The Statures of Elves and Men: Changes - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Tar Elenion · 07-26-2001, 04:11 PM

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Early 20's: "Men were almost of a stature at first with Elves, the fairies being far greater and Men smaller than now" From BoLT1.
Very early conception when these 'Elves' were 'fairies' and not the Eldar of Tolkiens later conception, just very different and distant predecessors.

ca. '26: "In early days Eldar and Men were of nearly equal stature and power of body... Men from the first though slightly bigger were more frail." SoME, Earliest Silmarillion, chapter 7.
Note Men are only slightly bigger than the Elves. No difference is mentioned about power of body. The distinguishing elements of the Edainic house have not been introduced yet.

ca. '30: "In early days Eldar and Men were of little different stature and bodily might; but the Eldar were blessed with greater skill, beauty and wit... More frail were men..." SoME, The Quenta, Chapter 7.
Now Men and Elves are equivelent in height and strength the remark about Men being slightly bigger is dropped. Still no writings on the Edainic stature.

ca. '37: "In those days Elves and Men were of like stature and strength of body.. More frail were Men." LR, Quenta Silmarillion, Chapter 7. (And also the '77 published Sil).
The idea of Men being bigger remained dropped. (Note Elves and Men generic not specific, just as with the above posts, Eldar=Elves). But Edainic elements enter.

ca. '37: "[Hador's] folk were yellow haired and blue-eyed for the most part... They were of greater strength and stature in body than the Elves... Like to them were the woodland folk of Haleth, but they were not so tall; their backs were broader their legs shorter and less swift... the people of Beor were dark or brown of hair; their eyes grey, and their faces fair to look upon...Their height was no greater than that of the Elves of that day, and they were most like to the Gnomes; for they were eager of mind, cunning handed, swift of understanding, long in memory." LR, Quenta Silmarillion, Chapter 10 Of Men and Dwarves.
Hador's folk are greater in strenth and stature than Elves (generic/average); the Folk of Haleth are related to the Hadorians; the Beorians are no greater in height than the Elves (again generic), they are compared with the Gnomes (who are only now starting to become Noldor), in terms of mental abilities, and certain physical skills NOT in terms of actual physical atributes (height or strength).

ca. '51: "The men of Beor were dark or brown of hair, but fair of face, with grey eyes; of shaply form, having courage and endurance, yet they were no greater in stature than the Eldar of that day. For the Noldor indeed were tall as are in the latter days men of great might and majesty. But the people of Hador were of yet greater strength and stature, mighty among the children of Eru, ready in mind bold and steadfast. Yellowhaired they were for the most part...Like unto them were th woodmen of Haleth, yet somewhat broader and less high." WotJ, Grey Annals, 422.
Here it speaks of the Beorians being no greater in stature than the Eldar (generic including the Sindar, Nandor and Noldor). It then goes on to say that the Noldor (in general) are as tall as men of great might and majesty (specific) of later days (the Numenoreans were men of great might and majesty of later days). The Hadorian are of yet greater strength and stature, but is this comparing them to the Noldor? I think not. As with the other writings it is comparing them with the Beorians. The Noldor are distinguished by being as tall as later men of strength and majesty (such as Numenoreans are). The Halethians are still related to the Hadorians.

ca. '58: "Many of [Hador's] people were like him golden-haired and blue-eyed; they were tall and strong, quick to wrath and laughter, fierce in resolve, fast in loyalty, joyous in heart, the children of Illuvatar in the youth of Mankind. But the people of the House of Beor were dark or brown of hair; their eyes were grey and keen and their faces fair and shapely. Lithe and lean in body they were long-enduring in hardship. Of all men they were most like the Noldor and most loved by them; for they were eager of mind, cunning handed, swift in understanding, long in memory... Like to them were the woodland folk of Haleth; but they were shorter and broader, sterner and less swift." WotJ, Later Quenta Silmarillion, Chapter 14, Of the Coming of Men.
Now it becomes clear that the height and strength comparison is between the Hadorians and Beorians (or if not it was dropped). Again the Beorians are generally less in stature and strength than the Hadorians, but note here they are 'lithe and lean in body'. The comparison btween the Noldor and Beorians is again not physical attributes, but skills of mind and body. The Folk of Haleth are now being related to the Beorians.

