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Old 10-09-2002, 07:05 AM   #1
lindil
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lindil has just left Hobbiton.
Sting The miscellany thread /archive

OK this is a thread for the Forum moderators to place things that are not so bad as to be thrown away, but really have no future as subject for further elaboration in the Silm forum.

I know I'm late for Spring cleaning, but in an effort to help focus the efforts on the tasks at hand I am eliminating much of the dross, filing much of the miscellany and transfering all of the inapplicable.
Please do not be :MAD: if you your 2 year old post on legolas' age is missing.
Check here first or look for it in the Books forum. Or read any one of the 46 new one's in Books or N&N.[btw he is exactly 678 yrs old, I mean was].
I really will try and preserve anything of interest here. Fell free to copy it out and place it in a new home if you wish.


I am also eliminating posts in the intro thread wherein folks signed up for the project but never showed up. If you come back and see that, worry not, you can still participate, just rejoin and be sure to email me for the passwords and such.
[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]


Please do not be offended if your post ended up here, I am engaing in a much needed housecleaning of the forum, trying to get the threads down to the essentials.

Some threads will be deleted.

Some transfered [to books mostly]

some stored here.

As I said above, if someone desperately wants to comment on something here please copy it over to the appropriate forum.

In the interests of organization, I will be keeping a tighter lid on topics here. Please keep all new threads relevant to the goals of the Forum, if in doubt put it in Books [ or wherever else you think it might go] if it truly belongs here someone will spot it and move it over.

muchos gracias.


-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

transfer #1
Author Topic: A great idea...
Keeper of Dol Goldur
Wight


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posted March 06, 2002 06:01 PM
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Sauron was called Thu throughout all the Silm and Sauron in LotR and the later works. But Thu is such an excellent name, like Olorin, Curumo, Allatar, etc..., that maybe the story should go something like this.
Celebrimbor made the three rings. They were his pride and joy. But Anatar then forged the one ring and it was revealed that he was Thu, former servent of Morgoth. Upon learning this Celebrimbor swore an oath to never let the three rings fall into his hands. When Sauron arrived demanding them, Celebrimbor (in front of many others) stated:
"Never shalt though despoil what my long years of work have given us. By the blood of Feanor my father's father, I curse thee...you shall be Thu no longer but Sauron, the abominable one! And with that Sauron struck him down, but with his death ended the doom of Mandos and the curse of Feanor, (the Feanor doom is because he is the last known of that line). And from that day on, alike to what Feanor did ages before to Melkor, Thu was then on called Sauron, the abominable one.
Obviously it can't be worded this way, but this concept would add a great role for Celebrimbor and add closure to the line of Feanor.
--------------------

"I come from yonder...Have you seen Baggins? Baggins has left, he is coming. He is not far away. I wish to find him. If he passes will you tell me? I will come back with gold."


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Aiwendil
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posted March 06, 2002 09:10 PM
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Well, that's not exactly what we're doing here; we're compiling a canon Silmarillion based entirely on Tolkien's writings. Interesting idea for a fan fiction though.
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Lhundael
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posted March 08, 2002 02:00 PM
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It would be nice if that would be the way it happend, but to put it a better way, if anyone has ever been acquainted with the Bible, in Acts St. Paul is referred to as Saul for the first few chapters he is in, I believe that is the way the Silmarillian is in relation to LotR, as to Thu and Sauron.
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Hlara i engwi eny queta
Utuvien melme mi hendirya


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[ October 09, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]
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Old 10-09-2002, 07:14 AM   #2
lindil
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Topic: Annotated Hobbit, New Edition, brief review
Tar Elenion
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posted August 23, 2002 12:41 AM
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I just received a review copy of the new edition of the Annotated Hobbit (working in the industry has some benefits). I have only been able to skim over it.
Some changes from the first edition are that it includes some colour plates (from JRRT and other artists) more commentary on some of the black and white illustrations, the notes on the textual revisions of The Hobbit are now included in the body of the book instead of as an appendix. Some of the annotations are expanded (for example the
'pointy ears', the 'scientific version revision', the two Thrains controversy is addressed, Thranduil's hair is mentioned). There is an expanded bibliogaphy.
All new to this edition is the inclusion of the 'Quest of Erebor' one version of which was included in UT. The UT version was the compressed 'C' text, with extracted passages from the longer 'B' text given at the end. The entire 'B' typescript is given as an appendix in this edition and does include previously unpublished information.
Price is $28.00.

__________________
Tar-Elenion
Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice.
Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue.

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Tar-Elenion


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lindil
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posted August 24, 2002 08:12 AM
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very cool, thanks TarElenion.
I [ or Aiwendil] will prob let it sit here for a day before moving it to the books section so every one can see it.

when is it due for public consumption?


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Findegil
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posted September 02, 2002 04:16 PM
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Thanks Tar Elenion,
could you give me some more infomation about the book? Most helpful would be a ISBN and the publisher would also help.

Respectfully
Findegil


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Tar Elenion
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posted September 02, 2002 04:43 PM
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Houghton Mifflin
0-618-13470-0
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Tar-Elenion


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JenFramp
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posted September 13, 2002 12:00 AM
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What exactly is that book have in it? Other than the hobbit of course
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And seeing a picture of Jesus he cried out,"Momma, he's got some scars just like me." And he knew it was love, It was one he could understand He was showing his love,
And that's how he hurt his hands.


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lindil
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posted September 13, 2002 07:48 AM
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See the first post for rather detailed contents.
I have looked at it a few times and while it contains a wealth of 'lore', the format also distracts from reading. But this i think is done w/ the cleaqr presumption that anyone reading this edition is probably on their 20th go around or so

Some of the illustrations are good, some wretched and makes you wonder what the artistic editor [not too mention the original artist!] was on.

I did not yet see the 'Myth's transformed commentary'. I will have to search for it more next time I see it.

much of the commentary is concerned w/ references to JRRT's sources, both literary,artistic and his family life.

I did read the full 'b' version of the Quest for Erebor and it has a few lines here and there that are of interest that were completely absent from UT.

Other than that much of it felt disjointed being along side the Text itself.

I would have stuck it all at the end myself.
Anywaqy Tar Elenion's initial description really does outline it well.
Hope I added a bit more detail for you JenFramp.

btw welcome to the Silm Forum -

--------------------

lindil
--The Osanwe Discussion board ~ exploring the nature and questions of Osanwe, and Traditional Christianity.oh yeah, read Otherland!


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Tar Elenion
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posted September 14, 2002 02:02 PM
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The 'Scientific Version' annotation is on pg 218, note 23. It points out that the Sun and Moon existed before the Elves awoke in the (revised) Hobbit.
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Tar-Elenion


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The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.
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Old 10-09-2002, 11:45 AM   #3
lindil
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Sting

Topic: where is lindil?
Mithadan
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posted September 20, 2000 01:43 PM
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Haunting Spirit
Posts: 77

Well, where is our standard bearer, the ever optomistic Lindil? This is the longest upgrade I've ever heard of.

Edited by: lindil at: 6/26/01 9:53:34 pm

[ March 17, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]


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The Barrow-Wight
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posted September 20, 2000 03:29 PM
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Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1297

Re: Where's Lindil?

I've been hoping he would poke his head back in here, but sadly he hasn't yet. Hopefully soon!
The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
I usually haunt The Barrow-Downs and The Barrow-Downs Middle-Earth Discussion Board.


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lindil
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posted November 19, 2000 09:19 PM
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Wight
Posts: 143

Re: Where's Lindil?

greetings!
Nice to know I was missed .
Unfortunately I may not be able to plug in again in any serious way, due to an overwhelming #of obligations and a personality that will happily ignore them while while I ponder and discourse on the most subtle nuances of Middle-Earth. so just a brief hello and a uick perusal of the Silm stuff.
God bless,
lindil


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The Barrow-Wight
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posted November 19, 2000 10:04 PM
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Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1600

Re: Where's Lindil?

Dang lindil.... Where's your priorities?? The Downs is much more important than the real World

Good to see you ... hope all is well!
The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
I usually haunt The Barrow-Downs and The Barrow-Downs Middle-Earth Discussion Board.


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lindil
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posted April 17, 2001 09:32 AM
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Seeker of the Straight Path
Posts: 598

Re: Where's Lindil?

" He's off again,but at least he hasn't taken the victuals!"

Greetings to all at the Silm Forum.
I must take your leave for a brief period, I should [God willing] be back June 3rd or 4th, hopefully for a long spell.


I will be posting a near daily quote or 2 from the desert Fathers on my Osanwe-Kenta board but that is all I am at liberty to do.


Good luck, w/ things - I can be reached at my email if need be.
Behave yourselves and
"DON'T LEAVE THE PATH!!!"

Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working on a new Elven/Christian discussion boardOsanwe-Kenta 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.'


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Mithadan
Spirit of Mist


Member # 4


posted April 17, 2001 12:15 PM
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Spirit of Mist
Posts: 827

Re: Where's Lindil?

Hmmmm. I do believe that Mad Baggins is off again.
--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth."


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Posts: 1899 | From: Tol Eressea | Registered: Jul 2000

HerenIstarion
Deadnight Chanter


Member # 111


posted April 23, 2001 08:27 AM
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Deadnight Chanter
Posts: 1052

Re: Where's Lindil?

He'll be back with a sack of jools, hopefully, enriched and with renewed hope
GeorgeLashkhi


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Posts: 2099 | From: Tbilisi, Georgia | Registered: Sep 2000

HerenIstarion
Deadnight Chanter


Member # 111


posted June 02, 2001 05:15 PM
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Deadnight Chanter
Posts: 1195

Re: Where's Lindil?

and what's wrong with that link in his signature? Osanwe Kenta can not be open. Well, waiting till the end of June with hope
GeorgeLashkhi


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Posts: 2099 | From: Tbilisi, Georgia | Registered: Sep 2000

lindil
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posted June 02, 2001 11:00 PM
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Seeker of the Straight Path
Posts: 600

Re: Where's Lindil?

Greetings folks, I am back a day early [I forgot to calculate that the liturgical day begins at sundown.

renewed hope and inspiration is right!

As for that link... that is a short and sad story.
ezboard now claims the beta boards [of which Osanwe-Kenta was one] were experimental and subject to immediate destruction, dislocation ad or dissolution.

so......I am pondering the return of O-K if there is enough call for it. I have already graciously recv'd one offer for it to be a more or less independent forum on an already existing board of similar intent. we shall see. I am not clear on it yet. It took an awful lot of time , and that is something I need to be very careful with.

lindil


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Posts: 931 | From: a hidden fastness [N. CA] | Registered: Jul 2000

HerenIstarion
Deadnight Chanter


Member # 111


posted June 03, 2001 09:38 AM
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Deadnight Chanter
Posts: 1196

Re: Where's Lindil?

Welcome back Glad to see (hm, ok, to read ) you again. It would be nice to have Osanwe back (of course, if you feel like prolonging it) I really haven't been posting there much, but used to read with concern and interest
GeorgeLashkhi


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Posts: 2099 | From: Tbilisi, Georgia | Registered: Sep 2000

lindil
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posted June 03, 2001 02:34 PM
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Seeker of the Straight Path
Posts: 606

Re: Where's Lindil?

concern?

Thanks for the rewelcome H-I.
I will def. be keeping tabs of O-K support so thanks for speaking up.

lindil


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Valgalen
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posted June 07, 2001 06:52 PM
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Newly Deceased
Posts: 1

Re: Where's Lindil?

Lindl, as so many of our time, is oft to not be found. But when found indeed, it is a merry meet.
My thanks for the map my friend. Another homely house is always appreciated. And for the bail. If by wood, water or stone I may be of aid you have but to call. I am indebted, and at your service.

Valgalen, the Green


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lindil
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posted June 26, 2001 09:57 PM
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Seeker of the Straight Path
Posts: 661

Re: Where's _______?

My computer is giving me serious problems , I am at a public terminal now and about to run out of time so i will post again as soon as I am able. If anyone wants to reach me try
davidryanacupressurist@yahoo.com

as this is an email i can check from any pc.

wish me luck - I prob need a new OS and browser and will be relying on the kindness of friends.

I gave the thread a new name so anyone can let us all know about similar things.

hope to be back soon - stay busy.


Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working onthe 2nd Elven/Christian discussion boardOsanwe, and Gilthalion's Tar Ost-in-Eruhir. and Finrod prophecieth to Andreth " Therefore Eru,if He will not relinquish His work to Melkor... must come in to conquer him.


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Posts: 931 | From: a hidden fastness [N. CA] | Registered: Jul 2000

lindil
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posted March 17, 2002 09:04 PM
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well yet another Lenten Season has begun [old Orthodox Calendar that is] and I will most likely be gone till may 5th [Pascha]. I can be reached at
theryans@pacific.net
for any really pressing moderatorial matter.
Such as another hot blooded lore fest between T-E and MM
Best wishes on research, work and noble-spirited debate.
God-willing I shall be back before you know it w/ renewed enthusiasm, chronos to spare, and a strong desire to cut,paste and edit till we have some completed texts.

After rereading most of the 2nd and third age UT material and peeking into HoME12's fuller versioons of the LotR appendices I would love to see the 'Of the Rings of Power and the 3rd age' become the basis for a 77Silm sized narraration of the 2nd and 3rd ages which would include Akallabeth/much of galadriel and Celeborn/Cirion and Eorl/Istari/disaster of the GF/Dwarves and Men, etc.
Anyway that is my current interest, but I def. think FoG should be wrapped up first, and the 1st age writings re-edited.


" He's off again,but at least he hasn't taken the victuals!"

[ March 17, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

--------------------

lindil
--The Osanwe Discussion board ~ exploring the nature and questions of Osanwe, and Traditional Christianity.oh yeah, you may want to read Otherland.
__________________
The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.
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Old 10-09-2002, 11:59 AM   #4
lindil
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Sting

Topic: How to join the "members only" Translations team?
Mithadan
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posted June 22, 2001 08:00 AM
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Spirit of Mist
Posts: 903

It would likely be a good idea to explicitly state how to go about it. I, for one, would like to throw in with the team though my participation would likely be limited to commentary/analysis rather than actual drafting. Lindil, I'll send you my e-mail (I'm having difficulties with my "Private Mail").
--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth."


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Posts: 1805 | From: Tol Eressea | Registered: Jul 2000

lindil
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posted June 22, 2001 09:25 AM
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Seeker of the Straight Path
Posts: 657

Re: How to join the "members only" Translations te

I had actually d a FAQ in the intro to the forum/project thread, it was killed by an 'illegal html' bug - so I hope to replace it tonight.
Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working onthe 2nd Elven/Christian discussion boardOsanwe, and Gilthalion's Tar Ost-in-Eruhir. and Finrod prophecieth to Andreth " Therefore Eru,if He will not relinquish His work to Melkor... must come in to conquer him.


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Posts: 853 | From: a hidden fastness [N. CA] | Registered: Jul 2000

Mister Underhill
Dread Horseman


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posted June 23, 2001 12:39 AM
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Dread Horseman
Posts: 680

Re: How to join the "members only" Translations te

I'm certainly very interested in having a look at what the project is producing, though like Mith, I have precious little time to contribute any actual drafting (not to mention that I'm woefully underqualified, scholarship-wise). I'll put in for the sort of reader/analyst job Mith applied for, though, if you're giving those out.

P.S., my private message is working just fine as far as I know.

