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Old 09-15-2010, 01:39 AM   #41
the phantom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerwen
From the Elvish point of view! From our point of view, the Elves are evil!
Seriously, stop taking this line on things people. I am going to be bad this game, darn it, and if you people keep putting forth this ridiculous notion that we are the good guys, I will have no choice but to become a Cobbler!

And no, I'm not the undetermined allegiance person. No bluffing here, just telling the truth. My allegiance is clear (evil), but if my entire team decides that they are in fact the good guys, then logically they have placed me on the other side. That's just the way it is.

Last week I snuck down to the Anduin and knifed a young boy and hid the knife beneath his sleeping brother's bed where I hope it will be found by someone and used as evidence of the brother's guilt. The week before that I mauled an old woman and left some great eagle feathers upon her. *snicker* And remember that little village I used to terrorize against the forest a bit farther north? The chief- I'd kill one of his friends or family each year on his birthday, ha ha! In the end he couldn't stand it and took his own life! *cackles with glee*

Don't tell me we're not as bad as they come! I know better!
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Old 09-15-2010, 01:48 AM   #42
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All right- seriously sleepy here. Before I go, just to make sure everyone knows what they need to know, a summary... Be sure to point newcomers back to this post, as it is doubtless the most important thing that will be posted until I'm back posting again tomorrow.

1) Vote Phantom for rep!
2) Phantom-Rep will not lynch his supporters.
3) We are Orcs. We should be evil and enjoy it!
4) If too many Orcs act like they're not evil, I'll turn against them.
5) No, that doesn't mean I'm that special role orc.
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Old 09-15-2010, 01:59 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loslote View Post
If tp was the Undecided Orc, he'd never have decided already. Surely you remember the game where he was Zeus, and killed his own Seer to even out the game? If he were the Undecided Orc, he would not decided instantly to align himself with the SoE, he'd choose whichever side was doing worst at the time when he had to choose.
Nah, that's just what he did that game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by the phantom View Post
Last week I snuck down to the Anduin and knifed a young boy and hid the knife beneath his sleeping brother's bed where I hope it will be found by someone and used as evidence of the brother's guilt. The week before that I mauled an old woman and left some great eagle feathers upon her. *snicker* And remember that little village I used to terrorize against the forest a bit farther north? The chief- I'd kill one of his friends or family each year on his birthday, ha ha! In the end he couldn't stand it and took his own life! *cackles with glee*
So? Serves 'em right! We all agree on that, don't we, lads?

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All right- seriously sleepy here. Before I go, just to make sure everyone knows what they need to know, a summary... Be sure to point newcomers back to this post, as it is doubtless the most important thing that will be posted until I'm back posting again tomorrow.

1) Vote Phantom for rep!
2) Phantom-Rep will not lynch his supporters.
Phantom-Rep should lynch his supporters if he comes to think they're those murdering Sons of Elrond! You mean you wouldn't?
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Old 09-15-2010, 02:05 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerwen View Post
Nah, that's just what he did that game.
And he said then, he likes fair and even games, and will try to balance the teams.

On that note, I have to be awake in six hours, so I'd better slip into that state from which I can awaken. Good Day, all.
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Old 09-15-2010, 04:04 AM   #45
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Mesa see this has already gotten pretty interesting even with just a few people.

Um... that wasn't me. Snaga speak better. But I would like to ask, how am I supposed to play since TP already used half of the good quotes before I even had the chance. But so, I can start already with looking at what's happening here...

I am not entirely sure about whether it is good to have such a rush in the beginning. I mean, we can now - and probably will, very likely - spend the rest of the Day discussing whether TP is good or bad or whatever, and whether to vote him for representative or not, while of course another wing of die-hard anti-supporters will emerge and wish to lynch him, or something like that. While having a topic to start with is better than bumping in the dark (sic), and I am sure it makes TP happy to have all the Day for himself, not sure if the way things have been focused on is the best to do it. But at the same time, it is at least a good topic for the start - and with such a topic, the way of people's behavior might nicely begin to show in people's reactions (and of course it will be most interesting to see this after tp is dead and we know his role, mwahaha *licks blade* ). But we have still a full Day in front of ourselves, and this is a big village, so I think there will be lots of time to speak of different things.

For start, what I think about the initial debate (and about phantom's proposal - but I will save the best for the latest, of course ). I have to agree with what's been said that tp acts according to his own ideas, and it might be that even as SoE he will be actually equally dangerous (because of this) to his pack. On the other hand, not sure if, with such an attitude, he can expect to last long.

Quote:
Originally Posted by the phantom View Post
Oh, and I also thought I'd mention that anyone that votes me for rep is completely safe for that day. No lie.
Okay, this is the one thing I really dislike - that's basically blackmail. It effectively means that "if you don't vote me, look, look, everyone else will do it, and then I will lynch you, because you will be the last remaining one". Speaking of that, I'd like to see what will you do with your promise if really everybody voted for you, phantom? Then people could only die at Night. Not that I think that you would think it will work - there will be always somebody who disagrees and will not vote you - but if it was like that, it would be the craziest way to make the Sons win. I must also say, there is one thing - if everybody unisono voted phantom, there will be lot less clues as well.

But now let me sum up what I think of phantom's proposal, personally. From the above already you can see, phantom, that I am not so keen on supporting you straightaway. While the idea might be good if you are good, sorry, I mean evil; I am not too keen on voting you, mostly just for the sake of that I think there will be more people - possibly like sally and Loslote - who either for lack of time, lack of Day 1 imagination or even for SoE-ish hiding in bandwaggon reasons (as already Nerwen well noted, and I think it is a good possibility) - will give their vote to you, and given how the system works in this game (if I understood it correctly), that will give tp-representative's vote tremendous power, even if there are a few other Representatives, each with his pitiful one vote or something like that (and I know, it is obvious that you will enjoy using the quote "Poweeeer! Un-limited poweeeer!" once you get there). Again, I think it is safer for the SoE if the votes do not split too much here - if it becomes all deed only of one Phantom, then even if he were innocent (read: innocent of murdering Orcs, not of all other things), we get no real clues from the lynch aside from "the phantom did it right/wrong". So because of this, I think I will rather go for somebody else, to offer a decent competition.