ca. '68: "For the most part [the Folk of Hador] were a tall people, with flaxen or golden hair and blue-grey eyes, but there were not a few among them that had dark hair though all were fair skinned... There were fair-haired men and women among the Folk of Beor, but most had brown hair (going usually with brown eyes), and many were less fair in skin some indeed being swarthy. Men as tall as the folk of Hador were rare among them, and most were broader and more heavy in build. In association with the Eldar... they became as enhanced in arts and manners as the folk of Hador, but if these surpassed them in swiftness of mind and body, in daring and noble generosity, the Folk of Beor were more steadfast in endurance of hardship and sorrow... But these differences of body and mind became less marked as their short generations passed, for the two peoples became much mingled by intermarriage and by the disasters of the War." PoME, Of Dwarves and Men.
Note that any physical comparison has vis a vis Elves and Men is dropped. The Hadorians are taller (and swifter) than other men (no mention of strength), both the Hadorians and Beorians are enhanced by association with the Eldar. But the differences are becoming less because of intermarriage (so the Hadorians are becoming smaller, dark hair more prominent). Note also the slight changes to skin, hair and eye colour. The Beorians are also no longer described as 'lithe and lean' but 'broader and heavier' (one of the footnotes has Beren (a Beorian) as 'broad shouldered and very strong of limb'.

From '77: [Hador's] people were of great strength, stature ready in mind, bold and steadfast, quick to anger and laughter, mighty among the Children of Illuvatar in the youth of Mankind. Yellow haired for the most part and blue-eyed... The Men of [Beor's] house were dark or brown of hair with grey eyes; and of all Men they were most like to the Noldor... for they were eager of mind, cunning handed, swift in understanding, long in memory, and they were moved sooner to pity than laughter. Like to them were the woodland folk of Haleth but they were of lesser stature, and less eager for lore." From the published Silmarillion (as edited by CT) Chapter 17, Of the Coming of Men.
Provided so that you can see some of the changes CT made to JRRT's writings and how he edited together various passages from different times to put together the published Silmarillion.

We can do something Similar for the Numenoreans.
ca. 36?: "For in Numenore a great people arose, in all things more like the First Kindred than other races of Men that have been, yet less fair and wise than they, though greater in body." LR, Fall of Numenor (first version).
ca. 36? and 40?: "...the people of Numenor grew great and glorious, in all things more like the Firstborn than any other races of Men that have been; yet less fair and wise than the Elves though greater in stature. For the Numenoreans were taller than even the tallest sons of Men in Middle-Earth." (Second Version (LR) and Third Version (SD)).
So these three versions have the Numenoreans being taller than the Elves (again a generic average) but do not say they are stronger.

ca. '46: "And the Numenoreans grew wise and fair and glorious, the mightiest of men that have been." SD, Drowning of Anadune (original, 2nd version lacks 'mightiest of men').
ca. '48?: "...in Numenor the Eruhildi became wise and fair and glorious, the mightiest of Men...". (3rd Version).
The later versions now drop the Numenoreans as being taller than the Eldar. But they are the mightiest of Men.

ca. 51: "Therefore the grew wise and glorious, and in all things more like the Firstborn than any other of the kindreds of Men; and they were tall, taller than the tallest sons of Middle-earth..." Akallabeth, Pub Sil. and PoME, History of the Akallabeth.
That the Numenoreans were greater in stature than the Eldar remains DROPPED in the final version. However they are taller than any Men of Middle-earth.

ca. '68: "They were called 'halflings'; but this refers to the normal hieght of men of Numenorean descent and of the Eldar (especially those of Noldorin descent, which appears to have been about 7 of our feet." PoME, Of Dwarves and Men.

