This may get people odd

[Galorme]

I know that Frodo was burdened with the ring from carrying it for so long and his soul and spirit was drained but...

I was talking to my friend after seeing the movie, and he said "Frodo is really crap isn't he". And i said "no he...[thinks] well i supose he is". I mean you can say "he destroyed Sauron" but he didn't stand a chance if it wasn't for Sam. Lets recap what Frodo did while he was the ringbearer:-

-Stabed a troll in the leg
-Got stabbed by a big orc
-Hid a lot
-Got bit by a spider
You get the idea

But! Lets reveiw what SAM did in the few hours he was a ring bearer for:
-First up he beat Gollum in a back attack (which gollum said no-one has done before)
-Killed the decendant of a very powerful Maia (or mortally wounded)
-Won a power of wills against two ancient, malice filled spirits
-Stormed an orc tower, slaying their captain
- Rescued Frodo
- Raided the orc tower fdr diguises and food
- Then gave up the ring very willingly to Frodo, which all the other ringbearers did very grudgingly

I wonder why this is? Is it because Sam did not have time to fall under the rings spell? Or is he fundamentally stronger than Frodo?

[Oliphaunt]

That was an intersting post. I agree that Sam takes a more active role, but that Frodo did a good job of bearing the ring without wearing it, which Gandalf warned against. Remember, Sam out on the ring pretty much right away.

[Galorme]

I apologise. That should have read "A very powerful spirit, who may, or may not be a Maia". Personally I believe that she was a Maia, and the reason that Tolkien left these things so ambiguous was so it left room for people's imaginations. Like all art, it is open to interpretation in parts (I fear retribution from Burrahobbit now).

[Kuruharan]

Didn't have time to fall under Ring spell.
But let's take a look at some of his accomplishments to see.

Stormed an orc tower, slaying their captain

Only two orcs were left. Didn't kill Shagrat (who was the Captain). He killed Snaga almost by accident, so I don't really think that counts as a mighty deed.

Raided the orc tower fdr diguises and food

Not so hard considering it was empty.

First up he beat Gollum in a back attack (which gollum said no-one has done before)

That was before he got the Ring, but we'll give him the point anyway.

Killed the decendant of a very powerful Maia (or mortally wounded)

That takes guts and no lie. But it was also before he got the Ring.

Won a power of wills against two ancient, malice filled spirits

Go Sam!

Rescued Frodo

Yippeee!

Then gave up the ring very willingly to Frodo, which all the other ringbearers did very grudgingly

That was probably his greatest accomplishment when he carried the Ring. But I think that he was only able to do it because he had the Ring only a few hours.

You also left off one of Sam's better accomplishments in his defeating the delusions that assailed him when he was going into Mordor.

As for Frodo you left off that he actually managed to make it. Sam actually only carried him a very little bit. Frodo made the rest of the trip himself.

I think that they were suited for their own roles and did them to the best of their ability. I'm not sure that you could really compare them because they were not called to do the same things.

obloquy: tsk! tsk! You can't prove Goldberry had a fea any more than you can't prove that Ungoliant was a Maia. It said that she came from "Outside" Arda which narrows the possibilities considerably. The possibility exists that she was Maia.
[img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

[ August 03, 2002: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]

[Feanaro]

"Stormed an orc tower, slaying their captain"

No he didn't. Shagrat (the Captain of Cirith Ungol) escaped Sam with the items from Frodo with him. You're thinking of Snaga, the underling who rebelled against Shagrat.

Ack! Kuruharan is too quick! Upon closer inspection, Sam did not even kill Snaga. Snaga was fighting Sam, and threw him down at one point, but tripped over the ladderhead and fell, breaking his neck. We can't say Sam killed him per se, but that he was the cause of Snaga's death.

[ August 03, 2002: Message edited by: Feanaro ]

[Galorme]

Yeah i was wrong about that, but it was still a pretty cool deed. He didn't know that the orc tower was deserted, but he marched in anyway (the ring didn't help it with that it is said the ring didn't confer confidence). Sorry for the very bad spelling of for as well.

[Manwe Sulimo]

Let's review what Frodo did again....

-Took the burden of the Ring upon himself (yes, that was when he had the Ring)
-Defied Boromir, even after he offered it to Aragorn
-Set off to Mordor alone (and I'm sure none of us know how much courage that took)
-Almost redeemed one corrupted by the Ring
-Withstood the terror of the Nazgûl (in the Shire and near Minas Morgul)
-Didn't get captured or lost the Ring for the entire quest
-Bore the Ring through Mordor (yes, that is very hard)
-Survived the entire thing

Oh yeah....he also stood up to Sauron himself (the Red Eye)...not that that's important....

