of a mortal Man. She did not merely die of grief as an Elf. Perhaps this is the simplest answer; Elladan, Elrohir and Arwen lacked the choice of the Half-Elven and Arwen's was a special case.

[Aiwendil]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

Manwe's speech, quoted above suggests the answer here is no.

But unless I'm much mistaken, that quote comes from QS37, which was written before Elladan, Elrohir, and Arwen were invented.

I think that in light of that fact, it's much easier to suppose that Manwe's speech is to be amended than that Tolkien's statement in Letters was blatantly false.

[Mithadan]

Manwe's speech is from the Silmarillion, as published for what it's worth. I have not checked any of Tolkien's post-LoTR drafts to see if this speech appears.

This is, of course, the difficulty in attempting to analyse this and many other issues in any of Tolkien's writings beyond the Hobbit and LoTR. We can drive ourselves crazy arguing about whether CT's Silmarillion is in any way "authoratative', and what JRRT intended and when.

Letter 153 dates to 1954 and discusses Elladan and Elrohir delaying their choice and attributes the choice to all of the Half-Elven. This Letter also states that Elros' choice was irrevocable and binding upon his descendants, by the way. Letter 211, from 1958, states that the names Elladan and Elrohir both signify "Elf+Man".

From these references, we can make predictions about what Tolkien may ultimately have decided, but even then there is no certainty. Until a final version hits the bookshelves, he could change his mind, as he often did. The problem is he never published the Silmarillion or any of the related works found in Unfinished Tales and HoME. And the last thing I want to do now is try to decide what is "canon".

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

I do not think that Elros' children had the option of choosing to be numbered among the Elves.

If this is in response to my recent post I must emphasize my 'in potential'

(...) Which circles back to the original question. Did Elladan and Elrohir have this choice as well?

'But to the Children of Elrond a choice was also appointed...' (Appendix A). Tolkien's letter seems in agreement with this much, that they too had a choice.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Manwe's speech is from the Silmarillion, as published for what it's worth. I have not checked any of Tolkien's post-LoTR drafts to see if this speech appears.

And taken direct from QS (1937)- Tolkien never returned to the Voyage of Earendil post-LR (save some cursory name-changes).

The work of the Fifties only got as far as Turin's death (+Hurin in Brethil).

[Galin]

And WCH means the speech in the constructed Silmarillion is direct from the 1937 Silmarillion (Manwe's speech), but not exactly, as (for example) the part I refer to (and WCH quoted)...

'Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them...'

... is not in the 1977 version.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

You're right, Galin, I should have checked. But in that case, CT left off that bit precisely because he deemed it to conflict with what JRRT later wrote re Elrond's children.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

You're right, Galin, I should have checked. But in that case, CT left off that bit precisely because he deemed it to conflict with what JRRT later wrote re Elrond's children.

Oops. Was this from a private communication?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

No, it's just my surmise: but I reckon it would be seen as 'superseded' after Elrond's children were invented and an extended Choice into the third generation added.

[Galin]

Oh, OK.

I'm sure Christopher Tolkien had his reasons, but maybe they were something other than having to do with Elrond's children? maybe Elrond's children would have been 'default mortal' (by having some measure of mortal blood), but yet they had other doom extended to them?

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Well, that's rather the point: Elros' children had no choice, but Elrond's did. Why? The only explanation I can think of is the priority given to the "Gift of Men." (Of course, Elros' children lived as and among Men, and were themselves more than three-quarters human, whereas the reverse was true of Arwen and her brothers).

Or the other question is why in fact would Elros have chosen mortality. Seems like a bad deal when two Ages of Men later Elrond is attending parties and listening to Bilbo's verse in the comfort of Rivendell, while Elros his brother had been dead for 6,000 years or so.

Which brings me back to a point that may bear on Elrohir and Elladan's decision (assuming they had one). Why would they choose to be mortal? In the case of both Arwen and Luthien, it seems to be a case where love for a mortal man is stronger than the desire for immortality, but it is not particularly clear what the attraction for Elrohir and Elladan would be. Although the same could be said for Elros...

