The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Announcements and Obituaries > Haudh-en-Ndengin
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-27-2000, 07:18 PM   #1
Mithadan
Spirit of Mist
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tol Eressea
Posts: 2,888
Mithadan has been trapped in the Barrow!
Ring The Palantir of Orthanc

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dűm
Posts: 354
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
When Pippin retreived the Palantir after Wormtongue threw it from Orthanc, it is described as having a glowing red center. He later steals it from Gandalf and looks into it and it again glows red. Was it glowing red because Sauron was using his Palantir to contact Saruman? Was Pippin drawn to it because Sauron was attempting to summon Saruman or anyone at the other end or was it the Palantir's nature which compelled him to look in it?

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000004>Mithadan </A> at: 11/30/00 9:20:47 am
__________________
That which once was shall be again!
Mithadan is offline  
Old 11-27-2000, 07:31 PM   #2
Grey Fool
Animated Skeleton
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 31
Grey Fool has just left Hobbiton.
Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 25
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> The Palantir

I reckon the reason for the red glow has been inadvertently left open to interpretation, but it was probably an indication simply that the Eye of Sauron was a-roving.
On the other hand, it could have been blushing in the presence of Pippin's immense beauty.
Wha kens the answers?

</p>
Grey Fool is offline  
Old 11-29-2000, 08:00 AM   #3
Mithadan
Spirit of Mist
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tol Eressea
Posts: 2,888
Mithadan has been trapped in the Barrow!
Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dűm
Posts: 356
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Palantir

I doubt that the palantir would have been moved by Pippin's &quot;beauty&quot; considering it was created by the Noldor in Valinor who were generally pretty good looking. <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

We know things created by Sauron can apply compulsion or sway others' behavior. Examples: the One Ring, the seven Dwarven Rings which caused the wearers to be greedier. When Saruman first used the Palantir to look towards Barad Dur, Sauron may have used the Ithil Stone to seize control of the Orthanc Stone. Gandalf surmises this while riding with Pippin to Gondor on Shadowfax. This might explain both the red glow and Pippin's obsessive behavior towards the Stone.

On the other hand, LoTR suggests and Sil. appears to confirm that the Palantiri were created by Feanor. Other items created by Feanor awoke lust in others (the Silmarilli). Maybe the desire to use the Stone was inherent, arising from the nature of the device. The red glow may have been natural, meaning the Stone was active. I lean towards the first explanation, but would like to hear other opinions. Gandalf's conversation with Pippin about the Stone could be construed to support either interpretation.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>
__________________
That which once was shall be again!
Mithadan is offline  
Old 11-29-2000, 06:33 PM   #4
Grey Fool
Animated Skeleton
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 31
Grey Fool has just left Hobbiton.
Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
Posts: 27
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Pippin's beauty

Oh Mithadan <img src=rolleyes.gif ALT=":rolleyes">

I was only joking.

Don't forget, however, that beauty in any form is entirely subjective, and just because you fancy Noldor doesn't mean that hobbits are ugly. Especially Pippin, who I have to admit I'm rather fond of.

</p>
Grey Fool is offline  
Old 11-30-2000, 01:34 AM   #5
Mister Underhill
Dread Horseman
 
Mister Underhill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Behind you!
Posts: 2,738
Mister Underhill has been trapped in the Barrow!
Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 191
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/eyepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Palantir

Of all the threads, this one was tailor made for the red-eye palantír icon!! Mith, you dropped the ball, man! (pun intended) <img src=laugh.gif ALT=":lol">

Here's what I make of it:

Both The Silmarillion and UT list Fëanor as the creator of the palantíri in their indices. It seems almost certain that he made them. Despite your keen observation about the lust inspired by some of Fëanor's creations, I think we can safely assume that the palantíri did not inspire an unquenchable desire to gaze into them of their own accord. From UT: &quot;Their use involved no peril...&quot;, and later, &quot;It must be remembered that the Stones were originally 'innocent', serving no evil purpose. It was Sauron who made them sinister, and instruments of domination and deceit.&quot;

My guess is that Sauron's domination of Saruman's Stone must have been the key factor in Pippin's irresistable urge to have another look (though I do not doubt that his natural inquisitiveness must have multiplied the urge and made it all the more unbearable).

The red glow is a stickier manner. I don't think you can postulate that it is the Eye of Sauron gazing into the companion Stone in Barad-dűr. The Stone was glowing when Wormtongue cast it down from Orthanc. If Sauron was gazing into his own Stone at this moment, wouldn't he have become aware of Saruman's defeat at Isengard? I admit that there's some wiggle-room in the description of how the palantíri work that would allow this possibility, but it just doesn't seem right to me.

That leaves two possibilities: (1) the glow was a natural function of the Stone becoming active, or (2) the glow became visible as a result of the Stone becoming active but was caused by a red glow in the chamber where it was housed in Barad-dűr. I favor the latter. I admit, though, that a quick scan of the texts didn't turn up any evidence to back up any theory on the glow one way or the other.