That's not to say I could not still vote you if you, say, keep only your two or three votes and nobody else votes you and you seem trustworthy. Apart from what I have said (which is an analysis), I have no reason to think your doings worth suspicion. In fact, I'd have found it most disturbing if you decided not to run for a representative - now that would be disturbing. I only find it unwise to vote you now. But we shall see. Still, we've had only a few people showing this far, so I am most interested to read from all the others, and see whom I deem worthy of my vote.
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Old 09-15-2010, 05:27 AM   #46
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Hearts
Legate
Nerwen (!!!)
Shasta

Does not heart
Sally
Lottie
phantom (jerk)

Really, the beginning(ish) of Day One and I already feel like jumping and screaming. Who the idiot came up with the idea for electing phantom as a representative? I really can't think of anything more stupid than carelessly giving your rep vote away in the beginning of the Day to vote some guy with terribly inflated ego just because he loves the attention. *glares at Sally and Lottie*

I think it would be a much better idea to make history in a different way - by lynching phantom on Day one. He claims, after all, that he's never been lynched.

/rant

*deep sigh*

Well, even if I try to think of this objectively, it doesn't look much better. I don't honestly understand why anyone - innocent or guilty - would throw away their rep vote so carelessly for somebody whose alignment they have no idea of (probably). The fact that there were two of them makes me quite worried. It doesn't help at all that Sally is claiming to amuse the mod and Lottie said she's voting early because she won't be around later but she still made several posts after her vote. It's just utter stupidity. The only scenario that makes sense is that one of them is a wolf with phantom and uses his phantomness and excuse to make an easy rep vote for a fellow and the other girl is just using the opportunity to mess around for fun.

As for phantom himself, I don't know what he's up to, and to be honest, I'm not very interested in spending all Day playing games with him to figure out if he's good or evil because he currently annoys me (although it's not his fault the two voted him for rep, of course).

Otherwise, there is not much to say yet. Should we discuss the rep rules? I think at least that it's ridiculous to make this into a disgusting politics game where you make parties like "you give me your vote, I won't lynch-vote you" - it's not silly but also dangerous: it becomes a war of clans where one's party matters more than their true alignment, which we definitely don't want in a werewolf game.

And I don't like the fact that we have 48 hours each Day. It tends to make people (myself included of course) lazy instead of enthusiastic to use the extra time for finding wolves.
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Old 09-15-2010, 05:55 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the phantom View Post
To be perfectly frank
Frank? Who's that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by the phantom View Post
Every last villager is going to vote me as representative today, as it would entertain the mods as well as be historic and funny. As a matter of fact, it wouldn't surprise me if I received all the rep votes every day of the contest. If the Sons win then all the orcs can say, "That blasted Phantom didn't vote well and lost it for us! Let's make fun of him!" And that would be great fun, of course. Or if the Sons lose then all the orcs can say, "Ha- I chose my rep well, didn't I?" And that would be fun as well.
Nar, too much power in the hands of one Orc isn't desirable. What's head-shaking is that you've already gotten two votes with your antics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerwen View Post
Who's this Emperor Palpatine he keeps talking about? Some filthy tark, I'll warrant!
I was wondering that myself! Seems to know more then he should.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thinlómien View Post
Really, the beginning(ish) of Day One and I already feel like jumping and screaming. Who the idiot came up with the idea for electing phantom as a representative? I really can't think of anything more stupid than carelessly giving your rep vote away in the beginning of the Day to vote some guy with terribly inflated ego just because he loves the attention. *glares at Sally and Lottie*
Right. Isn't it better to hold off and see what everyone has to say before making such an important decision? And actually, we aren't bound to voting anyone for rep, I don't think, even though it's a power we should exercise. If one doesn't have time to wait and examine everyone before voting though, I think not voting is the better option, as long as one has a very good excuse for not doing so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thinlómien View Post
I think it would be a much better idea to make history in a different way - by lynching phantom on Day one. He claims, after all, that he's never been lynched.
There's an idea!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thinlómien View Post
And I don't like the fact that we have 48 hours each Day. It tends to make people (myself included of course) lazy instead of enthusiastic to use the extra time for finding wolves.
Wolves? They're our friends!
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Old 09-15-2010, 06:08 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerwen View Post
Now, this is what I don't understand, my lass: why do you think one of these filthy Elves or their sneaking friends wouldn't want to murder our Seer first chance they get, no matter how the rules work exactly? Because they'll give 'emselves away? Nah! There's four of 'em, remember?
Erm....I'd originally thought we had more gifteds than that, actually. Sorry. o_O

Still, since I won't be back much toDay, I figured I'd give my Day One vote to someone I trust to at least be interesting and whom I think will be good to keep around.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin View Post
For this, Nerwen is probably getting my vote. I'm just saying.

That and I love her to pieces, yes I do. <3

Edit: X'ed with Phantom.
Well there's half of the SoE right there. That's a clear hint. Clear.


Quote:
Originally Posted by the phantom View Post
I never should've gone to YouTube to get that link, as there is so much LotR stuff I haven't watched in forever. I ought to be asleep now. *sigh*

Have you heard the news?

Classic voice-over

Sped up version

Just for Sally
And this is why I love you, dear.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Thinlómien View Post
Really, the beginning(ish) of Day One and I already feel like jumping and screaming. Who the idiot came up with the idea for electing phantom as a representative? I really can't think of anything more stupid than carelessly giving your rep vote away in the beginning of the Day to vote some guy with terribly inflated ego just because he loves the attention. *glares at Sally and Lottie*
Well, thanks. At least now I know who NOT to vote for in the future.

Really, Lommie, is that attitude necessary? I mean....really?


I have to go, as I'll be late for work otherwise. Phantom, darling, do right by me, okay?
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Old 09-15-2010, 06:32 AM   #49
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I am not evil! I am just a very serious case of negative social inheritance!

Anyways isn't this an awfully predictable start to our struggle? Already some orcs chose the path of placing a loud-mouth in the centre of attention. . . seriously, let him work a bit for the attention!

