did all the ring bearers go west? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Curulin · 11-20-2002, 10:50 AM

at the end of ROTK, it is said that all the ring bearers will go west into the undying lands, the last of whom is Samwise. However, did not Tom Bombadil bear the ring, and even put it on, for a short time whilst the Hobbits stayed in the old forest? So why is he not mentioned and does he ever go west? Just something i noticed when reading, and im not sure if there will be a definative answer, but id love to be told one anyway...

Galorme · 11-20-2002, 11:34 AM

I would just like to say something.

NOOO!!!!

That is ridiculous. He wasn't a ring bearer, he just held the ring. It had no power over him. "Ringbearer" in this context means people who were effected and harmed by the ring. Bombadil was not a ringbearer in this sense.

Oliphaunt · 11-20-2002, 12:34 PM

no need to be rude, Galorme.

Arwen1858 · 11-20-2002, 12:40 PM

I guess that would depend on the definition of 'ring-bearer.' Do you mean those who ore the ring on the quest to destroy it? Both Sam and Frodo went West. Or do you mean all who had the ring? That would include Isildur and Gollum, who both died. Or, you could mean those who were still alive when the ring was destroyed, Bilbo, Sam and Frodo. Those 3 did go West, I believe.
Arwen

Galorme · 11-20-2002, 12:42 PM

Sorry i wasn't being rude as such. It was constructive criticism.

He wasn't a ringbearer as he did not bear it, it couldn't even bear him.

[ November 20, 2002: Message edited by: Galorme ]

Manwe Sulimo · 11-20-2002, 03:04 PM

All the living Ringbearers went West:

Frodo (the One)
Sam (the One)
Gandalf (Narya)
Elrond (Nenya) -the Three may be messed up
Galadriel (Vilya)

The others, such as Isildur, the Nazgûl, Gollum, and the Dwarven kings were all dead.

Curulin · 11-20-2002, 04:25 PM

Thanks very much. I realised that all the living ring-bearers went west, and that, obviously, those ring bearers who were dead could not, but why wouldnt bombadil be counted as a bearer? Even if it had no power over him, he certainly bore it, if only for a short time...

Gwaihir the Windlord · 11-20-2002, 04:37 PM

Bombadil didn't really bear the Ring at all. In his house in the Old Forest, he took it and examined it for a few seconds, but really it was still in Frodo's posession. It was someone owning something, but having someone else look at it out of interest.

It was still in Frodo's span of bearing-time. It was his mind that worried, thought about and was protective of the Ring, certainly not the inquisitive and carefree mind of Tom.

Frodo Baggins · 11-20-2002, 07:29 PM

Sorry to be corrective but....

Vilya the greatest of the three, the ring of sapphire thr ring of air belonged to Elrond!!!!

Nenya, the ring of adamant (whatever that is) the ring of water belonged to Galadriel.

WarBringer · 11-20-2002, 07:36 PM

bombidil is definitely not a bearer-and is to pure to be affected, in my opinion. Besides he has no interest in material things.

Curulin · 11-21-2002, 10:00 AM

I see your point, but don't agree entirely. I understand that he didnt have any interest in marerial things, (which may or may not be the reason the ring has no effect on him), but i dont see why this makes him exempt from ring-bearing. i suppose its just one of those things...

Susan Delgado · 11-22-2002, 01:47 PM

Quote:

It was still in Frodo's span of bearing-time. It was his mind that worried, thought about and was protective of the Ring, certainly not the inquisitive and carefree mind of Tom.

*ahem*

Man-of-the-Wold · 11-22-2002, 08:40 PM

I think the operative aspect of "Bearer" in this sense is that of bearing a burden.

The very point as discussed at the Council was that Bombadil was not burdened by the Ring, or by anything for that matter, which is why his inherent non-seriousness, disqualified him from being a Bearer.

The Elven-ring bearers were, of course, destined to go West anyway.