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000005>Mister Underhill</A> at: 11/30/00 2:38:33 am
Mister Underhill is offline  
Old 11-30-2000, 08:35 AM   #6
Mithadan
Spirit of Mist
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tol Eressea
Posts: 2,888
Mithadan has been trapped in the Barrow!
Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dűm
Posts: 358
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/eyepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Palantir

Red eye added. Satisfied Sir Underhill?

I tend to agree that both the compulsion and the red glow derive from Barad Dur. The only thing which gives me pause is the statements by Gandalf :

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;Even now my heart desires to test my will upon it, to see if I could not wrench it from him and turn it where I would...&quot; <hr></blockquote>

and

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;But if I had spoken sooner [to Pippin], it would not have lessened your desire or made it easier to resist&quot; <hr></blockquote>

These quotes seem to suggest that &quot;it&quot;, the Palantir, creates a desire in persons to use it. While the first quote addresses &quot;wrenching&quot; the stone from Sauron, the focus appears not to be a desire to challenge Sauron or any compulsion by the Dark Lord. The context is so the stone can be used for Gandalf's personal desire to see if he could use it to view Tirion in ages past when Feanor yet lived.



--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>
__________________
That which once was shall be again!
Mithadan is offline  
Old 11-30-2000, 10:39 AM   #7
Mister Underhill
Dread Horseman
 
Mister Underhill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Behind you!
Posts: 2,738
Mister Underhill has been trapped in the Barrow!
Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 192
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/eyepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Palantír

(This message was left blank)

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000005>Mister Underhill</A> at: 11/30/00 12:04:15 pm
Mister Underhill is offline  
Old 11-30-2000, 10:57 AM   #8
Mister Underhill
Dread Horseman
 
Mister Underhill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Behind you!
Posts: 2,738
Mister Underhill has been trapped in the Barrow!
Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 193
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/eyepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Palantír

Great points, Mithadan! However, I'm still inclined to disagree about the palantíri being so naturally lust-inspiring. If you take a little bit more of the quote you mentioned:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ‘How long, I wonder, has he [Saruman] been constrained to come often to his glass for inspection and instruction, and the Orthanc-stone so bent towards Barad-dűr that, if any save a will of adamant now looks into it, it will bear his mind and sight swiftly thither? And how it draws one to itself! Have I not felt it? Even now my heart desires to test my will upon it, to see if I could not wrench it from him and turn it where I would – to look across the wide seas of water and of time to Tirion the Fair, and perceive the unimaginable hand and mind of Fëanor at their work, while both the White Tree and Golden were in flower!’<hr></blockquote>
...it seems that this ability of the Stone to 'constrain' someone to peer into it is a newfound one. Another one from UT:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ...Sauron came to have control of them [the Stones], so that they were perilous for anyone, however exalted, to use.<hr></blockquote>
You have a good point about Gandalf's stated motivation -- but I might say that this is characteristic of a Sauron-like compulsion. For instance, folks like Gandalf were always tempted to use the Ring for &quot;good&quot; purposes. Saruman apparently began to fear that others of the White Council had their own designs for power and thought that no one could wield the Ring to better &quot;good&quot; than himself. However twisted his justification may have been, we see that the temptation always provides a rationalization. And anyway, there does seem to be a bit of pridefulness there in Gandalf, a desire to test his will against Sauron's to see if he could wrench the Stone away from him.

A few other points: Gandalf did not hesitate to leave the Stone in Aragorn's keeping, nor does he seem alarmed when he theorizes that Aragorn may have used the Stone to reveal himself to Sauron in order to provoke him to speed up his timetable. The essay on the palantíri in UT gives no indication that they inspired an overmastering lust in anyone, and indeed, it was common practice for the Kings and Stewards of Gondor to delegate the actual use of the Stones to wardens and ministers, who would then report back on what they had seen or learned. All this, coupled with the quotes I mentioned earlier, lead me to conclude that this power of the Orthanc-stone was new and Sauron-inspired.

But -- hold the phone on the red glow. In The Pyre of Denethor, this happens:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Then coming to the doorway he drew aside the covering, and lo! He had between his hands a palantír. And as he held it up, it seemed to those that looked on that the globe began to glow with an inner flame, so that the lean face of the Lord was lit as with a red fire, and it seemed cut out of hard stone, sharp with black shadows, noble, proud, and terrible.<hr></blockquote>
It's that red glow again! And UT at least suggests that Sauron never gained control of Denethor's Stone.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Denethor remained steadfast in his rejection of Sauron, but was made to believe that his victory was inevitable, and so fell into despair... Denethor was a man of great strength of will, and maintained the integrity of his personality until the final blow of the (apparently) mortal wound of his only surviving son... Sauron failed to dominate him and could only influence him by deceits.<hr></blockquote>
If Denethor kept his Stone from Sauron's hands, then maybe the red glow is a natural characteristic of a Stone that's &quot;warming up&quot;.

