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01-14-2018, 10:03 PM
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#161 |
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Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 417
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I realized I had forgotten to mention, but I have finished a draft of the entirety of Volume 3 as outlined in my structure above, so I am ready to post whenever. I have not done so because we are already in the midst of so many chapters, I did not want to derail the discussion more than I already have in the past.
 Doing these edits has given me some new thoughts on various chapters Fin and I have reached a consensus on. I will address those as Aiwendil and others begin to discuss the respective chapters.
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02-14-2018, 05:27 PM
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#162 | |
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Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 417
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While working on figuring out a framework for the narrative of the Third Age, I found myself relying heavily on Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age, but the account therein is severely compressed. It leaves out the entire history of Arnor, the Kinstrife, the Dwarven history, the Rangers of Eriador, and much much more which are only to be found in the Appendices of LotR. Thus, to present the narrative of the Third Age as an uninterrupted story in the tradition of the First and Second Ages is impossible unless large portions of Appendix A are used. At first glance this seems antithetical to the project, but upon review of Appendix A I have found this in its preface:
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02-15-2018, 03:19 AM
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#163 |
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Wight
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 184
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That is what I did. You can see by the titles of my project. For me is the only way to have a coherent line of history. The appendices mixed with the material from UT.
Greetings |
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02-15-2018, 03:51 AM
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#164 |
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Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 417
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I have actually finished my first draft using the appendices, and there is really no question: if we wish to have a continuous narrative (or in fact any structure that will be coherent) we mist give the appendices. The information contained therein is given nowhere else.
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02-16-2018, 10:55 AM
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#165 | |
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Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 417
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Going with the assumption that the Appendices are to be used (as I think they must) this is the outline I have prepared for Volume II including my draft of the Third Age material.
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Last edited by ArcusCalion; 06-22-2018 at 11:09 AM. |
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02-17-2018, 03:12 PM
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#166 |
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King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,454
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That looks impresiv. I have only two remark:
To lift the last chapters 'The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen'; 'The Quest for Erebor'; 'The Battle of the Fords of Isen' and 'The Hunt for the Ring' to full talls beside 'Ainulindalë'; 'Valaquenta'; 'Quenta Silmarillion'; 'Athrabeht Finrod ah Andreth'; 'Narn Beren ion Barahir'; 'Narn e•mbar Hador'; 'The Black Years' and 'The Fading Years' seems a bit unproportional to me. It is okay for 'The New Shadow' because that is a stand alone any how. But the rest I would rather order them under 'The Fading Years'. The second remark is just an idea and you as having worked with the texts might simply reject it as rediculous: Wouldn't it be good to shift 'The Marshals of the Mark' too an earlier place and incooperate it in 'The House of Eorl' Respectfully Findegil |
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02-17-2018, 04:18 PM
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#167 |
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Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 417
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I thought about doing this, but The Marshals of the Mark refers heavily to specific events in the course of the War of the Ring that are not covered by the cursory account. I have begun to consider adding in The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen to the main narrative, in which case, The Hunt for the Ring, Marshals of the Mark, and possibly the entire Battle of the Fords might be able to be inserted. I have not attempted this, however, and at the moment I am of the opinion that it would not work. As to the point of the disproportionate level at which these sundry tales are placed in my current outline, Volume 3 also has a similar problem. I do see the difference there, however, since it is not a continuous narrative. If The Hunt for the Ring, The Quest for Erebor, The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen, and The Battle of the Fords of Isen cannot be fitted into the narrative, maybe they could be listed as Appendix A, B, and C? THis way they would have the same level as the chapters, but would be denoted as secondary elements outside of the single narrative.
Edit: I have now looked into it, and I do not believe that The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen should be inserted into the main narrative. It would need to be broken up, and would thus lose a great deal of coherence. Besides that, the other tales do not readily fit into the summary account of the War of the Ring given in the work, and still would need to stand alone. The Marshals of the Mark could be inserted under its subheading immediately at the end of the existing draft for The War of the Ring but this would feel out of place and would distract from the narrative needlessly, since it fits well in subject matter to The Battle of the Fords of Isen, which discusses much of Rohan's military structure and strategy. Last edited by ArcusCalion; 02-17-2018 at 04:36 PM. |
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02-18-2018, 02:55 AM
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#168 |
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Wight
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 184
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This is only a constructive criticism, of course. In my humble opinion tales like The Lost Road, Tar Elmar, or The New Shadow (this one also possibly never would be in the "original" Tfte), are very individual and very very unfinished to be in any place of these projects.