I'll return with as soon as I have mustered enough energy to read Legate's no doubt dreadful post.
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Old 09-15-2010, 06:47 AM   #50
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As much as I would love to do some IC bantering, I will not...much too tired as I just got in from work...yay....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lommy
And I don't like the fact that we have 48 hours each Day. It tends to make people (myself included of course) lazy instead of enthusiastic to use the extra time for finding wolves.
I agree with this, yet at the same time, it gives people more of a chance to vote thus eliminating the "I didn't have time to vote" excuse. If this ever happens, then we at least have something to look at.

As for all of the phantom as rep business, I'm not sure what to make of it yet. All I know is my gut is telling me not to vote for him.

I don't know what to make of most things right now because I'm utterly exhausted and probably need some sleep...or at least coffee. I'll be around.
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Old 09-15-2010, 07:00 AM   #51
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I got around to read Legate and Lommy's posts and I hate to admit it, but they where not complete trash.

Legate's post is interesting/funny because he doesn't want to discuss The Phantom, but is forced to due to previous events. Besides from that his reasoning is very sound and hard (for me) not to agree with.

Lommy I really like. She is annoyed, bitter and straightforward, very unusual for her and I like it. It is like we have a new and improved Lommy.
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Old 09-15-2010, 07:00 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glirdan View Post
I agree with this, yet at the same time, it gives people more of a chance to vote thus eliminating the "I didn't have time to vote" excuse. If this ever happens, then we at least have something to look at.
Good point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glirdy
As for all of the phantom as rep business, I'm not sure what to make of it yet. All I know is my gut is telling me not to vote for him.
Well, anyone should think twice before voting him for representative now. I mean, with two votes he already is a representative, and it would be very rash to give him more power by making him a powerful representative when the Day is still in the beginning and no one else has received any rep votes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zil
Wolves? They're our friends!
I think I will get fed up with these jokes in not so distant future...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sally
Really, Lommie, is that attitude necessary? I mean....really?
Is that attitude necessary? What do we gain by voting carelessly and meanwhile boosting tp's ego? (Sorry tp that I keep bringing you to these arguments like this but these guys are trying to buddy up to you by stroking your ego.) And sorry Sally (and Lottie) if I have offended you, that was not my intention and I still heart you - but you do act very sillily in my opininon.

But if Sally is genuinely offended, then I'd say she's more innocent than guilty.


edit: xed with Rune
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Old 09-15-2010, 07:02 AM   #53
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So I'm improved when I start bitching? Wonderful.
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Old 09-15-2010, 07:04 AM   #54
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Quote:
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So I'm improved when I start bitching? Wonderful.
In my opinion, yes!

Of course a change of attitude could also indicate sinister motives, but so far I have no reason to believe that this is the case.
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Old 09-15-2010, 07:12 AM   #55
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Well, anyone should think twice before voting him for representative now. I mean, with two votes he already is a representative, and it would be very rash to give him more power by making him a powerful representative when the Day is still in the beginning and no one else has received any rep votes.
I don't think he needs any more votes.

Quote:
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I think I will get fed up with these jokes in not so distant future...
That's the last one from me.
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Old 09-15-2010, 07:26 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lommy
Well, anyone should think twice before voting him for representative now. I mean, with two votes he already is a representative, and it would be very rash to give him more power by making him a powerful representative when the Day is still in the beginning and no one else has received any rep votes.
I actually had forgotten that it only took two votes to be a representative.
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Old 09-15-2010, 07:54 AM   #57
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How come everyone is so predictable these days?

But as Lommoblin said, there seems to be a real danger of partisan-politics here. Polarisation is the poison of democracy.

It seems we already have two "parties" here - and a few bystanders who carefully consider their words not to commit themselves. This Sally - Lottie - tp triangle looks just a bit too obvious to be true. But the moral highground of Shasta - Nerwen - Lommy trio is kind of too neat as well. And the carefulness of Legate -Zil - Glirdy looks soo suspicious...

Gah. Sorry about throwing you guys into these "easy categories": they are my first impressions. I hope I can elaborate on them later and maybe put up some better ideas.

But really Phantoblin, you will not vote for those who vote you for representative? First of all you contradict yourself as you insist on being bad at heart - wouldn't lynching those who trust you be the "baddie move" then? (actually you should have to break that promise as a representative for me to trust you...) Secondly: if you are on the orc side isn't your task to get rid of the elves whoever they are - even if they try to do you lip-service by voting you as a representative?

Anyway, if we are baddies everyone (besides the SoE) should we try to harm our own case just to be evil? I don't see that discussion to be interesting, helpful or useful. We have a task at hand, getting rid of the elves, whether we call getting rid of them good or bad.


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A practical note (as people don't normally read the admin. thread): My home internet connection died yesterday, so for now I'm dependent on any wireless internet connections for my laptop (basically my neighbourhood pub) and my school's computers during daytime. That will limit the times I can be online greatly. On the positive note I get to sleep my nights as there is no internet for me after the pub closes...
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Old 09-15-2010, 08:05 AM   #58
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I am afraid, but I need to make an early vote.

I unfortunately I have basically nothing to base my decision on. . . I am sure that it will surprise absolutely nobody that I will give Lommy my vote. (whether she likes it or not)

btw I would happily be a representative my self. . . Power is nice.


++ Lommy for representative
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Old 09-15-2010, 08:12 AM   #59
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You people talk too much. I was going to listen to everybody, and then people started talking in long paragraphs at a time.

I don't trust Phantoblin. I think he's a sneaky liar. I know that some stuff he said was certainly in jest, but if he really wants EVERYBODY to vote for him, how is he going to keep his promise of not voting to kill any of his supporters? And what if only one or two people don't vote for him? Are they automatically guilty? Stuff and nonsense.

I'm most inclined to vote for Nerwen as my representative...but I am going to wait until time has passed and more things have panned out.

I am an orc of few words, and my few words have been spent.
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Old 09-15-2010, 08:37 AM   #60
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I am actually surprised with the really strong reaction of Lommy's to the phantom-business, while I agree, it's a bit scary the way she reacts so strongly. But at least it seems to have an intimidating effect and people realised (if they didn't do so by themselves) what power do the votes hold - basically what I said.