It is not stated what happened to the two brothers, but it seems that they would have been mentioned somewhere in the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen if they were still around 120 years after Elrond left. The same might be said of Celeborn, however, since one would think that Arwen might seek out her grandfather at this point. The implication is that all of the High Elves were gone by this time...

[CSteefel]

On the subject of Arwen's death (or the reason for it), I take it as being similar to the acceptance of death by Aragorn himself, and his Numenorean ancestors. They because weary with life and gave it up at some level willingly, that is, without descending into decrepitude and senility. It is said in The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen that initially

She was not weary of her days, and thus she tasted the bitterness of mortality...

but that she quickly became so once Aragorn died, since

the light of her eyes was quenched, and it seemed to her people that she had become cold and grey as nightfall in winter...

Interestingly, the situation seems a little different with respect to Luthien, whose death seems to have been accelerated by the fact that she held one of the Simaril...

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Galin

Oh, OK. But I'm not sure why it need be superseded. Can't Elrond's children be 'default mortal' by having some measure of mortal blood? Unless (as happened) other doom was also extended to them.

If Arwen were mortal by default then the doom of Luthien is irrelevant. She is mortal, falls in love with a mortal. No big deal. The terrible doom would be Elrond's (as was presumably Mithrellas) to be the immortal parent of mortal children.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

If Arwen were mortal by default then the doom of Luthien is irrelevant. She is mortal, falls in love with a mortal. No big deal. The terrible doom would be Elrond's (as was presumably Mithrellas) to be the immortal parent of mortal children.

Well, I mean mortal by default unless (as I say) '(as happened) other doom was also extended to them.' -- meaning they would have been mortal, just like Elros and Elrond would have been mortal, but other doom was granted to them. Manwe said:

'Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them...'

But he adds: 'in this matter the power of doom is given to me. This is my decree: to Earendil and to Elwing and to their sons...' which appears to say he is given power in this matter to grant a doom other than that which would normally occur (both Earendil and Elwing were 'potential immortals' once given the choice, and as it happens, they both chose immortality). Much later Tolkien writes (albeit in draft):

2300 '(...) These children were three parts Elven-race, but the doom spoken at their birth was that they should live even as Elves so long as their father remained in Middle-earth; but if he departed they should have then the choice either to pass over the Sea with him, or to become mortal, if they remained behind.'

OK, they had some measure of mortal blood anyway, and should have been mortal by default -- but they were not mortal or immortal by default by virtue of being given a choice -- and had they not been granted other doom they would have been automatically sundered from their parents in fate (and note that all these beings with mortal blood are not being withheld the gift of God).

In any event we have Tolkien-published text that all three children were given the choice. So, for myself, I see no necessary conflict here (so far! that is), and have been submitting the idea that if Manwe's speech was still in play, then Elros' children were also default mortal -- but they need not be given the choice, for his choice (and he must be free to choose mortality or immortality without notable constraint in the first place, to have a true and fair enough choice to begin with), once made, meant that they would not be automatically sundered from their parents while (basically) the natural order of Eru was restored in that line -- the 'natural order' as illuminated by Manwe (QS, Lost Road version) before he pronounced that he could yet give special dispensation in the specific matter at hand.

And the power to do so, I think, must have come from Eru.

[CSteefel]

Rather than being "mortal by default", the statement seems to be that they have the life of the Eldar by default based on what Elrond says in Appendix A:

But there will be no choice before Arwen, my beloved, unless you, Aragorn, Arathorn's son, come between us and bring one of us, you or me, to a bitter parting beyond the end of the world.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by CSteefel

Or the other question is why in fact would Elros have chosen mortality. Seems like a bad deal when two Ages of Men later Elrond is attending parties and listening to Bilbo's verse in the comfort of Rivendell, while Elros his brother had been dead for 6,000 years or so.