As for the structure, without any pretentious for my part, do you consider in some time my structure?. For me, that already read it is, even cronologically, very accurate, and very "Tolkienist".  Every chapter you quote is merged into the narrative.Greetings Last edited by gondowe; 02-18-2018 at 03:02 AM. |
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02-18-2018, 10:36 AM
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#169 |
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Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 417
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gondowe, to your point about Tal-Elmar and The New Shadow, the way in which they are given in the work is not intrusive into the story, and their unfinished quality may be explained by a simple preface that the conclusion of these stories was lost. As lindil has said, and as Findegil believes, the goal of this project is maximum inclusion: if the Professor wrote it, we will try to include it. I see no real reason to dismiss these two works simply because they are unfinished. In some ways, I think their unfinished nature is actually part of the allure of Middle-earth, where there are always more stories hiding beneath the pages, lost or unfinished. I see no compelling reason to exclude these works.
I have indeed reviewed your structure many times, and while it is incredible and much to be lauded, the goals of your project and the goals of this one are not the same. You have sought to present each work individually, edited for agreement, while this project seeks to follow Christopher Tolkien's method of combining the texts into a singular narrative. In addition, simply going by the chapter headings and subheadings you have given, it seems you are much freer with invention and insertion of unsourced material into the work, which is something we cannot do in this project. Therefore, while your structure is admirable, it is not necessarily in tune with what we are pursuing. In terms of the Third Age specifically, I see how you have organized it, which is much the same way in which it was organized in Appendix A: each kingdom treated distinctly, and with no linearly progressing narrative for the history. I have followed the model of the project in mine: creating a single, linear narrative in order to have one unbroken historical tale, from the creation to the reign of Eldarion son of Aragon. I was unable to insert some of the stories (the ones I have named above) into the direct narrative, but perhaps Findegil or Aiwendil will have a solution. |
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02-18-2018, 03:52 PM
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#170 |
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Wight
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 184
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"You have sought to present each work individually, edited for agreement, while this project seeks to follow Christopher Tolkien's method of combining the texts into a singular narrative. In addition, simply going by the chapter headings and subheadings you have given, it seems you are much freer with invention and insertion of unsourced material into the work, which is something we cannot do in this project."
Arcuscalion, apart for the subheadings I didn't invent anything, anything is unsourced; only prepositional, etc nexus between paragraphs, sentences, etc. But many subheadings in UT and HoME series are (in my opinion) inventions of CT only to give order to the texts. For that reason the subheadings never were a problem for me while the text were pure Tolkien. "In terms of the Third Age specifically, I see how you have organized it, which is much the same way in which it was organized in Appendix A: each kingdom treated distinctly, and with no linearly progressing narrative for the history." I also think that I am following the CT method, but the structure I think is more JRRT method (always with humility of course) as you said about my following Appendix A of TLotR. Anyway I always understood that this project is different from mine and in this way I always share my opinions about the composition of the texts, forgetting the structure because as I always said in this forum, at last the historic information is the same. I only wanted to say that you could take ideas from my structure, only that. Greetings |
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02-19-2018, 12:54 AM
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#171 |
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Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 417
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Ah my apologies, I was just going off of the headings. It is hard for me to divine your structure accurately, I think, since I do not have the text of your version, which I would not be able to read (since I am not fluent in Spanish). I do indeed consider your outline before making my own, but I think I'll stick with mine for now. Perhaps Fin could weigh in?
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02-19-2018, 09:40 AM
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#172 |
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Wight
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 184
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Yes, I told in other thread that it was a great pity for me that it is not possible for you to read it. Because I think it really works.
As for me it would be a huge job for which I do not have time, many times I think about using the google translator to share it, but ... well, it would be the worst insult to the professor. If I am on the road when this project reaches the Second and Third Ages Ill try to collaborate in the measure I could. Greetings |
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02-19-2018, 11:05 AM
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#173 |
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Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 417
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We'd love it! By the way, I meant to ask you if there were any sections of PE or VT that you know of to include that we haven't yet? I've added The Rivers and Beacon-Hills of Gondor to Volume III, and the rest we've already shown in the outlines and chapter drafts. I just ask because you've given us amazing excerpts (Lambion Ontale and the Buildings of the Eldar) and I was wondering what other hidden gems there might be.