Tar-Elenion--------------------- I will come with Fire and Sword, and put your cities to the Torch, your men to the Blade, your women and children in Chains</p>

jallanite · 07-26-2001, 04:30 PM

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Re: The Statures of Elves and Men: Changes

Beautiful work!

Of course part of the problem is that Tolkien is usually talking averages. Presumably there were always some Elves shorter than some Men, and some Men shorter than some Elves, and so forth.

And really what can you make of the "Quendi and Eldar" statement on the Sindar:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> In general the Sindar appear to have very closely resembled the Exiles, being dark-haired, strong and tall, but lithe.<hr></blockquote>"Strong and tall" compared to whom? The Nandor and the Avari. They were of the same origin and kin as the Noldor and Sindar. Perhaps Elves tended to dwindle or grow physically in their long years of life reflecting to some degree the power of their spirits, and so Noldor and Sindar had physically outgrown the other Elves. If so, JRRT does not mention such a thing.

Perhaps they are "strong and tall" compared to Men? Probably not particularly. Taller on the averge than the Bëorians and House of Haleth perhaps, and more equal to the Hadorians? Maybe that is all that is meant?

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000212>jallanit e</A> at: 7/26/01 6:31:02 pm

Tar Elenion · 07-26-2001, 05:29 PM

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Re: The Statures of Elves and Men: Changes

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Quote:
Beautiful work!
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Thank you. I did this last year for a debate at Tolkien Online, so it is probably not quite _on topic_ in some details, but close enough.

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Quote:
Of course part of the problem is that Tolkien is usually talking averages. Presumably there were always some Elves shorter than some Men, and some Men shorter than some Elves, and so forth.
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I agree, this is refering to averages.

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Quote:
And really what can you make of the "Quendi and Eldar" statement on the Sindar:
Quote:
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In general the Sindar appear to have very closely resembled the Exiles, being dark-haired, strong and tall, but lithe.
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My take on this is that the Sindar resemble the Noldor, but are not as strongly built, they are more lithe than the Noldor. This is in keeping with Numenorean Linear Measures in UT where it is noted that the 'Teleri were in general [an average

] somewhat less in build and stature than the Noldor'.

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Quote:
"Strong and tall" compared to whom? The Nandor and the Avari. They were of the same origin and kin as the Noldor and Sindar. Perhaps Elves tended to dwindle or grow physically in their long years of life reflecting to some degree the power of their spirits, and so Noldor and Sindar had physically outgrown the other Elves. If so, JRRT does not mention such a thing.
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The Noldor are noted for their height and strength from their beginning: "...and they [the fourth group of Quendi found] were tall and dark-haired and strong like fir trees, and from them most of the Noldor later were sprung."
Appendix to Quendi and Eldar (the Awakening Legend).
The other groups have no similar physical descriptions made.

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Perhaps they are "strong and tall" compared to Men? Probably not particularly.
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I would say probably yes. That is compared to Men (in general) on average.

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Taller on the averge than the Bëorians and House of Haleth perhaps, and more equal to the Hadorians? Maybe that is all that is meant?
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The way I interpret it is that the Hadorians were the tallest of the Edain (until they interbred and became less distinct) and rivalled the Noldor (on average). The Sindar and Beorians were shorter (on average) and perhaps more alike in height.

Tar-Elenion--------------------- I will come with Fire and Sword, and put your cities to the Torch, your men to the Blade, your women and children in Chains</p>

Galin · 02-26-2011, 10:04 PM

Just to add to Tar-Elenion's work here, something 'newer' revealed by Hammond and Scull...

Quote:

'The Quendi were in origin a tall people. The Eldar (...) they were in general the stronger and taller members of the Elvish folk at that time. In Eldarin tradition it was said that even their women were seldom less than six feet in height; their full-grown elfmen no less than six and a half feet, while some of the great kings and leaders were taller.'