[greyhavener]

Galorme, I got the same reaction from one of my sons (the one who hadn't read the books). He thought Frodo spent a lot of time running and hiding too.

Everyone did a good job of pointing out what Frodo did. I think Frodo flies in the face of what we think of as an epic hero. Strider and Legolas are epic heroes. Frodo is...well...he reminds me of a verse in the Bible that says "strength is made perfect in weakness.

I've heard a quote: courage isn't the absence of fear it's doing what must be done even when you are afraid.

Frodo volunteered for the job knowing he was just a hobbit, not one of the stronger races, while the others argued, some out of pride and arrogance, about who should do it or should it be done.
Frodo may have been tempted to put on the ring out of fear, but his motivation wasn't for the power or glory often found in the strong (though Aragorn seemed to avoid this too).
Frodo was willling to trust the wisdom and truth imparted by Gandalf, Aragorn, and Galadriel over his own desires or impressions about the ring.
I actually find this pretty impressive considering how Boromir and even Galadriel were tempted by the power the ring offered.

[ August 03, 2002: Message edited by: greyhavener ]

[Child of the 7th Age]

Re Sam being "stronger" than Frodo...

When Manwe or Eru or Gandalf or, whoever did the choosing, selected the Ringbearer, they weren't looking primarily for the element of "strength". If strength had been the chief criteria needed to accomplish the Ringquest, surely a hobbit would never have been appointed. One could surely argue that someone like Aragorn or Galadriel had a "stronger" personality and character than either Frodo or Sam.

Then, what was the key? On one level, you can say we will never know the answer to this. Why does a particular person get chosen by providence to do a particular thing (that is, if you believe in the possibility of such things).? Moses, for example, seems a very unlikely leader to lead the Jewish people out of Egypt. He had a speech defect, and virtually no understanding of his own people and their traditions because of how he had been raised. But, chosen he was.

The same is true for Frodo. On the face of it, he hardly looks like the strongest candidate.

Why Frodo? Well, we can't know but we can guess. We know, for instance, that he had to be a member of a race that Sauron would never suspect, a people deemed to be of small account in the eyes of the world. We know too, from the development of the story, that it had to be someone who was able to learn and show pity. Sam had many strong points, but showing pity was not one of them. If Frodo had not been there to restrain Sam, I believe the latter might well have come to blows with Gollum at some point. And, without Gollum, there would have been no destruction of the Ring.

Frodo's task was to get the ring to Mount Doom where it could be destroyed. Tolkien clearly state in his Letters that it was impossible for Frodo, or any being who was less than perfect, to voluntarily dispose of the Ring. And that would have included Sam since he was no more perfect than Frodo!

What did Frodo have that Sam didn't have? It was the thing that Sam saw when he gazed down at Frodo and looked in his face. This was what made Sam so love Frodo as a friend. There is a beautiful scene in the book on the plains of Mordor when Sam looked down and saw the light shining from Frodo's face.

In several scenes, it is commented that Frodo had the light of an Elf-friend in his eyes. At some points, his face was said to actually glow with light. Also, Frodo quite frequently saw visions of what lay beyond in the Blessed Lands. He had yearnings for the Sea. His sweet gentleness and hesitation to use violent means are other examples of this same leaning.

Frodo then was not your usual hobbit or usual hero. For lack of a better word, he had sensitivity to things that lay beyond the normal spectrum of experience. Today we might call this spirituality or spiritul leanings. Indeed, by the final scene at Grey Havens, Frodo has taken on the role of prophet and seer, telling Sam about his future and the possibility of his friend sailing later to the West.

Earlier, at Rivendell, Gandalf himself said he was uncetain what end Frodo would finally come to. "Not to evil, I think. He may become like a glass filled with a clear light for eyes to see that can." It is almost as if Frodo had the capacity to become like a little sliver of the phial of Galadriel. And in a battle of light against darkness, this little sliver of light was no small thing. It was different than the physical strength possessed by Sam, but even more needed in order to resist the will of Sauron which pounded down on Frodo day-after-day.

That light then had something to do with the kind of person Frodo was and why he was chosen. Even in his partial failure, he stands as an example of what can be accomplished by perserverence, dedication, and endurance of suffering.

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[ August 04, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[Birdland]

Won a power of wills against two ancient, malice filled spirits

Well, he did have the Phial of Galadriel to give him a little help there. But at least he had the willpower to use it in a tight fix.

Not to denigrate Sam at all, because he is a very heroic, strong-hearted figure, but it seems he had an enormous amount of luck behind him (or probably a Higher Power) when it came to his feats in Cirith Ungol. It almost borders on the fantastic, especially the part where he puts on the Ring right in Mordor. A Nazgul should have swooped down and picked him off right then and there. Oh, that's right, they weren't "at home". Another bit of fantastic luck.