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02-24-2018, 03:26 PM
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#174 |
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Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,140
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Sorry for my absence recently. Can someone remind me if we had decided on what chapter to review next? I should be able to take a look at Findegil's and ArcusCalion's drafts again soon.
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02-24-2018, 07:27 PM
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#175 |
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Seeker of the Straight Path
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal
Posts: 1,680
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An amzing thing findegil n co.
Re round world The trouble was 2 fold if I recall. 1 - Tolkien never finalized the chronology. 2- the vast bulk of the mythology is otherwise cohesive and it was part if it forever. I honestly no longer recall whether JRRT flipped back or not and my Tolkien library is not in Hawaii with me. But of course. .if the group energy is going that way.... But having been a FE project for so long...17 years...(deep bow) it would be a bit of shame to not see it set sail properly. Even if Rôg is on board. Lol. I would urge a finalization with flat middle earth for pre atalantë and then when complete ...(a literary smooth reading version was envisioned). My personal dilemma is that I think the optimum solution for a Translations from the Elvish style super Silm is along lines of annotated Hobbit. Core 99 silm ...huge folio book...with older lost tales variants below...later variants above. And old era of annals on the sides and final era later. If I get a windfall or grab a couple volumes of used HBs at a time I could cut n paste it to a folio. Let all the major variants share a huge spread of a dual page. I could see setting up a new team for that as a side forum ...and after some mock ups we send them to Annotted CJRT insider ...complete with tales of the BD exploits as the groundwork...and see if Anderson likes it enough to go pitch it to CJRT. But as for all the layout here...its amazing. An exploratory group ...looking into a somewhat integrated style or at least good transitions esp between hyper condensed or note fragments to full blown revised sort of lurches. And whether to go for a stylistic revision/reader version at all...of course.
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The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.
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02-25-2018, 08:23 AM
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#176 |
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King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,454
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Aiwendil and lindil it is so nice to read from you here!
Aiwendil, I think chapter 3 was the place we stopped last adn it seems finished. Since that is done, I would say take your free choice. ArcusCalion and I should be willing to discuss any chapter with you, to whitch your lust for discussion leads us. lindil, your tried already once to shift the project to your (new) idea of an annotated Sil77. I am still inclined first to finish this project before jumping into anything new. I can see the resaoning that shuch an annotated Sil77 would have probably a much greater chance to get a go for publication. But that does not mean that it will have a good chance! And anyhow when you started the old project, publication has not been a goal and for the project as it is, it can never be. And all active discusser do know that. So sorry but I am strongly against your new project binding forces that could be used for the old one. Respectfully Findegil Last edited by Findegil; 02-25-2018 at 08:34 AM. |
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02-26-2018, 02:33 PM
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#177 |
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Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 417
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Aiwendil, we had proposed two alternative paths of discussion: doing all the shorter, easier chapters first, or doing the harder, more difficult chapters first. If we go with the former, then the next would be Thingol and Melian, but if we go with the latter, it would be the Coming of the Elves.
Lindil, I am not sure I understand your suggestions, but I do agree with Findegil that this current project should be finished before any alternate project is undertaken. |
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03-02-2018, 07:58 PM
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#178 |
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Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,140
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Good to see you, Lindil!
All right, I think that after being away for a bit, it might be best for me to start back in with something easy, so I'll try to look at "Thingol and Melian" this weekend. |
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05-09-2018, 09:13 AM
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#179 |
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Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,140
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Just wanted to apologize for being absent for so long. Various things in real life have been consuming all my time. Alas, that state of affairs will probably continue for a few weeks at least, but I'm hopeful that sometime in June I can try to dive back in.
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05-09-2018, 12:13 PM
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#180 |
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Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 417
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No worries Aiwendil, life happens! You may have noticed that Fin and I are starting on the Second Age drafts in the time being, but when you return we will stop and review.
