The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Fun and Games > Middle-earth Mirth
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-23-2009, 12:47 AM   #241
satansaloser2005
The Sweetest Spoiler
 
satansaloser2005's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: from beneath you it giggles incessantly
Posts: 5,576
satansaloser2005 is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.satansaloser2005 is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.satansaloser2005 is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.satansaloser2005 is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirandir View Post
And here I was about to jump down your throat as to how you could possibly be so sure of that.
Well, there's certainly one obvious explanation....


Some ducks do have claws, after all.
__________________
"My heart always cowers behind the defense of my wit."
Friendship is two pals munching on a well-cooked face together.
Fenris bookworm.
satansaloser2005 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2009, 12:48 AM   #242
Mnemosyne
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Mnemosyne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Between the past and the future
Posts: 1,166
Mnemosyne is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Mnemosyne is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Send a message via MSN to Mnemosyne Send a message via Yahoo to Mnemosyne
Speaking of explanations, Sally...

*prods*
__________________
Got corsets?
Mnemosyne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2009, 01:49 AM   #243
Brinniel
Reflection of Darkness
 
Brinniel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Polishing the stars. Well, somebody has to do it; they're looking a little bit dull.
Posts: 2,897
Brinniel is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Brinniel is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Brinniel is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Seeing our numbers already dwindling quickly reminds me of how much I hate when games have two kills per Night. And the fact that three of the baddies are gifted doesn't help. Gah, I'm such a pessimist, but I can't help but think we're at a major disadvantage. If my calculations are correct, we have three Days to catch a werewolf in order to have a chance to win (or maybe four Days if there isn't two kills one Night). So while we will eventually want the cobbler and werebear dead, it's the werewolves we specifically should be concerned about at the moment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fea
Q for Queen, B for Bishop.
Heh, I didn't know that. Up until now, all those letters and numbers were complete gibberish to me. I just don't understand chess. But that's useful to know.

Nerwen looks like she was probably a safe kill, as she didn't say all that much. She only shared her thoughts on three players, then missed the voting. It's a shame she went so soon; a hunter would've been quite dangerous for the baddies later on as she would've had better chances of being accurate and from her posts I'm not sure we can get a good idea of who she could've targeted. It's frustrating to lose a gifted on the second Night, but then again it could've been much worse.

As for Eomer, he could've been a safe kill too since he did not say all that much. His death makes me think that Sally's probably not the werebear. I don't think she would take the risk of killing a player who only discussed and suspected her.

I have nothing else to say for now. It's late, I'm tired, and still need to shower before going to bed. I will probably be off and on most of the Day, though more consistently online towards the end. Which means toDay I shouldn't have to read four pages in one sitting, and hopefully this time my brain will actually be turned on as I think it was turned off up until now. For one thing, I realised in the final moments of yesterDay that I no longer could see any of my main suspects as baddies...a moment of realisation that came much too late. Not that Fea and Eonwe are off the hook, but I think toDay I need to wipe the slate clean and re-examine everyone.
__________________
Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
Brinniel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2009, 05:10 AM   #244
the phantom
Beloved Shadow
 
the phantom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: The Stadium
Posts: 6,121
the phantom is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.the phantom is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.the phantom is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.
Send a message via MSN to the phantom
Eye

I promised Gandalf and Sauron that I'd get up early and sweep, wax, and polish the game board. It'll take me quite a while- this place is filthy, blood and guts everywhere! But upon completion I should be able to take a good look at the moves of yesterday and last night and offer up an opinion or two. See you in about nine hours.

*sighs and grabs broom*
__________________
the phantom has posted.
This thread is now important.
the phantom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2009, 07:47 AM   #245
Rikae
Mellifluous Maia
 
Rikae's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: A glade open to the stars, deep in Nan Elmoth
Posts: 3,286
Rikae is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Rikae is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Rikae is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.
Man - fewer ordos in this game than special roles, now - a strange feeling.

That whole Fea/Nog situation after I went to bed yesterDay was... interesting. So much like last game, I can't help but think there's something planned in it. Nog's case against Fea was maybe slightly better than his anti-Durelin crusade then, but it still seems to me that Fea could very well be innocent, and the way so many jumped to vote for her (or defend her) is just odd. I'm going to take a close look at yesterDay's voting as soon as I have a free moment.

Also, there was something Izzy said yesterDay that gave me the heebie-jeebies (stay tuned for next week's episode...)

I'm surprised no one's mentioned the possibility of Nerwen being killed as a potential gifted yet. When I saw her role, I immediately thought "so that's why she was so jumpy!"
__________________
The skies of this world were always meant to have dragons. When they are not there, humans miss them.
~Yes, I'm a guy!~
Rikae is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2009, 08:14 AM   #246
Feanor of the Peredhil
La Belle Dame sans Merci
 
Feanor of the Peredhil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: perpetual uncertainty
Posts: 5,956
Feanor of the Peredhil is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Feanor of the Peredhil is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Feanor of the Peredhil is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.
Send a message via MSN to Feanor of the Peredhil
I'm awake-

but useless until after breakfast.

Then I shall take a look at my notes and try to find anything of value to post.

It's neat, having so many gifteds: instead of ordos who act without information, you can sit and look for people who fit specific role constraints. You might not find anything, but the potential is there.

It's not very useful early in the game, but I'm having fun looking for patterns. Though if my example with Nog is an indicator, maybe I should sit back and wait to be told what to think.
__________________
peace
Feanor of the Peredhil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2009, 08:44 AM   #247
Lariren Shadow
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Lariren Shadow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Where the day meets the night
Posts: 607
Lariren Shadow is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Send a message via AIM to Lariren Shadow Send a message via MSN to Lariren Shadow
So I had a a few things that I was going to look at from yesterDay but then saw that they were explained/in the light of more sleep not as important. I really was going to ask about the Nog and Fea seer thing, but then thought better of it because it was explained already.

As for other things: would Nerwen have been a safe wolf kill because she didn't vote yesterDay?

As for thoughts on why Eomer was chosen: he was making a lot of sense, and sort of sounded like he was playing it safe as a gifted, but then again, I don't know his persona from before, therefore not sure what he would have been like as an ordo/gifted/baddie.

I really have nothing else interesting to say. Later I probably will, mostly because then more people would have posted/I will procrastinate doing work to go through again and see if anything catches my eye.

Edit: X-posted with pre-breakfast Fea.
__________________
Choose treachery, its more fun!

Last edited by Lariren Shadow; 02-23-2009 at 08:44 AM. Reason: x-posting
Lariren Shadow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2009, 09:18 AM   #248
Feanor of the Peredhil
La Belle Dame sans Merci
 
Feanor of the Peredhil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: perpetual uncertainty
Posts: 5,956
Feanor of the Peredhil is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Feanor of the Peredhil is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Feanor of the Peredhil is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.
Send a message via MSN to Feanor of the Peredhil
Sorry; got distracted by writing an essay about how video game mentality could solve the world's economic problems. Still haven't eaten...

I'll be around for real later.
__________________
peace
Feanor of the Peredhil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2009, 10:10 AM   #249
Rikae
Mellifluous Maia
 
Rikae's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: A glade open to the stars, deep in Nan Elmoth
Posts: 3,286
Rikae is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Rikae is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Rikae is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.
The voting:

#33 Kath for Nerwen:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kath
Hey all I'm sorry to do this but my weekend got very busy and the deadline was much earlier than I'd thought! This means that right now is the only chance I have to post toDay.

Therefore I'm going to randomly vote right now because I've read through what there is on the thread and, well, it's hardly helpful in making a decision!

++NERWEN

Because she was the last person to post before

Unlike some, I don't think this looks particularly bad. She's clearly not trying to get Nerwen lynched (later she calls her “thoughtful”) and at this point no one had voiced suspicion toward Nerwen. Casting a random vote for an unhelpful person might look less dangerous, but, in the end, is more likely to start a bandwagon. Now, if she continued playing this way, it would be totally irresponsible, but I expect she won't.

#101:

Fea's vote and infamous comment:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fea
eenie meenie miny

++Hansy

Because I'm not in nearly a good enough mood to be nice to newbies for the sheer sake of it, and Nog has a way of saying interesting things on Day One.
Now, when I read this, my first thought was that she was referring to Nog's comment about Hansy being the “greatest cobbler ever”... but supposedly, it's because she thought Nog was seerish. Now, it doesn't really make sense for either an evilie or a goodie to make hints about the seer... but this doesn't really look like that. It looks more like a hint to the supposed seer, as I would expect most people looking at it would think what I did – that she was just agreeing with Nog's reasoning. I don't find it particularly evil.

