The Link Between Mortality and Curiosity?

[Lomelinde]

As I was reflecting last night on LOTR, I got to pondering on Lorien and then elves in general. I started thinking about how the Lorien elves were very locked away within themselves, never leaving their home,looking to the past wistfully rather than forward earnestly, and just overall desiring to keep things the way they had been for ages,meanwhile spurning inevitable change.And while the Lorien elves were particularly guilty of this, I realized that all elves,to some degree,harbored these reticences to sweeping change.On the other hand, the race of Men and even Dwarves, to some extent, struck me as hungry to move forward, to find "better" ways of doing things,to "build the better mousetrap".
Now my question:Is there a relationship between a race's mortality and their desire for knowledge?I'm not talking of lore and tales and ancient wisdom;of course the elves yearned for these. I'm speaking of pure curiosity, the quest for science and technology, which the races of Dwarf and Man seemed to possess in great abundance, and the elves not. In fact, the elves appeared to scorn and fear curiosity, regarding it as "unnatural", and not understanding it's powerful drive and influence in shaping the emerging race of Man.
Although elves were immortal and wise, they chose to live in the past and be content with "the way things were". The race of Man was mortal,but chose to pursue learning and embracing change. Did Iluvatar, when he created the races of Middle-earth, have this plan in mind? Did he awaken strong curiosity in Men so they could fulfill their purpose and eventually take over after the elves left? Just some thoughts.... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[zifnab]

Good thread, Lomelinde.

Elves, know the plan for the race. The know the history and, are the only ones "in touch" with the Ainur. The ones that know what and believe in the Valar and Eru. They know what is to become of them when this is all over. Men have shy'ed away from the Valar sice day one. Only one has stepped foot on Aman(Undying Lands{That I can remember}). The dwarves pretty much only believe in Aule, and have somewhat knowledge of their after life. Be it turned back to stone in which they came from, of going to the Halls of Mandos, to help Aule build the world after the last Battle. Men have know clue on their history. Just like the saying goes, "Dead men don't talk", and even the dead ones don't philosophize about the after-life.

Look at the world today. Look at how we scury around in our "short" lives, trying to accomplish everything we can before we pass-on. Which we all know we will. I imagine M-E men are the same. Building, creating, studing, learning all they can in the life-span in which they are givin'. Dwarves have a limited life-span as well, although it exceeds the lfe of men by a good 100-200 years. They also know their time is limited. And (I imagne), they will do what they can in that time.

Elves....well when they die, they go to the Halls of Mandos, which will ease some suffereing, maybe giving wisdom. And then "plup", after so long, they land right back in the Undying Lands. So, what do the elves have to fear about dying?

Elves taught Men, of what they had learned from the Valar, language, skill, trade, arts. It is in Men's spirit to expand and advance on some things, just like your example, "Build a better mousetrap".

I think it is in the plan of Eru. He put seeds in his children, waiting for them to sprout and watching them grow.

Immortal were the Elves, and their wisdom waxed from age to age, and no sickness nor pestilence brought death to them. Their bodies indeed were of the stuff of Earth, and could be destroyed; and in those days they were more like to the bodies of Men, since they had not so long been inhabited by the fire of their spirit, which consumes them from within in the courses of time. But Men were more frail, more easily slain by weapon or mischance, and less easily healed; subject to sickness and many ills; and they grew old and died. What may befall their spirits after death the Elves know not. Some say that they too go to the halls of Mandos; but their place of waiting there is not that of the Elves, and Mandos under Ilúvatar alone save Manwë knows whither they go after the time of recollection in those silent halls beside the Outer Sea. None have ever come back from the mansions of the dead, save only Beren son of Barahir, whose hand had touched a Silmaril; but he never spoke afterward to mortal Men. The fate of Men after death, maybe, is not in the hands of the Valar, nor was all foretold in the Music of the Ainur.

[Birdland]

“That which hath been is that which shall be, and that which hath been done is that which shall be done; and there is nothing new under the sun. Is there a thing whereof it is said: 'See, this is new'?--it hath been already, in the ages which were before us.” - Ecclesiastes 1: 9-10

“It is ever so with the things that Men begin: there is a frost in Spring, or a blight in Summer, and they fail of their promise.” - Gimli, Son of Gloin

Boy, nobody but an Elf could understand better what Ecclesiastes was talkin’ about. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

It’s a good question, Lomelinde. In defense of the elves, I’d have to say that if the individuals of a race could live for tens of thousands of years, they then would have come up with a system that works for them, and of course would seek to preserve that way of life. Discovery is fun when you are young, but who wants to keep making the same mistakes over and over again?