Which brings me back to a point that may bear on Elrohir and Elladan's decision (assuming they had one). Why would they choose to be mortal? In the case of both Arwen and Luthien, it seems to be a case where love for a mortal man is stronger than the desire for immortality, but it is not particularly clear what the attraction for Elrohir and Elladan would be. Although the same could be said for Elros...

There is evidence in the books that immortality can be a two-edged sword. Consider the speech given to the Númenórean King Tar-Atanamir by Elves:

(Elves) cannot escape, and are bound to this world, never to leave it so long as it lasts, for its life is theirs. And you are punished for the rebellion of Men, you say, in which you had small part, and so it is that you die. But that was not at first appointed for a punishment. Thus you escape, and leave the world, and are not bound to it, in hope or in weariness. Which of us therefore should envy the others?

Coming from the Elves themselves, that would seem to indicate at least some of them are not terribly enamored with their life potential.
Perhaps Elros (or the sons of Elrond) would have had similar thoughts.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by CSteefel

Rather than being "mortal by default", the statement seems to be that they have the life of the Eldar by default based on what Elrond says in Appendix A:

The life of the Eldar until the choice is made, that's how I would put it -- at least with respect to fate, which is the main concern.

'But there will be no choice before Arwen, my beloved, unless you, Aragorn, Arathorn's son, come between us and bring one of us, you or me, to a bitter parting beyond the end of the world.'

As I read it this can easily mean that Arwen will have no reason to choose mortality -- in other words, Elrond knows his daughter, and thus knows she will likely pass Over Sea with him if Aragorn were not in the picture. Aragorn has just said (directly before this) that the choice must soon be laid on your children, and Elrond responded 'Truly'... and then goes on to say the part you quoted. This fits with the earlier statement in Appendix A.

Arwen is not default immortal nor default mortal by virtue of the choice -- and Luthien is an exception. Arwen's choice merely echoes that of Luthien's, and she would have arguably chosen an Elven fate had not Aragorn been in the picture (again, which is what I glean from the quote you posted).

Theoretically 'a mortal' of course, but as the history turned out, specifically Aragorn and Beren.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

There is evidence in the books that immortality can be a two-edged sword. Consider the speech given to the Númenórean King Tar-Atanamir by Elves:

Coming from the Elves themselves, that would seem to indicate at least some of them are not terribly enamored with their life potential.
Perhaps Elros (or the sons of Elrond) would have had similar thoughts.

Interesting perspective.

Otherwise, I might have guessed that there was something about the Elven life that left the individuals disconnected--Elros, for example, was offered a chance to rule a kingdom. The argument against would be that Elrond was able to found and lead Rivendell for thousands of years, although at the end of the Third Age certainly the Elves were marginalized. Perhaps initially the important role for Elrond beyond that of a mostly spiritual and scholarly life was less clear. For Arwen, it would also be a choice between going to the Undying Lands or having some part in ruling a kingdom of men. Even before the First Age, we see Galadriel getting antsy to strike out on her own and rule a kingdom, which is one of the explanations for her leaving for Middle Earth in the first place.

[Galin]

Well, it's a mortal perspective that sometimes puts the Elvish longevity ('immortality' of the Elves) above the gift of God to Men, but also, there is the idea that the gift will come to be envied by the Elves, and 'which as Time wears even the Powers shall envy' (from The Silmarillion, chapter Of The Beginning Of Days).

In letter 156 (1954) Tolkien wrote that in the view of the myth, Death, or the mere shortness of human life-span, is not a punishment for the Fall, and: 'The attempt to escape it is wicked because 'unnatural', and silly because death in that sense is the Gift of God (envied by the Elves), release from the weariness of Time.'