#102
Durie votes for Sally:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Durelin
I'm going to go for as random as possible here.

++Sally

Just looking at who has posted, anyway, I picked out her on some sort of gut-reaction thing. The typical excuse. It's like pleading the 5th...my stomach told me to do it!
Yeah, not the best reason, especially where Sally is concerned, but what can you say....

#103

Steve for Gwath

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve
I'll just go for a semi-random vote:

++Gwath

Because his 2 posts said nothing at all relevant.
This is pretty weak, and easy – but what's worse, I just realized, is the way Izzy then latches on to it.

#110 -
Eomer for Sally. Known innocent voting for decent reasons... and now I'm starting to wonder whether Sally could be a bluffing werebear, or the werebear attempted to frame her.

#139
Rikae for Steve.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikae
Seems to be talking just to talk. Lots of responses, lots of jokes, very safe... sometimes seems to be talking from the evil perspective (first post). Insubstantial but involved. Looks creepy.
#144

Hansy for Fea
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hansy
"Revenge vote", I don't think you'll execute a veteran today anyway;
Easy. First vote for Fea. Not horribly evil, but Hansy had better do better than that from now on.

#154

Lari for Nog:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lari
I do still have the suspicion that giving a lot of analysis means guilt. And that is stronger in my mind right now than the whole Rikae/Fea thing.
Ok, what? Eh? Lari is new, but she's been around long enough to know how Nog plays Analysis means guilt? *facepalm* That's just what this game needs, more encouragement for under-the-reindeer playing.

#159

Nog for Fea:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nog
If you were an innocent and thought I was the seer you would have stayed silent about it.
I can see where Nog is coming from, but I think I have to conclude he's going overboard. That's kind of like him, though, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

#162
Wilwa for Steve.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilwa
Eonwe: (Steve is it?) Voted for Gwath, not sure about him either, posts alot but not necessarily anything concrete, on my list
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilwa
Don't want to bring another person into the mix, so between Gwath and Eonwe I will vote for:

++Eonwe
Now, if this had come later, I might have thought it was a baddie trying to avoid the Gwath-wagon, but as it is, it looks innocent enough.

#168

Gwath for Fea. Known innocent following Nog. Indeed, it didn't look too good at the time. Mnemi then proceeds to defend Fea to Gwath. I might have done the same at that point, so I don't think it's suspicious.
Nog, however, starts suspecting Fea's defenders. He seems edgy and jumpy. I would suspect him strongly, if I hadn't seen him get all single-minded like this in other games, too, and turn out innocent.

#196
Izzy for Gwath. It looks rather bad at this point, especially since she admits “it may be your style”. She ties him with Sally and Steve.

#211
Sally for Fea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sally
Her comments earlier were fairly normal for her, but at the same time....bad vibes and all.
Not sure what to make of this. Voting for the leading lynchee because of “bad vibes” looks a little fishy – I can see a “bad vibes” vote early in the day, when there is little to go on, but here?

#215

Mnemi for Steve:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mnemi
All right, I don't feel terribly great about this, but

++Eonwe

Although I'm not terribly pleased to have Rikae in the ranks of people who voted for him...

Voting for him because he hasn't said much that's contributed to the game. A bit of Queen-spec (which I rather disagree with), banter, and then a random vote.

Nobody looks terribly suspicious. But while some people make me feel hot and cold, this one makes me feel decidedly lukewarm. I'd much rather lynch an unknown than someone I have some sort of a handle on. And I don't have a handle on anyone regarding Blackishness.
What, am I bringing down the “voted for Steve” property values or something? It's a typical ordo-with-little-to-go-on-Day1 sort of vote, though. (If Fea is evil, Mnemi will deserve a closer look).

#216

tp for Gwath
Quote:
Originally Posted by tp
Ah, crap. I hate this part. I have nothing against Gwath, Steve, or Sally, but I feel like I need to vote for one of them to save Fea.
Yep, nothing much to say there (except: why Gwath, and not Sally or Steve?)

#217
Brinn for Gwath without comment.

Conclusions:
Sally, Izzy, Steve, Lari, and to some extent, Nog, come out of the voting looking rather nasty. No one (as far as I can see) comes out looking especially nice, and Kath, Durie, and Hansy need to shape up and give decent reasons for their votes in the future *looks stern*.
__________________
The skies of this world were always meant to have dragons. When they are not there, humans miss them.
~Yes, I'm a guy!~
Rikae is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2009, 10:27 AM   #250
Lariren Shadow
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Lariren Shadow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Where the day meets the night
Posts: 607
Lariren Shadow is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Send a message via AIM to Lariren Shadow Send a message via MSN to Lariren Shadow
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikae View Post
Ok, what? Eh? Lari is new, but she's been around long enough to know how Nog plays Analysis means guilt? *facepalm* That's just what this game needs, more encouragement for under-the-reindeer playing.
I should know better than to defend my vote but...it was the trend in the past few games that those who were evil gave the best analysis. I know I should not base votes on previous games but it seemed the best vote for me at the time.

And done. No more defending.
__________________
Choose treachery, its more fun!
Lariren Shadow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2009, 10:52 AM   #251
wilwarin538
Fluttering Enchantment
 
wilwarin538's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,660
wilwarin538 is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.wilwarin538 is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Send a message via MSN to wilwarin538
Silmaril

Well this is iterrible, it's too bad Eomer is gone so soon, he makes the game so interesting, and then Nerwen being the Rook is aweful, don't like the idea that we lost a gifted plus there are all these gifted baddies. Makes me very uneasy.

Don't have a lot to say right now, I've caught up on everything but I'm in a bit of a rush at the moment, I should be back in a few hours to give a new list on my opinions of everyone and such. I've already seen a few things here and there that I don't like, I'll clarify on all that when I get back. Just wanted to let you all know I was around.
__________________
Comme une étoile amarante Comme un papillon de nuit C'est la lumière qui m'attire La flamme qui m'éblouit
Fenris Muffin
wilwarin538 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2009, 11:46 AM   #252
Feanor of the Peredhil
La Belle Dame sans Merci
 
Feanor of the Peredhil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: perpetual uncertainty
Posts: 5,956
Feanor of the Peredhil is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Feanor of the Peredhil is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Feanor of the Peredhil is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.
Send a message via MSN to Feanor of the Peredhil
Lists:

Paraphrased, because you guys talk too much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by the phantom View Post
Sally- Black Rook
Durelin- White Knight
Mnem- WereDuck
phantom- Sauron
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kath
Mnemo - ducks have been proven to be evil in the past, I'll go with that!
Sally - oh definitely evil.
phantom - clearly a pawn trying to get to the other side of the board by making himself look important.
Izzy - erm, fiery depths? Not keen!
Brinn - I think innocent, therefore guilty.
Eomer - definitely innocent, at least for as long as it takes to see what this new persona is about.
Nerwen - thoughtful.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nog
Sally: nothing to say on her but the usual uneasiness.
Brinn: nothing of any special interest; Perfectly innocent sounding and therefore all alarms should be on as it’s Brinn!
Eomer: looks cryptic but speaks sense.
Nerwen:
should be more verbiose when she comes in the next time.
Kath’s post is just downright terrible. I could consider voting her just on principle for that; she feels a need to underline the randomness of her vote? If she's innocent that's irresponsible behaviour - and if not, then the sooner we lynch her the better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nog
Mirandir’s and Gwath’s appearances are just awful. Which means: nothing. If one of you is a baddie and you both get through Day1 with that effort we deserve to lose
Wilva’s “be prepared for me to bandwagon” is just odd pre-empting of what’s possibly to come.
Eönwë and Lari are enigmas to me right now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nog
Fea: After not saying practically anything toDay she makes a "eenie-meenie-miny" -vote, which behaviour I still dislike a lot.
Dury: wishes some people to be lynched but decides to be as random as possible picking someone with guts and then trying to explain it away both ways (like it's nothing & sorry Sally).
Eönwë: If you had a reason to vote for Gwath, why do you say it's "semi-random" then? What's the matter with all of you?
Eomer: Finally someone giving reasons for his vote... Although... Now it looks a bit too convenient vote to my taste. You're careful not to suspect others but just imply you have seen similar behaviour around to look good and not to get anyone on you to retaliate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nog
Mirandir - She should have more time to make her presence felt - but if she's not going to do it later toDay ot ToMorrow I'd be glad to vote her out. But probably not toDay.
Durelin - One of my all-time enigmas. I find her vote the most confusing. She could do a bit better as a baddie and be like that in a rush and innocent. - feels foul.
Fea- She's intelligent enough to make better claims on Day1 so a frustrated innocent then? No. The note about me saying interesting things (when there were no other commnets on anyone else in the vote-post) bothers me a lot.
Isabellkya - If there is a submarine-baddie she's one of my top candidates for that role. Somehow my gut-feeling just tells the contrary at the moment.
Nerwen - I don't see the suspicions around her but wouldn't trust her either.
Eomer of the Rohirrim - Speaks sense which is highly appreciated. Still his vote left me a bit concerned about his motives.
the phantom - Let's see his track-record on Day3 or something if he's still around.
Brinniel - not my top worry right now.
satansaloser2005 - no special alarms as yet.
Gwathagor - I'd like to see him post more to be sure but will not vote him toDay.
Lariren Shadow - I really suspect her. But I'm not too sure about it.
wilwarin538 - I think she should have a chance for another Day at least.
Rikae - I'm not going to vote Rikae on Day1 unless I have strong reasons to do so. And as now I don't seem to have one.
Eönwë - A hunker-down baddie who wants to make a presence or just an ordo with nothing to say?
Mnemosyne - Looking at her posts closer makes me feel better of her. I mean her alliances.
Kath - I could vote for her just because of the way she acts - and it's not only a principle at work here but also the particular way she did it this time.
Hansy - Maybe he's the cobbler, maybe he's not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerwen
Hansy. seems too confused about the rules of the current game to be a wolf (are we calling them wolves?), and probably too flamboyant to be the Black Queen. Might be the Black Pawn... in fact, he reminds me a lot of Lal when she was a cobbler.
Rikae: seems awfully opportunistic after I'd just been given the first vote of the Day, and that a completely random one.
Kath. Would an innocent Kath vote like that? But then, would an evil Kath vote like that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lari
Mira: I think she is innocent
Durelin: Not sure
Fea: She could be the seer, but I don't think that's her style.
Isabellkya: not much to go on
Nerwen: Hasn't said a lot and I can see that's been because of the lack of internet.
Eomer: He has been making sense.
the phantom: could be a lot of help later in the game.
Brinn: I have no idea. I don't think I'm good at reading her though.
Sally: I can’t really get a good read on her.
Gwath: I wish I had more to say about people.
Wilwa: Really truly want something to be able to say.
Rikae: the Seer banter with Fea could be two Wolves trying to communicate. Or it could be innocents just playing around, which is entirely possible considering.
Eonwe: Nothing.
Nog: Has posted an analysis of the posting pages which points to guilt because it’s easy to find fault where there is none in analysis.
Syne: I think that you warrent watching.
Kath: Blah stupid Day 1.
Hansy: Newbie.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Izzy
Rikae brings up good points/questions in regards to the Cobbler.
Hansy and phantom discuss mechanics.
Mnemosyne makes a good point that we look at both the wolves and the bear; while not at the expense of on, in favor of the other.
Gwath says we ought to focus on neither/both in regards to the wolves and the bear.
Mira and Mnemosyne wonder about Hansy's playing experience, and whether or not he may be playing up the newbie card.
Hansy. I'm not yet worried about him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nog
Sally- I'm afraid she's the "easy lynch" this time.
Nerwen, Hansy or Gwath I would be very reluctant to aid lynching toDay either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by phantom
Fea feels fine. Rikae too.
Nog- I would lean innocent for him.
Eomer -what he has said thus far has been to my liking.
Mnem- hasn't done anything to make me wish her dead .
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nog
Isabell- off my vote-list toDay
Lari looked reasonable
Kath, Fea, Dury and Eönwë. The three first trying to slip under the radar with nonsense and randomness and Eönwë for showing a presence with nothing to say in concrete terms.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Izzy
phantom, Nog, Rikae, Fea, and Sally stick out most in my mind, because of their typical behavior.
Sally for silliness,
phantom, Rikae, and Fea because they always seem to be the more daring.
Nog because I can always expect to see long analyzing posts from him.
Mnemosyne, Gwath, and Hansy stick out in my mind.
Hansy- I've played with him elsewhere, and curious to see how he does and likes this style.
Mnemosyne and Gwath- something just doesn't seem quite right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by I accidentally typed 'Fea' so I don't know who said this now
Eönwë "easy option" toDay (alongside Sally); the way he is at the top of the posting-list and has managed to say nothing definitive or particular bothered me.
Rikae- I have no case against Rikae, but her vote clearly fits in with a clever-baddie wishing to get away with Day1 quite nicely.
Kath I'm afraid I'd be going on with a habit of suspecting her
Dury her voting post is just so crazy (three different and almost exclusive reasons given at the same time + trying to apologise afterwards) that it might speak more of her being in a hurry and with no stakes in the game than actually being a baddie.
Fea played it safe + there was this odd addenda in her votepost that I couldn't read as anything other than as a way of trying to contact someone she thought she could gain from.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilwa
Mirandir: don't really have a feel yet
Durelin: inclined to keep him around
Fea: safe.....for toDay atleast
Izzy: I'm inclined to think innocent so far
Nerwen: Seems to be thinking logically
Eomer: I'm gonna give him a chance, he's definitely entertaining
the phantom: is safe toDay for me
Brinniel: not sure yet, a maybe perhaps, on my list
Sally: got voted for twice already, had computer difficulties, I understand that, won't be holding it against her today
Gwathagor: I don't know about him either, but he's on my list.
Lariren: Focused on roles alot, though so did most, but posted a fairly lengthy post so I'm inclined to let her be for now
Rikae: I have a good feeling about her, like her style, for now
Eonwe: not sure, on my list
Nogrod: seems innocently enough
Mnemo: Confusing, but he's a noobie
Kath: random vote for Nerwen isn't exactly like her, though it makes me uneasy I'd like to give her another day
Hansy: new so I'm willing to keep him around
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brinn
Mirandir: I need more time and more from her to get a better read.
Durelin: She is one to watch closely, but I'd rather not see her go just yet.
Fea: I don't have any strong opinions about her as of now.
Izzy: no reason to vote her.
Nerwen: neutral
Eomer: Too mysterious for me to form an opinion on him just yet.
the phantom: seems innocentish to me. That probably means that he is, in fact, guilty.
Sally: looks more innocentish than guilty to me
Gwathagor: I just don't like when someone votes for another only based on another player's reasoning.
Lariren: Has been very thoughtful. I feel good about her so far.
wilwarin: So I'd rather not see her go anytime soon.
Rikae: Not raising any alarm right now.
Eonwe: a bit suspicious, though it's a bit early to tell.
Nogrod: But if innocent, he can be quite helpful, so I'd rather not see him go so early again. Plus, I do feel a bit guilty that I was partially responsible for his last two early deaths.
Nemo: I can't help but feel slightly worried about her. I won't vote her toDay because she is a new addition, but she is one I'd like to watch closely.
Kath: She's voted randomly before and it doesn't point to either innocence or guilt.
Hansy: could be anything.
Okay. That took a while. And it's going to take me a while to go back through again and find anything important.

Remember I'm looking for patterns. All of these are from Day 1 which means that two people were dreamed of (unless the White Queen gets dreams too; I hate not knowing the nature of a role), and there ought to be hints in here. Lists, as people well know, are a good way to figure out somebody's sincerity and somebody's inclinations.

Be back after lunch... sugar crash again...
__________________
peace
Feanor of the Peredhil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2009, 01:01 PM   #253
Nogrod
Flame of the Ainulindalë
 
Nogrod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Wearing rat's coat, crowskin, crossed staves in a field behaving as the wind behaves
Posts: 9,051
Nogrod has passed beneath the Argonath.Nogrod has passed beneath the Argonath.Nogrod has passed beneath the Argonath.Nogrod has passed beneath the Argonath.Nogrod has passed beneath the Argonath.Nogrod has passed beneath the Argonath.
Send a message via MSN to Nogrod
As I saw that tp had already taken the task of cleaning the game board, I have spent my day polishing you pieces. And how nicely you shine now!

Okay. We really need to get that Black Queen, pronto. I don't know if there's any way or method to it as it would be really easy to hide being there alone. Well, I say look at the most agreeable people; those who are the least controversial as in a tough place one tends to not vote for the one whom s/he feels more at ease with or who rubs you the right way. And the BQ has all the chances to play like that as she shouldn't know anything more than we do.

