red-headed elves?

[Nevtarmawen Greenleaf]

ok, i know that dark haired elves come from rivendell and blonde elves come from lorien. where do red haired elves come from? i know there has to be some, because in FOTR when legolas rides up there is a red headed elf with him. so, is mirkwood like a mixture of all the different elves? i was just wondering cause i have red hair, and the only character i can relate to(by looks) would be either sam or rosy...theyre ok but, i like elves so if anyone knows, could u tell me please? thanx

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Dark haired from Rivendell and Blonde from Lothlorien? Where did you hear/read that? Most non-Vanyarin Elves were dark haired. The Elves of Lothlorien were in the majority Sindarin and Nandorian Elves with some Noldor thrown in, and Rivendell is problably mainly Nolodorin. Either way, most Elves there would have been dark haired, and the same goes for Lothlorien.<P>On red haired Elves. The most notable red haired Elves were that of the House of Mahtan, who were said to have 'reddish-brown' hair, and Maedhros, together with the twins, Amrod and Amras had reddish-brown hair. (Mahtan's daughter, Nerdanel, married feanor, father of Maedhros and the twins.)

[HCIsland]

I think NG is refering more to the elves in the movies then the books. The movie does have darker haired elves in Rivendell and lighter haired elves in Lothlorien. It's a little more complex then that in the books. In fact, I don't even think people agree on what colour Legolas' hair should be.<P>I'm not sure of the red-haired elf to which you are refering. Does he come into Rivendell with Legolas? If he does, just assume he's from Mirkwood.<P>H.C.

[elven maiden Earwen]

i dont think there are any readheaded elves, but i could be wrong. in the movies it did seem that way but if red headed elves are from mirkwood why does Legolas have blond?

[Nevtarmawen Greenleaf]

thanks for the info on red headed elves, that makes me feel alot better. <P>i was referring to the elves in the movies though, and it does seem as the dark haired elves live in rivendell and the blonde elves are from lorien.<P>you can see the red headed elf whenever legolas first rides into rivendell and he jumps off his horse...he looks around then he looks behind him at a red headed elf, though i cant tell if its a girl or a guy.<P>again, thanks for all the info everyone, it helped alot.<P> ~~*~~ nev ~~*~~

[dunadan_aragorn]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Dark haired from Rivendell and Blonde from Lothlorien? Where did you hear/read that? Most non-Vanyarin Elves were dark haired. The Elves of Lothlorien were in the majority Sindarin and Nandorian Elves with some Noldor thrown in, and Rivendell is problably mainly Nolodorin. Either way, most Elves there would have been dark haired, and the same goes for Lothlorien.<BR>On red haired Elves. The most notable red haired Elves were that of the House of Mahtan, who were said to have 'reddish-brown' hair, and Maedhros, together with the twins, Amrod and Amras had reddish-brown hair. (Mahtan's daughter, Nerdanel, married feanor, father of Maedhros and the twins.)<BR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Ooohh, aren't we obsessed!

[Man-of-the-Wold]

Well, my understanding is that only the Noldor were invariably dark-haired, grey-eyed, excepting for Meadhros, perhaps. This is the coloration, with light skin, that JRR Tolkien also attributed to Luthien and to most of his favorite mortal characters. His wife had such features, it seems.<P>The Vanyar and elves such as Galadriel with Vanyarian ancestors were golden-haired, which is true of Marachian Men such as the Third House of the Edain, and the Eotheod.<P>The Teleri seem to have had more variation, with both light and dark-haired people. Both Thingol and Celeborn (and Cirdan possibly) are described as having Silver-Grey hair, although in Cirdan's case it may have been that he chose to age to some extent like an elder man. But in the other two cases, I would think it refers to the pale blonde color that we see with Film-Legolas, which would be appropriate. In Bombur's dream Thranduil is said to have had golden hair.<P>Indeed, the term Grey-Elves or Silvan-Elves may be a reference to hair color, although the former more likely signifies either raimant or an intermediate state between the Elves of the Light and those of Dark.<P>In any case, the Film's perponderance of fair-haired elves among the Silvan Elves of Lothlorien, which had at most only a small, separate number of Noldor, and the darker haired Elves that seem a little more common at Rivendell, is not without basis from the Books.<P>I think in some ways, even though they were certainly using a lot of Wigs for the male elves, the Film-makers had to deal with the reality of Anglo New Zealanders, which likely do not often have truly golden-blonde hair, or really dark hair, and wouldn't have looked right in dark wigs. Rather, they may have been stuck in casting good-looking extras by having to use some redheads, which are probably all to common there.<P>As a redhead myself, I've somewhat lamented JRR Tolkien's lack of reference to red hair, given the generally Northern European appearance of his charcters. Still, when he means golden, he may included light reddish hair in the Viking sense, too, as seems implied in the case of Hurin.<P>Given the difficult of finding loads of really strawhead extras, I like the Film's choice of using a lot of people with reddish and golden brown hair for the Rohirrim. This is in fact probably a very realistic take on how Iron Age people would have classified themselves tribally in terms of physical features, and that Tolkien may not have meant to be taken too literally in these regards.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Ooohh, aren't we obsessed! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BR>Yes.<p>[ February 17, 2003: Message edited by: Inderjit Sanghera ]

[Finwen]