For Frodo and Bilbo, it was clearly a chance to live out the remainder of their lives in a way and place in which the damage done to them in bearing the Ring could be relieved. For Sam the damage was probably not so serious, but he was granted the chance to see Frodo again.

Knight of Gondor · 11-22-2002, 09:32 PM

The reason Frodo went into the West was because it was the only place he could find rest/peace. Tom had no emotional/physical turmoil over the Ring. Plus, he didn't bear the Ring, he merely examined the Ring. Tom is Tom is Tom, and he didn't need relief from that burden.

nerddogs · 11-22-2002, 09:38 PM

Quote:

I think the operative aspect of "Bearer" in this sense is that of bearing a burden.
The very point as discussed at the Council was that Bombadil was not burdened by the Ring, or by anything for that matter, which is why his inherent non-seriousness, disqualified him from being a Bearer.

I think so too, but there might be one contradiction to this point: Gandalf held the ring in Bag End and threw it into the fire. The ring had been growing on his mind as he told Frodo but then also he was not 100% sure this was the One ring. So it might or might not have been a "burden" to Gandalf. Maybe a "bearer" is simply one who had wore the ring.

I've been thinking lately about this point: There is no doubt that Sam was a ring bearer. But when he gave the ring back to Frodo was it of his own freewill?

Curulin · 11-23-2002, 04:02 AM

Yes, i remember it being from his own freewill. I think he had had it for a sufficiantly short time to allow him to do this still, hobbits seemed to be pretty resiliant to the power of the ring.
As for having to wear the ring for one to be a bearer, Tom Bombadil did wear the ring for a short time, although it didnt do anything. I agree, I wouldnt really consider Bombadil as a bearer because it was no burden for him. Perhaps this says something about the ring and the nature of Sauron's will rather than Bombadil...

Galorme · 11-23-2002, 04:13 AM

Is it just me, or are hobbits resistant to all "magic"? The ring doesn't turn them fast, the Morgul Poison works slowly on them, even age-old prophecies don’t hinder them. Frodo could even withstand the will of Sauron. I am sure there are other examples, hmm yeah like Sam beating the wills of the Watchers on Kirith Ungol. Maybe even with Shelob, she was port Maia, maybe she was putting forth all her spells at Sam, but he just kinda shrugged them off. Is this merely something to do with them being made of “Sterner Stuff” or is it something-deeper do you reckon.

Mhoram · 11-23-2002, 04:16 AM

Shelob was not part Maia.

Mhoram · 11-23-2002, 04:27 AM

While Hobbits aren't 'resistant' to magic in such that they are immune, they do seem to be less easily affected by it. I would theorize that this would be due to the fact that they are a completely non-magical species. I have no real evidence, it just seems like that would be how it works.

Curulin · 11-23-2002, 04:29 AM

Wasn't she? I thoght Ungoliant might have been, but obviously not then...

Hobbits, hmm, really good question. I'm not sure, but theres certainly something about them that makes them a little tougher. I think the best way to look at it is to see them as yet another nook in the mind of Iluvater, who, when he created them desired them to be tougher and more resilaiant. But theres probably a more concrete answer. Alternatively, it could be all that pipe-weed and ale...

Anarion · 11-23-2002, 08:07 PM

Adamant is a very hard mineral substance.
Bombadil is more the Maverick of Middle Earth than he is someone who falls under the Power of the One. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Knight of Gondor · 11-23-2002, 09:22 PM

Actually, on the subject of Sam and whether or not he surrendered the Ring of his own free will, Frodo actually snatched it from him in the tower of Cirinth Ungol.

But isn't it great that Sam wound up feeling no difficulty giving Frodo the Ring? It seemed that if Frodo had asked for it back (if he hadn't been under such stern influence of the Ring already), then Sam would have felt hesitant. I wonder if Sam was sort of saved as you might say, from feeling the conflict of will at giving up the Ring. Make sense?