And in 1958, draft letter 212:

'Mortality, that is a short life-span having no relation to the life of Arda, is spoken of as the given nature of Men: the Elves called it the Gift of Iluvatar (God). But it must be remembered that mythically these tales are Elf-centered, not anthropocentric (...) This is therefore an 'Elvish' view, and does not necessarily have anything to say for or against such beliefs as the Christian that 'death' is not part of human nature, but a punishment for sin (rebellion), a result of the 'Fall'. It should be regarded as an Elvish perception of what death -- not being tied to the 'circles of the world' - should now become for Men, however it arose. A divine 'punishment' is also a divine 'gift', if accepted, since its object is ultimate blessing, and the supreme inventiveness of the Creator will make 'punishments' (that is changes of design) produce a good not otherwise to be attained: a 'mortal' Man has probably (an Elf would say) a higher if unrevealed destiny than a longeval one.'

In 1963 (letter 245) Tolkien says that the Elves believed death meant: 'liberation from the circles of the world', and was in this respect to them enviable. And they would point out to Men who envied them that a dread of ultimate loss, though it may be indefinitely remote, is not necessarily the easier to bear if it is in the end ineluctably certain: a burden may become heavier the longer it is borne.' And in the Athrabeth (1959-ish) Finrod does say that: 'Our hunter is slow-footed, but he never loses the trail. (...) But is it not clear that a foreseen doom long delayed is in all ways a lighter burden than one that comes soon.' And in the Commentary to the Athrabeth: 'men were, of course, in general entirely ignorant of the 'Shadow Ahead' which conditioned Elvish thought and feeling, and simply envied Elvish 'immortality'.

After the Athrabeth, Tolkien makes the point that it is a conversation, and it may have some interest for men who start with similar beliefs or assumptions to those held by the Elvish King Finrod. And it is specifically said that the Elves, observing that all Men died (a fact confirmed by Men), held that death was natural, and that the fear (plural of fea) of Men left Time sooner or later, and never returned. More generally, in 1956 Tolkien explained (letter 186):

'The real theme for me is about something much more permanent and difficult: Death and Immortality: the mystery of the love of the world in the hearts of a race 'doomed' to leave and seemingly lose it; the anguish in the hearts of a race 'doomed' not to leave it, until its whole evil-aroused story is complete.'

And in his essay on Fairy Stories: 'And lastly there is the oldest and deepest desire, the Great Escape: the Escape from Death. Fairy-stories provide many examples and modes of this (...) Fairy-stories are made by men not by fairies. The Human-stories of the elves are doubtless full of the Escape from Deathlessness.'

And it might be added too that immortality is the natural state of the Elves of course, and Tolkien refers to this also as a special gift to them: 'Immortality and Mortality being the special gifts of God to the Eruhini (...) it must be assumed that no alteration of their fundamental kind could be effected by the Valar even in one case: the cases of Luthien (and Tuor) and the position of their descendants was a direct act of God.' These last two bits of information come once again from the famed letter 153 -- I note this considering that I think, in the books, Tolkien has a least implied the Sons of Elrond chose mortality -- versus this letter where he says they delayed their choice after Elrond left, but what can I do.

[Alfirin]

A thought occurs to me, if (as some suggested) elros's children should have been elegible for "the choice" (I'm not saying they were, only that some of those on the board suggested they should have been being part elf) that shouln't Eldarion have had the same opportunity? After all he was also part elf. In fact he is slightly more elf than Elros's children they are 1/4 and he is 3/8 or more accurately very slighty more than 3/8 (the "slightly more is becuse if Aragorn is a descendent of decendent of the Kings of Numernor, he has a few dribbles of Elros's blood in him too. How much however, can't be accurety determined for a simple reason, namely that while his paternal amount could be determined ( 1/2 to the n where n is the number of gererations between Aragorn and Elros) it's a fair bet that after a few generations many of the Numernorian ancestors would have took wives who were distant relatives (Numernor didn't have a huge population, and royal/noble families tend to inbreed quite a bit anyway whether by law or custom) and who would have varios amounts of Elros's blood in them too so to get the true amount in Eldarion you'd need to know all of his female ancestors geneologies as well.)