Let's also not forget that Frodo stood up to Shelob as well, and if the tables had been turned, I have no doubt that he would have advanced on the spider if it had been Sam who was taken.

But you also have to take into consideration the duties of the two Hobbits. Sam's sole duty (as well as the others in the party), was to protect Frodo. Frodo's primary duty was to protect the Ring, at all costs. You don't protect a precious object by putting yourself forward into any skirmish or battle, risking yourself being killed or captured.

At Weathertop and Moria, I think Frodo aquitted himself quite well. The only other attack he faced - before Cirith Ungol, that is - was from Boromir! The fact that he didn't stab Boromir out of hand as he tried to take the Ring is only to Frodo's credit.

So let's knock off these "Frodo was a whooze" threads. The fact that Frodo was more of the "non-violent resistance" school of thought is what made him the perfect Ringbearer. I'm sure not only Gandalf, but Ghandi, would have approved.

[ August 03, 2002: Message edited by: Birdland ]

[Legolas]

Frodo hid a lot because he had the ring. It was to be protected at all costs.

If Sam had been the ring-bearer, he would've been the one being defended and Frodo would've been fighting for him.

[ August 04, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]

[Manwe Sulimo]

Just nitpicking:

Birdland, I'm almost positive that it says that Sam took the Ring off before entering Mordor, and thereby escaping close scrutiny from the Eye.

[Evisse the Blue]

I don't think it's a question of who should be given most of the credit for destroying Sauron. It may sound cheesy but it all comes down to - for lack of a better word- teamwork and comradership. Neither Frodo nor Sam could have done it alone.
Child of the 7th age, I agree with what you said about Frodo. It certainly wasn't for his strength, or wisdom, or intelligence that he was chosen to bear the ring. He had to be 'the most unusual suspect' - in order for Sauron not to suspect the plot. And the rest was left up to 'destiny' or 'luck'.

[Birdland]

Neeker-Breeker to Nit-Picker: [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

I think Sam was technically in Mordor when he put on the Ring, so he could escape the attention of the Orc bands coming up the pass. And he had it on while following the bands through Shelob's tunnels, which may not be considered Mordor, but is close enough to make little difference.

[Galorme]

When i made that post i knew that it would arouse a lot of emotion. Frodo is a very strong willed Hobbit, and the power inside of him in remicent of the fierce, desperate spirit of elf in a pinch. Considering that a large part of Sauron's spirit, and therefore his will went into the ring, to get to Mount Doom must be akin to wrestling Sauron in person. It seems to be that Frodo and sam are like two sides of the same coin. While Frodo's power is directed towards fighting the will of the right by beeing gentle and non-violent, sams strength is chanalled into powers of strength and power.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Galorme --

I definitely agree with you. Sam and Frodo had separate roles and separate gifts, but both were equally needed. Neither could have been successful if they had tried to go it alone. This is why I also see red when I read the writings of many critics, who waste great amounts of time arguing whether Sam or Frodo is the "true hero" of the book. They just don't get it!!! (Or maybe they had to write something to qualify for getting tenure and this is the best they could come up with!)

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[mark12_30]

I'm still stuck on the list at the top of what Book-Frodo accomplished. Why limit it to what he did once he was Ringbearer? He was chosen to be ringbearer for many reasons, but one of them I think was that he had "shown considerable resistance" to the ring thus far.

He was sorely tempted to put the ring on in the barrow and save his own skin; but instead, he picked up a blade and hacked off the Barrow-Wight's hand, saving his three companions. (my first gripe with the movie)

At Weathertop, he overcame his fear enough to dive forward and take a whack at the Witch-King of Angmar. He missed- but he tried. He wasn't cowering in a corner. (my second gripe with the movie)

He hung in there as the tip of the Nazgul blade worked its way inward; Gandalf was amazed at his toughness and said it would have overwhelmed others much more quickly.

And at the ford, he actually stood in the stirrups, waved his sword at all nine of the Nazgul, and said, Go Back to Mordor; you shall have neither the Ring nor me. (my third serous gripe with the movie.) The effort overcame him in the test of wills; but who else had withstood all nine Nazgul together, and challenged them in a test of wills at all? Not many. (Generally speaking, just one is scary enough.) That took incredible pluck for a little hobbit.

So after that, did he set his focus on Just Getting There? Yes. That was his job. He was tenacious about it to a fault. And (let's review) he was ready to march straight into the black gates alone if need be. I'm glad Gollum talked him out of that one.

Meanwhile-- C7A, Amen to all that!! (Hey, have you read War Story yet?...)

Okay, I can go and calm down now I think.