I must thank to Rune for finding enough energy to read my post and at the same time find it "not complete trash" Although I should remark that the "buttering up" of mine and especially Lommie's posting made me worried a little bit (I am thinking of the general wolf strategy of "buddying up" with somebody, which especially in the representative-game can also have other effects, like getting people to vote for you as the representative. I think actually that is an issue we should keep an eye out for in this game as well, for that matter, the thing about sally and Lottie possibly also "buddying" phantom in this way holds too). That said, I do not consider it any obvious sign of guilt or anything like that, but at least it looked a little attention-rising to me now (with the sort of enthusiasm Rune had, unusual, seemed to me).

I could also remark that I find it funny, though, how since several of the posts which pointed out the danger of having all votes for phantom, and especially after Lommy's rather strongly frustrated post, the "public thinking" sort of shifted towards the same paradigm of echoing it - like Inzil or Glirdan (and even Rune, with what I mentioned above). Since it became a "fashion", I expect that now it is easier for the SoE to join this "fashion", and not support phantom any more. Which means, I am also watching those I mentioned above - mainly the first two, with Zil being a bit casual, which might have been just joining the flow, and Glirdy being a bit laid-back, which might have been so as not to be in the centre of attention but still agree with the majority.

Anyway, still there is a horde of people to see, so... looking forward to more.

EDIT: x-posted with Nogrod and onwards...
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Old 09-15-2010, 08:48 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Nogrod View Post
A practical note (as people don't normally read the admin. thread): My home internet connection died yesterday, so for now I'm dependent on any wireless internet connections for my laptop (basically my neighbourhood pub) and my school's computers during daytime.
Oh crap, some business for Hadanka pub, is it, then

I just have to say for Rune's vote, as far as it was indeed predictable (and especially if he has little time), it goes with the buttering-up stuff too. But again, probably any Rune would do that if he really is so happy about Lommy now - whether good or evil.

While Folwren also goes with the general anti-phantom opinion, she seems quite good to me on first sight - speaks reasonable and seems to speak out of her own mind (because she says something for example I said, but I assume she has not read that, given what she said about people who post long paraghraphs ).

There was something funny about Nog's post, I think he sort of started somewhere and then lost the thread, because the thoughts do not seem to come to any conclusion there. But hope that he is still going to have some net connection for more posting...
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Old 09-15-2010, 09:51 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogrod
But really Phantoblin, you will not vote for those who vote you for representative? First of all you contradict yourself as you insist on being bad at heart - wouldn't lynching those who trust you be the "baddie move" then? (actually you should have to break that promise as a representative for me to trust you...) Secondly: if you are on the orc side isn't your task to get rid of the elves whoever they are - even if they try to do you lip-service by voting you as a representative?
I'd like to focus more on your first point. We all know tp to be a devilishly sly bugger when it comes to this game. What really has me worried is that there are two possibilities with his will-not-vote-for-people-who-vote-me-as-rep situation. First, he's really an orc who is just being plain old, arrogant phantom and wants the power and glory (which is probably the case whether he's orc or SoE ) of having been made almighty representative and is trying to find a way to subtly oust the SoE's.

Second, he's really an SoE and doing the whole double-, triple-, quadruple- bluffing.

Either way, it's his way of initiating chaos as that's what phantom does best. And yet for some reason, we all go along with it like the good little sheep he expects us to be. I personally feel like leaving him alone for a little while. That doesn't mean I'll drop him completely off my radar (that would just be plain idiotic), but I do not think we should dwell on the infinite possible plans that are brewing inside his head.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rune
btw I would happily be a representative my self. . . Power is nice.
I was just quickly skimming things when this jumped out at me. Something about it makes me uneasy about Rune.

I would also like to mention that all three of the votes that have been cast make me very uneasy. I would understand them a little more and probably be less leery of them were it not for the fact that the Day's last for 48 hours. Why are you all casting your votes now? Will you have no internet access from now until tomorrow at 9pm EST?
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Old 09-15-2010, 10:15 AM   #63
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I'm here for the sake of clarification only. I'm at work, and shouldn't be posting at all, but I wanted to clear this up for my pie.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glirdan View Post
I would also like to mention that all three of the votes that have been cast make me very uneasy. I would understand them a little more and probably be less leery of them were it not for the fact that the Day's last for 48 hours. Why are you all casting your votes now? Will you have no internet access from now until tomorrow at 9pm EST?
No, dear, because the time to vote for representatives is only 24 hours. The first "half" of the Day is voting for reps, and the second "half" of the Day is the reps voting for who we shall lynch. Thus, we only have until tonight.


Also, glad to see that we stirred up discussion. I do so hate boring Day Ones.


I have to log off now, sorry. I'll be able to read if I'm careful but I really don't like being on the site at the office. I'll be back in....six or seven hours, I'd say, though perhaps not. Either way, behave while I'm gone, and keep being pedantic.
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Old 09-15-2010, 10:18 AM   #64
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I would also like to mention that all three of the votes that have been cast make me very uneasy. I would understand them a little more and probably be less leery of them were it not for the fact that the Day's last for 48 hours. Why are you all casting your votes now? Will you have no internet access from now until tomorrow at 9pm EST?
We have to vote for our representatives today before 9 P.M. EST. Between that time and tomorrow 9 P.M. we discuss and tell the reps who to vote to lynch.

Legate, you're right - I didn't read your post. Sorry. I'll do that sometime today if I have time. I'm trying to juggle this game, my work, and my homework all at once. My work is fine, but this game and the homework is suffering miseably.

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X-posted with Sally.
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Old 09-15-2010, 10:26 AM   #65
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To the lasses sally and Lottie. You two have basically surrendered whatever dignity you had left when you jumped at the vote phantom campaign. I need a representative with a backbone and you two clearly have none. On the plus side, to be led so easily like sheep by Big Boss suggests you don't want representative power, which leads to looking innocence. And it looks unintentional. You know the ones who are so modest with "No, no, no, I don't want that power" are the ones you have to be really careful about. They are so concerned with hiding their desire for power, they overcompensate with fake modesty. In sparknotes, yours and sally's unintentional "I don't have a spine, let me vote for someone who does" looks pretty innocent.