I mean the trio knows each other and may be tempted to cover each other in a tight place or anyhow take stance on people whose role they know. And that normally gives one leads into suspecting someone. But to stop this double-killing we'd need to get all the three first!

So the BQ would be top on our agenda. The problem being that finding her out is more up to luck than our abilities. And meanwhile the trio gets knowledge everyNight by their bishop...

Well, let's heighten our spirits a bit.

Short count says that if we get all the three wolves in succesive Days beginning toDay, we're rid of the wolves and will only have one kill / Night after Day4. At that point - with no special help (eg. BQ killing one of the baddies for us, the Knight protecting someone succesfully...) we'll start Day5 with 6:1 ratio - which is not too bad.

But if we miss a single baddie during the next three Days the ratio becomes pretty tight. One miss in the following Days leads to the ratio of 4:2 on the beginning of Day5! Missing the lynch then would practically mean defeat.

So, summa summarum: of the next four lynches we basically have to lynch right three times. Otherwise we're dead meat (unless lady Fortuna aids us during the Nights). Unless we get the BQ... Nice scenario, isn't it?

I'm trying to go back and see whether there is anything worth pointing out in posting toDay & on the votes etc. from yesterDay.
__________________
Upon the hearth the fire is red
Beneath the roof there is a bed;
But not yet weary are our feet...
Nogrod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2009, 01:12 PM   #254
Rikae
Mellifluous Maia
 
Rikae's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: A glade open to the stars, deep in Nan Elmoth
Posts: 3,286
Rikae is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Rikae is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Rikae is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.
Where is everyone?

Fea, the list you listed as being listed by Fea is by Nog.

Lari
, what do you mean, you shouldn't defend your vote?

Seriously, people, we all need to talk. Back in a bit with something (hopefully) more helpful.
__________________
The skies of this world were always meant to have dragons. When they are not there, humans miss them.
~Yes, I'm a guy!~
Rikae is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2009, 01:22 PM   #255
Nogrod
Flame of the Ainulindalë
 
Nogrod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Wearing rat's coat, crowskin, crossed staves in a field behaving as the wind behaves
Posts: 9,051
Nogrod has passed beneath the Argonath.Nogrod has passed beneath the Argonath.Nogrod has passed beneath the Argonath.Nogrod has passed beneath the Argonath.Nogrod has passed beneath the Argonath.Nogrod has passed beneath the Argonath.
Send a message via MSN to Nogrod
I'm not sure if we should dwell too much on this but I got an idea while having a cigarette I think should be voiced as well so that everyone's aware of the possibility.

So two people died last Night. The one killed by the BQ and the other by the wolf team. Or is it so? Maybe this time, but maybe not every Night?

Looking at the disadvantage of the village from the beginning I have somehow thought all the time that the role of the WQ will involve an ability to do personal kills at Night as well. It would be a double-edged sword and some would use it very sparingly - but then others... I happen to remember my own game a long time back where Anguirel had this special Night-killing ability and he killed someone every Night of the game and finally championed the good ones to victory killing more baddies singlehanded than the village did with their lynches...

So looking at motives behind the kills last Night and further down the road should probably include an "baddie-motive-error-factor" - like later in the game if someone tries to fit the kills together and doesn't seem to get the pieces in order it might be that our WQ has something to do with them and not only the baddies...

Okay, now back to the data...
__________________
Upon the hearth the fire is red
Beneath the roof there is a bed;
But not yet weary are our feet...
Nogrod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2009, 01:26 PM   #256
Rikae
Mellifluous Maia
 
Rikae's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: A glade open to the stars, deep in Nan Elmoth
Posts: 3,286
Rikae is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Rikae is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Rikae is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.
Ah, but another thought:

Not sure why Nog is bemoaning the bleakness of the scenario like that. After all, the wolves and werebear could very well kill each other, the WQ may be able to kill them, and the ranger's chances of stopping a kill go up every night.
I would say it's extremely unlikely that no baddies will die by night in the next 3 days and they will manage to kill two innocents per night... at any rate, there are simply too many variables to predict the state of things on day 5. Maybe you're trying to rally people not to waste the lynch, which is reasonable enough, but painting the situation as nearly hopeless will just demoralize the village.

EDIT: X'd with Noggie.
A pretty far-fetched theory, and one that might help the evil side. I doubt Shasta would fail to make it clear, in that case, which role was responsible for which kill.
__________________
The skies of this world were always meant to have dragons. When they are not there, humans miss them.
~Yes, I'm a guy!~
Rikae is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2009, 01:28 PM   #257
Nogrod
Flame of the Ainulindalë
 
Nogrod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Wearing rat's coat, crowskin, crossed staves in a field behaving as the wind behaves
Posts: 9,051
Nogrod has passed beneath the Argonath.Nogrod has passed beneath the Argonath.Nogrod has passed beneath the Argonath.Nogrod has passed beneath the Argonath.Nogrod has passed beneath the Argonath.Nogrod has passed beneath the Argonath.
Send a message via MSN to Nogrod
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikae View Post

Fea, the list you listed as being listed by Fea is by Nog.
Right. How come half of the quotes are from me...

Now c'mon and play a bit more openly people! Everyone just lurking at the corners and avoiding attention will give us only lotteries in the end of the Day instead of a decent possibility to find out the baddies by looking at what people really think - or want us think they think.

Like Rikae said: discussion, please!
__________________
Upon the hearth the fire is red
Beneath the roof there is a bed;
But not yet weary are our feet...
Nogrod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2009, 01:42 PM   #258
Nogrod
Flame of the Ainulindalë
 
Nogrod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Wearing rat's coat, crowskin, crossed staves in a field behaving as the wind behaves
Posts: 9,051
Nogrod has passed beneath the Argonath.Nogrod has passed beneath the Argonath.Nogrod has passed beneath the Argonath.Nogrod has passed beneath the Argonath.Nogrod has passed beneath the Argonath.Nogrod has passed beneath the Argonath.
Send a message via MSN to Nogrod
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikae View Post
Maybe you're trying to rally people not to waste the lynch, which is reasonable enough, but painting the situation as nearly hopeless will just demoralize the village.
I was painting it as hopeless in an ironic tune. I'm not sure if I managed it - seemingly not. But the real point was, as you say, rallying people to get into this and not to think that as we have so many people around we can just look and see what happens.

Quote:
I doubt Shasta would fail to make it clear, in that case, which role was responsible for which kill.
I don't think that is anything like evident. It could well be that it is not revealed, at least openly.

Looking at the kills this far...
Quote:
Shasta - Ke3xe4, Night 1 (Moderator)
Gwathagor - d3xe4 (Lynched), Day 1 (White Pawn)
Eomer of the Rohirrim - Qd8xh4 (Killed), Night 2 (White Pawn)
Nerwen - Bc8xa6 (Killed), Night 2 (White Rook)
... might hint that last Night's kills were done by the baddies as the starting positions of the killers are Qd8 and Bc8 meaning the black opening side. But the lynch yesterDay was made from d3 meaning a pawn from d3 which exactly isn't anyone's starting position in a game of chess anyway - and neither is the killing of Shasta in the beginning (Ke3). So the initial position of a piece clearly is not the thing grants us firm knowledge of who the move-maker is as the possible position of the pieces in the board is not the opening set up anyway * (we don't even have all the pieces in the game to begin with), and if it's not, we have no way of telling what the board looks like and which piece is where.

Okay. Like I said, this is just an idea and we might need to revisit it on later Days if trying to figure out the reasoning behind the kills will give us problems but right now I'm not sure this merits too much pondering as it's immeadiate helpfulness toDay is doubtful.