Edited by: Mister Underhill at: 6/23/01 12:40:09 am

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Posts: 1469 | From: the Renaissance | Registered: Sep 2000

lindil
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posted June 23, 2001 06:04 AM
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Seeker of the Straight Path
Posts: 658

Re: How to join the "members only" Translations te

Excellent Mr. Underhill,

Please keep in mind that the discussions will take place here at the 'old forum' polls i.e. decisions and the placement and editing of texts at the Translations from the elvish forum.

To those who are temporaly challanged, such as myself , please kep in mind that not every thread in the old forum is essential or even directly relevant [not to say unimportant !] to the Project.
Keep an eye on thePrinciples, FoG and Intro threads though in addition to any calls for votes or decisions at the Translations from the Elvish forum.

MITHADAN - did you receive my email - sent just prior to this post?


again welcome back aboard M, and congrats on your removing your ring MR. U !

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HerenIstarion
Deadnight Chanter


Member # 111


posted June 23, 2001 07:43 AM
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Deadnight Chanter
Posts: 1260

Re: How to join the "members only" Translations te

aiwa
GeorgeLashkhi


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Posts: 2027 | From: Tbilisi, Georgia | Registered: Sep 2000

lindil
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posted June 23, 2001 08:52 AM
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Seeker of the Straight Path
Posts: 659

Re: How to join the "members only" Translations te

Heren Istarion posted: aiwa

Lindil replies: ???

GENERAL NOTICE:
the Introduction to the Forum/Project and Council thread is back up and running and hopefully has an answer to your questions, if not put em up. [in the 'intro' thread]


Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working onthe 2nd Elven/Christian discussion boardOsanwe, and Gilthalion's Tar Ost-in-Eruhir. and Finrod prophecieth to Andreth " Therefore Eru,if He will not relinquish His work to Melkor... must come in to conquer him.

Edited by: lindil at: 6/23/01 8:57:00 am

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Posts: 853 | From: a hidden fastness [N. CA] | Registered: Jul 2000

HerenIstarion
Deadnight Chanter


Member # 111


posted June 26, 2001 03:59 AM
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Deadnight Chanter
Posts: 1282

Re: How to join the "members only" Translations te

aiwa: - expression of agreement, if not in particuliar details, but in general
GeorgeLashkhi


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Posts: 2027 | From: Tbilisi, Georgia | Registered: Sep 2000

Lhundael
Haunting Spirit


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posted February 11, 2002 11:31 AM
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Depending on the elvish, i am somewhat qualified to translate Cwenya(Quenya) and any writing based in that form.* Sindarin i can translate a little, but not enough to be of any help.

*Note: I say writing because, basically, Cwenya was a language that was used more for writing than for speaking.

--------------------

Hlara i engwi eny queta
Utuvien melme mi hendirya


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lindil
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posted February 11, 2002 01:22 PM
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welcome Lhundael,

Jallanite and Aiwendil are the primary linguists here and their work is mostly to be found in the Fall of Gondolin: a project thread.
There are a few points still being worked on [in the FoG] , a final version of the 7 names of the City, a final decision on Legolas Greenleaf [Cian offered some plausible substitutions , but not all are in favor of the changes] and of course any miraculous insight you may have w/ Rog. I may be missing some points but a review of the Intro, FoG, Mechanical Monsters and the bye bye balrogs threads should bring you mostly current.

also as a note to all - The ideal place for signing on is the intro thread. this is a spur discussion that will sooner or later be closed, I imagine.

lindil

[ February 11, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]


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Thingol
Shade of Carn Dm


Member # 1071


Rate Member
posted February 11, 2002 08:48 PM
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I've been observing for a while now, but don't really have much to add to most discussions. I am also woefully underqualified to contribute much. So far all of the posts have been very interesting.
[ February 11, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ]

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Yet the lies that Melkor, the mighty and accursed, Morgoth Bauglir, the Power of Terror and of Hate, sowed in the hearts of Elves and Men are a seed that does not die and cannot be destroyed; and ever and anon it sprouts anew, and will bear dark fruit even unto the latest days.


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Eruhen
Wight


Member # 1392


Member Rated:

posted February 20, 2002 11:40 AM
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I can help with either Sindarin or Quenya, though I am better with Sindarin, but I'm learning fast. You can also give me a proof-reading job if need be. I don't care, I just want to help. Also, please send me a PM rather than an e-mail, because my e-mail is being retarded in the extreme. Thanx!
--------------------

laita Ilvatar!

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.


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The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.
lindil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2002, 12:08 PM   #5
lindil
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Origin of Orcs and Last Battle
this thread was archived as the core discussion ended up happening in the thread "Orcish Fear"

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Mithadan
Spirit of Mist


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posted July 26, 2000 10:41 PM
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Orcs - Are they corrupted elves? LoTR IMPLIES they are. The Silm. suggests they are. Morgoth's Ring and Letters say no. If not elves, what were they? I've seen this one degenerate quickly on other boards so keep it civil.

The Final Battle - The end of Ea, the apocalypse itself. The Silmarillion predicts it but says nothing more. BoLT (Book of Lost Tales) and other HoME volumes go into more detail -- war on the plains of Valinor, the weary Valar, Turin slays Morgoth (wait a minute, Turin?). Later versions don't really get into it. Did JRRT change his mind? And what happens thereafter (the thereafter part is now the subject of a thread at White Council)?


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galpsi
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posted July 27, 2000 05:11 AM
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Re: Origin of Orcs

Twentieth-century biologists (among them, my father) take pains to explain that there is no such thing as "corruption." There is only evolution.
(This is in lieu of making some sort of commitment by signing in. I will lend this my every curious eye but doubt that I can contribute significantly. My Summer gets busier with every week and come Autumn I go back to the classroom to teach and to attend. I reckon any spare time I can muster belongs better to Kittle's Encyclopedia project to which I've yet to proffer my promised contribution.)
ps, speaking of incivility, I've heard that trolls are mockeries of ents as orcs are of elves. Rumor says?


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Taimar
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posted July 27, 2000 08:22 AM
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Re: Origin of Orcs

Melkor/Morgoth is a Vala and as such, would he have the power to alter captured Elves at a genetic level in order to breed Orcs? My knowledge of science is pretty basic, unfortunately, so others may be better informed, the erudite Galpsi for example, as to the practicalities of this. I am fortunate enough, however, to have someone with a professional interest in these matters on hand (my wife is an immunologist, specializing in DNA vaccines), and she sees no reason why a someone possessing the ability to alter their own physical form at will would not be able to tamper with the form of others. She suggests a combination of DNA recombination and a long-term selective breeding program.

I think the theory that Orcs are corrupted/evolved from the Elves would be my choice as an explanation of their origins. I also agree with Galpsi about trolls being made `in mockery` of the Ents. If I remember correctly Treebeard states this fairly clearly in LOTR, as well as the fact that Orcs were made in mockery of Elves.
Look into the Mirror of Desire.

Edited by Taimar at: 7/27/00 9:17:16 am

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Mithadan
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posted July 27, 2000 09:13 AM
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Pile o' Bones
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Re: Origin of Orcs

The problem is that both LoTR and the Silm. hold that Sauron and Morgoth couldn't "make" anything (compare the section on Aule's making of the dwarves -- no self awareness unless Eru provides it). The hard question is from what were orcs, and for that matter trolls or even dragons, made. Elves make sense given JRRT's latest chronologies. But JRRT apparently began to retreat from this position. The only real candidates are elves, men and dwarves (for orcs) and JRRT was leaning away from elves. Dwarves don't seem to fit, physically, and JRRT says that, other than greed, they are difficult to corrupt (I'm staying away from genetics here).

This leaves men, but they don't fit either. Orcs first came into Beleriand well before the slaying of the trees and the rebellion of the Noldor. They were also around to "greet" Feanor after he landed. But, JRRT (or CT) has men awakening at the first rising of the sun, which occurred after the Noldor arrived in ME (this also implicates Lindil's round earth/flat earth/Narsillion debate). Men don't work unless the chronology changes radically (I always thought that men got to Beleriand too fast). Also, there's the Gorbag/Shagrat discussion of "the bad old times", implying that orcs are long-lived like elves.


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lindil
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posted July 27, 2000 09:52 AM
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Re: Origin of Orcs and Gil-Galad !

I think that the older elves [men?] into orcs and trolls into ents conception should stay with a 'revised' silmarillion and Tolkien's deconstruction /partial reconstuct of this, among many points should go into a 'New Silmarillion'
[see my New/Revised post of if you want a bit more of this thinking].
I havn't seen the bit on turin yet ; although I could think of noone more fitting than Turin [except for maybe his father or sister ! ] for the demise of Morgoth. A pity if it couldn't be worked in the revised version somehow.

Edited by lindil at: 7/28/00 12:04:26 am

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galpsi
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posted July 27, 2000 06:59 PM
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Re: Origin of Orcs and Gil-Galad !

This will be a thread board on which to tease. Even my most pointless wise-cracks serve to stimulate the erudition of this crowd.


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Mithadan
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posted July 28, 2000 08:30 AM
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Pile o' Bones
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Re: Origin of Orcs and Gil-Galad !

Who are you calling erude?


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galpsi
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posted July 28, 2000 09:03 AM
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Re: Origin of Orcs and Gil-Galad !

Yeah! And what's a thread board?


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HerenIstarion
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posted September 27, 2000 08:34 PM
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Re: Final Battle

It is logical to have final battle abandoned - it is still to come. imagine we are now in 10th or some 15th age of the arda. It is still to come


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Garbonig
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posted October 18, 2000 05:30 AM
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Re: Final Battle

Final Battle is quite probably as idea or scene influenced by Edda's Raknark. Raknark is also a huge battle, where just about everything is destroyed. Difference is that in raknark there is new rise of humans after that, or least hint that it might happen, but Tolkiens final battle is more like end of the world, battle before the "final judgement", some kind of armageddon. So final battle must be influenced by bibles profetias of dooms day. As someone allready said in earlier re., final battle is something still to come, Tolkien has left it open.


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Grey Fool
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posted November 05, 2000 01:51 PM
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Orc evolution

My guess is that Middle Earth supports just about the exact same rate of biodiversity as our native Earth, and as such the origin of such a malign species as orcs
is lost somewhere in the annals of chance. I'm certain that a theory exists somewhere that they were bred from dwarves in the North, during the Elder days. This would of course have required a total reversal of the main driving gene, whose function in the dwarves was to make them work hard constantly and produce wealth and fortitude. Orcs tended rather to destroy the majority of whatever they could lay their three-fingered hands on. Let's not forget that the majority of orcs throughout the ages remained Snaga, with relatively few reaching the Uruk stage until Saruman needed more for his campaign. Herein lies a basic comparison: Snaga and dwarves are both essentially slaves to a cause; Snaga serving evil as the sole purpose for their existence, and dwarves serving only themselves really, without much evolutional ambition other than to stay alive and strong. If a dwarf and an orc had a fight, however, it is highly likely that the dwarf would win.

But I wouldn't write off the Elf theory either


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Saulotus
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posted November 05, 2000 02:34 PM
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Re: Orc evolution

Dwarves were not corrupted until the Rings.

Some dwarves of the east did indeed become servants of Sauron.

The awakening of Dwarves is pushed back to around V.Y. 1250 and I know of no theory from Tolkien in any writing that has them as ancestors of Orcs in any capacity.


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Mithadan
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posted November 06, 2000 01:49 PM
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Re: Orc evolution

Grey Fool: For a detailed discussion on the origins of orcs, see the thread "Orcish fear" in this forum. Saulotus is correct re: dwarves (and probably just about everything else).
--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth."


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Saulotus
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posted November 06, 2000 08:02 PM
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Re: Orc evolution

Hush now. I make mistakes.
I even admit to them too.
In some people that combo isn't a working relationship.


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Mithadan
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posted November 07, 2000 12:10 AM
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Re: Orc evolution

True. Inability to admit a mistake leads to defending or being trapped in an indefensible position. Runs about even with the concept that if you repeat something often enough or loud enough it becomes correct. Its one thing to possess a strong opinion and another to deny that its an opinion and pretend its a fact. That's why these boards interest me. The gaps in JRRT's works allow for speculation and extrapolation from what is known. Its an exercise in both creativity and advocacy with the added bonus of an enjoyable subject matter. Fun so long as everyone remembers that the goal is to discuss and persuade, not to "win". I have a nassssty temper but try not to let it peek through here. Sometimes I slip. Almost everyone does.
--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth."


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Saulotus
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posted November 07, 2000 12:52 PM
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Re: Mithadan - (1) Origin of Orcs; (2)Final Battle

Well said. Well said.

I tend to shy away from excessive speculation.
I'll do some speculation mind you (normally if asked), but within bounds created by text.
If it still remains that there are gaps as a result; so be it.


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Grey Fool
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posted November 08, 2000 03:01 PM
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Orcish ancestry

I think dwarves are cited in HoME as being the blood relatives of orcs, but then again I could be wrong.
However, without mere speculation, there would have been no Tolkien.

NOTE:


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Saulotus
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posted November 08, 2000 03:27 PM
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Re: Orcish ancestry


Quote:
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by Grey Fool
I think dwarves are cited in HoME as being the blood relatives of orcs, but then again I could be wrong.
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LOL!!!!!

You are.

Closest they ever got to that was when the Elves first met the Dwarves, they thought they were another form of Melkorian Beast.

This is also said in SILMARILLION.

Edited by: Saulotus at: 11/8/00 7:17:03 pm

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Mithadan
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posted November 08, 2000 10:52 PM
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Re: Orcish ancestry

Might another factor in the elves initial impression of Dwarves not be that their first contact was with the Petty Dwarves who were less civil and more hostile than their "city-bred" kin?
--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth."


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Saulotus
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posted November 09, 2000 05:40 AM
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Re: Orcish ancestry

That is stated concerning petty-dwarves, and how the Elves hunted them thinking they were servants of Melkor. But you knew that already.


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Child of the 7th Age
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posted August 22, 2002 01:35 PM
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I am pulling up this thread as it relates to a discussion in the Books Forum.
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Guided by the Lonely Star,beyond the utmost harbour-bar, I'll find the havens fair and free,and beaches of the Starlit Sea. Ship, my ship! I seek the West and fields and fountains ever blest.... Bilbo's Last Song


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Old 10-09-2002, 01:01 PM   #6
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"how do you define canon"

Orodhromeus
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posted March 19, 2002 04:04 PM
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To start with, I can't pretend to be a Tolkien expert (far from it, though I promise someday I will be, it needs work ), but I would like to clear up some things. I'm beginning to read the earlier posts and forgive me if my answers are already there, though I'm certain this matter is still debatable. But amidst all of Tolkien's posthumous work, it's hard to decide what can be considered as canon, what material was earlier work later abandoned, what was unfinished drafts and so on. Tolkien was a perfectionist - the number of his published work while was alive shows this - and much was left uncompleted. How much unfinished are the published "Unfinished Tales"? What can be unarguably considered as canon?
And, most of all, what was the extent of Christopher Tolkien's reworking, editing, rewriting, pasting? What did he originally have and how much did he "harm" the original excerpts of writings to assemble a Silmarillion? For the HoME series? I don't mean disrespect for him, but the introduction of the Silmarillion doesn't help me much, and I have yet to find a HoME volume... I think such matters ought to be solved before the fans sink into the details of a revised Silmarillion, with all due respect.