Also, hobbits are more resiliant, but not tougher against...you know, magic. But I don't think Shelob had any spells she was putting on him. I don't think anyone but wizards and people with power like that can do that.

Gwaihir the Windlord · 11-23-2002, 11:29 PM

No, I don't think Shelob had any 'spells'. Except for perhaps fear, but then while that was in a sense magic, it comes still under the Hobbit's 'resilience'.

I think that the fact Sam did not resist Frodo taking the Ring from him again was because, having borne it for that short space of time as he did, he perhaps had an inkling of what Frodo was feeling and knew that he had to have it back. He was down to earth, and was not interested in power but getting the job done.

But of course, had he borne it for longer I am sure it would have sunk its talons in eventually.

Man-of-the-Wold · 11-24-2002, 01:02 AM

In some ways couldn't the apparent ability of Hobbits to not be so easily overcome by Evil Power be in some way akin to Tom Bombadil's otherwise complete immunity.

The are simple people of good will and kind hearts. It not the innocense, humility and good cheer the reason for such resilence?

Carannillion · 11-24-2002, 07:34 AM

Bombadil is too mysterious for me to even begin thinking about... I think... "doh!"
Let us not forget that Bombadil was a very very very special Maia (it is established that he [i]was[/], right?). I do not think his "resistance" to the Ring is the same thing as the hobbits' "resistance".

Gandalf Never wore the Ring, he simply took it in and out of the fire in Bag End.

Dimhuanion · 11-24-2002, 09:31 AM

Tom Bombodil never really bore it, as he had no desire or interest in material things so when he put the ring on he did not actually bear at as he did not regard it as anything of interest to him and therefore having no power over him.

Knight of Gondor · 11-24-2002, 04:46 PM

Quote:

He was down to earth, and was not interested in power but getting the job done.

He wasn't yet...had he borne the Ring much longer those feelings would have been stoked...remember his thoughts on becoming Captain Sam? Thank goodness that Sam was able to hand it back to Frodo so soon! But question: wasn't the eye sensing him wearing the Ring, like it was when Frodo bore the Ring on Amon Hen?

kharank · 11-25-2002, 09:53 AM

Hmmm, possibly. But I think the reason Frodo was in danger on Amon Hen was because he was on that Seat of Seeing, which kinda revealed him openly, and would have been a pain in the *** if he hadnt taken off the ring, cos Sauron woulda see him...

Back to Bombadil though, i reckon he could count as a ring-bearer, but thats just my opinion, and it depends very much on your definition of bearer. Tom held the ring, and even put it on his finger, so surely that must count for something, even if it did have no effect on anybody. Oh, and by the way Curulin, I've heard this topic of conversation before. 24601 mean anything to you? lol

Curulin · 11-25-2002, 04:11 PM

yeah, i agree with you, although, i wonder if bombadil was invited west by the valar? i suppose it all depends on what he was... but that is a question for another forum.

hey, kharank, werent you the b*****d who borrowed cossette? lol.

midgetman · 12-07-2002, 02:39 PM

Someone way above me asked what adament was as in the ring of adament it means that it is hard it is also a word that symbolizes power.

11-20-2002, 10:50 AM	#1
Curulin Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: The woods of Orome. Posts: 58	did all the ring bearers go west? at the end of ROTK, it is said that all the ring bearers will go west into the undying lands, the last of whom is Samwise. However, did not Tom Bombadil bear the ring, and even put it on, for a short time whilst the Hobbits stayed in the old forest? So why is he not mentioned and does he ever go west? Just something i noticed when reading, and im not sure if there will be a definative answer, but id love to be told one anyway... __________________ Well, I'm back.

11-20-2002, 11:34 AM	#2
Galorme Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: London Posts: 337	I would just like to say something. NOOO!!!! That is ridiculous. He wasn't a ring bearer, he just held the ring. It had no power over him. "Ringbearer" in this context means people who were effected and harmed by the ring. Bombadil was not a ringbearer in this sense. __________________ Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! The day has come! Behold people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!