Think of all the innovation that the elves had created, in medicine, the arts, music, the study of nature. They may have understood and hid from Man things that they believed were clearly beyond their grasp, or were too dangerous for them to know. (The creation of Rings comes to mind.) The only thing they seemed to have rejected is machinery or “technology”. I‘m sure they were intelligent enough to have envisioned these things; they must have had good reason to reject them.

There is nothing wrong with trying to preserve a way of life that has been centuries in the creating, especially if it works. If the elves of Lothlorien seemed bitter, or “lost in the past”, I think it was only because they were in mourning for a way of life that was soon to end for them. And also because they can forsee the struggles that will face the race of Man, and mourn for them, too. Any parent watching their children make “the same mistakes” can understand those feelings. Especially if you know that they won’t survive to benefit from the learning.

As for Men (and dwarves), yes, they do seem to have more of a sense of curiosity and “adventure”, but there is a feeling of desperation in the works of Man. Because they will die, and knowledge accumulated will be lost. There is no time to wait and see if a “thing will work.” So even when they come up a way of doing things, they will want to change it, and come up with a “better” way of doing it.

It’s an endless, vicious cycle of creating and tearing down, making and remaking, while all the while constantly losing knowledge gained because of Death.

So here we are today, with all the technology and “better mousetraps” that we have gained from the struggle, and yet can we say we are happy? If we were, why would all of us on this board be lingering in Middle Earth with the elves?

(P.S. - Totally Off Topic, but if anyone would like to read a very good book that give some interesting insights on progress and what “works” and “doesn’t work”, check out Ishmael by Daniel Quinn.)

(P.P.S. - Sorry I haven't addressed whether the one gave Mortality to Men to stimulate this curiosity. I'm still dwelling on that.)

[ April 07, 2002: Message edited by: Birdland ]

[ April 07, 2002: Message edited by: Birdland ]

[Ancalime]

The elves are immortal. Therefore, they have all the time they could want to try out new things. Perhaps they seem to avoid change to humans, but humans don't live anywhere near as long to see that the elves have changed things from the way they were before, and may still change something from the way it is now. Besides, to echo a sentiment from before, why bother change something if you already know it works?

So here we are today, with all the technology and “better mousetraps” that we have gained from the struggle, and yet can we say we are happy? If we were, why would all of us on this board be lingering in Middle Earth with the elves?

Good point. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I don't think it is human nature to ever be satisfied with the way things are-we always think there's a better possibility out there somewhere, and we're determined to find it. Back to the elves, I think maybe they realize that the key to happiness isn't in technology or advancement of that kind. I'm not really sure what they think is the key to happiness, but they must have something or else they would be out there, searching for answers with the 'curious Men.'

[VanimaEdhel]

The elves are immortal. Therefore, they have all the time they could want to try out new things. Perhaps they seem to avoid change to humans, but humans don't live anywhere near as long to see that the elves have changed things from the way they were before, and may still change something from the way it is now. Besides, to echo a sentiment from before, why bother change something if you already know it works?

I agree with this sentiment: when Elves are young (relatively speaking), it is quite possible that they could be quite curious. If you also look at the character of Legolas, he was quite curious. He wanted to explore Fangorn forest and he became eventually quite enamored with the caves that Gimli wished to explore, which probably caused him to be even more curious about the race of Dwarves.

He seemed to me to be like a young boy almost, who was always looking around on the quest (when Gimli and Aragorn were following Merry and Pippin), always being awake and alert, looking around, when the other two were sleeping.

Also, he was greatly curious about the sea, as are most Elves like Legolas. His curiosity is probably what carried him over the sea with Gimli eventually. They had explored much of Middle Earth (where they desired to) together, so they both probably wanted to explore more, so Legolas, being much in love with the sea, obviously would have wanted to explore over there.