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Mhoram
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posted March 19, 2002 05:08 PM
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Well, all I can say is that to answer your questions you are going to have to study HoME. Based on having done that I think Chris did a good job, he harmed very little imo.
As far as defining canon, I suggest the two articles by Micheal Martinez that you will find links to in the thread "A funny thing happened on the way to the forum"

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All times are Eastern U.S. Time
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Old 10-10-2002, 02:01 PM   #7
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Topic: Laws and Customs: Marriage and Childbirth
Mhoram
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posted March 15, 2002 01:05 PM
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quote:
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For at the end of the third year mortal children began to outstrip the Elves, hastening on to a full stature while the Elves lingered in the first spring of childhood. Children of Men might reach their full height while Eldar of the same age were still in body like to mortals of no more than seven years. Not until the fiftieth year did the Eldar attain the stature and shape in which their lives would after-wards endure, and for some a hundred years would pass before they were full-grown.
And later...

The Eldar wedded for the most part in their youth and soon after their fiftieth year.

And later...

But at whatever age they married, their children were born within a short space of years after their wedding. Short as the Eldar reckoned time. In mortal count there was often a long interval between the wedding and the first child-birth, and even longer between child and child.

-Laws and Customs, HoME X


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It is very clear that everything above is said in Years of the Sun. Why would Tolkien give us these statements and then have all the recorded births/marriages be totally blind to them? I mean look at these figures below, it's practically random. Any thoughts?


The first elves, including Finwe, come to Valinor in 1133 YT.
Miriel is said to have been born in Aman, so she and Finwe couldn't have wed any earlier than 1133 YT.

Feanor is born to Finwe in 1169 YT
Feanor has seven sons by 1490 YT
Thats 321 YT, 32,100 YS.

Fingolfin is born 50 YS after Finwe marries Indis.
Finarfin is born 400 YS after Fingolfin.

Fingolfin is 900 YS when he has his first child, Fingon.
Turgon is born to Fingolfin 200 YS after Fingon.
Isfin is born to Fingolfin 620 YS after Turgon.

Finarfin is 500 YS when he weds Earwen.
Finrod is born to Finarfin 200 YS after marriage.
Galadriel is born 620 YS after Finrod, with Orodreth, Angrod, and Aegnor between the two.

Turgon is 1690 YS when he has Idril.

And note, this is all during years of peace, so the bearing of children shouldn't have been interupted.
Also note that I used 1=10 instead of 1-9.582 since there's no need to be exact here.

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\m/ Lyrics...wasted time between guitar solos! \m/


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Aralaithiel
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posted March 15, 2002 06:35 PM
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Hmmmm...ya got me. I'll check back & see if anyone has an explanation, as I am not good with numbers.
Mhoram, I like the little bouncy thingy at the bottom of your post!
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"None and none! What I have left behind I count now no loss; needless baggage on the road it has proved. Let those that cursed my name, curse me still, and whine their way back to the cages of the Valar. Let the ships burn! Fanor
M ess Eru, iny Nrlindal Aralaithiel, haryany le, Laiqualass Thranduilion, ve vernonya, harya ho sina aur ar tennoio, ter alass, ter angayass, mi fr, mi ufr, melm le eress. Sina n vandanya.


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Old 10-11-2002, 08:47 AM   #8
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I am pruning most non-essential threads form the FaQ/Intro thread so some will show up here for Archival purposes.

have a suggestion.
I suggest first creating the most complete "Tale of Years" possible. This would follow the same pattern as Appendix B in RotK. This tale of years would span from the beginning with The Music of the Ainur through the little information on the Fourth Age as we have.

The point of doing this is to give a really solid organization to the project. Once you have the Tale of Years you could go to each point on the timeline and gather ALL the writings which deal or refer to it. After finishing with this you would have all of tolkien's legendarium together, with multiple copies of many sections throughout, since some sections are going to apply to many points on the timeline. This is being thorough, maybe overly so, and could be debated.

Now you can go through each point on the timeline and if it has only one account and there are no suggested conflicts, it's marked as finished and set aside. Doing this with all points you would be left with those which have conflict or multiple accouts. These would be discussed one by one(not necessarily in order) until a conclusion is met. Some points will be ready to be put aside as complete, but some will never be answered or finished, these would be handled thusly: They would be narrowed down to the least bit of possible interpretations and these points on the timeline would thereafter be presented with such possible interpretations as can not be decided surely against.

At this point the timeline should be in it's most complete phase, a chronological History of Arda, the sum of all Tolkien's Legendarium.

My suggestion.

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Old 10-11-2002, 04:55 PM   #9
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all of this should already be in the Revised Fall of Gondolin threads -
mod. note


Topic: the 7 names of Gondolin
lindil
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posted June 21, 2002 04:58 AM
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++++Moderator 's Note:
I am slowly trtying to move the material pertaing to the thopc here from the FoG thread, so as to allow a dedicated thread to focus on the same exsclusively.
HTML rigamarole is going to make it a slow process so...
PLEASE DO NOT START COMMNETING UNLESS YOU HAVE READ THE RELEVANT SECTIONS ON PAGE 2 OF THE 'A Project:FoG'

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posted July 25, 2001 10:16 AM
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On the seven names of Gondolin

First, I'll deal strictly with updating the old names:

Gondobar, Loth, and, of course, Gondolin can stay. 'Gondothlimbar' is merely the class plural for the dwellers in Gondolin + _bar_; I believe the later class plural was _Gondolidrim_, so I used *Gondolidrimbar, as awkward as it sounds. There might be better suggestions there. The question mark is for Gwarestrin, where we have a bit more of a problem: this is said in II to mean 'tower of guard'; a literal rendering of this in later Sindarin would be Minas Tirith, which I don't think we can use in light of the Minas Tirith that already exists in the 1st age. A look at the etymological notes in II reveals that 'Gwarestrin' means more literally 'guard pinnacle'; we could represent 'pinnacle' with Sindarin _amon_ or _ered_, 'hill' and 'mountain', respectively. 'Amon Gwareth', of course, already refers to the hill on which the city is built. But I think for 'guard' the best to use is _tir_ as in _tirith_ and _tirion_. Then we might have _Amon Tirith_ or something like that, or we could make an actual compound, _Tiramon_. The last name, 'Lothengriol' presents less of a problem. It is said here to mean 'flower that blooms on the plain', but since 1. I could find no later Sindarin (or Quenya) word for 'plain' and 2. the etymological notes give _engriol_ not as 'plain' but as 'valley', I changed it here to 'valley', using _nan_ for plain. This gives us *Lothnan, which (I think) would become *Lothinan.

On top of these concerns, however, we have several later names for Gondolin that appear in the Etymologies. These are 'Gondost', 'Ardholen', and 'Garthoren'. These names are not mentioned in direct connection with the 7 names of the city; we therefore might assume that they are not among the 7 names. However, as the 7 names already include some that are clearly more colloquial nick-names, and as we never again find any other names for Gondolin, I think we should probably include these three.

That means, of course, that three of the original names must be replaced. 'Gondost' is given as 'stone city'; at first glance, then, it would appear to best replace 'Gondobar', translated 'stone city' by the guard and more literally meaning 'stone dwelling'. However, this is a problem, as we find 'Gondobar' in the etymologies as well. Clearly the two names existed side by side. This leads us to a further problem: if we use both 'Gondost' and 'Gondobar', we'll have basically the same translations used by the guard: 'Gondobar, city of stone, and Gondost, city of stone'. The best solution I can say would be to use something like: 'Gondobar, stone-dwelling, and Gondost, city of stone.'

What, then, should 'Gondost' replace? My inclination would be 'Gondothlimbar' - this is awkward when we update it to _Gondolidrimbar_, and I think the conjunction of 'Gondobar' and 'Gondost' makes the most sense if they appear next to each other. However, beyond these practical concerns, there is nothing particularly to indicate that 'Gondost' would have replaced 'Gondothlimbar'.

The names 'Ardholen' and 'Garthoren' seem to be related. The etymolgies are very confusing on these. Under the stem
GAT(H)-, we are given: "Another name is Garthurian = Fenced Realm = N Ardholen (which was also applied to Gondolin)."

'Another name', I think, refers to Doriath; there is a discussion of Doriath's names a few sentences earlier, and later, _Garthurian_ again appears as a name for Doriath. Here, however, it is equated with _Ardholen_. I'm not sure what we are to understand the relationship to be; perhaps _Garthurian_ is Dorathrin and _Ardholen_ is Noldorin?

Under the stem 3AR- (3 representing the back-spirant), we have: "Dor. garth realm, Garthurian (Fenced Realm = Doriath)" This at least seems to make it clear that _Garthurian_ is Doriathrin, and refers to Doriath.

Later under the same stem (though the stem GARAT- was later inserted for this section), we are given: 'Q arta fort, fortress. N garth: cf. Garth(th)oren 'Fenced Fort' = Gondolin-distinguish Ardh-thoren = Garthurian."

From all this, the only conclusion I can draw is that we are dealing with two separate, though similar, names. One is Doriathrin 'Garthurian', meaning Doriath, the Noldorin form of which, 'Ardholen', refers to Gondolin (a situation that would get confusing if a Noldo wanted to refer to Doriath). The second is 'Garthoren', a a Noldorin name referring only to Gondolin. The first name means 'Fenced Realm', the second means 'Fenced Fort'.

Under the stem THUR- we are given _thuru_ = fence (Noldorin). So 'Garthoren' at least makes sense etymologically. For 'Ardholen' to work, though, we'd need some kind of word *olen meaning 'fence'. This is, I suppose, possible, since 'Ardholen' is JRRT's Noldorin translation of 'Garthurian', which means 'Fenced Realm'.

'Garthoren' looks quite a bit like 'Gar Thurion', one of the original names for Gondolin. Its meaning, however, is completely different: 'Fenced Fort' vs. 'Secret Place'. We could, though, replace 'Gar Thurion' with 'Garthoren' fairly reasonably.

'Ardholen', though, looks very little like any of the original names, in spelling or meaning. If we are to use it as one of the seven names, the best replacement I could come up with would be to use it for the problematic 'Gwarestrin', though there is no real basis for this.

Sorry for the length and tedium of this discussion, but I think it's an important one. The 7 names of Gondolin should definitely be preserved (they are mentioned in TO); and, of course, we have to do our best to make them work etymologically.


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[ June 21, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]


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Aiwendil
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posted June 21, 2002 11:19 AM
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This is the situation as I see it with each of the names, after taking into account the discussion on the FoG thread.:
Gondolin: Obviously stays; "Stone song".

Gondobar: This works as well; it's translated "city of stone" in FoG, more literal would be "Stone dwelling".

Loth: This also works; "Flower".

Gondothlimbar: We have two options here:
1.Gondothrimbar, which appears to be JRRT's new form for it, but supposes Gondothrim as an alternate name for the Gondolindrim; or 2. Gondolindrimbar, which is formed from the known class plural, but is rather awkward. The translation would be roughly the same for each: "City of the people of Gondolin" or "City of the dwellers in stone".

Gar Thurian: I think that Garthoren was clearly meant as a replacement for this, despite the completely different etymology. I would use it. "Fenced Fort".

Lothengriol: I had missed in my first analysis that this is replaced in HoMe III with Loth-a-ladwen. Jallanite notes that this latter form is also not very good as later Sindarin, but suggests retaining it since it could be an archaic, poetic form. I would be tempted to replace it with Loth-en-laden, or at least Loth-a-laden. "Lily of the plain".

Gwarestrin: This is not quite as difficult as I first thought. We can either keep it, assuming some unknown etymology for esc, or we could use Gwaraectrin from aeg='point'. It is translated "Tower of the Guard" in FoG; more literal is "Guard pinnacle".

In addition to these seven names, we have the problem of two further names appearing later for Gondolin:

Gondost: This is perfectly acceptable as later Sindarin. "Stone City".

Ardholen: This is also probably valid. "Fenced Realm".

The problem is: Gondolin is said to have seven names. We now have nine. Two of them must go; but neither of the two extra names looks like an obvious replacement for any of the original seven. At first glance, it appears that Gondost might supercede Gondobar, but both are found in the Etymologies, indicating that they probably existed side by side.

It is this problem of too many names, rather than any of the actual etymological concerns that is difficult. Should we drop the two extra names? Should we pick two of the original seven to replace with them?

[ June 23, 2002: Message edited by: Aiwendil ]


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obloquy
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posted June 21, 2002 12:02 PM
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Ardholen and Gar Thurian (Garthoren) appear to mean roughly the same thing, so I think the final list of names should include only one or the other.
Gondost and Gondobar mean approximately the same thing as well, so I think the same should go for these two.

In other words, I think all of the unique meanings should be retained. I'll leave the linguistic issues of Lothengriol and Gwarestrin to you who know more about that. I don't think it violates the principles of the project, however, to abandon obsolete (Elvish) words in favor of later, more appropriate words that bear the same meaning.


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Aiwendil
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posted June 22, 2002 02:39 PM
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I think that in the end Obloquy's suggestion is the best way to go. The main problem with it is that both Gondost and Gondobar appear in the Etymologies, and so do both Ardholen and Garthoren. This suggests that all four existed side by side. There are other possible explanations for this, though. Perhaps Ardholen and Garthoren were indeed merely variants of the same name (for a discussion of the treatment of these two names in Etym. see the FoG thread).
So, though it's not perfect, right now I think I agree that we should substitute Gondost for Gondobar and drop Ardholen in favor of Garthoren (or perhaps the other way around on the latter).

[ July 20, 2002: Message edited by: Aiwendil ]


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lindil
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posted June 23, 2002 12:17 PM
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sounds good. And of course there is no reason we can not re-visit the question if need be.

good to see you Obloquy.

I will try and get a similar "transition " thread up in the next few days (minus the 7 names ). I have actually worked on it exstensively 2x onlt to have the HML prob coem and to forget to savwe the changes that the forum would except....

Anyway will give it another go and unless I hear negatively from any members I will try and post the Aussie Rev. Silm material on the private forum.

[ June 24, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

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obloquy
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posted June 24, 2002 12:46 AM
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Yeah, I'm hooked up, thanks lindil.
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posted August 05, 2002 10:32 PM
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Ok. I know that this discussion was a long time ago, but here it goes.
Names:
1. Gondobar = City of Stone to be replace by Gondost, which I assume is a more recent form of elvish.
2. Gondothlimbar = city of dwellers.
3. Gondolin = stone song.
4. Gwarestrin = Tower of Guard.
5. Gar Thurion = Secret Place. Ardholen and Garthurian = Fenced Realm
6. Loth = Flower.
7. Lothengrid = Flower that blooms on the plain.
I agree with obloquy suggestion to keep the unique names.
Why I don't see is why do we keep two names that mean flower Loth and Lothengrid, could we not use only one of those names and use also Ardholen = Fenced Realm.

Just my opinion. Elvish isn't my forte.

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posted August 06, 2002 09:40 AM
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The basis for keeping two "flower"-names is that both "Loth" and "Lothengriol" appear among the seven names in FG. "Lothengriol" was later changed to "Loth-a-ladwen", and I think we might want to change that to "Loth-a-laden" to fit later Sindarin. But since both names appear in the Tale, I'd rather keep both of them.

quote:
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Gondobar = City of Stone to be replace by Gondost, which I assume is a more recent form of elvish.
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Actually, Gondobar and Gondost are both valid Sindarin. Gondobar literally means "Stone-dwelling" while "Gondost" means "Stone-city". Of course, it's perfectly valid to translate "Gondobar" as "Stone-city". I think I agree with you that only one of these names (probably Gondost) should be used. The only objection I can see to this is that both names appear in the Etymologies, suggesting that they existed at the same time, and thus that "Gondost" was not simply a replacement for "Gondobar".