11-20-2002, 12:40 PM	#4
Arwen1858 Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Gondor Posts: 516	I guess that would depend on the definition of 'ring-bearer.' Do you mean those who ore the ring on the quest to destroy it? Both Sam and Frodo went West. Or do you mean all who had the ring? That would include Isildur and Gollum, who both died. Or, you could mean those who were still alive when the ring was destroyed, Bilbo, Sam and Frodo. Those 3 did go West, I believe. Arwen __________________ Will Turner: "This is either madness or brilliance." Jack Sparrow: "It's remarkable how often those two traits coincide." ~ Pirates of the Caribbean

11-20-2002, 12:42 PM	#5
Galorme Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: London Posts: 337	Sorry i wasn't being rude as such. It was constructive criticism. He wasn't a ringbearer as he did not bear it, it couldn't even bear him. [ November 20, 2002: Message edited by: Galorme ] __________________ Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! The day has come! Behold people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!

11-20-2002, 03:04 PM	#6
Manwe Sulimo Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Taurelilómëa-tumbalemorna Tumbaletaurëa Lómëanor Posts: 553	All the living Ringbearers went West: Frodo (the One) Sam (the One) Gandalf (Narya) Elrond (Nenya) -the Three may be messed up Galadriel (Vilya) The others, such as Isildur, the Nazgûl, Gollum, and the Dwarven kings were all dead. __________________ "Monkeys learn sign language so they can tell the dolphins they love them."

11-20-2002, 12:34 PM	#3
Oliphaunt Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jul 2000 Posts: 48	no need to be rude, Galorme.

11-20-2002, 04:25 PM	#7
Curulin Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: The woods of Orome. Posts: 58	Thanks very much. I realised that all the living ring-bearers went west, and that, obviously, those ring bearers who were dead could not, but why wouldnt bombadil be counted as a bearer? Even if it had no power over him, he certainly bore it, if only for a short time... __________________ Well, I'm back.

11-20-2002, 04:37 PM	#8
Gwaihir the Windlord Essence of Darkness Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Evermore Posts: 1,420	Bombadil didn't really bear the Ring at all. In his house in the Old Forest, he took it and examined it for a few seconds, but really it was still in Frodo's posession. It was someone owning something, but having someone else look at it out of interest. It was still in Frodo's span of bearing-time. It was his mind that worried, thought about and was protective of the Ring, certainly not the inquisitive and carefree mind of Tom.

11-20-2002, 07:29 PM	#9
Frodo Baggins Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Bag-End, Under-Hill, Hobbiton-across-the Water Posts: 606	Sorry to be corrective but.... Vilya the greatest of the three, the ring of sapphire thr ring of air belonged to Elrond!!!! Nenya, the ring of adamant (whatever that is) the ring of water belonged to Galadriel. __________________ "I'm your huckleberry....that's just my game."

11-20-2002, 07:36 PM	#10
WarBringer Wight Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Wandering The North Posts: 184	bombidil is definitely not a bearer-and is to pure to be affected, in my opinion. Besides he has no interest in material things. __________________ Fortune Favors the Bold...

11-21-2002, 10:00 AM	#11
Curulin Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: The woods of Orome. Posts: 58	I see your point, but don't agree entirely. I understand that he didnt have any interest in marerial things, (which may or may not be the reason the ring has no effect on him), but i dont see why this makes him exempt from ring-bearing. i suppose its just one of those things... __________________ Well, I'm back.