JRRT, late manuscript, The Lord of the Rings Reader's Companion, Hammond and scull, p. 107

The Numenoreans...

Quote:

'... the Numenoreans before the Downfall were a people of great stature and strength, the Kings of men; their full grown men were commonly seven feet tall, especially in the royal and noble houses. In the North where men of other kinds were fewer and their race remained purer this stature remained more frequent, though in both Arnor and Gondor apart from mixture of race the Numenoreans showed a dwindling of height and of longevity in Middle-earth that became more marked as the Third Age passed. Aragorn, direct descendant of Elendil and his son Isildur, both of whom had been seven feet tall, must nonetheless have been a very tall man…, probably at least 6 ft. 6; and Boromir, of high Númenorean lineage, not much shorter (say 6 ft. 4).'

The problem is, I've no idea if these notes published by Hammond and Scull are earlier or later than the late statement from Of Dwarves And Men (in which the Eldar seem generally taller); and I'm not sure, so far, if there's any way to tell.

arathorn · 11-08-2014, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galin

Just to add to Tar-Elenion's work here, something 'newer' revealed by Hammond and Scull...

The Numenoreans...

The problem is, I've no idea if these notes published by Hammond and Scull are earlier or later than the late statement from Of Dwarves And Men (in which the Eldar seem generally taller); and I'm not sure, so far, if there's any way to tell.

Although we must not forget that both sentences can fit just fine if we consider that "seldom less" and "no less" indicate a minimum rather than average like you are suggesting .
Anyway I agree that sentence may have more than one interpretation but why should we care about the one it's conflicted if both are of late dates and the other can fit perfectly??

Galin · 11-09-2014, 09:33 AM

LOL! This again. Nor should we forget the interpretation that these ideas do not necessarily agree -- and need not necessarily agree, like other ideas and details also found in an author's draft texts. And speaking of forgetting, nor should we forget that with respect to late texts, Tolkien himself even noted that his memory was not retentive; noting that 'late texts', while seemingly written in the same general time frame, could still be written many months apart, or even years apart.

Quote:

Anyway I agree that sentence may have more than one interpretation but why should we care about the one it's conflicted if both are of late dates and the other can fit perfectly??

You don't have to care. No one has to care. But if the sentences in question do have more than one interpretation, as you agree to here... well then there you have it, you agree!

If anyone wants to care only about the interpretation that everything Tolkien wrote about this matter (everything that can be characterized as a 'late text' anyway) fits because it can be argued that it fits...

... then yes people are free to care only about that specific interpretation

arathorn · 11-09-2014, 10:13 AM

Well calm down Galin, I was just saying that there is another interpretation using other quote that make everything ok. I only said this because you didn't pointed out that there was another possibility and in my previous post I even said that there is more than one interpretation.
Now expecting you've calmed down I would like to ask why didn't Christopher ever mentioned that last quote?
And you should realize that the last quote kind of change years of believing about the similarities being given about Numenoreans and Noldor especially about their height(1951-68 or later) and you don't seem to care about that!! and like a Tolkien fan I think it's fine that you point out that there is others interpretations but the first thing you should do is to say the one that fits not the one that doesn't(in your posts you always treats both like contradiction and so I feel in the duty to point that that's not true).
Finally I would trust Christopher instead of Hammond any time.