The essay on the palantíri is fairly authoritative. See the Introduction to UT, where CT notes that JRRT made substantial revisions to &quot;The Palantír&quot; and to &quot;The Pyre of Denethor&quot; for a second edition of LotR and that the essay &quot;is derived from writings on the palantíri associated with this revision.&quot;

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000005>Mister Underhill</A> at: 11/30/00 12:01:08 pm
Mister Underhill is offline  
Old 11-30-2000, 02:18 PM   #9
Mithadan
Spirit of Mist
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tol Eressea
Posts: 2,888
Mithadan has been trapped in the Barrow!
Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dűm
Posts: 359
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/eyepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Palantír

You didn't comment on my pretty little red eye. <img src=frown.gif ALT="">

The red glow in the stone held by Denethor could still be attributable to Barad Dur. Maybe Denethor's final insanity derived from struggling against Sauron to have the stone reveal uncorrupted info about Gondor's opponents. Or maybe it is inherent to the stone's operations. However, I seem to recall one of Denethor's guards commenting on the farsightedness of the Steward and mentioning the belief that Denethor from time to time grappled with the mind of Sauron and that *white* light would issue from the windows of his tower. I'm working from memory here though.

I tend to agree that the lure of the Orthanc stone probably derived from Sauron. Maybe the stone was glowing when Wormtongue threw it because Sauron was trying to contact Saruman. Kind of like the light on an answering machine.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>
__________________
That which once was shall be again!
Mithadan is offline  
Old 11-30-2000, 09:03 PM   #10
Mister Underhill
Dread Horseman
 
Mister Underhill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Behind you!
Posts: 2,738
Mister Underhill has been trapped in the Barrow!
Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 194
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/eyepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Palantír

Good job on the Red Eye Palantír, Mithadan! <img src=cool.gif ALT="8)">

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> [Denethor] went up alone into the secret room under the summit of the Tower; and many who looked up thither at that time saw a pale light that gleamed and flickered from the narrow windows for a while, and then flashed and went out.<hr></blockquote>
Then later...
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ‘It was in the very hour that Faramir was brought to the Tower that many of us saw a strange light in the topmost chamber,’ said Beregond. ‘But we have seen that light before, and it has long been rumoured in the City, that the Lord would at times wrestle in thought with his Enemy.’<hr></blockquote>
Not very conclusive. And UT does say that Denethor's madness resulted from his own despair, not because he finally succumbed to Sauron's attempt to dominate him.

I would think, though, that if Sauron was calling from Barad-dűr, Wormtongue would have had a tough time casting the Stone away... Maybe the red glow is like when you start your computer and the &quot;Windows 98&quot; screen comes up for a few seconds. On the other hand, the description of Pippin's experience certainly smacks of Sauron:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> At first the globe was dark, black as jet, with the moonlight gleaming on its surface. Then there came a faint glow and stir in the heart of it, and it held his eyes, so that now he could not look away. Soon all the inside seemed on fire; the ball was spinning, or the lights within were revolving. Suddenly the lights went out.<hr></blockquote>
&quot;He could not look away&quot; certainly seems suggestive of Sauron's influence and his domination of the Stone. When I read this yesterday, I thought that the line &quot;Suddenly the lights went out.&quot; sounded like Sauron approaching his palantír in Barad-dűr and blocking out the light.

</p>
Mister Underhill is offline  
Old 12-01-2000, 10:17 AM   #11
Mithadan
Spirit of Mist
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tol Eressea
Posts: 2,888
Mithadan has been trapped in the Barrow!
Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dűm
Posts: 360
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/eyepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Palantír

Spooky thought. Pippin seeing the topmost chamber in Barad Dur, dimly lit by glowing red braziers and guttered torches on the walls. Suddenly the fires in the braziers rise like dragon's breath only to have their light blocked by the shadow of uttermost darkness; the coming of the Dark Lord. He reaches out with a four fingered hand to lift the stone and.....

Just practicing for the next installment of Tales from Tol Eressea. <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

With respect to the white light in Denethor's tower as opposed to the red light in the stone on the bier, maybe Sauron was engaging in a bit of voyeurism, watching his enemy burn. Or maybe not...

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>
__________________
That which once was shall be again!
Mithadan is offline  
Old 12-04-2000, 03:50 AM   #12
the Lorien wanderer
Shade of Carn Dűm
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 276
the Lorien wanderer has just left Hobbiton.
Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased
Posts: 3
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/eyepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Palantír

It is the element of mystery that makes us so curious isn't it? If Tolkien had specified that it glowed because Sauron was searching and calling to Saruman then we would all have been satisfied. But then Tolkien could just as well have said that it was the nature of the stone that made it glow and hence Pippin was drawn to it. Tolkien could have said absolutely ANYTHING and we would have loved it. But he didn't. The hounds that did not bay. THAT is what ignites our curiousity.
All that didn't really have anything to do with anything. Personally though, I think it was the power of the stone that sensed the Pippin's desire and glowed more enigmatically than ever, drawing Pippin towards it.

</p>
the Lorien wanderer is offline  
 

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:58 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.