EDIT: * and the killed piece seems to have been way out from it's initial position everytime someone has been killed...
__________________
Upon the hearth the fire is red
Beneath the roof there is a bed;
But not yet weary are our feet...
Nogrod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2009, 02:29 PM   #259
wilwarin538
Fluttering Enchantment
 
wilwarin538's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,660
wilwarin538 is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.wilwarin538 is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Send a message via MSN to wilwarin538
Alrighty, I'm back and I have re-read everything! Wow. K, so here's my list, with a rating from 1-10 (1 being snow white innocent, 10 being pitch black guilty, in my eyes), it has changed a lot from yesterDay, just cause I hadn't been as thorough yesterDay, so here it is:

Mirandir: Didn't say too much so she makes me uneasy, I find it interesting that she kept up so well with the vote tallys and yet wasn't able to vote. 8

Durelin: Not much to go on I find, so she too makes me a bit uneasy, I'm willing to hold off a bit though on her. 6

Fea: Is Fea, so I will wait til later to try and sort out exactly how I feel, so I can see more from her. 5

Izzy: Not really getting any negative vibes from her, so I'm gonna go with thinking innocent for now. 3

the phantom: He seems normal tp to me, so yet another neutral for me. 5

Brinn: I didn't like her yesterDay, but I'll admit I hadn't read her posts thoroughly, after re-reading them a bit I've come to be more comfortable with her, even though her vote did bring Gwath into the tie, but still don't see anything too baddie from her for now. 3

Sally: not much substance from her I find, but according to what people have said about her that's normal for her, so I don't really know, though my gut doesn't like her. 7

Lariren: I find she goes in circles a bit, seems to be tip-toeing and agreeing. So she makes me a bit unsure, but not necessarily all out suspicious. 6

Rikae: I'm fairly comfortable with her so far, I haven't seen anything suspicious. 3

Eonwe: Still don't like him very much, but he said he wouldn't be aroud toDay so I don't think I'll be voting for him again. 7

Nogrod: Talks alot, that makes me just as uneasy as the ones who never post. So I really don't know yet, I'll need to read all his many posts one more time to really get a feel, but so far not liking it. 6

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mnemosyne View Post
And I'm really quite miffed that it was Gwath who got the tie, even though he looked vaguely suspicious for jumping on Nog's reasoning like that. I considered retracting to put him in the lead after that flurry of crosspost votes, but couldn't do it in good conscience since he was giving information and appeared to be nothing more to me than a misguided innocent.
Mnemo: Because of the above post I really am not feeling good about her. Just something about that little part feels wrong to me, like she's saying "haha I knew he was innocent", just not liking it at all. 8

Kath: Really badly want her to post. 5

Hansy: Seems to be pretty savvy considering this is his first game, uneasy but will let him be toDay unless he says something later on toDay that I don't like. 6

Therefore my possible vote will be for Mira or Mnemo, though Sally is a possibility aswell.

Be back in a couple hours to re-evaluate. Study time.
__________________
Comme une étoile amarante Comme un papillon de nuit C'est la lumière qui m'attire La flamme qui m'éblouit
Fenris Muffin
wilwarin538 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2009, 02:29 PM   #260
Isabellkya
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Isabellkya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Amongst trees.
Posts: 919
Isabellkya is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
If Phantom was sweeping, and Nog was polishing - then I was staring off into space pretending to do whatever task I was supposed to be doing. xD

That is clever. At first look, the position notations seem to be close to gibberish to me.

I don't think Shasta could quite keep it perfectly accurate every time.
Since each piece can only move in a certain way, by technicality.
So, in theory - wouldn't he make it as accurate as possible. So in the killing blows, the move to take the piece was akin to that of its moving constraint?


X'd with Wilwa
__________________
But I was clinging to her like a homicidal monkey.
Isabellkya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2009, 02:31 PM   #261
Rikae
Mellifluous Maia
 
Rikae's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: A glade open to the stars, deep in Nan Elmoth
Posts: 3,286
Rikae is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Rikae is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Rikae is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.
I took a closer look at Izzy...

Post #26 – Banter

#79 – Explaining Hansy

#89 – Jokes with tp, argues against discussing white queen's role:
“In reality, what good would it be to in-depthly theorize about what the White Queen may or may not be able to do?
We won't know (I assume) until the game is over. So, what kind of help is that going to lend us; when dealing with the evilies that we do know about?”

Probably more good than Izzy is doing at this point, I reckon.

#95 more joking with tp

#133
Doesn't want to vote randomly, although she otherwise would, because “it feels too much like bandwagoning” with so many others doing it. I don't like this. It could very easily mean “it looks too much like bandwagoning – those who did it are getting pressure, and I want to play it safe”
A lot of descriptions of what's been going on, with no substantial commentary.
Repeats my question about the cobbler, for no apparent reason. Also creepy – a bit “hey! Cobbler! Over here!”.
A lot of agreeing with (no offense, Gwath and Mnemi) pretty empty statements about looking for the wolves and bear... then goes after Mnemi for bringing it up:
“I have a question Mnemosyne. If dwelling too much on The White Queen would be baddie like behavior, or giving them ideas. Well what is bringing back up a topic from two pages ago? Wouldn't that be in the same realm?”
Says Hansy's ideas are not outlandish. I assume you mean the bit about cheating? Hmph.

#141 – Gwath is worrying her with short posts (note, this is after he has received his first vote and some suspicion). Backs off Mnemi. Now the really weird part:
instead of listing suspects and presumed innocents, she lists people who “stick out in” her mind. The reasons she gives are strange, too – me, Nog, Phantom, Fea and Sally for our usual behavior (is this an attempt to insinuate that we're suspicious because of our “usual behavior” without saying so, or what?) and Hansy, Mnemi and Gwath – only the latter two because she suspects them, though.

#146 More going after Gwath for short posts and banter.

#175 Explaining self to Nerwen

#196 Doesn't find Fea suspicious. Votes Gwath, saying:
“I am going to stick with my earlier doubts. It may be your style, which I can't blame you for. I had a brief chance to try and sift through your past games - and only had time to quickly go through your most recent one's first Day. You seemed to be a bit more aggressive in it, than you are here. What that says, not entirely sure. I'd rather vote for one I've got doubts on, than leave it to a toss of a die.”

#206 Vote count

#214 Minor comments

Conclusion: Bad. Wolf. Bad. Wolf.

EDIT: X'd with Wilwa and Izzy.
__________________
The skies of this world were always meant to have dragons. When they are not there, humans miss them.
~Yes, I'm a guy!~
Rikae is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2009, 02:32 PM   #262
the phantom
Beloved Shadow
 
the phantom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: The Stadium
Posts: 6,121
the phantom is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.the phantom is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.the phantom is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.
Send a message via MSN to the phantom
Eye

*phew*

Polishing the game board is hard work. But it's looking nice and shiny now, so I can finally take a proper look back at the previous moves and give my take on the vote, why the kills were made, who Nerwen might've been hunting, etc.

Don't expect a post extremely soon though. I'm just now starting my reading.
__________________
the phantom has posted.
This thread is now important.
the phantom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2009, 02:39 PM   #263
Hansy
Animated Skeleton
 
Hansy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 34
Hansy has just left Hobbiton.
fragmented post

Okay, after reading Day 1 up to my last post, I think that, had I done it earlier, I would've probably voted for Sally. She's done basically the same as last game - besides that, instead of disappearing after the banter, she vaguely comments stuff that has been discussed already - thus adding nothing useful, maybe trying to look good. That's mostly post #73.

I think Nogrod is evil. I don't quite know why I feel that way; I'll look him again, trying to find it out.

The Fea/Nogrod case; she was seeing clues in her own post before Nogrod had said anything (excluding his pretty Alice quote - could that be taken as a hint itself? I have no idea). So, she was at least prone to think there was something hidden, Nogrod happened to answer her back, the character is called "Han Solo" itself, pretty convenient for an hint... but there's more to that. You'll notice Fea was herself making more and more questions, just like if she wanted to get more "evidence" against me. So, what is this about? I claim she plotted the whole thing from the beginning, to incriminate me. But why me? I should be just a silly newbie. The thing is, I was a last resort solution. Because she wanted to incriminate Lommy. But she isn't playing. So, she thought, why waste such a brilliant plan to break havoc in the game? And it happened.
Of course, all that tells us is that Fea is an evil mastermind. It says nothing about her alignment in this game - and I'm tempted to believe she's most probably innocent. But that leads us to another funny subject, "Save Fea!"

Most of you shall know this business better, but here's the pattern I noticed:

1. Fea acts suspiciously and puts herself in line for execution.
2. Fea's fan club panics and focus on a random lynch to save Fea from being executed.
3. The random lynchee turns out innocent. Now Fea may, or may not, be in even more danger.

So, it's not really efficient.


Making lists is a hard work. I discovered that while trying to make one, during the Night. Well, you can have this:

Likely innocent:
Lari, Fea, Rikae, Isa, Brinn (although she doesn't count because it seems she will always look innocent).

Likely evil:
Sally, Nog, Mira, Eonwe

I have no idea:
Durelin, Kath, TP, Nemo

----

that's all for now, going off for dinner.

