Balrogs vs Elves - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

the real findorfin · 06-11-2002, 09:44 AM

How could Ecthelion and Glorfindel have possibly killed Balrogs. (even with eagle assistance)

1. Gandalf couldn't even do it in Moria. Although he had diminished powers he was still more powerful than an elf.

2. Balrogs are still Maia so how can they die. Like sauron they can only lose their forms so where do they go.

Leto · 06-11-2002, 09:59 AM

Gandalf did defeat the Balrog, though he lost his body in process. Glorfindel in the first age also was slain, even though he defeated the Balrog. Balrogs have physical form, just like the Istari...so they can be slain. And it seems that Eru does not allow those evil maiar to return to Middle Earth again, once they lose their form. It is His will that allows Gandalf to come back. The spirits of the balrogs are either diminished so much as to be non-existent...or they are sent to the void, imprisoned with their master, Morgoth, until the end of days.
Sauron did not leave middle earth when he was slain, because his 'form' was effectively the ring. As long as it existed, his power and will was present. Once it was destroyed, and we see his great black spirit rise up to be blown wawy by the north wind...we can only imagine he has gone the way of those balrogs, either diminished or imprisoned with Morgoth.

Mornie Alantie · 06-11-2002, 12:08 PM

Amen Leto

One thing is that Gandalf Probably could of Killed the Balrog if he was 1. able to use his powers more. In the battle of wrath it doesn't say much of the balrogs putting up a good fight against the Maiar AND elves that never left Valinor. balrogs were equal or less in power with gandalf and Saruman. Although Saruman lost a lot of power thanks to Gandalf.

MallornLeaf · 06-11-2002, 03:04 PM

I agree w/ both Leto and Mornie. Gandalf merely lost his body, not his spirit. and also, Glorfindel. Illuvitar, it does seem, does not let the evil maiar spirits return to ME, if he, indeed, even lets them survive.

the real findorfin · 06-11-2002, 03:12 PM

Its just the size difference that bothers me.
Elf 6 foot...Balrog 2000 foot. and the flame and the wrath and the 'arghhh'ing vs nice blond hair.

not really contest

wouldn't the elf get burnt

TarElendil · 06-11-2002, 08:32 PM

balrogs had a physical form wreathed in "shadow,fire, and terror". How else would they have been able to weild maces and axes?
Also remember that ecthelion and glorfindel were elves of the first age and were more powerful than those of the Third Age.

TarElendil · 06-11-2002, 08:34 PM

yes the elevs would get burned.
when ecthelion and gothmog fell into the king's well a great steam arose and no water remained.

Jessica Jade · 06-11-2002, 09:29 PM

Since Gandalf was a Maia, he could take any form he wanted to, right? I wonder why he did not take a different form to fight the Balrog. Maybe it wasn't convienient, or maybe he didn't want to scare the Fellowship? Or maybe as an Istari in the Third age he wasn't allowed to change forms.

the real findorfin- Balrogs are 2000 ft tall? Where did you get that from? Very curious...because I thought i read somewhere that they are a few feet taller then men...maybe like 12 feet or something (they are man-shaped too). But I could easily be wrong.

And yes, Balrogs were much more powerful than elves! They could be slain, but that was rare and only at great price (like death). Maiar, remember, are like Valar, only less in degree. Very powerful.

TarElendil · 06-11-2002, 09:38 PM

a great many were slew in the defense of Gondolin. Fingon could have taken Gothmog if another hadnt come from behind him. You overlook the power of the Elves in the first age. Look at what Fingolfin did to Morgoth. Morgoth was the MOST POWERful BEING in Ea which included the rest of the Vala. Morgoth defeated Fingolfin because Fingolfin merely tripped. If Fingolfin could take Morgoth single handedly, I am sure he could do the same with any of Morgoth's servants.

obloquy · 06-11-2002, 09:41 PM

How about you guys actually read some Tolkien?

Jessica Jade · 06-11-2002, 09:45 PM

Quote:

How about you guys actually read some Tolkien?

errrr...what exactly are you implying, obloquy? That we all sound like clueless idiots who've never picked up LOTR or the Sil? [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] If you know more about this topic, by all means, please share it, and don't shun those who know a little less than you about Tolkien! [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img] We are all Tolkien fans, what's wrong with asking questions? Geez.