07-26-2001, 04:11 PM	#1
Tar Elenion Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2000 Posts: 358	The Statures of Elves and Men: Changes <font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight Posts: 121</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Early 20's: "Men were almost of a stature at first with Elves, the fairies being far greater and Men smaller than now" From BoLT1. Very early conception when these 'Elves' were 'fairies' and not the Eldar of Tolkiens later conception, just very different and distant predecessors. ca. '26: "In early days Eldar and Men were of nearly equal stature and power of body... Men from the first though slightly bigger were more frail." SoME, Earliest Silmarillion, chapter 7. Note Men are only slightly bigger than the Elves. No difference is mentioned about power of body. The distinguishing elements of the Edainic house have not been introduced yet. ca. '30: "In early days Eldar and Men were of little different stature and bodily might; but the Eldar were blessed with greater skill, beauty and wit... More frail were men..." SoME, The Quenta, Chapter 7. Now Men and Elves are equivelent in height and strength the remark about Men being slightly bigger is dropped. Still no writings on the Edainic stature. ca. '37: "In those days Elves and Men were of like stature and strength of body.. More frail were Men." LR, Quenta Silmarillion, Chapter 7. (And also the '77 published Sil). The idea of Men being bigger remained dropped. (Note Elves and Men generic not specific, just as with the above posts, Eldar=Elves). But Edainic elements enter. ca. '37: "[Hador's] folk were yellow haired and blue-eyed for the most part... They were of greater strength and stature in body than the Elves... Like to them were the woodland folk of Haleth, but they were not so tall; their backs were broader their legs shorter and less swift... the people of Beor were dark or brown of hair; their eyes grey, and their faces fair to look upon...Their height was no greater than that of the Elves of that day, and they were most like to the Gnomes; for they were eager of mind, cunning handed, swift of understanding, long in memory." LR, Quenta Silmarillion, Chapter 10 Of Men and Dwarves. Hador's folk are greater in strenth and stature than Elves (generic/average); the Folk of Haleth are related to the Hadorians; the Beorians are no greater in height than the Elves (again generic), they are compared with the Gnomes (who are only now starting to become Noldor), in terms of mental abilities, and certain physical skills NOT in terms of actual physical atributes (height or strength). ca. '51: "The men of Beor were dark or brown of hair, but fair of face, with grey eyes; of shaply form, having courage and endurance, yet they were no greater in stature than the Eldar of that day. For the Noldor indeed were tall as are in the latter days men of great might and majesty. But the people of Hador were of yet greater strength and stature, mighty among the children of Eru, ready in mind bold and steadfast. Yellowhaired they were for the most part...Like unto them were th woodmen of Haleth, yet somewhat broader and less high." WotJ, Grey Annals, 422. Here it speaks of the Beorians being no greater in stature than the Eldar (generic including the Sindar, Nandor and Noldor). It then goes on to say that the Noldor (in general) are as tall as men of great might and majesty (specific) of later days (the Numenoreans were men of great might and majesty of later days). The Hadorian are of yet greater strength and stature, but is this comparing them to the Noldor? I think not. As with the other writings it is comparing them with the Beorians. The Noldor are distinguished by being as tall as later men of strength and majesty (such as Numenoreans are). The Halethians are still related to the Hadorians. ca. '58: "Many of [Hador's] people were like him golden-haired and blue-eyed; they were tall and strong, quick to wrath and laughter, fierce in resolve, fast in loyalty, joyous in heart, the children of Illuvatar in the youth of Mankind. But the people of the House of Beor were dark or brown of hair; their eyes were grey and keen and their faces fair and shapely. Lithe and lean in body they were long-enduring in hardship. Of all men they were most like the Noldor and most loved by them; for they were eager of mind, cunning handed, swift in understanding, long in memory... Like to them were the woodland folk of Haleth; but they were shorter and broader, sterner and less swift." WotJ, Later Quenta Silmarillion, Chapter 14, Of the Coming of Men. Now it becomes clear that the height and strength comparison is between the Hadorians and Beorians (or if not it was dropped). Again the Beorians are generally less in stature and strength than the Hadorians, but note here they are 'lithe and lean in body'. The comparison btween the Noldor and Beorians is again not physical attributes, but skills of mind and body. The Folk of Haleth are now being related to the Beorians. ca. '68: "For the most part [the Folk of Hador] were a tall people, with flaxen or golden hair and blue-grey eyes, but there were not a few among them that had dark hair though all were fair skinned... There were fair-haired men and women among the Folk of Beor, but most had brown hair (going usually with brown eyes), and many were less fair in skin some indeed being swarthy. Men as tall as the folk of Hador were rare among them, and most were broader and more heavy in build. In association with the Eldar... they became as enhanced in arts and manners as the folk of Hador, but if these surpassed them in swiftness of mind and body, in daring and noble generosity, the Folk of Beor were more steadfast in endurance of hardship and sorrow... But these differences of body and mind became less marked as their short generations passed, for the two peoples became much mingled by intermarriage and by the disasters of the War." PoME, Of Dwarves and Men. Note that any physical comparison has vis a vis Elves and Men is dropped. The Hadorians are taller (and swifter) than other men (no mention of strength), both the Hadorians and Beorians are enhanced by association with the Eldar. But the differences are becoming less because of intermarriage (so the Hadorians are becoming smaller, dark hair more prominent). Note also the slight changes to skin, hair and eye colour. The Beorians are also no longer described as 'lithe and lean' but 'broader and heavier' (one of the footnotes has Beren (a Beorian) as 'broad shouldered and very strong of limb'. From '77: [Hador's] people were of great strength, stature ready in mind, bold and steadfast, quick to anger and laughter, mighty among the Children of Illuvatar in the youth of Mankind. Yellow haired for the most part and blue-eyed... The Men of [Beor's] house were dark or brown of hair with grey eyes; and of all Men they were most like to the Noldor... for they were eager of mind, cunning handed, swift in understanding, long in memory, and they were moved sooner to pity than laughter. Like to them were the woodland folk of Haleth but they were of lesser stature, and less eager for lore." From the published Silmarillion (as edited by CT) Chapter 17, Of the Coming of Men. Provided so that you can see some of the changes CT made to JRRT's writings and how he edited together various passages from different times to put together the published Silmarillion. We can do something Similar for the Numenoreans. ca. 36?: "For in Numenore a great people arose, in all things more like the First Kindred than other races of Men that have been, yet less fair and wise than they, though greater in body." LR, Fall of Numenor (first version). ca. 36? and 40?: "...the people of Numenor grew great and glorious, in all things more like the Firstborn than any other races of Men that have been; yet less fair and wise than the Elves though greater in stature. For the Numenoreans were taller than even the tallest sons of Men in Middle-Earth." (Second Version (LR) and Third Version (SD)). So these three versions have the Numenoreans being taller than the Elves (again a generic average) but do not say they are stronger. ca. '46: "And the Numenoreans grew wise and fair and glorious, the mightiest of men that have been." SD, Drowning of Anadune (original, 2nd version lacks 'mightiest of men'). ca. '48?: "...in Numenor the Eruhildi became wise and fair and glorious, the mightiest of Men...". (3rd Version). The later versions now drop the Numenoreans as being taller than the Eldar. But they are the mightiest of Men. ca. 51: "Therefore the grew wise and glorious, and in all things more like the Firstborn than any other of the kindreds of Men; and they were tall, taller than the tallest sons of Middle-earth..." Akallabeth, Pub Sil. and PoME, History of the Akallabeth. That the Numenoreans were greater in stature than the Eldar remains DROPPED in the final version. However they are taller than any Men of Middle-earth. ca. '68: "They were called 'halflings'; but this refers to the normal hieght of men of Numenorean descent and of the Eldar (especially those of Noldorin descent, which appears to have been about 7 of our feet." PoME, Of Dwarves and Men. Tar-Elenion--------------------- I will come with Fire and Sword, and put your cities to the Torch, your men to the Blade, your women and children in Chains</p> __________________ Tar-Elenion