Re: red-headed Elves in the film. There is actually a more obvious one in FotR, albeit the extended version. When the Fellowship leave Rivendell, Arwen is standing with a group of Elves and the female on her right, I think, is a red head. <P>And now to the original question... <P>I have no idea where they come from. As pointed out, blond(e)s are supposed to be Woodland Elves and darker ones from Rivendell, which has some basis in the canon; but it is, as usual, a lot more complicated than that in the long run and PJ is being a little simplistic by defining such things as hair and eye colour by where a specific Elf comes from. <P>That said, if an Elf from Mirkwood has been noted to have red hair, and an Elf from Rivendell also has this colouring, I'd deduce that red hair, although rarely seen, is not location-based and that any old Elf, wherever they are from, could have it. ^-^ <P>..... Or maybe PJ just invented a new breed of red-headed Elves? <BR>

[Legolas]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> ok, i know that dark haired elves come from rivendell and blonde elves come from lorien. where do red haired elves come from? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Wrong.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Most non-Vanyarin Elves were dark haired. The Elves of Lothlorien were in the majority Sindarin and Nandorian Elves with some Noldor thrown in, and Rivendell is problably mainly Nolodorin. Either way, most Elves there would have been dark haired, and the same goes for Lothlorien. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Wrong.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> i dont think there are any readheaded elves, but i could be wrong. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Wrong.<P>Elven hair colour was not so totally dependent upon kindred. The Vanyar were mainly blonde; much of the Noldor were dark-haired. These are not absolute by any means. The only Noldor we're told much of (and given their hair colour) is the royal house - one family does not dictate the entire hair colour of a kindred, even if it is the royal house. You have to remember - all elves came from the original 144 that awoke. They didn't separate by hair colour, name their kindreds, and mate. That would silly.<P>Nowhere does it say Rivendell was "mainly Noldor." 'Nandorian' is not a word, either.

[Finwen]

My understanding was that this question was movie-based, and therefore shouldn't involve long essays about the colouring of the Noldor and the Vanyar and every other Elf-kindred under the Sun... <P>... not that I didn't enjoy reading them or anything. Very informative. <P>Maybe some feedback from the topic-starter is needed, to see if their question has been fully answered?<p>[ February 20, 2003: Message edited by: Finwen ]

[Finiel]

Its definitely not location based since the elves got scattered/seperated every time their city/homebase/camp is destroyed by Melkor's forces in earlier times.<P>So expect that there would be a cocktail of different hair colors in one place (i.e. Glorfindel lives in Rivendel and yet his blond).<P>And I agree with Legolas. It would be silly if a person/elf mates with their kindred just to restore their hair color. <BR>Diversity is the word, I guess.<P>(just bummin around )<p>[ February 20, 2003: Message edited by: Finiel ]

[Inderjit Sanghera]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Elven hair colour was not so totally dependent upon kindred. The Vanyar were mainly blonde; much of the Noldor were dark-haired. These are not absolute by any means. The only Noldor we're told much of (and given their hair colour) is the royal house - one family does not dictate the entire hair colour of a kindred, even if it is the royal house. You have to remember - all elves came from the original 144 that awoke. They didn't separate by hair colour, name their kindreds, and mate. That would silly-posted by Legolas <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Did you not see the word MOST, in my quote? I never said ALL the Noldor and Telerin Elves had an exclusive hair colour, I was stating that the majority did. Maybe our conceptions of ‘most’ differ .By most, I mean 80%ish. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>“ The name referred to the hair of the Minyar (Vanyar), which was in nearly all members of the clan yellow or deep golden. This was regarded as a beautiful feature by the Noldor, though they were themselves mainly dark haired…Owing to intermarriage the golden hair of the Vanya sometimes later appeared among the Noldor…” Quendi and Eldar; HoME 11 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Though quoting ‘of Quendi and Eldar’ is quite a slippery slope, so to speak, since Tolkien describes it as being a ‘Elvish fairytale.’<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Nowhere does it say Rivendell was "mainly Noldor."-posted by Legolas <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You're right, but I'm drawing my conclusion from these quotes:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>“ When news of this reached Gil-Galad, he sent a force under Elrond half-Elven” Unfinished Tales; Of Galadriel and Celeborn <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> “Elrond had gathered such few of the Elves of Eregion as had escaped, but he had no force to withstand the onset….Elrond was able to extricate himself, but he was forced away northward, and it was at that time that he established a refuge and stronghold in Imladris” -Unfinished Tales; Of Galadriel and Celeborn <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> “But as he ravaged the land, slaying or drawing off the remaining groups of men, and hunting the remaining Elves…”-Unfinished Tales; Of Galadriel and Celeborn<BR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Judging from this, the main Elven population of Rivendell would’ve been compromised of Elrond’s force under Gil-galad and the Elves of Eregion, and most of the Elves of Eregion were Noldor. I think that most of Elrond’s force would’ve been made of elves of Forlindon, where the majority of the population would’ve been Noldor, whereas most the Sindar dwelt in Harlindon.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> “The country of old had been named Lindon by the Noldor…and many of the Eldar still dwelt there…” -The Silmarillion; Akallabeth <BR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> “The Elves of Harlindon, or Lindon south of Lune, are said to be largely of Sindarin origin” - Unfinished Tales; Of Galadriel and Celeborn; notes <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>So we can see that the majority of Rivendell might’ve been Noldor in the beginning with some Sindar, though Elves of other kindred’s may have joined them. The Elves who were hunted by Sauron may have been a combination of refuges of Eregion and wandering Nandor, from Denethor’s host.