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05-09-2018, 01:00 PM
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#181 |
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King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,454
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Hi Aiwendil,
nice to hear that you are still interested. As sad as it is: real live is more important, so take your time. Respectfully Findegil |
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06-14-2018, 11:24 PM
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#182 | |
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Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 417
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I figured since Fin and gondowe and I have finished the first round of edits for the entire Second Age narrative, it might be time for a full timeline with progress updates:
Untouched means that this chapter has not been worked on by any member. First Draft means that this chapter has been worked on by one member, but is not ready for posting. Priv. Draft means that this chapter has been worked on by one member, and is ready for posting. Draft means that this chapter has been posted, but no work has yet begun on it. Work in progress means that this chapter has been posted, and work is underway, and may in fact be almost done. Semi-finished means that this chapter has been finished, but new changes or revisions have come to light and it needs further work. Finished means that this chapter has been finished, and all members are still satisfied with its state. Quote:
Last edited by ArcusCalion; 07-24-2018 at 03:22 PM. |
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07-04-2018, 03:51 PM
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#183 |
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Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 417
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Having looked at the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen again, I have found that it can be inserted into the last two chapters of my original outline. Looking again at the other three 'tales' (Battles of the Fords of Isen, Hunt for the Ring, and Quest for Erebor) I think perhaps that The Hunt for the Ring can also be included. However, this may result in strange tonal shifts where Frodo is named without any explanation and highly specific dates are given where before there were only years denoted. I am happy to leave it out, as I think it works well (along with the other three) as supplemental material to Lord of the Rings, and would not work as well if worked into the historical narrative. Even so, I thought we should discuss it, since we are coming to the end of the entire narrative of the History of Middle-earth.
Here are my thoughts on each 'tale': 1) The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen: This tale is told as a self-contained narrative, with a similar historical tone to Appendix A and the Silmarillion in general. Thus, it makes no unexplained references to events not inside the tale, and all characters are either introduced in the narrative, or have already been introduced in the Silmarillion as we've created it. Thus, to insert it into the main narrative is not difficult, and although it must be broken up into pieces to fit the chronology, it is not spread out very far and is easy to follow. Therefore I think it should be added into the main narrative. 2) The Quest for Erebor: This tale is told as a fist person narrative by Frodo about a conversation between Gimli, himself, Pippin, and Gandalf in Minas Tirith. Therefore, to insert it into the tale we would need to remove the authorial first person from the writing, as well as the very situation in which it is presented, which would cause it to lose a lot of its structure. It also references Pippin as a character without introducing him. Therefore I think it is ideal to leave this tale separate as an appendix. 3) The Hunt for the Ring: This tale is told as a historical narrative analyzing the movements of people over a span of a few months. It makes heavy use of specific dates (something almost unheard of in our narratives outside of the Atanatarion) as well as references characters like Frodo and the events of LotR without giving explanations. For instance, it assumes the reader knows the plot of LotR in that we know that Bilbo gave the ring to Frodo and that he was entrusted to carry it secretly to Rivendell, of which there is never made explicit mention, either in this narrative or in our own historical narrative. Therefore I think it would work ideally as an appendix, although it is possible to insert it, despite the odd references. 4) The Battles of the Fords of Isen: This tale is told assuming the reader already knows the events of LotR. It references specific movements of the characters, refers to 'the narrative' of LotR, and mentions many many characters without giving them any introduction. Thus, to include it into the main narrative would be very jarring and would have very little context, so I think it is better to keep it separate as an appendix. Last edited by ArcusCalion; 07-04-2018 at 04:05 PM. |
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07-05-2018, 09:16 AM
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#184 |