(crossed since Nog's post 586330, probably there's a whole new page already)
Hansy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2009, 03:21 PM   #264
Nogrod
Flame of the Ainulindalë
 
Nogrod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Wearing rat's coat, crowskin, crossed staves in a field behaving as the wind behaves
Posts: 9,051
Nogrod has passed beneath the Argonath.Nogrod has passed beneath the Argonath.Nogrod has passed beneath the Argonath.Nogrod has passed beneath the Argonath.Nogrod has passed beneath the Argonath.Nogrod has passed beneath the Argonath.
Send a message via MSN to Nogrod
Have you seen Steve's (Eönwë's) post in the admin thread?

I suggest we leave him be at least toDay - and if he happens to be a baddie we scorn him for the rest of his life for free-riding in an immoral fashion...

*I just realised that I had left a few pieces unpolished... back soon*


Okay, then for something completely different.

I'm still uneasy with Fea. Then again I'm also thinking she's most probably the Black Pawn and thence I'm not too sure we should waste a lynch on her if we have any decent option of lynching an actual killer-baddie.

Let me make my point in short one more time as it seems many people just don't get it.

So she makes that little and totally unconnected remark in her voting post saying I have "a way of saying interesting things on Day One" which follows after her telling she's in no mood to be nice to newbies (as a reason for her vote for Hansy).

Then after being questioned why she said that, she admits that she made the remark because she thought I was the seer.

Now why would an innocent go on making such a statement if she had a feeling someone was the seer? She has never answered this - and I can't see why any decent innocent would act like that in the first place. Especially if she thought that I had the most valuable information of all eg. knowing the identity of the BQ which was part of her explanation?!!!

But what kind of bothers me the most right now is her post toDay about it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fea
Quote:
Originally Posted by tp
suppose someone questioned why she mentioned Nog as support for her vote- how could she have explained that away in a manner that did not point a death-arrow at NogBishop?
Did you have a plan for that Fea?
In the event that I was right about him being Seer, and anybody noticed my comment but him, I intended to lie through omission about thinking he was the Seer, and would have amplified my faith in his ordinary intelligence and the organized mode of his rather linear thinking, which is often at cross purposes with my typically incoherent mind.
The question now becomes...
a) did she really have that thought out well before making the statement or is this invented afterwards (as her previous answer seemed to be in the crucial respects)?
b) and even more importantly: why did she make that original point about her thinking me to be the seer if she had to have millions of cover-plans for it if someone who shouldn't notice it would notice it? What was the rationale for it?


No innocent would say that aloud even if she thought that.

A cobbler might wish to point out a possible seer to the baddies. The motivation and the way she carries this through points neatly toward cobblerism.

A Black Queen wishing to point to the baddies who to kill / whom she will try to kill the coming Night then? In that case either the trio didn't get the hint or... and here we come to this possibility of the WQ being on action toNight... so maybe Fea really tried to kill me but the ranger covered me - and thus Eomer was killed by the WQ (it was a Q who took Eomer last Night but the table didn't tell us whether it was Black or White Queen who did it...)? In that case I'll be dead meat toMorrow. Baddies seldom leave an opportunity to kill someone without a danger of being distracted by the ranger unused if they have been frustrated once by her/him.

The likelihood of these scenarios is quite clear to me.

So Fea is up to no good but I can't see a believable scenario for her to be a member of the trio. The possibility of her being the BQ doesn't look too good either but is clearly better than the previous one. But her actions fit very nicely to her being the cobbler.

So she's a cobbler then. QED

Which means I should find someone else to vote for toDay as we can't afford yet another mislynch.

EDIT: Because of the extra polishing-job I seem to have X'd with a host of posts...
__________________
Upon the hearth the fire is red
Beneath the roof there is a bed;
But not yet weary are our feet...
Nogrod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2009, 03:40 PM   #265
Lariren Shadow
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Lariren Shadow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Where the day meets the night
Posts: 607
Lariren Shadow is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Send a message via AIM to Lariren Shadow Send a message via MSN to Lariren Shadow
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikae View Post
Lari[/B], what do you mean, you shouldn't defend your vote?
The last time I went and defended my vote it backfired horribly. And I also had to explain it so many times so I thought I would do it once and be done with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hansy View Post
The Fea/Nogrod case; she was seeing clues in her own post before Nogrod had said anything (excluding his pretty Alice quote - could that be taken as a hint itself? I have no idea). So, she was at least prone to think there was something hidden, Nogrod happened to answer her back, the character is called "Han Solo" itself, pretty convenient for an hint... but there's more to that. You'll notice Fea was herself making more and more questions, just like if she wanted to get more "evidence" against me. So, what is this about? I claim she plotted the whole thing from the beginning, to incriminate me. But why me? I should be just a silly newbie. The thing is, I was a last resort solution. Because she wanted to incriminate Lommy. But she isn't playing. So, she thought, why waste such a brilliant plan to break havoc in the game? And it happened.
Of course, all that tells us is that Fea is an evil mastermind. It says nothing about her alignment in this game - and I'm tempted to believe she's most probably innocent. But that leads us to another funny subject, "Save Fea!"
I see where you're referring to but then looking at it again Fea also then says, paraphrased, "wow, that was really silly of me". So yes, for a post, in fact post 145 Fea was like "zomg Hansy...no wait I was on crack."

I'm not saying Fea couldn't have done this, but it just seems...highly unlikely. I can't really see her doing this. And your argument doesn't feel right to me. It seems really skiddish.

I think I might take a closer look at Hansy, or do so in a list that I will be writing.

Edit: x-posted with Nog.
__________________
Choose treachery, its more fun!

Last edited by Lariren Shadow; 02-23-2009 at 03:41 PM. Reason: x-posting
Lariren Shadow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2009, 03:46 PM   #266
Isabellkya
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Isabellkya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Amongst trees.
Posts: 919
Isabellkya is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Very quickly.
To Nog, I believe we were told it was the Black Queen whom killed Eomer
If I am not mistaken, the d8 is the starting point of the Queen - and is a dark square. Also, if I am not mistaken - the Queens begin the game on a square of their own color.

So d8 is a dark square, meaning it was specified as the Black Queen whom killed Eomer.
__________________
But I was clinging to her like a homicidal monkey.
Isabellkya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2009, 03:58 PM   #267
Shastanis Althreduin
Werewolf Psychic
 
Shastanis Althreduin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: In fire, water, earth, and air. But mostly water.
Posts: 2,619
Shastanis Althreduin is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Shastanis Althreduin is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Shastanis Althreduin is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.
A voice from the abyss...

I'd like to point out that the chess notation denoting the lynches is for plot purposes only, as this particular setting doesn't lend itself well to lengthy plots.

The chess notation denoting kills during the night.... well.

Of course I'd also like to point out that I would have written a successful protection into the plot. Seemed like a rule clarification I should clear up.
__________________
Shasta– ... However, if he's innocent his famous clairvoyant powers must be taking the week off. Meanwhile, the Night-kills have been awfully effective– almost like we're dealing with a psychic wolf... - Nerwen, WW LXXV
Shastanis Althreduin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2009, 04:05 PM   #268
Nogrod
Flame of the Ainulindalë
 
Nogrod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Wearing rat's coat, crowskin, crossed staves in a field behaving as the wind behaves
Posts: 9,051
Nogrod has passed beneath the Argonath.Nogrod has passed beneath the Argonath.Nogrod has passed beneath the Argonath.Nogrod has passed beneath the Argonath.Nogrod has passed beneath the Argonath.Nogrod has passed beneath the Argonath.
Send a message via MSN to Nogrod
Oh my... it's coming midnight here and I need to wake up at 6.30...

I suspect all of you, quite equally right now. And the only one I feel comfortable with my judgement is Fea who is a bad lynch for toDay as we need a killing-baddie and not a cobbler...

I think I need to count on your good judgement as my time for toDay runs out.

I try to wake up a bit earlier tomorrow so that I could see if I have a reason to retrack my vote but that remains to be seen if I'm able to do that. Sorry about the little input I managed toDay but polishing you guys takes time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isabell
To Nog, I believe we were told it was the Black Queen whom killed Eomer
If I am not mistaken, the d8 is the starting point of the Queen - and is a dark square. Also, if I am not mistaken - the Queens begin the game on a square of their own color.
So d8 is a dark square, meaning it was specified as the Black Queen whom killed Eomer.
I already discussed that in my post #258 and think it highly likely that was the case last Night - but not all the pieces have been in their starting positions so we should be aware of not reading them too self-evidently as it seems there is something like a pre-set starting situation there - like in Lewis Carroll's Through the looking glass... and anyone familiar with "chess-problems" knows, those positions can be anything (eg. positions one would never reach in an actual game).