TarElendil · 06-11-2002, 09:46 PM

how about refraining from your voluntary rudeness?

TarElendil · 06-11-2002, 09:49 PM

oh, and ive been reading tolkien for nearly 10 years. I dont see why you have to be so rude. A forum is a place for discussing a topic and thats exactly what we were doing.

Leto · 06-11-2002, 10:11 PM

this is getting nasty [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] JessicaJade, about the Istari..."Who would go? For they must be mighy, peers of Sauron, but must forego might, and cloth themselves in flesh so as to treat on equality and win the trust of Elves and Men. But this would imperil them, dimming their wisdom and knowledge, and confusing them with fears, cares, and wearinesses coming from the flesh." -Unfinished Tales

And for you others, who don't understand how an Elf, or an old Wizard, could defeat a Balrog that looks so mighty...remember that that is the difference between 'good' and 'evil'. Evil is full of itself, flaunting its power and intimidating, creating fear and wishing to subdue others. Good is reserved, and cares not to show off...the power of harmony with others. The greater power is that which is not seen as 'power'. "The sage wears rough clothing, and holds the jewel in his heart." This is why the Istari were forbidden to use their power the same way Sauron does.

A Elbereth, Gilthoniel!

obloquy · 06-12-2002, 09:20 AM

what's wrong is that people keep posting their stupid opinions on matters that they have no idea about. sure, that's fine in the novices room, but this is a forum for advanced discussions of middle-earth. not little kids who love elijah wood, and thus by extension, tolkien. this place used to be great. yeah, i'm a **** , but you people have ruined this place for me, so maybe you deserve it.

TarElendil · 06-12-2002, 10:51 AM

Theres no need to be rude, and i dont see why you have to insult people's intelligence of the Books.

Jessica Jade · 06-12-2002, 08:16 PM

Quote:

...not little kids who love elijah wood, and thus by extension, tolkien. this place used to be great. yeah, i'm a **** , but you people have ruined this place for me, so maybe you deserve it.

I admit that you do have a point, obloquy. I agree that it is extremely annoying when mindless, hormone-charged teeneyboppers turn the 'Downs into a place for drooling over celebrities.

However, I (and everyone else here in this thread for that matter) do not appreciate being falsely accused of contributing to the teeneybopperism. If you glance through this thread, you will notice that there has been no mention of any of the movie actors' names, nor is there any indication of how "hot" they are.
Therefore, your accusation of us ruining the Barrowdowns by talking/drooling about movie stars and by not truly liking Tolkien is neither valid nor true. Furthermore, if you're going to make an accusation, make sure that you at least have justification! If you want to carp about the issue of "celebrity-fawning", there are better places to do so, like the Movies forum. I can understand why you'd be angry about the current condition of the 'Downs, but that doesn't give you the right to be cruel.

Obviously this this has gotten a bit off topic. I hope we can get back on track.

[ June 12, 2002: Message edited by: Jessica Jade ]

Elrian · 06-12-2002, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Since Gandalf was a Maia, he could take any form he wanted to, right? I wonder why he did not take a different form to fight the Balrog. Maybe it wasn't convienient, or maybe he didn't want to scare the Fellowship? Or maybe as an Istari in the Third age he wasn't allowed to change forms.

The form of Old men is the form the Valar sent the Istari in. They could not change form and the form reduced their powers as Maia.

Not to add insult to injury but the colors really take away from the Downs atmosphere of death and decay. But that is for the Barrow Wight to decide.

the real findorfin · 06-14-2002, 06:44 AM

'Balrogs = 2000ft tall'

i meant it as an exaggeration to imply much bigger. Not literally.

However, thanks for the hieght info. I ask again (perhaps 1st time was somewhere else) why didn't balrogs change shape like other maiar did?