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King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,454
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I expected that in these parts we would come to discussions about the Appendices. I must say that I was from the start reluctant about using material as Appendices. I could agree to ArcusCalion’s reasoning that with our very short versions of tales from The Hobbit and LotR including all the stuff in the main narrative would creat some unproportonality. But let us go through the Appendices one by one as ArcusCalion started to do:
1) The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen: I have not yet read the second draft, but in principal I agree to include it into the main narrative. 2) The Quest for Erebor: As soon as ArcusCalion posted The Stewards which covers the tale from The Hobbit, I started experimenting with the text to include The Quest for Erebor. The main part of The Quest for Erebor is the conversation between Gandalf and the the dwarves, Thorin in particular, and some description of motives and movements by Gandalf. That we loss the setting and the conversation with the hobbits and Gimil is true, but what do these part add to the story? The main issue I see, and up to now I did not have a good solution, is the unproportionality we creat: We tell on some pages how Gandalf orgenised the beginning of the quest, but then we have one or two bleak paragraphs about the quest itself. I found one source that can help: LotR; Prolog; Of the Finding of the Ring. In the moment I am considering takeing up parts of the revisions to The Hobbit started by JRR Tolkien in 1960. They reach only to the approach of Rivendell, but that could be okay, since the tone of the story is much changed we could take it as an account based on Gandalf’s memories. Since Gandalf left soon after the finding of the Ring we could rather follow him to the With Council in Lórien and the attack on Dol-Guldur and then tell in short what eles happened to Thorin & Co. Anyhow we have created such breaks before, but in these cases we did not have better description. In all this four cases we know where to find it, but we restricted our self not to include it. 3) & 4) The Hunt for the Ring & The Battle of the Fords of Isen: The issue about knowledge of the plot and characters of LotR is clear, but I wonder if must not cure that issue any how. I don’t know which text ArcusCalion considered as sources for our text in the chapter The War of the Ring, but I can see two sources that could help to make the narrative a bit more substantial: I remember a Letter to Milton Waldmann in which Tolkien gave a ‘short’ description of his whole legendarium. I am not sure if the full text is available but we should search for it. And we have in the three volume editions of LotR in volume 2 and 3 a short description of what has happen so far. In addition we could search in HoMe for plot synopsis or use LotR; Appendix B especially The Great Years both of which we might expand within our rules to full narrative. A special case is The Marshals of the Mark. If we include The Battle of the Fords of Issen in the main narrative, I think we should shift this to volume 3. In the result we would creat something like JRR Tolkien envisioned for his Silmarillion and the Atanatarion: Where the great publications of JRR Tolkien (The Hobbit & LotR) cover the events, our retelling is short, but where these primary sources leave holes or are short our text is as braod as we can manage. At least I think it is worth trying to include these 4 sources into the main narrative. If we fail to do so or are unsatisfied with the result we can easily switch back to using them as Appendices. Respectfully Findegil |
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07-05-2018, 10:22 AM
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#185 |
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Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 417
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I must say, I am against using the revised edition of the Hobbit in our narrative. To do so would be unjustifiable, as even the revised edition does not change the fact that it is from Bilbo's perspective and not Gandalf's. I think also that to use summaries of the LotR text would not be in line with the project, but I suppose it is more viable than the inclusion of the Hobbit material. I think we should hold off adding any of teh remaining three tales (Quest for Erebor (QE), Battles of the Fords of Isen (BFI), and Hunt for the Ring (HR)) until we have posted and reviewed the text of the final chapter. This way we will see what we are working with and be able to make a more informed choice.
As to what sources I used for the final chapter, I did not use the ones you mentioned. I used a large patchwork of sources, and I think it covers the War of the Ring reasonably well, but of course only highlighting Gandalf, Aragorn, and mentioning Frodo. After we review the chapter, we can discuss adding in more details. |
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07-08-2018, 09:31 PM
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#186 |
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Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 417
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Having reviewed some of the texts mentioned by Fin, I would like to comment on them.