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Madhros
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posted August 10, 2002 08:32 PM
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From the Book of Lost Tales 2: The Fall of Gondolin

quote:
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"We are the guardians of the issue of the Way of Escape. Rejoice that ye have found it, for behold before you the City of
Seven Names where all who war with Melko may find hope."
Then said Tuor: "What be those names?" And the chief of the Guard made answer: "'Tis said and 'tis sung: 'Gondobar am I called and Gondothlimbar, City of Stone and City of the Dwellers in Stone; Gondolin the Stone of Song and Gwarestrin am I named, the Tower of Guard, Gar Thurion or the Secret Place, for
I am hidden from the eyes of Melko; but they who love me most greatly call me Loth, for like a flower am I, even Lothengriol the
flower that blooms on the plain.' Yet," said he, "in our daily speech we speak and we name it mostly Gondolin."
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Original Names in FOG.
1. Gondobar = City of Stone.
2. Gondothlimbar = City of the Dwellers in Stone.
3. Gondolin = the Stone of Song.
4. Gwarestrin = the Tower of Guard.
5. Gar Thurion = the Secret Place.
6. Loth = Flower.
7. Lothengriol = the flower that blooms on the plain.
We have then the Etymologies:

quote:
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GOND- stone. Q ondo stone (as material); N gonn a great stone, or rock. [This original entry was retained, but the base was changed to GONOD-, GONDO-, and the following added:] Cf. Gondolin (see DUL); Gondobar (old Gondambar), Gonnobar = Stone of the World = Gondolin. Another name of Gondolin Gondost [OS], whence Gondothrim, Gondothrimbar. [Cf. Gondothlim, Gondothlimbar in the Lost Tales (II. 342.)]
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quote:
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I think I agree with you that only one of these names (probably Gondost) should be used. The only objection I can see to this is that both names appear in the Etymologies, suggesting that they existed at the same time, and thus that "Gondost" was not simply a replacement for "Gondobar".
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You're right, but names "must" be dismised if we are going to have only 7 names for Gondolin.
You might have the same problem with "Gonnobar", because it's also in the Etymologies.
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Aiwendil
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posted August 11, 2002 10:55 AM
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quote:
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You're right, but names "must" be dismised if we are going to have only 7 names for Gondolin.
You might have the same problem with "Gonnobar", because it's also in the Etymologies.
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Agreed. So I think the list of names that it currently looks like we'll use is:

Gondolin = "Stone song"

Gondost (or maybe Gondobar) = "Stone city"

Gondothrimbar (or maybe Gondolindrimbar) = "City of the dwellers in stone"

Garthoren = "Fenced fort"

Gwarestrin (or maybe Gwaraectrin) = "Tower of the guard"

Loth = "Flower"

Loth-a-ladwen (or maybe Loth-a-laden or Loth-en-laden) = "Lily of the plain"


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Old 10-12-2002, 03:39 AM   #10
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Topic: Use Me
obloquy posted December 22, 2001 09:14 PM
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I am willing to do some work on this project, including typing or word/name replacements, or just about anything that needs attention. I don't know if there are still some who are actively working on it, but if someone could perhaps tell me what needs to be done I will be glad to help. I am not familiar with everything that is planned for this, so if you will have me replace a name throughout a text, I will need to know specifically what name to replace and with what. If I am to type something, I would need to be directed with details. If there's anything else I can do, let me know. I would love to see this come to completion.
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Mithadan posted December 24, 2001 11:37 AM
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While this forum is slow, it is not inactive. Be patient and someone will get back to you.

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Aiwendil - posted December 26, 2001 11:32 AM
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There are indeed still people working on the project, though it has been a bit slow of late. It is, of course, always good to see new people interested in helping. I suggest you start by browsing through some of the old threads to see where we stand and how we've been working - particularly the A Project: Revising the Fall of Gondolin (which is pretty long, so be warned), Mechanical Dragons and the Fall of Gondolin and Bye Bye Balrogs threads. There should also be a thread buried somewhere around here with a standard greeting and introduction for new members; a look at that couldn't hurt.
The situation with the project now is roughly this: we've finished the first draft revisions to the Fall of Gondolin, all of which are posted in that thread. There are still a couple of issues that we have to resolve with the Fall of Gondolin, which I believe I posted in one of the recent 'Where are we' threads. Beyond the Fall of Gondolin, we have some vague ideas scattered through the earlier discussions about how to treat various other sections.

The other forum in this section, 'Translations from the Elvish' I believe it's called, is where we intended to post the completed texts. Technically, it's a member-only forum, but the password is available to anyone who asks for it. Lindil, our nominal leader, usually handles that; I suggest you e-mail him with your interest in the project and be made an 'official' member. If, after all this, you're still interested in typing up some stuff, you can do it and post it in that forum. It is, I fear, a bit more than updating names, however. The Fall of Gondolin that we have should, I think, be assembled thus:

1. Follow Tuor in Unfinished Tales until it ends.
2. See post labelled The Transition. For this and the rest of the sections, the base text is the Fall of Gondolin in the Book of Lost Tales part II, and all changes from that text are listed.
3. See post Tuor in Gondolin
4. See post Maeglin's Treachery
5. See post The Attack
6. See post The Closing Portions
Following each of these is discussion, commentary, and some changes and corrections. Also, toward the beginning of the thread, there's some discussion of name changes that are to be made throughout.

I hope I haven't intimidated you! Anyway, I think it's good that I've laid out exactly what needs be done for the Fall of Gondolin. Any help you can offer you can offer will of course be most appreciated.

[ December 26, 2001: Message edited by: Aiwendil ]


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obloquy posted December 26, 2001 09:23 PM
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Roger. I've already acquired the password to the Translations forum from Underhill. Does that make me an official member or do I need to be added to a roster somewhere?
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HerenIstarion posted December 28, 2001 12:36 PM
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as far as I may assume, now is time to choose Letter (sounds kind of secret society talk, does it not ?), which will define your participation abilities, possibilities and other paraphernalia of the kind
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lindil posted December 28, 2001 01:19 PM
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Aiwendil's outline is an excellent summation, and guide to begining reading/orientaition.
As for action: 1 project that could be profitably undertaken is a collecting of the final suggestions of the name changes to be made in the fall of Gondolin [FoG] These are mostly contributed by Aiwendil and Jallanite in the afore mentioned"A Project: revising 'the fall of gondilin'" I believe it is called.


obloquy posted :Roger. I've already acquired the password to the Translations forum from
Underhill. Does that make me an official member or do I need to be added to a
roster somewhere?

lindil:As for the official membership - your on. I will endeavor to add it to the roster in the intro thread right away.

A couple other items of work could be to copy the BoLT 2 FoG in the 'Translations from the Elvish' Forum and apply the name changess to FoG as is. Then anyone working on the text has already corrected text to start from.

To anyone who is very computer literate, coming up w/ whatever is needed to put in all the proper vowel marks [diaresis, accentegu [sp?] double dots above the E's etc.] . this will only become critical at the end, but if someone has the skills and wants to it could profitably be undertaken at the end of each 'chapter'
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obloquy posted December 28, 2001 05:13 PM
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Implementing the accent marks is actually quite easy if you have Microsoft Word. Simply construct the properly-accented word using the character map, and then add it to your spell-checker's auto correct function. Then you can type the word without using the accents (Aule, for instance) and will fix it for you (you'll have Aul). The only word I don't recommend using this technique with is far since you'll have trouble using the English word "fear".
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Old 10-20-2002, 01:55 AM   #11
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Here are posts from the now stickied **FAQ/INTRO to the Forum/Project thread**.

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Re: Introduction to the Forum and the Rev. Silmarillion Proj

Well, let me first state that I am very pleasantly suprised with how this is lined up. I am pretty new here, extremely interested in the project and have of course, some questions. But overall, this is very good. Some of what I have to ask may appear silly, but I hope not too much. One of the things I like this so much is because I am a bit critical of how CT handled some things in the Sil '77 (despite that being a superb work and he did very well, the last three volumes of HoME have simply been an eye-opener). I guess this project is still at its beginning (realistically) and there is loads of work to be done. I would certainly hope that I can be of help, for the love of the Sil, as you said it would be great to bring som e order to the legendarium chaos.

1. Are we creating a canon silmarillion or are we including the canon works in an "all-round" Silmarillion, which includes the most canon and interesting works that present no serious complication with the rest. I suppose it is the second because one is almost impossible for various reasons. Thought? This is party explained by the Third principle you mentioned, but I just want to have this clear <img src=smile.gif ALT=" [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]">

2. The index of HoME (and the content of the volumes) you are looking for is this one:

http://www.forodrim.org/daeron/md_hm.htmlwww.forodrim.org/daeron/md_hm.html</a>

The index of all the writings in a chronological order is here:

http://www.forodrim.org/daeron/md_hmch.htmlwww.forodrim.org/daeron/md_hmch.html</a>

3. "theLotR and RGEO and the Hobbit are 'canon' the current 1977/2001 Silmarillion is not - that is our whole goal , to incorporate as much as possible of JRRT's writings [especially from X,XI,XII and UT ] as possible into the framework of the Silmarillion as possible to create a literary canon out of what is currently 'Legendarium chaos" end quote

A worthwile aim. Nothing to comment on.

4. You may want to reconsider your thoughts about this being published, I think it might very well be. This project may take years and a lot can happen in the mean time.Keep your fingers crossed anyway.

5. I agree that a lot of folk will be scared of by (yet?) another commitment. This is pretty difficult and you have to know your stuff as well. The number of folks that have read HoME aren't that many. There are a couple very good ones (posters) here though. I'll put the link in my sig at Tolkienonline

6. Will the new Silmarillion consist out of three volumes? Why? Or did you just divide the book into three main parts and I shouldn't see them as separate volumes?

7. What is the official name for the new Sil? Can we come to an abbreviation? That's always handy <img src=smile.gif ALT=" [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]">

8. Re: "6a + FINWE AND MIRIEL"

Perhaps we can consider the early and later versions of it in Morgoth's Ring

9. Re: "15 OF FINROD AND ANDRETH "

A must.

10. Re: "17 - BEREN AND LUTHIEN"

Have you considered the parts in which Thingol actually goes out to fight Boldog and the Orcs to save Luthien, taking with him Mablung and Beleg Cuthalion? You may name them the Wars of Luthien. It also involved Celegorm and Curufin, who wished to set him up, by the use of Luthien in a different way from the Sil. I think Thingol encountered Thu (Sauron as well). It is quite different and I have to check , but I remember that a lot of people found it very exciting, much better than the current one. All found in .III of course

11. I definitly recommend inserting the small part in the Narn of Hurin gathering his Men and departing for the Nirnaeth. Perhaps also show how he felt about the war,how he was completely convinced that no one could defeat the Elves. Tell this in a narrative manner of course.

12. Re: "OF THE WANDERINGS OF HURIN and OF THE RUIN OF DORIATH
add from II ?,IV,V [and later sketches of Hurin?] or
[and I consider this more feasable]use CRT's chapter from the 77"

War of the Jewels of course for the Wanderings of Hurin. Aside from that, I think CT 's chapter was very good, the Ruin of Doriath one. You may want to consider different versions of the taking of the Nauglamir and slaying of Thingol, Mablung's defense etc.

13. Re: "THE FALL OF GONDOLIN"

Very important to get this right, virtually everyone loves this. I would keep things from BolT II as limited as you can because it really has little relation to the later writings anymore, I hope you will agree. Use only that which is plausible. No metal dragons of course. But there is a thread on this anyway. The Balrog thing can easily be fixed by going with the later versions of them, the much more powerful. ones. Abandon Tuor slaying five of them with his axe for instance, for obvious reasons.

14.Re; "Volume III"

are you sure about so much linguistical material in it? Etymologies? And you would think I would cheer for the Lhammas <img src=wink.gif ALT=" [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]">

Further, If you are going to list the chapter about the Istari and of Glorfindel, which again, is an excellent call, you should really addt he part about Cirdan which can be found in Last Writings , HoMe XII, it is great and shed light on his character.

A problem would be including the incredibly complicated Wanderings of Galadriel and Celeborn. I am not so sure it is possible to create a decent version out of this mess. Tar-Elenion might still be interested in posting an essay of some sort about this, he mentioned it in either the "geneologies" or "Parentage of Gil-galad" thread. As said, this is quite difficult but essentiall of you feel you must include it.

15. Get Cian to come here !! (provided he has the time)

Cheers
Pengolodh


"In those days the Noldor still roamed the Hither Lands, Mightiest among the Children of Iluvatar, fair and tall and their beautiful voices were still heard by mere mortals"</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000097>Pengolod h</A> at: 6/10/01 12:30:18 pm


Pengolodh
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posted June 11, 2001 04:21 AM
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Re: Introduction to the Forum and the Rev. Silmarillion Proj

I'm unsure about the date of the writings about Thingol going out and the Wars of Luthien. I would have to check. The story, of course, isn't finished, but more is later told about it in the Notes and Commentary.
"In those days the Noldor still roamed the Hither Lands, Mightiest among the Children of Iluvatar, fair and tall and their beautiful voices were still heard by mere mortals"


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Pengolodh
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posted June 11, 2001 01:40 PM
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Re: Introduction to the Forum and the Rev. Silmarillion Proj

Lindil, I would suggest omitting these four parts of the outline:

-The Quest for Erebor
- The Hunt for the Ring
-The Battles of the Fords of Isen
-Cirion and Eorl

As much as I loved to read about the account of the Battle at the Fords of Isen, I really don't think it deserves a place in the Silmarillion. I believe Tolkien mentioned several times that the SIlmarillion was primarily a background story for the Elves and Men in the First Age and their war against Morgoth. I think a quick summary of the second age by the Akallabeth and "of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" was already very good in the publ. Silmarillion and certainly doesn't need further expanding with chapters such as Cirion and Eorl or an account of the Quest of Erebor such as found in UT.

As said, the tales are nice, but not for a Silmarillion. I understand that it is a general outline, but I think it would be wrong to expand on so much of the Third Age. I would try to keep that in the area of what we see in CT's Silmarillion. The Sil was a background story for all the ages perhaps, but specifically and very much directed to everything centering the First Age. Too much of the Second and Third Age would take away from that, and is, aside from that, unnecessary.

another note, why not make one chapter out of Tuor and his coming to Gondolin and "the fall of Gondolin"?

Cheers


"In those days the Noldor still roamed the Hither Lands, Mightiest among the Children of Iluvatar, fair and tall and their beautiful voices were still heard by mere mortals"


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lindil
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posted June 11, 2001 11:54 PM
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Re: Introduction to the Forum and the Rev. Silmarillion Proj

P. I think you are right and I believe I stated a question as to how far to go w/ the late 3rd age material. I think a case could be made for Cirion and Eorl as it is the only tale from the that point of the 3rd age and it reveals quite a bit about Gondor's traditions re: Elendil; and Erebor , only because it takes the Legendarium right up to the Hobbit. But the LotR material is out of place for sure. I will take Hunt for the ring and the Battle for the Fords off soon.
As for splitting Gondolin it was suggested in the FoG thread that as there is such a large chronological gap, we might as well make use of it to soften the radical shift in writing style that would otherwise take place.
It seems at least worth reading through the FoG both ways once [God willing] the drafts are done.


Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working on yet a 2nd new Elven/Christian discussion boardOsanwe , and Tar Ost-in-Eruhir. and Finrod saith " Therefore Eru,if He will not relinquish His work to Melkor...then Eru must come in to conquer him.


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Pengolodh
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posted June 15, 2001 07:26 AM
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Re: Introduction to the Forum and the Rev. Silmarillion Proj

Lindil

I suppose a case can be made for Cirion and Eorl because of the Tradition of Isildur and such that is in it, but why have this in anyway? Would it not be to extensive? Same goes for an epilogue to the LoTR.