But really, phantom? If you wanted someone with some strength you could have gone with someone better. Phantom has a powerful facade behind his catchy slogans and elaborate 10,000 orc coins flashy signs, but in the end has no substance. All you have to do is stick him in with the Emperor's cat or a pretty butterfly and you will see his strength fail.

You know it is not absolute power which corrupts absolutely, it is not having absolute power and the desire for it which corrupts absolutely. And by continuing to deny phantom absolute power, we are only in the end making him more and more corrupt, to where he does more harm then good. But we won't recognize until he does have absolute power and we are powerless to stop him. These then are the options I see.

We can give him absolute power now, before he is corrupted by the desire for it, and in doing so we satisfy his ego and amusement. The pros to this is he actually does some good with his power. The negs, his ego can never be satisfied, only temporarily appeased, and when it's all said and done. Absolute power does corrupt absolutely.

We can have a foil representative who will balance his power and thus leaving the real decision to the other representatives. I would have no issues being phantom's foil, to have an equally strong personality that balances phantom's alpha personality. (Although, right now I think phantom would fear Lommy's wrath more than mine, so if I decide on this option, I think I'm a gonna vote Lommy for rep). The pros, whatever power phantom gets is always nullified and the fears of those who don't trust him are dealt with. The negs, this puts the decision and the biggest power in the hands of the other representatives, and honestly...that might actually be worse than giving phantom absolute power!

We can go with the other impossible that Lommy proposes and kill him. Pros, this looks like the most appealing and attractive offer at the moment. Negs, It would mean giving lots of power to Lommy, who's wrath if put in charge would scare me even more than phantom. Also, I wonder if she's got the confidence to follow through?

To Rune: make him work for it! You know how the system works now, these politicians don't need to do much work anymore to get elected, with the amount of precious metals and gems people hand them!

Edit: crossed with Glirdan, sally and Foley
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Old 09-15-2010, 10:42 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sallycakes
No, dear, because the time to vote for representatives is only 24 hours. The first "half" of the Day is voting for reps, and the second "half" of the Day is the reps voting for who we shall lynch. Thus, we only have until tonight.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foley
We have to vote for our representatives today before 9 P.M. EST. Between that time and tomorrow 9 P.M. we discuss and tell the reps who to vote to lynch.
Oh geez...I think that means it's time for me to hit the sack for a couple of hours before I go completely mental. Thanks ladies.

EDIT:

Just saw this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Borc
All you have to do is stick him in with the Emperor's cat or a pretty butterfly and you will see his strength fail.
BAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Made my day!! Thank you!!
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Old 09-15-2010, 10:43 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sally
Well, if he's good, I'll trust his judgement (for toDay, anyway). If he's evil, I trust him to not be stupid enough to do something like lynch the seer on Day One. It's a win-win from my perspective, as he either is good and tries to do something helpful or he's evil and isn't dumb enough to do something horribly destructive....yet.
This does not make sense. Why would a baddie opt out of the opportunity to rid themselves of the seer?

I don't see why you are so quick to trust and defend Phantom, Loslote.

It seems to me that the impression of Phantom is that he wouldn't lie or manipulate as evil. Which makes no sense.

I don't mind seeing a lynch of Sally or Loslote toDay.

I'll make my Rep vote in a handful of hours, after work.

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Old 09-15-2010, 10:55 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Folwren View Post
Legate, you're right - I didn't read your post. Sorry. I'll do that sometime today if I have time. I'm trying to juggle this game, my work, and my homework all at once. My work is fine, but this game and the homework is suffering miseably.
No problem, I am not offended, if you didn't have the focus for reading long posts, it is understandable. It does not matter when you read it, the only point is that it should be in your own best intention (if the village's good is in your best intention) to get as much information as possible so that you can make your decision the best you can... But I know a lot about busy days, so if you cannot read a lot, it's understandable. Although that said, I think this day's posting was actually quite short, this far - only two pages (not even full yet) - I have known a lot worse Day 1s.

Boro makes a good point (if I understood it correctly) about sally and Lottie, I am not sure what to make of his rather depressive scenarios concerning phantom.

And this I don't like at all, and I don't get it - at least I don't get it how can anyone post the first thought seriously:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boromir88 View Post
We can give him absolute power now, before he is corrupted by the desire for it, and in doing so we satisfy his ego and amusement. The pros to this is he actually does some good with his power. The negs, his ego can never be satisfied, only temporarily appeased, and when it's all said and done. Absolute power does corrupt absolutely.

We can have a foil representative who will balance his power and thus leaving the real decision to the other representatives. I would have no issues being phantom's foil, to have an equally strong personality that balances phantom's alpha personality. (Although, right now I think phantom would fear Lommy's wrath more than mine, so if I decide on this option, I think I'm a gonna vote Lommy for rep). The pros, whatever power phantom gets is always nullified and the fears of those who don't trust him are dealt with. The negs, this puts the decision and the biggest power in the hands of the other representatives, and honestly...that might actually be worse than giving phantom absolute power!
The other thing I do not like is "the other representative could be ME, thank you". My initial thought was of a very bold Boroelf, even worse, Morgoth save us, he and phantom as two pals. But anyway, all of this does not make any sense, or I must have completely misunderstood it. I don't understand why you are counting with the fact that phantom is one representative who gets, apparently, according to your counting, half of the votes or something like that (or: at least more than just two he has now, apparently). What is it supposed to be? You say like all the dictators who come with the slogan of "balancing the power of the greater evil". I honestly totally dislike the way you put it, and like I said, it does not make any sense. My image was that we will all vote, we'll get let's say five representatives, some with one, some with two votes or something like that, and those will decide. You act as if we were counting with two representatives, which does not make any sense - if there were only two, then effectively the one of them who has more votes decides whom to lynch and it's done. Or, like I said, maybe I misunderstood you completely. Because this way it does not make any sense. At least I don't see half of the people voting phantom - not after what we saw now, with many people being against it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boro
We can go with the other impossible that Lommy proposes and kill him. Pros, this looks like the most appealing and attractive offer at the moment. Negs, It would mean giving lots of power to Lommy, who's wrath if put in charge would scare me even more than phantom. Also, I wonder if she's got the confidence to follow through?
About lynching phantom, I thought it was not meant seriously - I see no reason for lynching him. If you call it "most appealing and attractive offer", speak for yourself. If we don't want somebody for a representative, it does not mean we have to lynch him: things are not just black and white like that. Personally, I have this far no reason to do anything against tp, because all he has shown this far was hunger for power, which is absolutely normal for him whatever he is. Once he starts to become suspicious in some way, then I may start thinking of lynching him.