1) Of the Finding of the Ring: I think this is actually a good idea, but we would have to discuss how it would fit in with the account in Of the Rings of Power and in Durin's Folk, but I am sure we could make it work. If we do include this narrative summary, perhaps we could also include the Quest for Erebor into the main narrative, which would be ideal, although I feel (pretty strongly) that it is impossible to remove the narrative framework from it, which would make it impossible to insert into the story. Regardless, if we are to include Of the Finding of the Ring, then I think we must also include the other sections of the Prologue, aside from (perhaps) the last one, although that last section would fit nicely at the start of the whole project. I see no reason why we could not do this. perhaps adding them into the narrative when the Shire is first established. Whatever our decision on the above, I do not think we could use the revised Hobbit, as it is still written as the memoir of Bilbo, and to add it in would mean adding in the entire Hobbit (updated) which is beyond the scope of the project. I think we are able to use the text of the Prologue to LotR, simply because we are not given a source for it, whereas LotR and the rest are all explicitly sourced (and published). 2) The Letter to Milton Waldman: This ends with the end of the Second Age, and so cannot help us here. 3) The Synopses contained at the beginning of Two Towers and Return of the King: These worry me. They are not contained in all editions, and I am unsure if they are the words of Tolkien, or of his editor/publishers. I think to use these texts presents risks, as well as the issue of the events of Return of the King being almost entirely untold: a jarring change of pace from the description of the events of the first two books. To use Appendix B: the Great Years to construct a narrative would need to be almost entirely written wholecloth, and even then would produce only a choppy, awkward narrative. We may at best use it only for supplemental sentences to a narrative which must exist beyond it; we cannot use it as a primary narrative. Therefore, it seems to me as if the events of Lord of the Rings are not easy to tell. I am somewhat inclined to use the synopses at the beginning of TT and RotK, but I would need to have proof that they were indeed written by Tolkien himself. If we do any of these things, then we may be able to include HR and BFI, but we need to decide this first. Sidenote: I used the narrative at the end of Appendix B which details the events of the War in the North in Mirkwood and Dale in the last chapter. Last edited by ArcusCalion; 07-08-2018 at 09:44 PM. |
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07-09-2018, 01:44 PM
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#187 |
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Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 417
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Having reviewed the Synopsis in LotR, if we can prove it was written by Tolkien and not his editor, it is indeed perfect for our desires. With the synopsis, we can include at least the Hunt for the Ring, and possibly the Battles of the Fords of Isen. In addition, I have some ideas for restructuring that we can use now that we are to include the material from the prologue of LotR (at the very least).
I propose that we give the headline 'The Stewards' to the chapter made from the second part of Amroth and Nimrodel. The chapter that we are currently calling The Stewards will then also be split into two: Of the Finding of the Ring and The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen. The former will include much of the ancillary material from the Stewards chapter (the stuff about Rohan mostly) while the second will take the story of Aragorn as far is it goes before LotR, as well as discussing Denethor. I think this will both expand and streamline the structure of the chapters. From there, the next chapter can be The Hunt for the Ring, which essentially is composed of that text. Following that will be The War of the Ring, which may contain The Battles of the Fords of Isen. If Fin can fit The Quest for Erebor into the narrative, then that title can replace Of the Finding of the Ring as the chapter name, while that can become a subheading. I think this allows for the best structure of the narrative thus far. If we agree to this, I am inclined to remove the Stewards thread and start over, in order to remove all this confusion and restructuring of narratives (for which I apologize.) |
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07-09-2018, 04:53 PM
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#188 |
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King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,454
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Sorry this is a kind of cross posting since I started this before ArcusCalions laast message.
1) For the inclusion of Of the Finding of the Ring and The Quest for Erebor with some extract from the 1960 Hobbit I worked out in the meantime a draft. But seeing your post, I considered holding back until you would have posted the last chapter and the appendices and made only some comments on the changes you introduce in the chapter ‘The Stewards’. I realy think we should wait with changing title of the chapter until we have reached a final decision what is included. Since if we include The Quest for Erebor, this might become the title or the chapter might even be split. 2) The part about LotR of The Letter to Milton Waldman is given in full in Scull and Hammond’s The Lord of the Rings: A Reader’s Companion. I have not yet re-read it but at least we have the text. 3) The Synopses contained at the beginning of Two Towers and Return of the King: I am prety sure that these are from JRR Tolkien, but I have not yet found a prove. It is true that they are not in all editions (they make no sense at all in a one volume edition) but since the first editions were three volume editions and the publisher was much concerned about the books being each readable by themself, I suppose they were included from the start. I will further look for any indication that they are original JRR Tolkien productions. I agree that it would be risky to use them without such prove. (Probably I could not even provide the English text, since, think about it, all my English editions of LotR are one volume editions. I only know them from my German edition.) As to the story of volume III not told, I agree that this might be problematic, but on the other hand, the most importante events are collected there and these are given some space in the other sources we have, specially Of the Rings of Power. I agree with ArcusCalion’s jugdement about LotR, Appendix B and its useability. And reading his sidenote, I fully support that inclusion. Nonetheless we should consider such addition from The Great Years as are possible. I am not quite sure that we have to decised first how we build up these chapters. The approached used to make the drafts is still a decent one. So why should we not get the results of that approach (chapter The War of the Ring and the Appendices) and then work together at the text to get a result we are all satisfied with? Please do not delet any thread! This forum is a kind of documentation of our work. And it is no failure to start with diffrent assumptions. And restructuring has been done before. For the time being I agree to the plan of restructuring. Respectfully Findegil |
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07-09-2018, 09:05 PM
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#189 |
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Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 417
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1) I have posted a draft of my restructured chapter including Of the Finding of the Ring in The Stewards thread. In that thread we can begin to discuss the inclusion of The Quest for Erebor into that chapter. I would need to see your proposed draft, or if it is in any way similar to the idea I have in my restructured version.