I could imagine the Palantiri essay being included simply because the Palantiri have their origin in the ages even before the First. The Istari essay on the other hand....

I guess those sort of decisions are more easily made of we could establish how large the second and Third Age "Appendices" should be. The Istari essay is a great essay, no doubt, but my problem is with its relevance. If we're going for a "be as informative and comprehensive as we can" project, then yes,undoubtedly they should be in. Not critiscizing, just suggesting. The info about the Wizards would still be available for readers in Unfinished Tales . The Istaru and their reason for being in M-e are already mentioned in " of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" I believe.

On another but related note, why separate chapters for "the Siege of Angband", "the building of Gondolin" and "of the Dwarves"?

Is there perhaps a thread on why these chapters have been added? Or are we literally copying from WotJ, ~the Building of Gondolin~ etc. Especially a separate chapter about the Siege of Angband sounds trange to me.

Cheers

Ps, would it be a suitable idea to have all three Tales of Years following each other up, with nothing in between? It would provide a very clear overview of the events? There is nothing wrong with having them separate, but this seems a litlle clearer. Just something I personally would have preferred. An overview of all ages at once.


"In those days the Noldor still roamed the Hither Lands, Mightiest among the Children of Iluvatar, fair and tall and their beautiful voices were still heard by mere mortals"

Edited by: Pengolodh at: 6/15/01 9:06:22 am

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Posts: 64 | From: | Registered: Apr 2001

lindil
Seeker of the Straight Path


Member # 76


Member Rated:

posted June 16, 2001 09:24 AM
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Seeker of the Straight Path
Posts: 646

Re: Introduction to the Forum and the Rev. Silmarillion Proj

P asked : Is there perhaps a thread on why these chapters have been added? Or are we literally copying from WotJ.

L: yes I took the chapter titles and placement largely out of X and XI, as these represent JRRT's last efforts. While I am like many others used to the QS77-o1 arrangement , I see no reason to stick to it when the author had a later conception, or practicality suggests something else, as in the case of seperating Tuor's coming and the FoG due to serious stylistic [and qualitative discrepancies], I think much of the updated BoLT material is good enough to use ,but looks more awkward when placed in direct continuation w/ the UTTuor ,which[along w/ everything from that 50's era] I think has some of his most polished prose.

Well I am a little ticked EZ board has once again consumed labouriously produced material which i forgot to save - namely the first post of this thread the introduction! grrrrrr. Did anyone happen to copy it?

In general though I think a meticulous going over of th my [not THE ] outline might be better saved for a post FoG period. It is only my opinion based on the idea's I ahve come up w/ and the idea's I liked here on the board. A couple other q's are best answered by notice of the question marks associated w/ a given entry. This means it is in doubt. the entire late third age section does I believe have a comment preceding it to that effect. Well I have to go and see if by chance I did save all of that FAQ/intro and thread material.


Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working onthe 2nd Elven/Christian discussion boardOsanwe, and Gilthalion's Tar Ost-in-Eruhir. and Finrod prophecieth to Andreth " Therefore Eru,if He will not relinquish His work to Melkor... must come in to conquer him.


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Posts: 992 | From: a hidden fastness [N. CA] | Registered: Jul 2000

Pengolodh
Haunting Spirit


Member # 97

Rate Member
posted June 28, 2001 08:05 AM
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Haunting Spirit
Posts: 64

Re: Introduction to the Forum and the Rev. Silmarillion Proj

Lindil, I don't usually correct spelling or omittions of little relevance but I think you may want to change " but has indicated that he will (NOT) change any more than the Sil 2001, in your first post. It might be a bit confusing and if he in fact was, well, we could cooperate then (he said arrogantly
"In those days the Noldor still roamed the Hither Lands, Mightiest among the Children of Iluvatar, fair and tall and their beautiful voices were still heard by mere mortals"


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Posts: 64 | From: | Registered: Apr 2001

Telchar
Stonehearted Dwarf Smith


Member # 18


Member Rated:

posted June 29, 2001 07:22 AM
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Ghost-Prince of Cardolan
Posts: 515

Re: Introduction to the Forum and the Rev. Silmarillion Proj

GREAT OUTLINE!

Damnit - I want in!!! - Well as I've told you earlier lindil my spare time available for this project is limited - but I hope very much to get more time on my hands when I've moved and gotten my DSL line up! In the meantime I would, if possible, love to survey what you guys are doing in the "Translation for the Elvish-forum" - for now on a D/E-level - later maybe more... so...?
Ohh BtW my bookshop just called me today to say that XII that I had ordered home had arrived ...

Telchar

Anar kaluva tielyanna!


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Posts: 1723 | From: Copenhagen, Denmark | Registered: Apr 2001

lindil
Seeker of the Straight Path


Member # 76


Member Rated:

posted July 02, 2001 01:34 AM
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Seeker of the Straight Path
Posts: 666

Re: Introduction to the Forum and the Rev. Silmarillion Proj

Telchar you are on

Participate as you can. I will email w/ the "council member packet" please reply to let me know if you receive it.
applicable to all new members.

Also - would any of the current members be willing to do the membership processing/secretarial work of sending out the 'packets'?

My machine is very slow and emailing [believe it or not] eat's seriously into what time I have for this. thanks for considering it.


-lindil
Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working onthe 2nd Elven/Christian discussion boardOsanwe, and Gilthalion's Tar Ost-in-Eruhir. and Finrod prophecieth to Andreth " Therefore Eru,if He will not relinquish His work to Melkor... must come in to conquer him.


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Posts: 992 | From: a hidden fastness [N. CA] | Registered: Jul 2000

Telchar
Stonehearted Dwarf Smith


Member # 18


Member Rated:

posted July 05, 2001 03:01 AM
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Ghost-Prince of Cardolan
Posts: 593

Re: Introduction to the Forum and the Rev. Silmarillion Proj

Hi Lindil
Was I to recieve something by mail??? At least I haven't yet! just so you know if you have tried to mail me...

T

Anar kaluva tielyanna!


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Posts: 1723 | From: Copenhagen, Denmark | Registered: Apr 2001

lindil
Seeker of the Straight Path


Member # 76


Member Rated:

posted July 07, 2001 01:25 AM
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Seeker of the Straight Path
Posts: 669

Introduction to the Forum and the Rev. Silmarillion Project

HTML Comments are not allowed
Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working onthe 2nd Elven/Christian discussion boardOsanwe, and Gilthalion's Tar Ost-in-Eruhir. and Finrod prophecieth to Andreth " Therefore Eru,if He will not relinquish His work to Melkor... must come in to conquer him.


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Posts: 992 | From: a hidden fastness [N. CA] | Registered: Jul 2000

HerenIstarion
Deadnight Chanter


Member # 111


posted July 27, 2001 08:17 AM
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Deadnight Chanter
Posts: 1397

Re: Introduction to the Forum and the Rev. Silmarillion Pro

D for me so far as well, if you please
GeorgeLashkhi


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Posts: 2181 | From: Tbilisi, Georgia | Registered: Sep 2000

Eldar14
Wight


Member # 9

posted August 22, 2001 10:33 PM
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Wight
Posts: 120

Re: Introduction to the Forum and the Rev. Silmarillion Pro

Lindil,
I really want to join in on this project, but I'm afraid I wouldn't be able to help very often, starting a new school year and all. Probably only about once a week. But of course, before I officially request to join in, I'm gonna have to read all the posts in this section of the forum. Hopefully it won't take me too long

Eldar glances at the number of posts in this section

ack! this is gonna take forever!!




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Posts: 237 | From: Middle Earth | Registered: Jun 2001

lindil
Seeker of the Straight Path


Member # 76


Member Rated:

posted August 23, 2001 11:58 AM
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Seeker of the Straight Path
Posts: 693

Re: Introduction to the Forum and the Rev. Silmarillion Pro

welcome eldar 14!
once a week would be alot more than I have been around in the last month!
my sincerest apologies to all for a severe breach of etiquette.
I have hardly turned my computer lately due to domestic chaos of several and sundry types. i hope to pop in a few times a week minimum till things regularize for me.

H-I I will send any missing password to you if you do not already have it.again apologies for neglect.


can anyone who has joined or considers themselves actively involved [and whose name does not already appear in the intro thread] and wishes to be listed in the members section of the intro please pipe up here,so I can get you on.

Osanwe,
Tar Ost-in-Eruhir.
'In the begining was the Word. And the Word was with God.And the Word is God'.


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Posts: 992 | From: a hidden fastness [N. CA] | Registered: Jul 2000

Ulmo
Haunting Spirit


Member # 933

Rate Member
posted January 01, 2002 09:32 AM
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Wow, this is a very interesting project! You guys definitely know your stuff. I would like to provide input, but I think I better finish reading UT and HoME first.
When you guys are finished, you should definitely try to get this published. Someone needs to shoot Christopher an e-mail about this.

Keep up the good work guys!

[ January 01, 2002: Message edited by: Ulmo ]

--------------------

Lord of the seas and one of the greatest of the Valar; in the dark days of the First Age, he kept watch on Elves and Men while the others of his order remained in Valinor. He is famed for bringing Tuor to Gondolin, and so ultimately bringing about the downfall of Morgoth in the War of Wrath.


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Posts: 75 | From: Valinor | Registered: Dec 2001 | IP: Logged

Variag of Khand
Newly Deceased


Member # 973

Rate Member
posted January 22, 2002 11:48 AM
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Lindil et.al. I think this is a worthy project and all the best with it. The best way I can help you is give you some pointers on running projects generally. Most projects run on the energy and enthusiasm of the participants, and fall over because of lack of organisation. At the very least, a bit of clarity at the outset will save time later.
I'd advise you to draw up a 'Terms of Reference' for the project. This should be a brief statement (such as would fit on 2 sides of A4 paper, font size 10 or 12!) which sets out a number of key things about the project, in a way that is clear and unambiguous for all that are involved, especially as, on a long, collective effort inevitably people will come and go.

What should it include?

1. Goals - the overall vision of what you are doing and why.
2. Objectives - what you specifically aim to achieve. How will you know you have finished, is a good question to ask here.
3. Scope - by which is meant rules for determining what you do and do not do. E.G. you could exclude expansion of 2nd and 3rd age narrative.
4. Approach - you should think about what the key steps you are going to take and in what order
5. Risks and issues - ask yourself what problems you think you face, and what you can do about them.
6. Assumptions. If you are making any, note them, and try to validate them.
7. Roles and responsibilities. Very important. Try to understand (1) how decisions will be taken, and (2) who is responsible for keeping things on track.

It might seem a pain to do this but EVERY project manager worth his salt will tell you the same. Trust me, it will be worth it. From the posts I've read you do know most of this anyway. But writing it down so you can refer to it will serve you well. PS just because you've written it down doesn't mean you can't change it if needed!

I hope that's helpful and good luck!


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Posts: 6 | From: Coventry, UK | Registered: Dec 2001 | IP: Logged

Mithadan
Spirit of Mist


Member # 4


posted January 24, 2002 08:55 PM
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I'm in.
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"And tales and rumours arose along the shores of the sea concerning mariners and men forlorn upon the water who, by some fate or grace or favour of the Valar, had entered in upon the Straight Way and seen the face of the world sink below them..."


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Posts: 1936 | From: Tol Eressea | Registered: Jul 2000 | IP: Logged

lindil
Seeker of the Straight Path


Member # 76


Member Rated:

posted January 25, 2002 01:31 AM
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Variag- much thanks for your input, we are honored as you seem to have registered to put your above first post up, hopefully you will continue to check in and monitor our efforts and give us your thoughts.
Your outline is very succinct and may well prove a cornerstone in our next attempt to organize our project.
I am not sure if you have seen our 'principles ' thread this has our closest thing to a mission statement.
we, the active members of the group, are in agreement on most things re: deciding canon, it is the literary and aesthetic aspect which we have not yet decided how to approach, but we have recently been discussing the need to review our princioples in order to deal w/ the Balrog and dragon issues before us in the fall of Gondolin.
again thanks.
Mithadan - a pleasure as always.


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Posts: 992 | From: a hidden fastness [N. CA] | Registered: Jul 2000 | IP: Logged

Thingol
Shade of Carn Dm


Member # 1071


Rate Member
posted February 01, 2002 05:56 PM
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I am curious to know once the council has voted on a topic if the general public could find out what the final outcome is? I wouldn't want to see who voted which way, merely the final outcome itself. I am very curious about the number of Balrogs you will include or not include as well as several other topics. However, I totaly understand if you wish this to remain private.
--------------------

Yet the lies that Melkor, the mighty and accursed, Morgoth Bauglir, the Power of Terror and of Hate, sowed in the hearts of Elves and Men are a seed that does not die and cannot be destroyed; and ever and anon it sprouts anew, and will bear dark fruit even unto the latest days.


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Posts: 294 | From: Long Island, New York | Registered: Jan 2002 | IP: Logged

lindil
Seeker of the Straight Path


Member # 76


Member Rated:

posted February 03, 2002 07:51 AM
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Soo far Thingol, [since we have a handful of participants] all has been done by informal consensus. There are no secret polls to show. When this does occur, your idea is a good one and I will do my best to remember to post any TftE poll results in this forum also. As for now in the Balrog disc. and in FoG - a project you are seeing all.
-lindil

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lindil
--The Osanwe Discussion board ~ exploring the nature and questions of Osanwe, and Traditional Christianity.The Translations from The Elvish /New Silmarillion Project


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Posts: 992 | From: a hidden fastness [N. CA] | Registered: Jul 2000 | IP: Logged

Why Emus
Newly Deceased


Member # 1422


posted February 06, 2002 12:06 AM
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Count me in as a general observer, for now.
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Posts: 5 | From: Berkeley, CA, USA | Registered: Jan 2002 | IP: Logged

Warlord_of_Blood
Newly Deceased


Member # 2285

Rate Member
posted April 05, 2002 02:30 PM
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I would seriously like to help you in this endeavor. I am a tolkien fanatic and would be pleased If I could be of service. Mhoram can back me up on that
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Posts: 10 | From: Michigan | Registered: Mar 2002 | IP: Logged

Mhoram
Dead and Loving It


Member # 208


Member Rated:

posted April 05, 2002 02:58 PM
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I'm afraid the project seems to be at a standstill, just go through the threads and offer whatever you can and make new threads as needed. One day the excitement will come back around here and your contributions will be taken into account. That's what i've been doing.
--------------------

\m/ Lyrics...wasted time between guitar solos! \m/


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Posts: 426 | From: The land of fast cars and loud guitars. | Registered: Apr 2001 | IP: Logged

Aiwendil
Wight


Member # 320

Member Rated:

posted April 06, 2002 02:13 PM
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Well, Lindil (sort of our nominal leader) has been away for a little bit, so yes, it's been slow lately. I'm sure as soon as he's back things will pick up. We've more or less concluded work on the Fall of Gondolin, and the next step will be to actually take all the emendations and create a single text. I don't doubt that new problems will arise in that process.
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Posts: 236 | From: | Registered: Mar 2001 | IP: Logged

Tirinvo
Wight


Member # 2280


Member Rated:

posted April 09, 2002 12:01 PM
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I have told Lindil i wanted to help, and i have tried on the A level, but i am afraid that i could not revise very good because i don't want to change something important!
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Hlar i engwi eny quet
Utuvien melm hendiryasse
Anquilda alcareryass


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Posts: 116 | From: Eregion | Registered: Mar 2002 | IP: Logged

lindil
Seeker of the Straight Path


Member # 76


Member Rated:

posted June 24, 2002 03:28 AM
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For the newer folks and visitors I am upping the thread.
[ October 11, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

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lindil
--The Osanwe Discussion board ~ exploring the nature and questions of Osanwe, and Traditional Christianity.The Translations from The Elvish /New Silmarillion Project


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Posts: 992 | From: a hidden fastness [N. CA] | Registered: Jul 2000 | IP: Logged

Valedain
Pile O'Bones


Member # 3538


Rate Member
posted July 01, 2002 03:26 PM
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I'd like to participate as a C or D class flunkie. I haven't done all the requisite reading -- only Silm, UT, and HoMe 1-3 so far -- but I should be able to handle some general editing chores. It'll give me a Tolkien fix when I'm not working on my own extremely slow Silm-related project.
--------------------

Kaiser Valarauka Valedain
Intern of the White Hand,
Dunlend Development Agency


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Posts: 13 | From: | Registered: Jul 2002 | IP: Logged

Madhros
Wight


Member # 3182


Rate Member
posted July 05, 2002 03:46 PM
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Wow, I'm way impressed at what you have been doing, and i would like to help. I really love the Silmarillion, and I have just finished reading Morgoth's Ring. I will purchase the War of the Jewels soon.
If I may be so bold, i would like to participate as a C Member.
Amazing work, I'm truly impressed.
Please let me know If i can help.
--------------------

and he lived to wield his sword with left hand more deadly than his right had been.