07-26-2001, 05:29 PM	#3
Tar Elenion Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2000 Posts: 358	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight Posts: 122</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: The Statures of Elves and Men: Changes -------------------- Quote: Beautiful work! --------------------- Thank you. I did this last year for a debate at Tolkien Online, so it is probably not quite _on topic_ in some details, but close enough. -------------------------- Quote: Of course part of the problem is that Tolkien is usually talking averages. Presumably there were always some Elves shorter than some Men, and some Men shorter than some Elves, and so forth. --------------------------- I agree, this is refering to averages. ----------------------- Quote: And really what can you make of the "Quendi and Eldar" statement on the Sindar: Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In general the Sindar appear to have very closely resembled the Exiles, being dark-haired, strong and tall, but lithe. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------- My take on this is that the Sindar resemble the Noldor, but are not as strongly built, they are more lithe than the Noldor. This is in keeping with Numenorean Linear Measures in UT where it is noted that the 'Teleri were in general [an average ] somewhat less in build and stature than the Noldor'. ------------- Quote: "Strong and tall" compared to whom? The Nandor and the Avari. They were of the same origin and kin as the Noldor and Sindar. Perhaps Elves tended to dwindle or grow physically in their long years of life reflecting to some degree the power of their spirits, and so Noldor and Sindar had physically outgrown the other Elves. If so, JRRT does not mention such a thing. ------------------ The Noldor are noted for their height and strength from their beginning: "...and they [the fourth group of Quendi found] were tall and dark-haired and strong like fir trees, and from them most of the Noldor later were sprung." Appendix to Quendi and Eldar (the Awakening Legend). The other groups have no similar physical descriptions made. -------------------- Quote: Perhaps they are "strong and tall" compared to Men? Probably not particularly. -------------------------- I would say probably yes. That is compared to Men (in general) on average. ----------------------- Quote: Taller on the averge than the Bëorians and House of Haleth perhaps, and more equal to the Hadorians? Maybe that is all that is meant? ---------------------- The way I interpret it is that the Hadorians were the tallest of the Edain (until they interbred and became less distinct) and rivalled the Noldor (on average). The Sindar and Beorians were shorter (on average) and perhaps more alike in height. Tar-Elenion--------------------- I will come with Fire and Sword, and put your cities to the Torch, your men to the Blade, your women and children in Chains</p> __________________ Tar-Elenion