2) Having checked the book, his summary of LotR is very much point for point the same as the synopsis, but written in a much choppier form. Therefore, the only place it would be relevant would be for the events of Return of the King, and indeed I think I will incorporate parts of it into my draft for the final chapter, but the overall meat of it is inferior in quality to the form of the Synopsis, since it is written in Tolkien's commentative style, as well as in brief bullet-point form. Update: I have updated the final draft of the last chapter, and I made copious use of the text of the letter. It is actually perfect for summarizing the events of Return of the King, and I used great portions of the end of it (heavily edited). Thank you Fin for pointing me in the direction of the full text, as I did not know it continued past the point given in the Letters of JRRT. 3) I have the text of the Synopsis typed out and added into my draft, so once we have confirmation that they were written by Tolkien (as indeed seems likely) then we may use it. Having made the draft using it, I no longer think the lack of a summmary of volume 3 is a big problem. The summary of the War of the Ring in the drafts for the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen covers all the basic points of the story quite well, and we can supplement it with extracts from the Letter to Milton Waldman. About The Great Years I do not think we will need them if we use the Synopsis and the Letter. I used parts of the Fourth Age events for the draft of the next chapter, but aside from that I do not think we will need them. As for The Hunt for the Ring, once we make a decision about including the Synopsis there is no question that I would want to include it inmy draft as its own chapter, because the Synopsis will solve the imbalance in level of story detail. Therefore, once we decide definitively that we will use the Synopsis, I will post the draft of the next chapter, which would now be The Hunt for the Ring. I will, however, wait until we have reviewed the chapter as it exists then before adding in The Battles of the Fords of Isen. For now, that can remain in our outline as an Appendix, along with The Quest for Erebor. Once we review the last chapters as they are currently envisioned, we can discuss whether or not to add them in, as I know Fin already has a draft for the latter prepared. Update: Upon completion of the last draft of the final chapter including the summary of Return of the King from the Waldman letter, I think it will be very easily possible to add in the Battles of the Fords of Isen, although we can discuss the best way to do so in due time. Apologies for the many, many posts. I know it's hard to keep track, but all of these additions are so exciting to me and I get carried away, and new ideas of how to handle them keep occurring to me! Therefore, the summary of all of this is this: 1) I will wait for Fin to comment on my restructure of The Stewards, now split into two chapters: Of the Finding of the Ring and The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen. 2) After we resolve that, he will post his ideas about possibly including The Quest for Erebor into the narrative. 3) We will decide whether or not to use the Synopsis for LotR (as I think we will). 4) I will post my draft for the last two chapters: The Hunt for the Ring and The War of the Ring. 5) We will review my drafts, and then discuss adding in The Battles of the Fords of Isen. That seems to me to be the timeline of what we need to do next. I figured I lay it out here for ease of reading. We are so close to the end! After these next chapters, it is only The New Shadow and then we finish the entire narrative of the Legendarium!! Last edited by ArcusCalion; 07-09-2018 at 10:38 PM. |
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07-11-2018, 09:45 PM
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#190 |
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Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 417
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Now that we have finished step 1) and 2) of our to-do list, we come to step 3). I am pretty much resolved to use the Synopsis of LotR at this point, as I think it is a fairly safe assumption that Tolkien wrote it himself. It is nearly identical in form and style (and sometimes even in words) to the letter to Milton Waldman which Tolkien wrote. Therefore, for that reason, and the reason that it was present in all multi-volume editions, even the first one, as well as the editor's explicit desire that each book should be able to be read alone, I think we can assume that Tolkien did in fact write the Synopsis at the front of Return of the King. If we are agreed on this, I will move on to step 4) and post the draft for The Hunt for the Ring.