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Posts: 160 | From: Formenos | Registered: May 2002 | IP: Logged

Amanaduial the archer
Ghost Prince of Cardolan


Member # 1907


Member Rated:

posted July 05, 2002 03:55 PM
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Woah! This looks amazing! Am I allowed to join? Im also kinda a tolkien fanatic as well, although i may not be alot on some people. Please can I join? Probably section c?
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Give a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
-*м@ήǻΐαł*


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Posts: 748 | From: the depths of a troubled mind | Registered: Mar 2002 | IP: Logged

Aiwendil
Wight


Member # 320

Member Rated:

posted July 07, 2002 02:38 PM
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Valedain, Maedhros, and Amanaduial: you're all, of course, welcome to join in. Don't worry if you haven't read all the HoMe stuff yet.
Our current status is that we're nearly finished with a revised version of the Fall of Gondolin, incorporating much of the material in the Book of Lost Tales version. Most of the discussion relating to this project is found in the thread 'A Project: Revising the Fall of Gondolin'. There are a few matters still to be decided for the Fall of Gondolin, two of which have their own spin-off threads, 'Mechanical Monsters' and 'The 7 Names of Gondolin'. We'd be most appreciative for any insights, comments, or discussion on either of these threads.

Aside from that, we have the task of actually posting the revised narrative, incorporating the various corrections we've made (there should be a recent thread where I catalogued the locations of these various corrections). The narrative itself is right now being posted in the private forum; if you want access to that, all you have to do is e-mail lindil and tell him that you'd like to be a member, and he'll send you the password.

Please don't be daunted by the length of some of the discussions you'll find here! It's really not necessary in most cases to read the entire thread; you can just skim most of them and pick up the main points.


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Posts: 236 | From: | Registered: Mar 2001 | IP: Logged

lindil
Seeker of the Straight Path


Member # 76


Member Rated:

posted July 08, 2002 06:22 PM
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Greetings to Amanaduial, maedhros and Valedain. As Aiwendil, the main project worker has succinctly said the main info as to our current phase is listed in the aforementioned threads. Do not be so concerned over the exact natureof involvement. just read up, follow the discussions [ they come in decided bursts] and then chime in as appropriate. [ Feel like you have nothing to add? hey encouragement is always welcome - and needed in this basement barrow !]
I will going aweay for a couple of weeks at the end of June and will prob have no access to a pc. so it would be great to get a solid beging to the transition down as it seems as impossible to transfer the old sections re: the transition w/ out a crazy amount of re-editing [ I tried several times anmd they all failed.] I suppose we must go ahead and start the thread from scratch. ahhhhhhh........
I hope to hop on it tonight.

aagin welcome to the project and do email for the passwords.

[ July 08, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

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lindil
--The Osanwe Discussion board ~ exploring the nature and questions of Osanwe, and Traditional Christianity.The Translations from The Elvish /New Silmarillion Project


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Posts: 992 | From: a hidden fastness [N. CA] | Registered: Jul 2000 | IP: Logged

Valedain
Pile O'Bones


Member # 3538


Rate Member
posted July 09, 2002 01:16 PM
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quote:
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I will going aweay for a couple of weeks at the end of June.
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I am afraid you've missed your vacation, Lindil.

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Kaiser Valarauka Valedain
Intern of the White Hand,
Dunlend Development Agency


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Posts: 13 | From: | Registered: Jul 2002 | IP: Logged

lindil
Seeker of the Straight Path


Member # 76


Member Rated:

posted July 10, 2002 11:58 AM
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rrggghhh I hate that , I will have to taje another one. july 31-aug 12.
--------------------

lindil
--The Osanwe Discussion board ~ exploring the nature and questions of Osanwe, and Traditional Christianity.The Translations from The Elvish /New Silmarillion Project


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Posts: 992 | From: a hidden fastness [N. CA] | Registered: Jul 2000 | IP: Logged

Madhros
Wight


Member # 3182


Rate Member
posted July 27, 2002 10:41 AM
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Hello, I have recently joined the project, yet i went to a vacation and now Im lost. Can someone tell me what is it that youre working so that I can help with that.
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and he lived to wield his sword with left hand more deadly than his right had been.


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Posts: 160 | From: Formenos | Registered: May 2002 | IP: Logged

Aiwendil
Wight


Member # 320

Member Rated:

posted July 28, 2002 07:11 PM
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Well, things have been sort of slow here in the past few weeks. I've been typing up a text for the Fall of Gondolin incorporating the approved changes, and I'll post in on the other forum as soon as I'm done.
In the meantime, any comments on the '7 Names of Gondolin' thread or the 'Mechanical Monsters at the Fall of Gondolin' would be most appreciated.


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Posts: 236 | From: | Registered: Mar 2001 | IP: Logged

Madhros
Wight


Member # 3182


Rate Member
posted July 28, 2002 08:48 PM
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I'm on it then!
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and he lived to wield his sword with left hand more deadly than his right had been.


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Posts: 160 | From: Formenos | Registered: May 2002 | IP: Logged

lindil
Seeker of the Straight Path


Member # 76


Member Rated:

posted August 19, 2002 09:34 AM
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For folks interested ion signing up, I have yet to revise the participation categories but essentially they will be this, eliminated.
Just participate as you can and in area's that you have some understanding or time to learn.For instance don't vote on Mechanical dragons [ a vote coming soon btw] if you have not read the thread or pondered it. If you have go for it. That is the basic sort of rule. I hope to update the opening Outline post soon till then - this is the 'official' update. Nd hey if we get more active members we can vote on something like this instead of me just pontificating

[ August 19, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

[ August 19, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

--------------------

lindil
--The Osanwe Discussion board ~ exploring the nature and questions of Osanwe, and Traditional Christianity.The Translations from The Elvish /New Silmarillion Project


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Posts: 992 | From: a hidden fastness [N. CA] | Registered: Jul 2000 | IP: Logged

lindil
Seeker of the Straight Path


Member # 76


Member Rated:

posted October 10, 2002 10:40 AM
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I have instituted a new system of *'ing whereby those who come in new, can look at all of the posts in the forum at a glance and know which are the essential and active threads and "official project" threads [denoted by **] and which are the inactive but "official project threads" [ i.e. important but can be read later].
A thread w/ no asterix [most of them] indicates that the thread is of a general nature to the project and contains much [ or some info] but is not an official discussion thread tied directly to the current efforts [ Genealogy of the Noldor is a perfect example].

Only moderators or those so designated by the group should use the asteriks to indicate status.

I hope to put this up in the FAQ's soon.




Pengolodh
Haunting Spirit


Member # 97

Rate Member
posted June 10, 2001 12:17 PM
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Animated Skeleton
Posts: 42

Re: Introduction to the Forum and the Rev. Silmarillion Proj

Well, let me first state that I am very pleasantly suprised with how this is lined up. I am pretty new here, extremely interested in the project and have of course, some questions. But overall, this is very good. Some of what I have to ask may appear silly, but I hope not too much. One of the things I like this so much is because I am a bit critical of how CT handled some things in the Sil '77 (despite that being a superb work and he did very well, the last three volumes of HoME have simply been an eye-opener). I guess this project is still at its beginning (realistically) and there is loads of work to be done. I would certainly hope that I can be of help, for the love of the Sil, as you said it would be great to bring som e order to the legendarium chaos.

1. Are we creating a canon silmarillion or are we including the canon works in an "all-round" Silmarillion, which includes the most canon and interesting works that present no serious complication with the rest. I suppose it is the second because one is almost impossible for various reasons. Thought? This is party explained by the Third principle you mentioned, but I just want to have this clear

2. The index of HoME (and the content of the volumes) you are looking for is this one:
www.forodrim.org/daeron/md_hm.html

The index of all the writings in a chronological order is here:
www.forodrim.org/daeron/md_hmch.html

3. "theLotR and RGEO and the Hobbit are 'canon' the current 1977/2001 Silmarillion is not - that is our whole goal , to incorporate as much as possible of JRRT's writings [especially from X,XI,XII and UT ] as possible into the framework of the Silmarillion as possible to create a literary canon out of what is currently 'Legendarium chaos" end quote

A worthwile aim. Nothing to comment on.

4. You may want to reconsider your thoughts about this being published, I think it might very well be. This project may take years and a lot can happen in the mean time.Keep your fingers crossed anyway.

5. I agree that a lot of folk will be scared of by (yet?) another commitment. This is pretty difficult and you have to know your stuff as well. The number of folks that have read HoME aren't that many. There are a couple very good ones (posters) here though. I'll put the link in my sig at Tolkienonline

6. Will the new Silmarillion consist out of three volumes? Why? Or did you just divide the book into three main parts and I shouldn't see them as separate volumes?

7. What is the official name for the new Sil? Can we come to an abbreviation? That's always handy

8. Re: "6a + FINWE AND MIRIEL"

Perhaps we can consider the early and later versions of it in Morgoth's Ring

9. Re: "15 OF FINROD AND ANDRETH "

A must.

10. Re: "17 - BEREN AND LUTHIEN"

Have you considered the parts in which Thingol actually goes out to fight Boldog and the Orcs to save Luthien, taking with him Mablung and Beleg Cuthalion? You may name them the Wars of Luthien. It also involved Celegorm and Curufin, who wished to set him up, by the use of Luthien in a different way from the Sil. I think Thingol encountered Thu (Sauron as well). It is quite different and I have to check , but I remember that a lot of people found it very exciting, much better than the current one. All found in .III of course

11. I definitly recommend inserting the small part in the Narn of Hurin gathering his Men and departing for the Nirnaeth. Perhaps also show how he felt about the war,how he was completely convinced that no one could defeat the Elves. Tell this in a narrative manner of course.

12. Re: "OF THE WANDERINGS OF HURIN and OF THE RUIN OF DORIATH
add from II ?,IV,V [and later sketches of Hurin?] or
[and I consider this more feasable]use CRT's chapter from the 77"

War of the Jewels of course for the Wanderings of Hurin. Aside from that, I think CT 's chapter was very good, the Ruin of Doriath one. You may want to consider different versions of the taking of the Nauglamir and slaying of Thingol, Mablung's defense etc.

13. Re: "THE FALL OF GONDOLIN"

Very important to get this right, virtually everyone loves this. I would keep things from BolT II as limited as you can because it really has little relation to the later writings anymore, I hope you will agree. Use only that which is plausible. No metal dragons of course. But there is a thread on this anyway. The Balrog thing can easily be fixed by going with the later versions of them, the much more powerful. ones. Abandon Tuor slaying five of them with his axe for instance, for obvious reasons.

14.Re; "Volume III"

are you sure about so much linguistical material in it? Etymologies? And you would think I would cheer for the Lhammas

Further, If you are going to list the chapter about the Istari and of Glorfindel, which again, is an excellent call, you should really addt he part about Cirdan which can be found in Last Writings , HoMe XII, it is great and shed light on his character.

A problem would be including the incredibly complicated Wanderings of Galadriel and Celeborn. I am not so sure it is possible to create a decent version out of this mess. Tar-Elenion might still be interested in posting an essay of some sort about this, he mentioned it in either the "geneologies" or "Parentage of Gil-galad" thread. As said, this is quite difficult but essentiall of you feel you must include it.

15. Get Cian to come here !! (provided he has the time)

Cheers
Pengolodh

"In those days the Noldor still roamed the Hither Lands, Mightiest among the Children of Iluvatar, fair and tall and their beautiful voices were still heard by mere mortals"

Edited by: Pengolodh at: 6/10/01 12:30:18 pm

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lindil
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posted June 11, 2001 02:49 AM
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Re: Introduction to the Forum and the Rev. Silmarillion Proj

P:Well, let me first state that I am very pleasantly suprised
with how this is lined up.
L;Well where we are now is the result of 1 year and 700 plus posts, from a large variety of contributors] [few of them short or trivial - often mini-essays, if not full-blown ones] and alot of discussion and exploration, it may not have yeilded much in terms of texts but it sure has been an eyeopener to what really needs to be done to get from 77/01 to a revised Silm.

P: 1. Are we creating a canon silmarillion or are we including
the canon works in an "all-round" Silmarillion, which includes
the most canon and interesting works that present no
serious complication with the rest. I suppose it is the second
because one is almost impossible for various reasons.
Thought? This is party explained by the Third principle you
mentioned, but I just want to have this clear


lindil: My stated preference is def, for what you seem to reffering to as an all-around work, not a 'quenta Silmarillion' in the pure sense- by that meaning a synopsis of the full tales. Indeed that is a valid criticism of the effort - but I see little choice since we are left w/ such a mixed collection of materials and since JRRT left so many gaps in the Long versions [such as Tuor, the Narn] and gaps or very old versions in the shorter QS texts [such as Doriath and Earendil]. I also feel and this is pure personal preference which however seems be shared by a majority [ if admittedly not universally] that having all of the tales woven together as best as they can be is far prefferable aesthetically than the current state of the Legendarium. BTW - I agree that CRT did a very good job on the 77, given missing manuscripts,pressure to get a Silmarillion out and the unbelievable business of having so many manuscripts and no computer- it is a good thing but I think we all agree,Unfinished/History/VT gives an opprotunity to make of the Silmarillion much more than it currently is, and shows it to be the in many ways more vast and deep work


P: 2. The index of HoME (and the content of the volumes) you
are looking for is this one:

lindil: --Thanks that's the one


P:4. You may want to reconsider your thoughts about this
being published, I think it might very well be. This project
may take years and a lot can happen in the mean time.Keep
your fingers crossed anyway.

lindil:I am certainly open to the possibility,we have been warned [rathrer intelligently I think that it is extremely doubtful that any blackmarket efforts will ever get sanction, but as the blind man said 'we shall see'.

P: 5. I agree that a lot of folk will be scared of by (yet?) another
commitment. This is pretty difficult and you have to know
your stuff as well. The number of folks that have read HoME
aren't that many. There are a couple very good ones
(posters) here though.
lindil: I do not think the forum has ever been so strong myself, I am very encouraged.

P: I'll put the link in my sig at
Tolkienonline
lindil: excellent, it is probably one of our best advertising tools, and you can't beat the price.