11-22-2002, 08:40 PM	#13
Man-of-the-Wold Wight Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: With Tux, dread poodle of Pinnath Galin Posts: 239	I think the operative aspect of "Bearer" in this sense is that of bearing a burden. The very point as discussed at the Council was that Bombadil was not burdened by the Ring, or by anything for that matter, which is why his inherent non-seriousness, disqualified him from being a Bearer. The Elven-ring bearers were, of course, destined to go West anyway. For Frodo and Bilbo, it was clearly a chance to live out the remainder of their lives in a way and place in which the damage done to them in bearing the Ring could be relieved. For Sam the damage was probably not so serious, but he was granted the chance to see Frodo again. __________________ The hoes unrecked in the fields were flung, __ and fallen ladders in the long grass lay __ of the lush orchards; every tree there turned __ its tangled head and eyed them secretly, __ and the ears listened of the nodding grasses; __ though noontide glowed on land and leaf, __ their limbs were chilled.

11-22-2002, 09:32 PM	#14
Knight of Gondor Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Kentucky Posts: 744	The reason Frodo went into the West was because it was the only place he could find rest/peace. Tom had no emotional/physical turmoil over the Ring. Plus, he didn't bear the Ring, he merely examined the Ring. Tom is Tom is Tom, and he didn't need relief from that burden. __________________ Eagerly awaiting the REAL Return of the King - Jesus Christ! Revelation 19:11-16

11-23-2002, 04:02 AM	#16
Curulin Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: The woods of Orome. Posts: 58	Yes, i remember it being from his own freewill. I think he had had it for a sufficiantly short time to allow him to do this still, hobbits seemed to be pretty resiliant to the power of the ring. As for having to wear the ring for one to be a bearer, Tom Bombadil did wear the ring for a short time, although it didnt do anything. I agree, I wouldnt really consider Bombadil as a bearer because it was no burden for him. Perhaps this says something about the ring and the nature of Sauron's will rather than Bombadil... __________________ Well, I'm back.

11-23-2002, 04:13 AM	#17
Galorme Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: London Posts: 337	Is it just me, or are hobbits resistant to all "magic"? The ring doesn't turn them fast, the Morgul Poison works slowly on them, even age-old prophecies don’t hinder them. Frodo could even withstand the will of Sauron. I am sure there are other examples, hmm yeah like Sam beating the wills of the Watchers on Kirith Ungol. Maybe even with Shelob, she was port Maia, maybe she was putting forth all her spells at Sam, but he just kinda shrugged them off. Is this merely something to do with them being made of “Sterner Stuff” or is it something-deeper do you reckon. __________________ Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! The day has come! Behold people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!

11-23-2002, 04:16 AM	#18
Mhoram Dead and Loving It Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: The land of fast cars and loud guitars. Posts: 363	Shelob was not part Maia.

11-23-2002, 04:27 AM	#19
Mhoram Dead and Loving It Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: The land of fast cars and loud guitars. Posts: 363	While Hobbits aren't 'resistant' to magic in such that they are immune, they do seem to be less easily affected by it. I would theorize that this would be due to the fact that they are a completely non-magical species. I have no real evidence, it just seems like that would be how it works.

11-23-2002, 04:29 AM	#20
Curulin Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: The woods of Orome. Posts: 58	Wasn't she? I thoght Ungoliant might have been, but obviously not then... Hobbits, hmm, really good question. I'm not sure, but theres certainly something about them that makes them a little tougher. I think the best way to look at it is to see them as yet another nook in the mind of Iluvater, who, when he created them desired them to be tougher and more resilaiant. But theres probably a more concrete answer. Alternatively, it could be all that pipe-weed and ale... __________________ Well, I'm back.