***The Barrow-Wight*** · 06-14-2002, 07:17 AM

Off-topic
Moderator Note:
Criticisms, espcially in THE BOOKS and THE BOOKS II, must be accompanied by supporting text. "Read the book" and "stupid opinion" are not supporting text. I expect to see no more of this type of thing, especially by our long-time members who should be quite capable of providing reasons for their opinions and presenting them in a tactful manner.

obloquy · 06-14-2002, 04:51 PM

guess i been owned.

good to see you moderating, b-w.

06-11-2002, 09:44 AM	#1
the real findorfin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Mirkwood Posts: 514	Balrogs vs Elves How could Ecthelion and Glorfindel have possibly killed Balrogs. (even with eagle assistance) 1. Gandalf couldn't even do it in Moria. Although he had diminished powers he was still more powerful than an elf. 2. Balrogs are still Maia so how can they die. Like sauron they can only lose their forms so where do they go. __________________ Legends of Middle Earth

06-11-2002, 12:08 PM	#3
Mornie Alantie Wight Join Date: May 2002 Location: Somewhere above earth cause people say i should come down to it Posts: 226	Amen Leto One thing is that Gandalf Probably could of Killed the Balrog if he was 1. able to use his powers more. In the battle of wrath it doesn't say much of the balrogs putting up a good fight against the Maiar AND elves that never left Valinor. balrogs were equal or less in power with gandalf and Saruman. Although Saruman lost a lot of power thanks to Gandalf. __________________ Instead of pepper spray, you pack a glass bottle and scream "Aiya Earendil Elenion Ancalima!!!" at muggers.

06-11-2002, 03:04 PM	#4
MallornLeaf Haunting Spirit Join Date: May 2002 Location: who cares? Posts: 76	I agree w/ both Leto and Mornie. Gandalf merely lost his body, not his spirit. and also, Glorfindel. Illuvitar, it does seem, does not let the evil maiar spirits return to ME, if he, indeed, even lets them survive. __________________ ". . . All we must decide is what to do with the time that is given us." "I pass the test, I will diminish, and go into the West, and remain Galadriel."

06-11-2002, 03:12 PM	#5
the real findorfin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Mirkwood Posts: 514	Its just the size difference that bothers me. Elf 6 foot...Balrog 2000 foot. and the flame and the wrath and the 'arghhh'ing vs nice blond hair. not really contest wouldn't the elf get burnt __________________ Legends of Middle Earth

06-11-2002, 09:29 PM	#8
Jessica Jade Wight Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Tirion upon Túna, Atlanta Posts: 154	Since Gandalf was a Maia, he could take any form he wanted to, right? I wonder why he did not take a different form to fight the Balrog. Maybe it wasn't convienient, or maybe he didn't want to scare the Fellowship? Or maybe as an Istari in the Third age he wasn't allowed to change forms. the real findorfin- Balrogs are 2000 ft tall? Where did you get that from? Very curious...because I thought i read somewhere that they are a few feet taller then men...maybe like 12 feet or something (they are man-shaped too). But I could easily be wrong. And yes, Balrogs were much more powerful than elves! They could be slain, but that was rare and only at great price (like death). Maiar, remember, are like Valar, only less in degree. Very powerful. __________________ http://www.cadential64.com The musicians had indeed laid bare the youngest, most innocent of our ideas of life, the indestructible yearning for the way things aren't and can never be. ~ Philip Roth, The Human Stain

06-11-2002, 09:59 AM	#2
Leto Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arrakis Posts: 16	Gandalf did defeat the Balrog, though he lost his body in process. Glorfindel in the first age also was slain, even though he defeated the Balrog. Balrogs have physical form, just like the Istari...so they can be slain. And it seems that Eru does not allow those evil maiar to return to Middle Earth again, once they lose their form. It is His will that allows Gandalf to come back. The spirits of the balrogs are either diminished so much as to be non-existent...or they are sent to the void, imprisoned with their master, Morgoth, until the end of days. Sauron did not leave middle earth when he was slain, because his 'form' was effectively the ring. As long as it existed, his power and will was present. Once it was destroyed, and we see his great black spirit rise up to be blown wawy by the north wind...we can only imagine he has gone the way of those balrogs, either diminished or imprisoned with Morgoth.