That said, I don't have a personal favourite for a representative yet, but I think I am starting to get at least some ideas of whom I am not going to make one... but lots of time to decide still.

EDIT: x-ed with Glirdy and Izzy
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Old 09-15-2010, 11:17 AM   #69
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Some thoughts, in random order

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shasta
Not. Happening. I don't particularly think Fea and Nienna want their game hijacked.

As of right now, I'll probably give my vote to anyone (besides Phantom) who promises to try and get either Sally or Lottie lynched, because they're both pretty clearly trying to hide behind 'oh it's Day 1 I can do whatever I like and it won't matter'.
I wouldn't put it that strongly, but it would be indeed easy for a SoE to make that exact move - vote phantom early on based on his phantomness. Easy excuse. I also found Lommy's idea interesting:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lommy
I don't honestly understand why anyone - innocent or guilty - would throw away their rep vote so carelessly for somebody whose alignment they have no idea of (probably). The fact that there were two of them makes me quite worried. It doesn't help at all that Sally is claiming to amuse the mod and Lottie said she's voting early because she won't be around later but she still made several posts after her vote. It's just utter stupidity. The only scenario that makes sense is that one of them is a wolf with phantom and uses his phantomness and excuse to make an easy rep vote for a fellow and the other girl is just using the opportunity to mess around for fun.
This far I'd be more inclined to find some fur in Sally. Just the way she seems to openly attach herself to phantom as an ally. Especially in the following:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sally
Phantom, darling, do right by me, okay?
And considering the following, a Sallywolf would be pretty safe with that strategy:
Quote:
Originally Posted by phantom
Oh, and I also thought I'd mention that anyone that votes me for rep is completely safe for that day. No lie.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lommy
I think at least that it's ridiculous to make this into a disgusting politics game where you make parties like "you give me your vote, I won't lynch-vote you" - it's not silly but also dangerous: it becomes a war of clans where one's party matters more than their true alignment, which we definitely don't want in a werewolf game.
Lommy has a point here, I think. Still, it's more or less what's bound to happen, whether said aloud or not: a representative probably won't vote for the ones who elected him/her to power anyway, out of courtesy or just unconsciously, at least not unless there is really heavy evidence against one of the voters. Still, what a representative more or less instinctively ends up doing is entirely different from promising beforehand that "anyone who votes for me is safe".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lottie
No matter when I voted, there wouldn't have been any difference in how much there was to analyze.
Perhaps not - but from your own perspective one could think that you would find a good decision easier to make after a bit more time for considering it..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inzil
And actually, we aren't bound to voting anyone for rep, I don't think, even though it's a power we should exercise. If one doesn't have time to wait and examine everyone before voting though, I think not voting is the better option, as long as one has a very good excuse for not doing so.
This, actually, is a very good point. I hadn't realised that myself. Voting the wrong person for rep is loads more dangerous than refraining from voting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lottie, underlining mine
Either he's working for the Orcish Folk or he's not, same as everyone else. He happens to be louder and less likely to be manipulated by the SoE. See, my thinking is it's about 25% chance he's evil normally, but for most people, I'd have to add between 5 to 10% chance of accidentally working for the SoE. TP does his own thing, not very influenced by manipulations - other than his promise not to vote for those he is representing, which doesn't bother me - as I am not a SoE, which lessens the chance of him voting for a true Orc. Since I don't have a chance to really look at people toDay, this is the least risky move I could make, in my mind.
Now, I think you go too far here. What you've got to remember is that the fact that he's trying really hard to establish some kind of cult around himself doesn't mean he merits it more than anyone else does. Oh, he's sharp and all that, but there are other sharp and independed-minded people around here too and I don't like how little credit they get just because they don't make such a show of themselves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Legate
But now let me sum up what I think of phantom's proposal, personally. From the above already you can see, phantom, that I am not so keen on supporting you straightaway. While the idea might be good if you are good, sorry, I mean evil; I am not too keen on voting you, mostly just for the sake of that I think there will be more people - possibly like sally and Loslote - who either for lack of time, lack of Day 1 imagination or even for SoE-ish hiding in bandwaggon reasons (as already Nerwen well noted, and I think it is a good possibility) - will give their vote to you, and given how the system works in this game (if I understood it correctly), that will give tp-representative's vote tremendous power, even if there are a few other Representatives, each with his pitiful one vote or something like that (and I know, it is obvious that you will enjoy using the quote "Poweeeer! Un-limited poweeeer!" once you get there). Again, I think it is safer for the SoE if the votes do not split too much here - if it becomes all deed only of one Phantom, then even if he were innocent (read: innocent of murdering Orcs, not of all other things), we get no real clues from the lynch aside from "the phantom did it right/wrong". So because of this, I think I will rather go for somebody else, to offer a decent competition.
A bit related to this: the rep voting is one of our few ways of looking for concrete patterns in people's behaviour, and if everyone votes for the same person - or even one of two or three - finding these patterns becomes infinitely more difficult.


EDIT: x-ed since Sally's last
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Old 09-15-2010, 11:26 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc View Post
And this I don't like at all, and I don't get it - at least I don't get it how can anyone post the first thought seriously:
None of it was meant seriously in the sense that we must do one of these three things and it all involves tp. No one has to do anything about him, they can carry on business and ignore him entirely. The thing is, he makes it rather impossible to ignore, this is a fact I've come to accept over the years. So a sparknotes page of my post looks something like this...

Do I*

1. Help phantom get absolute power
2. Nullify his power by being an equal force that acts opposite of his desires
3. Remove his existance from this world

*Yes I used "we" that is because I always presume to be speaking for the conglomerate, but everyone should know they can do whatever they darn well please.

The 1-3 is more to be taken lightly to how when phantom's dishonoured everyone by his very presense, no matter what we do, he's going to be the attention. And I remain futilely optimistic about one day this not being the case.