Okay some pondering and a vote coming soon.

EDIT: X'd with Shasta... nice crosspost that was...
__________________
Upon the hearth the fire is red
Beneath the roof there is a bed;
But not yet weary are our feet...
Nogrod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2009, 04:07 PM   #269
Isabellkya
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Isabellkya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Amongst trees.
Posts: 919
Isabellkya is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Which causes a bit of o.O in my head at the moment.

In post #258, you talked about the black opening side because of the starting positions notated next to the list of dead people.
Which seems to mean, that you know a thing or two about chess.
Yet in #264, you say that the table did not specify which Q it was, but as already said - you'd already pointed out that the pieces were on the black opening side.
So wouldn't that alone, tell you that it was the BQ responsible?
Why the.. waffling (best word which comes to mind at the moment.) ?

On the other hand -
In #258 you also said that the opening starting positions may not tell us anything because of the lynching and killing of Gwath and Shasta.
Here is a theory - couldn't those things, mainly such as lynchings - be for the sole purpose of the plot? So they are a part of the game, but not falsely incriminating someone? When I say falsely incriminating - let me elaborate. I don't think Shasta could or would in his notation attribute the lynchings to the WQ/BQ/WB/BB etc.. Wouldn't that in a sense, not make sense?

Drat. Got sidetracked with my rereading.


X'd with Shasta and Nog.
__________________
But I was clinging to her like a homicidal monkey.
Isabellkya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2009, 04:09 PM   #270
Durelin
Estelo dagnir, Melo ring
 
Durelin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 3,121
Durelin is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Durelin is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Man, poor Gwath...how many early lynches is that for him?

I love how the two lynchee possibilities were Fea and Fea's secondary attacker rather than her initial attacker. I guess because people are still obsessed with the bandwagon concept? I don't know.

Brinniel, as far as I can tell, did a 180 from voting Fea and to voting Gwath at the last minute.

And I love how Hansy summed up the whole thing.

But you know what, I have no desire to talk about that much more, because it normally ends up to be just a distracting mess. But on the other hand, I wouldn't mind seeing Fea gone at all. I get very sick of people saving one another at the loss of someone else simply because they like someone more. It only proves further that any sort of democratic system is a mindless popularity contest.

*shakes fist at the system*
Durelin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2009, 04:11 PM   #271
the phantom
Beloved Shadow
 
the phantom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: The Stadium
Posts: 6,121
the phantom is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.the phantom is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.the phantom is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.
Send a message via MSN to the phantom
Eye

I'm part of the way through my reading. I've read the people with the fewest posts, including last Night's victims.

At this point I will say that the kills leave a rather empty trail. I can't see that either victim fingered anyone as innocent or guilty in a Seerish way (in a way that could be read decently after death), so the kills must have been based on more than White Bishop hunting. To make someone look bad, perhaps? Or was it based mostly upon safety- would leave no trail, or a faint wrong trail at the most, and the victim was considered unlikely to be, if the Rook, hunting you or your team mates.

As far as the Hunt is concerned, Nerwen didn't make it clear, did she? Maybe Rikae if I had to guess. Dunno...

Anyway, back to reading!
__________________
the phantom has posted.
This thread is now important.
the phantom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2009, 04:15 PM   #272
the phantom
Beloved Shadow
 
the phantom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: The Stadium
Posts: 6,121
the phantom is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.the phantom is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.the phantom is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.
Send a message via MSN to the phantom
Eye

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dur
I get very sick of people saving one another at the loss of someone else simply because they like someone more.
Just fyi, I certainly did not vote based upon this. Quite often I am happy to see Fea gone because I can never trust her and she never hesitates to kill me if she thinks it'll suit her ends. I made my save attempt because I truly believed I was getting a decent read on her, and after rereading her today I still think that she is not evil. I don't even suspect her of being Black Pawn.
__________________
the phantom has posted.
This thread is now important.
the phantom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2009, 04:22 PM   #273
Durelin
Estelo dagnir, Melo ring
 
Durelin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 3,121
Durelin is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Durelin is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
tp - But I also don't recall you having any true suspicion of Gwath, so I guess you're just saying you felt you had a better read on her being innocent than on Gwath being so?

Either way I say vote for who you think is guilty. Kay, peoples? (So yesterDay I voted for someone I did not think guilty, but I did not think anyone guilty as it was an early vote and I admit I had not had the chance to read any of the thread since I had earlier posted.)

Also, if we goodly people do that, then the baddies have to follow our lead and vote for someone "they think is guilty". They have to try to make cases and things like that, rather than just make friends by saying "oh I think this poor soul up for lynch here is innocent, so I am going to save them!"

End of useless blather. Guess I'll start actually following what I preach later and talk about someone guilty.
Durelin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2009, 04:29 PM   #274
Nogrod
Flame of the Ainulindalë
 
Nogrod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Wearing rat's coat, crowskin, crossed staves in a field behaving as the wind behaves
Posts: 9,051
Nogrod has passed beneath the Argonath.Nogrod has passed beneath the Argonath.Nogrod has passed beneath the Argonath.Nogrod has passed beneath the Argonath.Nogrod has passed beneath the Argonath.Nogrod has passed beneath the Argonath.
Send a message via MSN to Nogrod
Quote:
Originally Posted by Durelin View Post
And I love how Hansy summed up the whole thing.

But you know what, I have no desire to talk about that much more, because it normally ends up to be just a distracting mess. But on the other hand, I wouldn't mind seeing Fea gone at all. I get very sick of people saving one another at the loss of someone else simply because they like someone more. It only proves further that any sort of democratic system is a mindless popularity contest.
Even if I disagree with a lot Hansy said in his post I do agree with this one. His summing up (points 1 and 2 especially) I agree wholeheartedly.

Okay guys, be sporty! Like I and my daughters (Lommy & Greenie) are when in a game. We ruthlessly advocate lynching each other if we think we have a reason - and that goes also in a larger scheme of things to Aganzir and Volo as well who are our RL friends. I mean the reason why Fea the cobbler was not lynched yesterDay was friendship and not the arguments in the game. And we could be rid of a cobbler now...

Don't get me wrong: in a situation where I have no clue about who to vote I tend to vote for someone I think might not contribute to the game so much or to save someone who contributes or I enjoy a lot playing with. Sure. But during some last games I have gotten a feeling there is a kind of mutual consensus between some people to just keep on helping some others because of the social factor even if there are good reasons to vote differently...

Yes, I like to see tp around for more than one day, and Boro and Rikae and Mac, and Brinn and Nerwen and... *add a long list here* because I think they are nice people whom I know a bit and I know they will contribute to the game eg. play it. But if there is reason to belive one of them is a baddie I do not hesitate to vote them. That's called playing the game.

Blah, one distraction too much for me... Going back to look at voting...

EDIT: Kudos for your last one Dury! Good general points!
__________________
Upon the hearth the fire is red
Beneath the roof there is a bed;
But not yet weary are our feet...
Nogrod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2009, 04:32 PM   #275
satansaloser2005
The Sweetest Spoiler
 
satansaloser2005's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: from beneath you it giggles incessantly
Posts: 5,576
satansaloser2005 is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.satansaloser2005 is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.satansaloser2005 is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.satansaloser2005 is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.
Going through and reading, but I'd just like to say something quick, silly though it may be.


DUDE! Noggie, go to bed. We killed you off last game (that is, Brinn, Nerwen, and I) so you would get some sleep, but this game I'm not evil so you're on your own. Silly man, get some rest. Mistress Sally commands it.


And on that note some things from yesterDay. I'll hopefully do some more analysis on the votes, but the thing that really worried me was Phantom and Brinn right at the end of the Day, both glomping poor Gwathiepoo like that. (And yes, he's going to come from beyond the grave and totally smite me for calling him that, but it's just too fun to resist.) I'd certainly like to know if they x'd or if it was intentional bandwaggoning on one or both their parts. (I suppose if nothing else they both intended to separately bandwagon and both happened to do it at the same time, but it still strikes me as odd.)


And for Little Mnemo, I voted Fea because, of the suspects that were available, she looked the dingiest upon a short readthrough. Notice that Nerwen, Gwath, and I were/are all innocent (not that you'll believe me, but hey) so I still think I made the best choice. Besides, as I said shortly after I voted, I preferred to not have the lynch left up to Shasta and his coin flipping machine. We all know how that can end up. So, of the people who were close to the tie range, again, Fea was the best decision I could make at the time.