06-11-2002, 08:32 PM	#6
TarElendil Wight Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Armenelos Posts: 136	balrogs had a physical form wreathed in "shadow,fire, and terror". How else would they have been able to weild maces and axes? Also remember that ecthelion and glorfindel were elves of the first age and were more powerful than those of the Third Age.

06-11-2002, 08:34 PM	#7
TarElendil Wight Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Armenelos Posts: 136	yes the elevs would get burned. when ecthelion and gothmog fell into the king's well a great steam arose and no water remained.

06-11-2002, 09:38 PM	#9
TarElendil Wight Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Armenelos Posts: 136	a great many were slew in the defense of Gondolin. Fingon could have taken Gothmog if another hadnt come from behind him. You overlook the power of the Elves in the first age. Look at what Fingolfin did to Morgoth. Morgoth was the MOST POWERful BEING in Ea which included the rest of the Vala. Morgoth defeated Fingolfin because Fingolfin merely tripped. If Fingolfin could take Morgoth single handedly, I am sure he could do the same with any of Morgoth's servants.

06-11-2002, 09:41 PM	#10
obloquy Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: WA Posts: 935	How about you guys actually read some Tolkien?

06-11-2002, 09:46 PM	#12
TarElendil Wight Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Armenelos Posts: 136	how about refraining from your voluntary rudeness?

06-11-2002, 09:49 PM	#13
TarElendil Wight Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Armenelos Posts: 136	oh, and ive been reading tolkien for nearly 10 years. I dont see why you have to be so rude. A forum is a place for discussing a topic and thats exactly what we were doing.

06-11-2002, 10:11 PM	#14
Leto Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arrakis Posts: 16	this is getting nasty [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] JessicaJade, about the Istari..."Who would go? For they must be mighy, peers of Sauron, but must forego might, and cloth themselves in flesh so as to treat on equality and win the trust of Elves and Men. But this would imperil them, dimming their wisdom and knowledge, and confusing them with fears, cares, and wearinesses coming from the flesh." -Unfinished Tales And for you others, who don't understand how an Elf, or an old Wizard, could defeat a Balrog that looks so mighty...remember that that is the difference between 'good' and 'evil'. Evil is full of itself, flaunting its power and intimidating, creating fear and wishing to subdue others. Good is reserved, and cares not to show off...the power of harmony with others. The greater power is that which is not seen as 'power'. "The sage wears rough clothing, and holds the jewel in his heart." This is why the Istari were forbidden to use their power the same way Sauron does. A Elbereth, Gilthoniel!

06-12-2002, 09:20 AM	#15
obloquy Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: WA Posts: 935	what's wrong is that people keep posting their stupid opinions on matters that they have no idea about. sure, that's fine in the novices room, but this is a forum for advanced discussions of middle-earth. not little kids who love elijah wood, and thus by extension, tolkien. this place used to be great. yeah, i'm a **** , but you people have ruined this place for me, so maybe you deserve it.

06-12-2002, 10:51 AM	#16
TarElendil Wight Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Armenelos Posts: 136	Theres no need to be rude, and i dont see why you have to insult people's intelligence of the Books.

06-14-2002, 06:44 AM	#19
the real findorfin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Mirkwood Posts: 514	'Balrogs = 2000ft tall' i meant it as an exaggeration to imply much bigger. Not literally. However, thanks for the hieght info. I ask again (perhaps 1st time was somewhere else) why didn't balrogs change shape like other maiar did? __________________ Legends of Middle Earth

06-14-2002, 07:17 AM	#20
*The Barrow-Wight* Night In Wight Satin Join Date: May 2000 Posts: 4,052	Off-topic Moderator Note: Criticisms, espcially in THE BOOKS and THE BOOKS II, must be accompanied by supporting text. "Read the book" and "stupid opinion" are not supporting text. I expect to see no more of this type of thing, especially by our long-time members who should be quite capable of providing reasons for their opinions and presenting them in a tactful manner. __________________ The Barrow-Wight

06-14-2002, 04:51 PM	#21
obloquy Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: WA Posts: 935	guess i been owned. good to see you moderating, b-w.