[Mithadan]

Before letting this issue go, I want to take one last shot at making sense of the matter. Rather than trying to interpret snippets of text, I'd like to look at the issue dispassionately based upon lineage and parentage, as, presumably, the Valar would have needed to look at the issue when they decided it at the end of the First Age.

Beren was a Man. Luthien, despite her lineage by birth, received leave to be counted as mortal and returned to Beleriand with Beren... "for a time". Both were mortal. Dior was a Man, not a Half-Elf. Tuor and Idril begot Earendil, a true Half-Elf. Dior wedded Nimloth, an Elf, and begot Elwing, a Half-Elf. Elrond and Elros, sons of Earendil and Elwing were true mixed bloods, and were given leave to choose. Elros chose to be a Man and married... whatever her name was, a Man, and begot Mannish children and descendents. Elrond, who chose to be an Elf, married Celebrian, an Elf. Their Children are... Elves. Arwen is given the choice of Luthien and chooses to be numbered among the Men. Elladan and Elrohir have no such choice, they are Elves.

Pick the logic apart people!

[William Cloud Hicklin]

The hypothesis (that E&E are simply Elves and have no choice) founders on the data:

These children were three parts Elven-race, but the doom spoken at their birth was that they should live even as Elves so long as their father remained in Middle-earth; but if he departed they should have then the choice either to pass over the Sea with him, or to become mortal, if they remained behind.

But to the children of Elrond a choice was also appointed: to pass with him from the circles of the world; or if they remained, to become mortal and die in Middle-earth.

'... and the choice must soon be laid on your (Elrond's) children, to part either with you or with Middle-earth'

The end of (Elrond's) sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told: they delay their choice, and remain for a while.

Moreover, Manwe's declaration cited earlier, although admittedly written before Elrond's children were invented, noetheless undergirds a fundamental dogma of Tolkien's 'theology:' the Gift of Men can never be taken away. Elrond's children, since they have Mannish blood, would by default be Men but for their special dispensation; and in all events they must have the option of becoming fully Men.

It doesn't matter that E&E are 78% Elvish by descent- the Mannish element in their lineage cannot be ignored or denied, save by their own free choice.

[Galin]

I agree with WCH on that -- and there's another letter too, where Tolkien states that Arwen was not an Elf. But The Letters of JRR Tolkien is proving a mixed bag for me on this issue in general. Also, I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that the two mentions (and only mentions?) that confirm Elladan and Elrohir remained behind after Elrond sailed were only added to the revised edition of The Lord of the Rings in the 1960s.

Not that that proves anything of course, but if true might give a better idea of the chronology anyway.

[Mithadan]

One last post to this thread, then I will say no more on this issue. The problem I have here is not that I necessarily disagree with the textual analyses that have been ably set forth by various members here. Rather, my issue is simply that one of the great appeals that Middle Earth has for me is its internal inconsistency, and here is one point where it is inconsistent. The children of Elrond and Elros all genetically possess elements of Mannish blood, assuming the "science of genetics" bears any real relevancy to the interpretation of mythology. To me, this means they should all be treated the same unless there is a good reason to the contrary.

The analysis I set forth in my last post explains the state of matters as we see them in LoTR. The problem is that the solution I outline is not what Tolkien appears to have settled upon. Rather, he treats the children of Elros and Elrond differently because... well just because. The importance of the Eru's gift cannot be the answer for why similarly situated persons are treated differently; Elrond's children have less Mannish blood than those of Elros, but based upon the analyses of multiple posters here, the presence of any Mannish blood is significant.

I suggest that genetics and the presence of physical Mannish blood does not determine this issue, else both sets of cousins would have possessed the choice regardless of the choice of their sires. Further Tolkien, in Laws and Customs Among the Eldar makes it clear that "[f]rom the beginning the chief difference between Elves and Men lay in the fate and nature of their spirits" The fëar of Men and Elves determine their fundamental nature, not their hroar or bodies. The fëar of Elves "far excelled over the spirits of Men in power over that 'raiment', even from the first days protecting their bodies from many ills and assaults (such as disease), and healing them swiftly of injuries, so that they recovered from wounds that would have proved fatal to Men."