So, basically, I guess, because they live so long, after seeing much of the world, and seeing much sorrow, obviously, the Elves probably lose curiosity in many things. They have forever to experience things, so they truly can say, "I always have tomorrow", whereas mortals, when they begin to age, may not be around tomorrow, so they had to experiment and investigate and invent and create during their lifetime, so that they would be able to experience life themselves before they died. If one were to see all the things that Elves tried or did during their eternity, it would probably eventually sum up to the same amount of things that Men did in their lifetime, it is just that Elves could do one new thing a century, even, easily, but Men never even made it to a second century of living.

[Mhoram]

For the Elves: To pursue technology would lead to what? The world we have today. The accounts of Middle-Earth put the peoples on a technological plane simular to that of Rome and Europe of the early AD centuries. The Elves were happy with the world the way it was, so why would they want to pursue technology that would change it, possibly turning it into the world we have today.

For Men: It is my opinion that all men desire a way to make themselves immortal. This goes for men of ME and men here. The only way to do this is to build or create something that will last, atleast in memory, far beyond you. With music, art, science, discovery, with these and other means men can find some way to find a form of immortality. That is, in my opinion, the driving force of curiosity that you find in men.

[goldwine]

I wonder if the elves in their wisdom knew that advances in technology would not improve the quality of their lives? They had first hand knowledge in understanding the workings of the world, and as Birdland so aptly quoted "there is nothing new under the sun". Mortal man on the other hand had only historical understanding of events of the past and yes, it was not enough to satisfy their curiosity. Could it be too that elves led a more cerebral life and that men's experiences were more tactile and voluble? Is the essence of man expressed through exploration and individual experience?

[Ibun_Clawarrow]

It doesn't seem like the elves would really need anything to improve their lives- at least not for the reasons that humans try to improve life. Since the elves are already immortal and immune to illness they have no need for modern medicine, one of the biggest technological breakthroughs. Elves seems like a very aesthetic race, so they seem to be more interested in make beautiful artwork (like the Silmarils) than items that are purely functional like guns, factories, cars, etc. And they wouldn't need radios, TV, movies, etc because they seem to delight in things like poetry and song that relate their history, rather than listening/watching dumbly to contrived storylines. Like I said, elves seem to like beauty over practicality.

[Ancalime]

I don't think modern medicine is a very good example of how elves are different than men, because aren't they the experts of Middle-Earth medicine? One example would be Elrond healing Frodo's wound from Weathertop. I'm sure there are other examples, but it's late and I can't think. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] Which makes me wonder: how did the elves come to be the experts in the first place? As Ibun_Clawarrow said, elves are immortal and immune to illness, so why would the develop the art of healing? Anyone know? [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img]

I give you an extract from the wonderfull "ISILDUR" by Brian K. Crawford (worth reading). Amroth, after seeing Osgiliath says to Cirdan
Does it not surprise you, Lord, that creatures as ephemeral as these Atani find time enough in their brief lives to create such beauty, and on such a scale? Generations must toil and die that their descendants, whom they will never know, should have a fair home. It is as if they forget that they are mortal.»
CirdanΥs eyes moved over the city, taking in detail after detail. Each tower seemed lovelier than the last; each house more stately; each monument and arch more impressive.
Perhaps it is because they are aware of their mortality that they build so feverishly,» he mused. Though they will be gone, the builders will be remembered as long as the buildings themselves stand. Perhaps it is their way of grasping at the ages that are our birthright.»
Amroth considered this. You may be right, my Lord,» he conceded. But do you ever wonder, if our roles were reversed, would we Quendi do as well?»
That we shall never know. The Gift of Man is forever denied us.»
The Atani do not call death the Gift of Man but the Doom of Man.»
It is because they do not know so much of life or death as we Quendi. They see death but as an ending, and they are reluctant to end.»
And who is the more fortunate, I wonder? Their experience of life is brief, but is it not more intense for that? These Atani die quickly, but they also live quickly. They move and change more easily than do we. They have not our ancient wisdom, but they are clever and adaptable. They bear children when they are little more than children themselves, still in their tweens or even teens. Their numbers are constantly growing, while ours do not. And when we take the Straight Road and leave the circles of the world, they shall remain.»

[VanimaEdhel]

Welcome to the chat, Michael! I was just checking to see what people said in case I should edit something in my post, and I saw that you only had to posts
Well: I just wanted to tell you:
Creosa mellon (Welcome friend)!