What can be taken from it though, is I will unleash war upon phantom (or vote for people who will do it with me) if he tries something entirely unreasonable. Which counter to Lottie's own high-esteemed opinion of him, he is very capable of doing.

Edit: crossed with Greenie
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Old 09-15-2010, 11:31 AM   #71
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Oh and before I go for lunch and duties...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glirdan View Post
BAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Made my day!! Thank you!!
*bows* Glad I could make someone's day...I'm a dead orc walking for that!
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Old 09-15-2010, 11:43 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legate
But I would like to ask, how am I supposed to play since TP already used half of the good quotes before I even had the chance.
Ha ha, yes, the first quote I thought of without prompting and decided to use it, but once I started typing I recalled that you had been heavy with SW quotes last time and so I resolved to use a couple more just because of that. I wondered if you'd be amused or if you'd be angry that I'd stolen your show.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Legate
While having a topic to start with is better than bumping in the dark (sic), and I am sure it makes TP happy to have all the Day for himself, not sure if the way things have been focused on is the best to do it. But at the same time, it is at least a good topic for the start - and with such a topic, the way of people's behavior might nicely begin to show in people's reactions
Exactly! You know all of the old complaints about Day 1, and generally I always try and do something or other on the first day to prod discussion. I'd say it's working to some extent, in the sense that there are posts that say something other than, "Um, I'm here". I even got the vote train rolling, which is of course about the most important thing we'll be looking at in this contest.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Legate
Okay, this is the one thing I really dislike - that's basically blackmail. It effectively means that "if you don't vote me, look, look, everyone else will do it, and then I will lynch you, because you will be the last remaining one".
You've hit the nail on the head. That was exactly what I was trying to do. But unfortunately bunches of people rushed in to negate it, and so the ploy has most definitely lost its effectiveness. Basically, I was wondering if any Sons of Elrond could be bullied out of fear into voting for me. Playing the odds, you know? "Phantom may gain a hail of votes, and he says he won't vote for his people, so if my buddies and I don't vote for him the liklihood of us being lynched is going to increase dramatically!"

(more responses to follow)
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Old 09-15-2010, 11:51 AM   #73
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The following thought occured to me:

This whole representatives thing can be very revealing about who people are because from my point of view, there are only a few types of people who would try to get elected.

1. An elf or elf-friend, so that they could turn suspicion away from itself and its companions.

2. A loud humbug orc who only wants attention...and who thinks he might actually be able to do some good for our underground village.

3. The seer, so that he actually CAN do some good with his knowledge.

I think this because, being an ordinary person, it occurred to me that trying to get voted into a representatives place would put undue suspicion and attention on my humble person, therefore I'd jolly well better not try. If I were an elf, I might be more likely to attempt it. They have everything to lose, and everything to win, if you think about it, and who's going to suspect a bold stroke in broad wake-time?

The only thing that I think would induce me or another innocent into attempting to become a representative would be to gain power and attention and to actually think we could help the village by our intuition.

The seer on the other hand would be perfect to be in a representative's place. However, the blessed seer has the problem that if he is too open, the Elves will catch onto him and kill him during the sleep-time. Therefore, he cannot be open in his hints...in fact, he might not even be able to openly run for representative. But he still might try to get there.

So........that being said, I now see that it's rather weak. But at least it was a thought. I think it's worth considering when we look at the people vying for representative position.

Cross posted with M. Phantom.
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Old 09-15-2010, 11:54 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boro
*bows* Glad I could make someone's day...I'm a dead orc walking for that!
So true

EDIT: X-ed with Foley
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Old 09-15-2010, 11:55 AM   #75
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Lommy- your reaction is completely silly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lommy
I really can't think of anything more stupid than carelessly giving your rep vote away in the beginning of the Day to vote some guy with terribly inflated ego just because he loves the attention.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lommy
I don't honestly understand why anyone - innocent or guilty - would throw away their rep vote so carelessly for somebody whose alignment they have no idea of (probably).
Raise your hand if you know precisely who is a true orc and thus deserving of your vote.

Of course they don't know my alignment! Who knows anyone's alignment?! I mean, really, what a meaningless comment to make. Voting for me is no different than voting for anyone else, other than the fact that I am more likely than most to show up and vote and be vocal and vote according to a plan.

You do recall the last time we had one of these rep games, don't you? Given my track record, I'm the most sane voting choice there is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inzil
Right. Isn't it better to hold off and see what everyone has to say before making such an important decision? And actually, we aren't bound to voting anyone for rep, I don't think, even though it's a power we should exercise. If one doesn't have time to wait and examine everyone before voting though, I think not voting is the better option, as long as one has a very good excuse for not doing so.
You agreed way too quickly to something that is not nearly so clear cut as you put forth, and your suggestion of not voting, well... I really don't like it. If all the SoE are voting for each other, encouraging others to sit on their votes would be a great way to gain larger sway over the lynch.
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Old 09-15-2010, 11:55 AM   #76
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Boro - Hmm. An enigma, for the time being.
Foley - Can't form an opinion yet.
Glirdy - No read this far.
Izzy - Can't form an opinion yet.
Legate - Seems reasonable this far.
Lommy - Feels genuine, if only for her outburst about the phantom-voters. Not sure if I want to vote her for rep though.
Lottie - Not comfortable with her. I would hazard to guess either she or Sally is a SoE, but at the moment I'm moer inclined to believe it's Sally.
Nerwen - I feel OK about her at the moment, might vote her for rep actually.
Nog - Can't form an opinion yet.
Phantom - Hasn't really said much, has he? Or rather, when trying to think about the exact things he's said I couldn't come up with much anything (apart from arguing about good and evil and trying to get people to vote him for rep).
Rune - Of the little I've seen of him I'm more inclined to find him innocent. Could be wrong, though.
Sally - The one I'm feeling worst about. I think I stated reasons in my previous post.
Shasta - Feels genuine in his phantom-frustration - and then again, a Shastaelf would probably be frustrated by phantom too (be it phantomelf or phantomorc). Eurgh, I just started considering the possibility of the two of them being elves together. Not something I'd like to see.
Zil- I never can read him, but so far I'm at least not alarmed.