07-26-2001, 04:30 PM	#2
jallanite Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Toronto Posts: 479	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Moderator Posts: 53</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: The Statures of Elves and Men: Changes Beautiful work! Of course part of the problem is that Tolkien is usually talking averages. Presumably there were always some Elves shorter than some Men, and some Men shorter than some Elves, and so forth. And really what can you make of the "Quendi and Eldar" statement on the Sindar:<blockquote>*Quote:<hr> In general the Sindar appear to have very closely resembled the Exiles, being dark-haired, strong and tall, but lithe.<hr></blockquote>"Strong and tall" compared to whom? The Nandor and the Avari. They were of the same origin and kin as the Noldor and Sindar. Perhaps Elves tended to dwindle or grow physically in their long years of life reflecting to some degree the power of their spirits, and so Noldor and Sindar had physically outgrown the other Elves. If so, JRRT does not mention such a thing. Perhaps they are "strong and tall" compared to Men? Probably not particularly. Taller on the averge than the Bëorians and House of Haleth perhaps, and more equal to the Hadorians? Maybe that is all that is meant? </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000212>jallanit e</A> at: 7/26/01 6:31:02 pm*

11-09-2014, 10:13 AM	#7
arathorn Animated Skeleton Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 45	Well calm down Galin, I was just saying that there is another interpretation using other quote that make everything ok. I only said this because you didn't pointed out that there was another possibility and in my previous post I even said that there is more than one interpretation. Now expecting you've calmed down I would like to ask why didn't Christopher ever mentioned that last quote? And you should realize that the last quote kind of change years of believing about the similarities being given about Numenoreans and Noldor especially about their height(1951-68 or later) and you don't seem to care about that!! and like a Tolkien fan I think it's fine that you point out that there is others interpretations but the first thing you should do is to say the one that fits not the one that doesn't(in your posts you always treats both like contradiction and so I feel in the duty to point that that's not true). Finally I would trust Christopher instead of Hammond any time.