P: 6. Will the new Silmarillion consist out of three volumes?
Why? Or did you just divide the book into three main parts
and I shouldn't see them as separate volumes?

lindil: the 3 vol. thing comes from a combination of impulses, #1 it won't all fit in an ordinary sized book,#2 Bilbo's '3 [green ?}Volumes of Translations from the Elvish, I vaguely recall JRRT saying somewhere it would take 3 books, or maybe that it would be 3x's larger than LotR [which if you had a complete QS and the long versions of the 3 'great tales' a lay or 2, a complete Elvish dictionary and Lhammas,the Athrabeth, Quendi and Eldar, the second age material, Annals,etc, etc. you have something that prob. would be close to 3x the LotR. as it is what I have outlined is I would guess as big, and there is alot we simply do not have. But let me reiterate, the outline is my compilation of what i would do left alone, I am much more interested in a group process for a variety of reasons and I expect the contents will shift as more detil is discussed, there are - one may note , several question marks after various texts and ideas and these indicate that I have no solid opinion on the matter, so even if my outline was accepted in whole [which would be unlikely] there is still much to decide.

P: 7. What is the official name for the new Sil? Can we come to
an abbreviation? That's always handy
lindil: a good question to solicit input on.
I would not mind a 'official' name for the project, say the New [or Revised] Silmarillion Council, clearly another item for a group decision.

P: 10. Re: "17 - BEREN AND LUTHIEN"

Have you considered the parts in which Thingol actually goes
out to fight Boldog and the Orcs to save Luthien, taking with
him Mablung and Beleg Cuthalion? You may name them the
Wars of Luthien. It also involved Celegorm and Curufin, who
wished to set him up, by the use of Luthien in a different
way from the Sil. I think Thingol encountered Thu (Sauron as
well). It is quite different and I have to check , but I
remember that a lot of people found it very exciting, much
better than the current one. All found in .III of course.

Lindil:No , I hadn't thought of it. is it in the 30's Lay or the 50's Lay recommenced? I read through much of it recently and missed it completely.

see you too can be a 'C' reader and try and revise the Silmarillion. [american political humour]


P: 14.Re; "Volume III"
are you sure about so much linguistical material in it?
Etymologies?
lindil: not sure at all - i think there is a '?' there .I think it would be great if it could be done but it will have to be left for the linguistic specialists to decide methinks.JRRT did outline [ on p202 HB lost road] a four part silmarillion w/ the Lhammas at the end and the 77/01 ,UT, and Home pretty much all have elvish wordlists at the end.

P: Further, If you are going to list the chapter about the Istari
and of Glorfindel, which again, is an excellent call, you should
really addt he part about Cirdan which can be found in Last
Writings , HoMe XII, it is great and shed light on his
character.
lindil: you are right , when I was revising the outline I peeked in Last writings to see if I was missing anything and that slipped by.
Both Cirdan and Glorfindel might do better inteerspersed as the events happen chronologicaly, such as his command from the valar not to attempt to follow the Teleri departing to Valinor.

P:A problem would be including the incredibly complicated
Wanderings of Galadriel and Celeborn. I am not so sure it is
possible to create a decent version out of this mess.

lindil: we only take what can be used w/ out contradiction . I thibk there is much of value esp. re: the War of the elves and Sauron, Amroth and such. We will see - if we make it that far.
P: Tar-Elenion might still be interested in posting an essay of
some sort about this, he mentioned it in either the
"geneologies" or "Parentage of Gil-galad" thread.
lindil: I hope so!

P: 15. Get Cian to come here !! (provided he has the time)

lindil: I will ask. I read over an old reply to an eriol/Aelfwine query in the books, it was excellent.

welcome aboard the project. Pengoldh,Aiwendil and Jallanite


sincerly,
lindil
P.S. as I mentioned on the FoG thread, I[and other Silm prj. old timers] have some info I make available to members of the council so if you do not have a linkt to your email [and maybe do not want one!] send me an email privately.
Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working on yet a 2nd new Elven/Christian discussion boardOsanwe , and Tar Ost-in-Eruhir. and Finrod saith " Therefore Eru,if He will not relinquish His work to Melkor...then Eru must come in to conquer him.

Edited by: lindil at: 6/11/01 8:14:47 am

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Posts: 990 | From: a hidden fastness [N. CA] | Registered: Jul 2000

Pengolodh
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posted June 11, 2001 04:21 AM
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Re: Introduction to the Forum and the Rev. Silmarillion Proj

I'm unsure about the date of the writings about Thingol going out and the Wars of Luthien. I would have to check. The story, of course, isn't finished, but more is later told about it in the Notes and Commentary.
"In those days the Noldor still roamed the Hither Lands, Mightiest among the Children of Iluvatar, fair and tall and their beautiful voices were still heard by mere mortals"


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Pengolodh
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posted June 11, 2001 01:40 PM
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Re: Introduction to the Forum and the Rev. Silmarillion Proj

Lindil, I would suggest omitting these four parts of the outline:

-The Quest for Erebor
- The Hunt for the Ring
-The Battles of the Fords of Isen
-Cirion and Eorl

As much as I loved to read about the account of the Battle at the Fords of Isen, I really don't think it deserves a place in the Silmarillion. I believe Tolkien mentioned several times that the SIlmarillion was primarily a background story for the Elves and Men in the First Age and their war against Morgoth. I think a quick summary of the second age by the Akallabeth and "of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" was already very good in the publ. Silmarillion and certainly doesn't need further expanding with chapters such as Cirion and Eorl or an account of the Quest of Erebor such as found in UT.

As said, the tales are nice, but not for a Silmarillion. I understand that it is a general outline, but I think it would be wrong to expand on so much of the Third Age. I would try to keep that in the area of what we see in CT's Silmarillion. The Sil was a background story for all the ages perhaps, but specifically and very much directed to everything centering the First Age. Too much of the Second and Third Age would take away from that, and is, aside from that, unnecessary.

another note, why not make one chapter out of Tuor and his coming to Gondolin and "the fall of Gondolin"?

Cheers


"In those days the Noldor still roamed the Hither Lands, Mightiest among the Children of Iluvatar, fair and tall and their beautiful voices were still heard by mere mortals"


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lindil
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posted June 11, 2001 11:54 PM
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Re: Introduction to the Forum and the Rev. Silmarillion Proj

P. I think you are right and I believe I stated a question as to how far to go w/ the late 3rd age material. I think a case could be made for Cirion and Eorl as it is the only tale from the that point of the 3rd age and it reveals quite a bit about Gondor's traditions re: Elendil; and Erebor , only because it takes the Legendarium right up to the Hobbit. But the LotR material is out of place for sure. I will take Hunt for the ring and the Battle for the Fords off soon.
As for splitting Gondolin it was suggested in the FoG thread that as there is such a large chronological gap, we might as well make use of it to soften the radical shift in writing style that would otherwise take place.
It seems at least worth reading through the FoG both ways once [God willing] the drafts are done.


Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working on yet a 2nd new Elven/Christian discussion boardOsanwe , and Tar Ost-in-Eruhir. and Finrod saith " Therefore Eru,if He will not relinquish His work to Melkor...then Eru must come in to conquer him.


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Posts: 990 | From: a hidden fastness [N. CA] | Registered: Jul 2000

Pengolodh
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posted June 15, 2001 07:26 AM
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Posts: 53

Re: Introduction to the Forum and the Rev. Silmarillion Proj

Lindil

I suppose a case can be made for Cirion and Eorl because of the Tradition of Isildur and such that is in it, but why have this in anyway? Would it not be to extensive? Same goes for an epilogue to the LoTR.

I could imagine the Palantiri essay being included simply because the Palantiri have their origin in the ages even before the First. The Istari essay on the other hand....

I guess those sort of decisions are more easily made of we could establish how large the second and Third Age "Appendices" should be. The Istari essay is a great essay, no doubt, but my problem is with its relevance. If we're going for a "be as informative and comprehensive as we can" project, then yes,undoubtedly they should be in. Not critiscizing, just suggesting. The info about the Wizards would still be available for readers in Unfinished Tales . The Istaru and their reason for being in M-e are already mentioned in " of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" I believe.

On another but related note, why separate chapters for "the Siege of Angband", "the building of Gondolin" and "of the Dwarves"?

Is there perhaps a thread on why these chapters have been added? Or are we literally copying from WotJ, ~the Building of Gondolin~ etc. Especially a separate chapter about the Siege of Angband sounds trange to me.

Cheers

Ps, would it be a suitable idea to have all three Tales of Years following each other up, with nothing in between? It would provide a very clear overview of the events? There is nothing wrong with having them separate, but this seems a litlle clearer. Just something I personally would have preferred. An overview of all ages at once.


"In those days the Noldor still roamed the Hither Lands, Mightiest among the Children of Iluvatar, fair and tall and their beautiful voices were still heard by mere mortals"

Edited by: Pengolodh at: 6/15/01 9:06:22 am

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lindil
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posted June 16, 2001 09:24 AM
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Re: Introduction to the Forum and the Rev. Silmarillion Proj

P asked : Is there perhaps a thread on why these chapters have been added? Or are we literally copying from WotJ.

L: yes I took the chapter titles and placement largely out of X and XI, as these represent JRRT's last efforts. While I am like many others used to the QS77-o1 arrangement , I see no reason to stick to it when the author had a later conception, or practicality suggests something else, as in the case of seperating Tuor's coming and the FoG due to serious stylistic [and qualitative discrepancies], I think much of the updated BoLT material is good enough to use ,but looks more awkward when placed in direct continuation w/ the UTTuor ,which[along w/ everything from that 50's era] I think has some of his most polished prose.

Well I am a little ticked EZ board has once again consumed labouriously produced material which i forgot to save - namely the first post of this thread the introduction! grrrrrr. Did anyone happen to copy it?

In general though I think a meticulous going over of th my [not THE ] outline might be better saved for a post FoG period. It is only my opinion based on the idea's I ahve come up w/ and the idea's I liked here on the board. A couple other q's are best answered by notice of the question marks associated w/ a given entry. This means it is in doubt. the entire late third age section does I believe have a comment preceding it to that effect. Well I have to go and see if by chance I did save all of that FAQ/intro and thread material.


Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working onthe 2nd Elven/Christian discussion boardOsanwe, and Gilthalion's Tar Ost-in-Eruhir. and Finrod prophecieth to Andreth " Therefore Eru,if He will not relinquish His work to Melkor... must come in to conquer him.


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Posts: 990 | From: a hidden fastness [N. CA] | Registered: Jul 2000

Pengolodh
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posted June 28, 2001 08:05 AM
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Re: Introduction to the Forum and the Rev. Silmarillion Proj

Lindil, I don't usually correct spelling or omittions of little relevance but I think you may want to change " but has indicated that he will (NOT) change any more than the Sil 2001, in your first post. It might be a bit confusing and if he in fact was, well, we could cooperate then (he said arrogantly
"In those days the Noldor still roamed the Hither Lands, Mightiest among the Children of Iluvatar, fair and tall and their beautiful voices were still heard by mere mortals"


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Telchar
Stonehearted Dwarf Smith


Member # 18


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posted June 29, 2001 07:22 AM
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Ghost-Prince of Cardolan
Posts: 515

Re: Introduction to the Forum and the Rev. Silmarillion Proj

GREAT OUTLINE!

Damnit - I want in!!! - Well as I've told you earlier lindil my spare time available for this project is limited - but I hope very much to get more time on my hands when I've moved and gotten my DSL line up! In the meantime I would, if possible, love to survey what you guys are doing in the "Translation for the Elvish-forum" - for now on a D/E-level - later maybe more... so...?
Ohh BtW my bookshop just called me today to say that XII that I had ordered home had arrived ...

Telchar

Anar kaluva tielyanna!


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Posts: 1723 | From: Copenhagen, Denmark | Registered: Apr 2001

lindil
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posted July 02, 2001 01:34 AM
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Re: Introduction to the Forum and the Rev. Silmarillion Proj

Telchar you are on

Participate as you can. I will email w/ the "council member packet" please reply to let me know if you receive it.
applicable to all new members.

Also - would any of the current members be willing to do the membership processing/secretarial work of sending out the 'packets'?

My machine is very slow and emailing [believe it or not] eat's seriously into what time I have for this. thanks for considering it.


-lindil
Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working onthe 2nd Elven/Christian discussion boardOsanwe, and Gilthalion's Tar Ost-in-Eruhir. and Finrod prophecieth to Andreth " Therefore Eru,if He will not relinquish His work to Melkor... must come in to conquer him.


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Posts: 990 | From: a hidden fastness [N. CA] | Registered: Jul 2000

Telchar
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Member # 18


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posted July 05, 2001 03:01 AM
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Posts: 593

Re: Introduction to the Forum and the Rev. Silmarillion Proj

Hi Lindil
Was I to recieve something by mail??? At least I haven't yet! just so you know if you have tried to mail me...

T

Anar kaluva tielyanna!


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Posts: 1723 | From: Copenhagen, Denmark | Registered: Apr 2001

lindil
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posted July 07, 2001 01:25 AM
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Introduction to the Forum and the Rev. Silmarillion Project

HTML Comments are not allowed
Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working onthe 2nd Elven/Christian discussion boardOsanwe, and Gilthalion's Tar Ost-in-Eruhir. and Finrod prophecieth to Andreth " Therefore Eru,if He will not relinquish His work to Melkor... must come in to conquer him.


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Posts: 990 | From: a hidden fastness [N. CA] | Registered: Jul 2000

HerenIstarion
Deadnight Chanter


Member # 111


posted July 27, 2001 08:17 AM
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Deadnight Chanter
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Re: Introduction to the Forum and the Rev. Silmarillion Pro

D for me so far as well, if you please
GeorgeLashkhi


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Posts: 2181 | From: Tbilisi, Georgia | Registered: Sep 2000

Eldar14
Wight


Member # 9

posted August 22, 2001 10:33 PM
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Wight
Posts: 120

Re: Introduction to the Forum and the Rev. Silmarillion Pro

Lindil,
I really want to join in on this project, but I'm afraid I wouldn't be able to help very often, starting a new school year and all. Probably only about once a week. But of course, before I officially request to join in, I'm gonna have to read all the posts in this section of the forum. Hopefully it won't take me too long

Eldar glances at the number of posts in this section

ack! this is gonna take forever!!




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Posts: 237 | From: Middle Earth | Registered: Jun 2001

lindil
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posted August 23, 2001 11:58 AM
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Re: Introduction to the Forum and the Rev. Silmarillion Pro

welcome eldar 14!
once a week would be alot more than I have been around in the last month!
my sincerest apologies to all for a severe breach of etiquette.
I have hardly turned my computer lately due to domestic chaos of several and sundry types. i hope to pop in a few times a week minimum till things regularize for me.

H-I I will send any missing password to you if you do not already have it.again apologies for neglect.


can anyone who has joined or considers themselves actively involved [and whose name does not already appear in the intro thread] and wishes to be listed in the members section of the intro please pipe up here,so I can get you on.

Osanwe,
Tar Ost-in-Eruhir.
'In the begining was the Word. And the Word was with God.And the Word is God'.


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Posts: 990 | From: a hidden fastness [N. CA] | Registered: Jul 2000

Ulmo
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Member # 933

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posted January 01, 2002 09:32 AM
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Wow, this is a very interesting project! You guys definitely know your stuff. I would like to provide input, but I think I better finish reading UT and HoME first.
When you guys are finished, you should definitely try to get this published. Someone needs to shoot Christopher an e-mail about this.

Keep up the good work guys!

[ January 01, 2002: Message edited by: Ulmo ]

--------------------

Lord of the seas and one of the greatest of the Valar; in the dark days of the First Age, he kept watch on Elves and Men while the others of his order remained in Valinor. He is famed for bringing Tuor to Gondolin, and so ultimately bringing about the downfall of Morgoth in the War of Wrath.