Sidenote: Since making the last post, I have revised (again) my outline for the final chapters. The first of these is still The Hunt for the Ring, but what follows is different. As I currently have it, the chapter that follows I have entitles The Ring Sets Out, which was one of the rejected titles for one of the books of LotR. I think it fits, and in this chapter I have the subheading The Battles of the Fords of Isen. Following that chapter, I have The War of the Ring, which was another rejected title for one of the books of LotR, as well as the title of volume 8 of HoME. Finally, after that, I have The End of the Third Age, which was (again) another rejected title for one of the books of LotR, as well as the title of one edition of volume 9 of HoME. We can discuss these in more detail in their respective threads, but I wanted to lay out the structure so we can all be on the same page. |
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07-25-2018, 11:58 AM
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#191 |
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King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,454
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After a long search, I have found the prove that the synopsis's are original JRR Tolkien text. Hamond and Scull document in their 'Chronology' in full detail the corrospondence between JRR Tolkien and his publisher. So we get for the July the 5th 1954 the information that JRR Tolkien send the synopsis of The Fellowship of the Ring that was to be included at the begining of The Two Towers and for the 13th of September 1954 that he send the Synopsis of The Fellowship of the Ring and The Two Towers that was to be printed at the begining of The Return of the King.
Respectfully Findegil |
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07-25-2018, 12:27 PM
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#192 |
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Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 417
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Hurray! With that confirmation and the completion of our discussion of the text of The New Shadow, it appears that we have finished a first review of all the drafts for the entire narrative history of the Legendarium, from the creation until the mention of the death of Eldarion! We can now discuss if we want to begin to review the drafts for Volume 3, but I think we should now wait for others to come in and continue the reviews which Aiwendil began with the first three QS chapters.
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07-28-2018, 03:31 PM
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#193 |
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King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,454
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Well these are your drafts. So it is your decision when you put them up here.
Respectfully Findegil |
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07-31-2018, 01:06 PM
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#194 | |
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King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,454
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I think it is time to update the status.
The following status classes still are used: Untouched: Chapter is foreseen in the structure, but nothing more is done about it. First Draft: Compilation of text done by one member, not yet in a state ready for group discussion. Priv. Draft: Compilation of text done by one member, ready for group discussion, but not yet posted in the Forum. Draft: Compilation of text done by one member, and posted in the Forum. But up to now no discussion had started. Work in progress: Discussed in the Forum but not yet deemed finished by the members OR once deemed finished but known to be in need of substantial revision. Semi-finished: finished but with small points raised by new sources or new input that must be discussed OR finished by a small sub-group discussion but not yet agreed upon by all members. Finished: Done and all members are still happy with the result. Quote:
Findegil Last edited by Findegil; 08-02-2018 at 04:33 AM. |
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07-31-2018, 04:40 PM
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#195 |
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Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 417
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Looking at it all collected here, I must say the amount of progress is staggering. Fin, if you wanted, you could review the draft I posted of the Ambarkanta, since that is one of the more self-contained and straightforward texts from Volume 3, and it is already on the forum, so it would not clutter up the forum any further to review it.
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08-01-2018, 09:53 PM
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#196 |
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Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 417
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Looking through your outline, I remember that Aiwendil, you, and I all agreed upon the chapter Concerning Naugrim, Ents, and Eagles and so it should be marked finished, as per the other chapters we finished reviewing (1 and 2).
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08-02-2018, 04:51 AM
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#197 |
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King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,454
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True, and I only corrected the status of the main chapter and not of the sub-chapters. I corrected that mistake.
Respectfully Findegil |
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10-04-2018, 11:23 AM
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#198 |
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Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,140
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Hi, guys - hope you are still around.
I had some medical issues over the past few months that didn't leave much time for me to spend here. All is well now, though, and I'm looking forward to getting back into the project. I'll try to take a look at "Of Thingol and Melian" soon; hopefully, that's an easy one that we can finalize quickly. I'll also take another look at "Concerning Naugrim, Ents, and Eagles" and hopefully we can mark it finished. |
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10-05-2018, 03:50 AM
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#199 |
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King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,454
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Hello Aiwendil,
I am glad to here that you are fine. Please take your time for full recovery, even so the prospect of having you here again as an active participant in the discussion is very much appriciated. Respectfully Findegil |
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10-05-2018, 10:24 AM
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#200 |
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Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 417
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Oh wow welcome back Aiwendil! This is such good news, I'm so glad you are recovered! Correct me if Im wrong, but I thought we had decided that Concerning Naugrim, Ents, and Eagles was already finished?
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