It is the fëar that determine the nature of Men and Elves, not their bodies or their blood. When Half-Elven make their choice, it is a change to the spirits not to their bodies. So genetics has nothing to do with the effect of a Half-Elf's choice over the nature of their offspring. Elros' fëa was mortal as was his wife's and, accordingly, his children's spirits were Mannish. Elrond and Celebrian's fëar were Elvish. Why should the spirits of their children be otherwise. This is the problem I have here.

[Aiwendil]

Mithadan wrote:

The problem is that the solution I outline is not what Tolkien appears to have settled upon. Rather, he treats the children of Elros and Elrond differently because... well just because. The importance of the Eru's gift cannot be the answer for why similarly situated persons are treated differently; Elrond's children have less Mannish blood than those of Elros, but based upon the analyses of multiple posters here, the presence of any Mannish blood is significant.

I disagree, and would respectfully suggest that your argument here misses the point of the 'Gift of Eru' argument. You ask why Elrond's children are treated differently from Elros's; in other words, why is there an asymmetry between the cousins? The answer is that it's because there's an asymmetry between Men and Elves. Elros's children "ought" to be human, because both of their parents are. Elrond's children "ought" to be Elves, because both of their parents are. But the rule is that the Gift of Eru cannot be forcibly taken away from anyone with any Mannish heritage. So Elrond's children must be given the choice. Elros's children are not given the choice because there is no analogous rule to the effect that one with Elvish heritage cannot have immortality taken away. They have Elvish blood, but due to the asymmetry of the Gift of Eru, Elvish blood does not necessitate the option of immortality, whereas Mannish blood does necessitate the option of mortality.

One can perhaps dispute that account by calling into question the validity of Tolkien's statements in Letters and elsewhere, but I do not think one can make the charge of inconsistency in it. It coheres and it agrees with what is said in LotR.

It is the fëar that determine the nature of Men and Elves, not their bodies or their blood. When Half-Elven make their choice, it is a change to the spirits not to their bodies. So genetics has nothing to do with the effect of a Half-Elf's choice over the nature of their offspring. Elros' fëa was mortal as was his wife's and, accordingly, his children's spirits were Mannish. Elrond and Celebrian's fëar were Elvish. Why should the spirits of their children be otherwise. This is the problem I have here.

Well, one might first of all note that Tolkien stressed that there is a strong connection between a fea and its hroa. One can influence the other, and vice versa. And clearly the differences between Men and Elves were not solely spiritual.

But as for your question - is there necessarily anything problematic with the fea of the child differing from the fear of the parents? Certainly, there's no logical impossibility involved there. And, apparently, Tolkien didn't feel that there was a metaphysical impossibility either.

There's also an interesting supposition behind your argument here: that there are Elvish fear and there are Mannish fear, and that Elvishness or Mannishness is an intrinsic, perhaps unalterable, attribute of the spirit. I think we must question to what extent this is true. Yes, human spirits leave Arda after death while Elvish spirits do not; but does this imply any particular difference between the two classes of spirits themselves, beyond the difference in their ultimate fates? It seems plain, at least, that the Elvishness or Mannishness of a fea could be changed: Luthien provides an unambiguous case of an Elvish spirit becoming Mannish. When this happened, Luthien's soul, her will, her consciousness did not change. She had the same fea before and after; only its fate was different.

I suggest that a fea itself is not intrinsically Elvish or Mannish, though in most cases a particular fate is attached to it the moment it enters the world, due to its parentage. But that fate could be altered (as in Luthien's case); and in the case of Elrond's children, to whom the choice was granted even before they were born, neither fate would be prescribed to the fea when it first entered the world.

[Mithadan]

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