11-23-2002, 08:07 PM	#21
Anarion Animated Skeleton Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: at sea Posts: 27	Adamant is a very hard mineral substance. Bombadil is more the Maverick of Middle Earth than he is someone who falls under the Power of the One. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

11-23-2002, 09:22 PM	#22
Knight of Gondor Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Kentucky Posts: 744	Actually, on the subject of Sam and whether or not he surrendered the Ring of his own free will, Frodo actually snatched it from him in the tower of Cirinth Ungol. But isn't it great that Sam wound up feeling no difficulty giving Frodo the Ring? It seemed that if Frodo had asked for it back (if he hadn't been under such stern influence of the Ring already), then Sam would have felt hesitant. I wonder if Sam was sort of saved as you might say, from feeling the conflict of will at giving up the Ring. Make sense? Also, hobbits are more resiliant, but not tougher against...you know, magic. But I don't think Shelob had any spells she was putting on him. I don't think anyone but wizards and people with power like that can do that. __________________ Eagerly awaiting the REAL Return of the King - Jesus Christ! Revelation 19:11-16

11-23-2002, 11:29 PM	#23
Gwaihir the Windlord Essence of Darkness Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Evermore Posts: 1,420	No, I don't think Shelob had any 'spells'. Except for perhaps fear, but then while that was in a sense magic, it comes still under the Hobbit's 'resilience'. I think that the fact Sam did not resist Frodo taking the Ring from him again was because, having borne it for that short space of time as he did, he perhaps had an inkling of what Frodo was feeling and knew that he had to have it back. He was down to earth, and was not interested in power but getting the job done. But of course, had he borne it for longer I am sure it would have sunk its talons in eventually.

11-24-2002, 01:02 AM	#24
Man-of-the-Wold Wight Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: With Tux, dread poodle of Pinnath Galin Posts: 239	In some ways couldn't the apparent ability of Hobbits to not be so easily overcome by Evil Power be in some way akin to Tom Bombadil's otherwise complete immunity. The are simple people of good will and kind hearts. It not the innocense, humility and good cheer the reason for such resilence? __________________ The hoes unrecked in the fields were flung, __ and fallen ladders in the long grass lay __ of the lush orchards; every tree there turned __ its tangled head and eyed them secretly, __ and the ears listened of the nodding grasses; __ though noontide glowed on land and leaf, __ their limbs were chilled.

11-24-2002, 07:34 AM	#25
Carannillion Wight Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Mici Firya Posts: 135	Bombadil is too mysterious for me to even begin thinking about... I think... "doh!" Let us not forget that Bombadil was a very very very special Maia (it is established that he [i]was[/], right?). I do not think his "resistance" to the Ring is the same thing as the hobbits' "resistance". Gandalf Never wore the Ring, he simply took it in and out of the fire in Bag End. __________________ A cry for the people, but there's noone there to hear...

11-24-2002, 09:31 AM	#26
Dimhuanion Pile O'Bones Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 11	Tom Bombodil never really bore it, as he had no desire or interest in material things so when he put the ring on he did not actually bear at as he did not regard it as anything of interest to him and therefore having no power over him. __________________ Fly Fools

11-25-2002, 09:53 AM	#28
kharank Animated Skeleton Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Belgium Posts: 31	Hmmm, possibly. But I think the reason Frodo was in danger on Amon Hen was because he was on that Seat of Seeing, which kinda revealed him openly, and would have been a pain in the *** if he hadnt taken off the ring, cos Sauron woulda see him... Back to Bombadil though, i reckon he could count as a ring-bearer, but thats just my opinion, and it depends very much on your definition of bearer. Tom held the ring, and even put it on his finger, so surely that must count for something, even if it did have no effect on anybody. Oh, and by the way Curulin, I've heard this topic of conversation before. 24601 mean anything to you? lol __________________ High Lord Kharank has spoken

11-25-2002, 04:11 PM	#29
Curulin Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: The woods of Orome. Posts: 58	yeah, i agree with you, although, i wonder if bombadil was invited west by the valar? i suppose it all depends on what he was... but that is a question for another forum. hey, kharank, werent you the b*****d who borrowed cossette? lol. __________________ Well, I'm back.

12-07-2002, 02:39 PM	#30
midgetman Pile O'Bones Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Michigan Posts: 11	Someone way above me asked what adament was as in the ring of adament it means that it is hard it is also a word that symbolizes power.