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Variag of Khand
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posted January 22, 2002 11:48 AM
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Lindil et.al. I think this is a worthy project and all the best with it. The best way I can help you is give you some pointers on running projects generally. Most projects run on the energy and enthusiasm of the participants, and fall over because of lack of organisation. At the very least, a bit of clarity at the outset will save time later.
I'd advise you to draw up a 'Terms of Reference' for the project. This should be a brief statement (such as would fit on 2 sides of A4 paper, font size 10 or 12!) which sets out a number of key things about the project, in a way that is clear and unambiguous for all that are involved, especially as, on a long, collective effort inevitably people will come and go.

What should it include?

1. Goals - the overall vision of what you are doing and why.
2. Objectives - what you specifically aim to achieve. How will you know you have finished, is a good question to ask here.
3. Scope - by which is meant rules for determining what you do and do not do. E.G. you could exclude expansion of 2nd and 3rd age narrative.
4. Approach - you should think about what the key steps you are going to take and in what order
5. Risks and issues - ask yourself what problems you think you face, and what you can do about them.
6. Assumptions. If you are making any, note them, and try to validate them.
7. Roles and responsibilities. Very important. Try to understand (1) how decisions will be taken, and (2) who is responsible for keeping things on track.

It might seem a pain to do this but EVERY project manager worth his salt will tell you the same. Trust me, it will be worth it. From the posts I've read you do know most of this anyway. But writing it down so you can refer to it will serve you well. PS just because you've written it down doesn't mean you can't change it if needed!

I hope that's helpful and good luck!


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Mithadan
Spirit of Mist


Member # 4


posted January 24, 2002 08:55 PM
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I'm in.
--------------------

"And tales and rumours arose along the shores of the sea concerning mariners and men forlorn upon the water who, by some fate or grace or favour of the Valar, had entered in upon the Straight Way and seen the face of the world sink below them..."


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lindil
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posted January 25, 2002 01:31 AM
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Variag- much thanks for your input, we are honored as you seem to have registered to put your above first post up, hopefully you will continue to check in and monitor our efforts and give us your thoughts.
Your outline is very succinct and may well prove a cornerstone in our next attempt to organize our project.
I am not sure if you have seen our 'principles ' thread this has our closest thing to a mission statement.
we, the active members of the group, are in agreement on most things re: deciding canon, it is the literary and aesthetic aspect which we have not yet decided how to approach, but we have recently been discussing the need to review our princioples in order to deal w/ the Balrog and dragon issues before us in the fall of Gondolin.
again thanks.
Mithadan - a pleasure as always.


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Thingol
Shade of Carn Dm


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posted February 01, 2002 05:56 PM
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I am curious to know once the council has voted on a topic if the general public could find out what the final outcome is? I wouldn't want to see who voted which way, merely the final outcome itself. I am very curious about the number of Balrogs you will include or not include as well as several other topics. However, I totaly understand if you wish this to remain private.
--------------------

Yet the lies that Melkor, the mighty and accursed, Morgoth Bauglir, the Power of Terror and of Hate, sowed in the hearts of Elves and Men are a seed that does not die and cannot be destroyed; and ever and anon it sprouts anew, and will bear dark fruit even unto the latest days.


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lindil
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posted February 03, 2002 07:51 AM
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Soo far Thingol, [since we have a handful of participants] all has been done by informal consensus. There are no secret polls to show. When this does occur, your idea is a good one and I will do my best to remember to post any TftE poll results in this forum also. As for now in the Balrog disc. and in FoG - a project you are seeing all.
-lindil

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lindil
--The Osanwe Discussion board ~ exploring the nature and questions of Osanwe, and Traditional Christianity.The Translations from The Elvish /New Silmarillion Project


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Posts: 990 | From: a hidden fastness [N. CA] | Registered: Jul 2000 | IP: Logged

Why Emus
Newly Deceased


Member # 1422


posted February 06, 2002 12:06 AM
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Count me in as a general observer, for now.
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Posts: 5 | From: Berkeley, CA, USA | Registered: Jan 2002 | IP: Logged

Warlord_of_Blood
Newly Deceased


Member # 2285

Rate Member
posted April 05, 2002 02:30 PM
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I would seriously like to help you in this endeavor. I am a tolkien fanatic and would be pleased If I could be of service. Mhoram can back me up on that
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Posts: 10 | From: Michigan | Registered: Mar 2002 | IP: Logged

Mhoram
Dead and Loving It


Member # 208


Member Rated:

posted April 05, 2002 02:58 PM
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I'm afraid the project seems to be at a standstill, just go through the threads and offer whatever you can and make new threads as needed. One day the excitement will come back around here and your contributions will be taken into account. That's what i've been doing.
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\m/ Lyrics...wasted time between guitar solos! \m/


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Posts: 426 | From: The land of fast cars and loud guitars. | Registered: Apr 2001 | IP: Logged

Aiwendil
Wight


Member # 320

Member Rated:

posted April 06, 2002 02:13 PM
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Well, Lindil (sort of our nominal leader) has been away for a little bit, so yes, it's been slow lately. I'm sure as soon as he's back things will pick up. We've more or less concluded work on the Fall of Gondolin, and the next step will be to actually take all the emendations and create a single text. I don't doubt that new problems will arise in that process.
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Posts: 236 | From: | Registered: Mar 2001 | IP: Logged

Tirinvo
Wight


Member # 2280


Member Rated:

posted April 09, 2002 12:01 PM
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I have told Lindil i wanted to help, and i have tried on the A level, but i am afraid that i could not revise very good because i don't want to change something important!
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Hlar i engwi eny quet
Utuvien melm hendiryasse
Anquilda alcareryass


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Posts: 116 | From: Eregion | Registered: Mar 2002 | IP: Logged

lindil
Seeker of the Straight Path


Member # 76


Member Rated:

posted June 24, 2002 03:28 AM
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For the newer folks and visitors I am upping the thread.
[ October 11, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

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lindil
--The Osanwe Discussion board ~ exploring the nature and questions of Osanwe, and Traditional Christianity.The Translations from The Elvish /New Silmarillion Project


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Posts: 990 | From: a hidden fastness [N. CA] | Registered: Jul 2000 | IP: Logged

Valedain
Pile O'Bones


Member # 3538


Rate Member
posted July 01, 2002 03:26 PM
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I'd like to participate as a C or D class flunkie. I haven't done all the requisite reading -- only Silm, UT, and HoMe 1-3 so far -- but I should be able to handle some general editing chores. It'll give me a Tolkien fix when I'm not working on my own extremely slow Silm-related project.
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Kaiser Valarauka Valedain
Intern of the White Hand,
Dunlend Development Agency


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Posts: 13 | From: | Registered: Jul 2002 | IP: Logged

Madhros
Wight


Member # 3182


Rate Member
posted July 05, 2002 03:46 PM
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Wow, I'm way impressed at what you have been doing, and i would like to help. I really love the Silmarillion, and I have just finished reading Morgoth's Ring. I will purchase the War of the Jewels soon.
If I may be so bold, i would like to participate as a C Member.
Amazing work, I'm truly impressed.
Please let me know If i can help.
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and he lived to wield his sword with left hand more deadly than his right had been.


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Posts: 160 | From: Formenos | Registered: May 2002 | IP: Logged

Amanaduial the archer
Ghost Prince of Cardolan


Member # 1907


Member Rated:

posted July 05, 2002 03:55 PM
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Woah! This looks amazing! Am I allowed to join? Im also kinda a tolkien fanatic as well, although i may not be alot on some people. Please can I join? Probably section c?
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Give a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
-*м@ήǻΐαł*


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Posts: 748 | From: the depths of a troubled mind | Registered: Mar 2002 | IP: Logged

Aiwendil
Wight


Member # 320

Member Rated:

posted July 07, 2002 02:38 PM
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Valedain, Maedhros, and Amanaduial: you're all, of course, welcome to join in. Don't worry if you haven't read all the HoMe stuff yet.
Our current status is that we're nearly finished with a revised version of the Fall of Gondolin, incorporating much of the material in the Book of Lost Tales version. Most of the discussion relating to this project is found in the thread 'A Project: Revising the Fall of Gondolin'. There are a few matters still to be decided for the Fall of Gondolin, two of which have their own spin-off threads, 'Mechanical Monsters' and 'The 7 Names of Gondolin'. We'd be most appreciative for any insights, comments, or discussion on either of these threads.

Aside from that, we have the task of actually posting the revised narrative, incorporating the various corrections we've made (there should be a recent thread where I catalogued the locations of these various corrections). The narrative itself is right now being posted in the private forum; if you want access to that, all you have to do is e-mail lindil and tell him that you'd like to be a member, and he'll send you the password.

Please don't be daunted by the length of some of the discussions you'll find here! It's really not necessary in most cases to read the entire thread; you can just skim most of them and pick up the main points.


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lindil
Seeker of the Straight Path


Member # 76


Member Rated:

posted July 08, 2002 06:22 PM
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Greetings to Amanaduial, maedhros and Valedain. As Aiwendil, the main project worker has succinctly said the main info as to our current phase is listed in the aforementioned threads. Do not be so concerned over the exact natureof involvement. just read up, follow the discussions [ they come in decided bursts] and then chime in as appropriate. [ Feel like you have nothing to add? hey encouragement is always welcome - and needed in this basement barrow !]
I will going aweay for a couple of weeks at the end of June and will prob have no access to a pc. so it would be great to get a solid beging to the transition down as it seems as impossible to transfer the old sections re: the transition w/ out a crazy amount of re-editing [ I tried several times anmd they all failed.] I suppose we must go ahead and start the thread from scratch. ahhhhhhh........
I hope to hop on it tonight.

aagin welcome to the project and do email for the passwords.

[ July 08, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

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lindil
--The Osanwe Discussion board ~ exploring the nature and questions of Osanwe, and Traditional Christianity.The Translations from The Elvish /New Silmarillion Project


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Posts: 990 | From: a hidden fastness [N. CA] | Registered: Jul 2000 | IP: Logged

Valedain
Pile O'Bones


Member # 3538


Rate Member
posted July 09, 2002 01:16 PM
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quote:
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I will going aweay for a couple of weeks at the end of June.
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I am afraid you've missed your vacation, Lindil.

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Kaiser Valarauka Valedain
Intern of the White Hand,
Dunlend Development Agency


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Posts: 13 | From: | Registered: Jul 2002 | IP: Logged

lindil
Seeker of the Straight Path


Member # 76


Member Rated:

posted July 10, 2002 11:58 AM
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rrggghhh I hate that , I will have to taje another one. july 31-aug 12.
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lindil
--The Osanwe Discussion board ~ exploring the nature and questions of Osanwe, and Traditional Christianity.The Translations from The Elvish /New Silmarillion Project


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Posts: 990 | From: a hidden fastness [N. CA] | Registered: Jul 2000 | IP: Logged

Madhros
Wight


Member # 3182


Rate Member
posted July 27, 2002 10:41 AM
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Hello, I have recently joined the project, yet i went to a vacation and now Im lost. Can someone tell me what is it that youre working so that I can help with that.
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and he lived to wield his sword with left hand more deadly than his right had been.


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Posts: 160 | From: Formenos | Registered: May 2002 | IP: Logged

Aiwendil
Wight


Member # 320

Member Rated:

posted July 28, 2002 07:11 PM
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Well, things have been sort of slow here in the past few weeks. I've been typing up a text for the Fall of Gondolin incorporating the approved changes, and I'll post in on the other forum as soon as I'm done.
In the meantime, any comments on the '7 Names of Gondolin' thread or the 'Mechanical Monsters at the Fall of Gondolin' would be most appreciated.


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Madhros
Wight


Member # 3182


Rate Member
posted July 28, 2002 08:48 PM
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I'm on it then!
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and he lived to wield his sword with left hand more deadly than his right had been.


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Posts: 160 | From: Formenos | Registered: May 2002 | IP: Logged

lindil
Seeker of the Straight Path


Member # 76


Member Rated:

posted August 19, 2002 09:34 AM
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For folks interested ion signing up, I have yet to revise the participation categories but essentially they will be this, eliminated.
Just participate as you can and in area's that you have some understanding or time to learn.For instance don't vote on Mechanical dragons [ a vote coming soon btw] if you have not read the thread or pondered it. If you have go for it. That is the basic sort of rule. I hope to update the opening Outline post soon till then - this is the 'official' update. Nd hey if we get more active members we can vote on something like this instead of me just pontificating



-=-==-=-=-=-=-=-from page 2 of same -=-=-==-
Tirned Tinnu
Wight


Member # 4192


Member Rated:

posted August 30, 2002 05:15 AM
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Please add me to your list of FULL responsibilites. I am ready to take on this challenge, and I see that you are quite serious, too.
I post at several boards under many names, but this is the one that seems to have all the rules worked out as I would like them to be!
I shall await a reply, and review all texts in the mean time.

Edited comment* "AUggghhhhh!!!!!! HoME?! Dear Eru, you are cruel! *Sits down and starts reading* "Grumble..."

Next edit: Okay, I give in. You want to sort thru ALL this info?! To do what? This is, IMHO, the work of a lifetime, and the tale of the creation of a land slowly but surely over years and years. I suggest that rather than looking back, you look to later works. Chris must have some of these hanging around. Isn't it possible to find notes on newer revisions? Oh pssttt....note, I withdraw my offer for all duties. Thank you muchly, but I am daunted beyond despair at the prospect of touching Tolkien's work. I would need to learn his secret languages (and not be satisfied until I'd learned them all) in order to even have the fainted idea of the stuff rattling around in his head. Not to mention needing to take German, Medieval English, Welsh, Scandinavian, and possibly Latin, too. Then add on the need to be well rounded in myth, such as Siggurd and Brunhilde, the traditional norse sagas, I'd need to read the Finnish Sagas (which I have started, they are lovely) and prolly a good all around backround on the history of early England might help...See?

[ September 01, 2002: Message edited by: Tirned Tinnu ]

[ September 01, 2002: Message edited by: Tirned Tinnu ]


[ September 01, 2002: Message edited by: Tirned Tinnu ]

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'Perilous indeed,' said Aragorn, 'fair and perilous; but only evil need fear it, or those who bring some evil with them. Follow me!'


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Posts: 170 | From: Patchogue NY | Registered: Aug 2002 | IP: Logged

lindil
Seeker of the Straight Path


Member # 76


Member Rated:

posted October 09, 2002 01:40 PM
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Please note the new first post.
All degrees of participation have been eliminated. Of course if anyone disagrees w/ this we can vote, but it still seems like to new a group to be bogged down in procedures. Whenever folks are ready we can revisit all of these organizational edicts and do a group rehash. For now I am just doing my best to codify what is already happening.

Please also note, folks who signed up but have yet to participate or ask myself or Aiwendil fo the passwords , i am eliminating your posts, if you still want to participate, feel fre to sign up again and PM us. No malice intended, just trying to clean up and eliminate the non-essentials.

Also to those daunted by the complexity of the undertaking but still wish to participate in some way. As long as you have a working Knowledge of the Silmarillion [ say having read it at least 3 times] then I can help speed you on your way w/ a handy "guide to Silm editing essentials in UT/HoME" ownership of all [ or at least UT and HoME 5 and 10-12] books.
is darn handy but not essential. PM me for details. Please do have read Silm a few times if you wish to participate actively in the Project.

General questions as to what we are doing are fine for anyone who is curious, by 'participation', I mean taking on of tasks and voting.

[ October 20, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]
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