Not seen yet:
Celuien
Kath
Mira
Steve
Vanilwa


EDIT: Wow, x-ed with Boro, phantom, Folwren, Glirdan and phantom

Last edited by A Little Green; 09-15-2010 at 12:02 PM.
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Old 09-15-2010, 11:59 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boromir88 View Post
None of it was meant seriously in the sense that we must do one of these three things and it all involves tp. No one has to do anything about him, they can carry on business and ignore him entirely. The thing is, he makes it rather impossible to ignore, this is a fact I've come to accept over the years. So a sparknotes page of my post looks something like this...

Do I*

1. Help phantom get absolute power
2. Nullify his power by being an equal force that acts opposite of his desires
3. Remove his existance from this world

*Yes I used "we" that is because I always presume to be speaking for the conglomerate, but everyone should know they can do whatever they darn well please.

The 1-3 is more to be taken lightly to how when phantom's dishonoured everyone by his very presense, no matter what we do, he's going to be the attention. And I remain futilely optimistic about one day this not being the case.
Okay, Boro, I understand you now, but still I think you are creating some unnecessary polarisation here. I don't see why phantom - at least in the case he is innocent - could not behave during the game like any normal person, or, well, like phantom, but not with some "eternal hunger for power". I played several games with him where he actually acted reasonably, as much it can be said. But in any case, even if he acted like you say, at most he will be one fool among many other representatives (unless all other people go completely mad or start acting like you) - that is the advantage of democracy. Unless you manage to brainwash people that it is "A or B, nothing else" (in this sense, perhaps "phantom or us"), there will be lots of decent representatives among which one foolish phantom will get lost. And if he acts really totally badly, then he eventually won't get any votes at all. That's one of the advantages of democracy as well. If he becomes a problem, then I will start solving it, but this far, like I said, I don't see him neither suspicious nor dangerous: at least not until he starts getting more votes, then perhaps he will be. But you are making him the centre of attention yourself, where he has gotten two votes - okay, enough, but still not that much.

EDIT: x-ed with the very phantom, Folwren and others...
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Old 09-15-2010, 12:05 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rune
I am not evil! I am just a very serious case of negative social inheritance!
If you're not evil, I can only assume you're a SoE. Is that what you're saying?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rune
Lommy I really like. She is annoyed, bitter and straightforward, very unusual for her and I like it. It is like we have a new and improved Lommy.
What are you talking about? Lommy is like that all the time. Or at least she is any time I'm around. (There may be a connection there.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nog
But really Phantoblin, you will not vote for those who vote you for representative? First of all you contradict yourself as you insist on being bad at heart - wouldn't lynching those who trust you be the "baddie move" then? (actually you should have to break that promise as a representative for me to trust you...) Secondly: if you are on the orc side isn't your task to get rid of the elves whoever they are - even if they try to do you lip-service by voting you as a representative?
Oh, I'm quite aware of the game I'm playing. And if they decide to play it, the better for me, as I like my chances of spotting them better when they're forced to play my game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Folwren
I don't trust Phantoblin. I think he's a sneaky liar. I know that some stuff he said was certainly in jest, but if he really wants EVERYBODY to vote for him, how is he going to keep his promise of not voting to kill any of his supporters? And what if only one or two people don't vote for him? Are they automatically guilty? Stuff and nonsense.
The only way to find out what I'd do in that situation is to make it happen, m'dear. Aren't you curious? Oh, and I think it goes without saying that I knew good and well not everyone would vote for me. I can always count on Lommy for things like that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Legate
I could also remark that I find it funny, though, how since several of the posts which pointed out the danger of having all votes for phantom, and especially after Lommy's rather strongly frustrated post, the "public thinking" sort of shifted towards the same paradigm of echoing it - like Inzil or Glirdan (and even Rune, with what I mentioned above). Since it became a "fashion", I expect that now it is easier for the SoE to join this "fashion", and not support phantom any more.
Yes, yes, this is exactly the sort of thing I try to create in stirring the pot! Behaviors to look for etc. My primary regret at this point was that there were fewer supporters around early on to give this thing more steam so as to make reactions more pronounced when the tide turned.
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Old 09-15-2010, 12:12 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phantom
I even got the vote train rolling, which is of course about the most important thing we'll be looking at in this contest.
Er.. No you didn't. The vote train went rolling before you even showed up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by phantom
Of course they don't know my alignment! Who knows anyone's alignment?! I mean, really, what a meaningless comment to make.
I'd be inclined to believe that Lommy knows that no one knows the others' alignment as yet. She was probably referring to Sally and Lottie rep-voting before anything had happened ie. when they had even no inkling as to what your role could be - and that, I think, is a rather valid point. If we go on voting based on people's general character instead of how innocent/guilty they seem in this particular game, it's an easy victory for the SoE. Just saying.


EDIT: x-ed with phantom
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Old 09-15-2010, 12:13 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the phantom View Post
Lommy- your reaction is completely silly.

Raise your hand if you know precisely who is a true orc and thus deserving of your vote.

Of course they don't know my alignment! Who knows anyone's alignment?! I mean, really, what a meaningless comment to make. Voting for me is no different than voting for anyone else, other than the fact that I am more likely than most to show up and vote and be vocal and vote according to a plan.
It's not a meaningless comment. She's right. At least Sally threw her vote to you directly without hearing anything from anybody else. In Day 1 there are definitely ways to get ideas or hunches about people, and she didn't even wait for that. You and Sally treat Day 1 as though it were a perfect waste, and Lommy treats it as though it were not, and you bash her for it. Sir, we may all be 'evil orcs' but I'm getting a feeling that you're more evil than the rest of us, because you're willing to trample on people and their ideas.

Quote:
[Inzil] agreed way too quickly to something that is not nearly so clear cut as you put forth, and your suggestion of not voting, well... I really don't like it. If all the SoE are voting for each other, encouraging others to sit on their votes would be a great way to gain larger sway over the lynch.
But it IS clear-cut, Phantom. People should wait and let their ignorance be enlightened if at all possible before voting.
And he IS right about not voting in ignorance. Absolutely he's right. To not vote is idiotic, but to vote blindly and out of ignorance is even worse.

--

Ex-posted with Greenie, Phantom, and Legate.
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