EDIT: x'd since....Izzy, I believe. I certainly don't remember seeing that post of Phantom's anyway.
__________________
"My heart always cowers behind the defense of my wit."
Friendship is two pals munching on a well-cooked face together.
Fenris bookworm.
satansaloser2005 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2009, 04:33 PM   #276
wilwarin538
Fluttering Enchantment
 
wilwarin538's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,660
wilwarin538 is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.wilwarin538 is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Send a message via MSN to wilwarin538
Silmaril Vote

Oh my, so it seems this will be my last chance to get on toDay, which I'm not overly happy about, something just came up that is totally unavoidable, so I will have to vote right now.

++Mnemosyne

As I stated before it is because of her first post toDay, just did not sit well with me at all, and after I re-read her posts from yeaterDay I found her very confusing and that just made me a bit more confident in suspecting her.

Sorry for my lack in contribution toDay. Good luck!

X-posted with Nogrod and Sally
__________________
Comme une étoile amarante Comme un papillon de nuit C'est la lumière qui m'attire La flamme qui m'éblouit
Fenris Muffin
wilwarin538 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2009, 04:35 PM   #277
Kath
Everlasting Whiteness
 
Kath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Perusing the laminated book of dreams
Posts: 4,510
Kath is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Kath is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Send a message via MSN to Kath
Hi all! Just to say I am here and am currently writing a post. It might take a while to go up as I'm being distracted by the Oscars but it's on it's way.
__________________
Great udders of disappointment!
Kath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2009, 04:59 PM   #278
Nogrod
Flame of the Ainulindalë
 
Nogrod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Wearing rat's coat, crowskin, crossed staves in a field behaving as the wind behaves
Posts: 9,051
Nogrod has passed beneath the Argonath.Nogrod has passed beneath the Argonath.Nogrod has passed beneath the Argonath.Nogrod has passed beneath the Argonath.Nogrod has passed beneath the Argonath.Nogrod has passed beneath the Argonath.
Send a message via MSN to Nogrod
I might almost vote you tp from that response you gave to Dury. I really don't believe a word from it - well okay some words maybe but overall it looks like a very bad apology.

The question is whether you tried to save Fea just because you love to play with her or because you realised that my argument about her being the cobbler was indeed believable as Fea would be on your side in voting & general hassle later on? I mean you have to prove your alliances in a way or another when you can't PM, and that would be a good way to do that? Building trust? Right?

Also the way you give the impression you understand everything that is going on and then go on being nice to everyone - and avoid making any actual suspicions - looks really like a standard intelligent baddie behaviour. What was it you said to me late yesterDay?
Quote:
Originally Posted by tp
And despite how much we disagree, I still think Nog is fine. And if he's right about Fea then I'll support whatever he does tomorrow.
To me that looks very suspicious indeed... Be nice to the one you're intending to kill later - after you have toyed with him first. No traces left as you have been leaning to trust that one person for a Day or two. You can say "oh my, why they killed him, I thought he was okay all the time!". I just think you overdid it there - or then it is the difference between American and Finnish culture of saying things...

And why did you have to defend your vote in the first place against Dury's point which wasn't actually anything big as such? Bad conscience perhaps?

I like the way you play but this time I think I have reasons to actually suspect you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sally
Silly man, get some rest. Mistress Sally commands it.
In a minute mom... in a minute...
__________________
Upon the hearth the fire is red
Beneath the roof there is a bed;
But not yet weary are our feet...
Nogrod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2009, 05:15 PM   #279
the phantom
Beloved Shadow
 
the phantom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: The Stadium
Posts: 6,121
the phantom is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.the phantom is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.the phantom is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.
Send a message via MSN to the phantom
Eye

Leave me alone till I'm done with my reading Nog.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nog
I really don't believe a word from it - well okay some words maybe but overall it looks like a very bad apology.
You think I'm the type to make an apology for voting a certain way? Whatever. I might say sorry to Gwath, but it would be more along the lines of "Sorry you were in the position you were in at the time that I needed someone to save Fea with". I do genuinely feel bad about him getting lynched the first day. I pretty much always feel bad for whoever gets killed Day 1 and Night 2, because they didn't get to play much. Any sorrow you may detect in my post had only to do with that feeling.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nog
Also the way you give the impression you understand everything that is going on and then go on being nice to everyone - and avoid making any actual suspicions
I told you quite clearly yesterday that I did not have any even halfway decent suspicions of guilt. It was Day 1. Is it really surprising? I mean come on, Nog. The logic that you are using on my defense of Fea and my vote does not function properly on Day 1.

And really- you suspect me because I disagreed with you and still thought you were innocent? That's just silly. Simple odds say you are innocent, and simple odds say that your heaviest suspicion yesterday was wrong, so really now. You have to do better than that, Nog.

Back to reading...
__________________
the phantom has posted.
This thread is now important.
the phantom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2009, 05:44 PM   #280
Nogrod
Flame of the Ainulindalë
 
Nogrod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Wearing rat's coat, crowskin, crossed staves in a field behaving as the wind behaves
Posts: 9,051
Nogrod has passed beneath the Argonath.Nogrod has passed beneath the Argonath.Nogrod has passed beneath the Argonath.Nogrod has passed beneath the Argonath.Nogrod has passed beneath the Argonath.Nogrod has passed beneath the Argonath.
Send a message via MSN to Nogrod
I agree with Rikae's points on Izzy. Also I would underline that I have played with Izzy a few games and know she's perfectly cabable of producing actual points but now she seems to shy away of making any actual thoughts.

I would be very much ready to vote for Kath for sheer inattendance but if there is a bigger post coming I will have to cease my verdict. She has the nasty way of sneaking through the first Days with just these RL-problems but then somehow she finds more time later in the game - and she has won (or gotten very far) a few times as baddie exactly that way.

Sally and Brinn bother me as well. Sally's vote yesterDay especially and Brinn's familiar carefulness and agreeableness just creep me out.

Dury feels like too straightforward and challenging to be a baddie - unless this league of friends is all goodies and she's a baddie of a bunch of relatively unconnected people and opens her frustration with the situation...

Rikae has good points but that's normal - whatever her role is. Somehow my guts once again yell that she's a baddie but I have no clear place to point the suspicion into. Maybe it's something to do with her slightly opportunistic stance eg. she goes on building cases or making remarks on subjects that are probably going to fall nicely to the general feeling or something? There is something fishy there even if I can't pinpoint it.

Okay. Time's out very soon...

(Hopefully I managed to get half of you mad and retaliatory with this! But really, this is what we need to do!)

A cigarette and a decision...


Oh no... first a quick answer...
Quote:
Originally Posted by tp
I told you quite clearly yesterday that I did not have any even halfway decent suspicions of guilt. It was Day 1. Is it really surprising? I mean come on, Nog. The logic that you are using on my defense of Fea and my vote does not function properly on Day 1.
Now you're avoiding the beef here. On Day1, yes, you're right, we rarely have anything on Day1... but this time we had... and have (albeit it's probably too late now to lynch a cobbler any more). You even agreed with the point but still managed to play away with it. Okay, I don't want to sound like a monomaniac but really the way you have acted looks more like "hey, I got this and will help this ally of mine looking as disinterested as possible". Not to say looking as agreeable as possible in the meantime eg. not trying to stir up any suspicions or retaliatory feelings. In which you're pretty darn good at. *envies* But really, what should innocents do; try to abstain from controversies just to keep their lives or to challenge and try others so that others might see things? You have been very uncontroversial this time and it spells devilry to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tp
And really- you suspect me because I disagreed with you and still thought you were innocent? That's just silly.
No. Not just because you disagreed and still said you thought me innocent, but the way in which you did it. And as a senior WW-gamer you know that those who talk the nicest to you by Day tend to be the ones who stab you at Nights. You're not that naïve to think that those who rub you the right way during the Days actually love you and wouldn't hurt you during the Night?

And let it be said that your willingness to engage in this whole discussions speaks it's own language. I don't remember you to have sticked into futile discussions about your possible guilt - as no one will lynch you; never and no one - you're for the wolves to decide? But if there are some semi-actual suspicions and you possibly are a baddie is this the way you (over)react then? Oh good God...

Okay. I'm not too sure about this and would hate to make a mistake here. I need to think about this once more before going to sleep. I mean I was going to vote for someone else as I would hate to lose your wits were you an innocent but now I will have to reconsider.
__________________
Upon the hearth the fire is red
Beneath the roof there is a bed;
But not yet weary are our feet...
Nogrod is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:32 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.