Women vs. desire of the ring

[Ten'oio]

Have many women ever really desired the ring? It seems as if the desire is found mainly in the heart of men.

[The Saucepan Man]

Galadriel was tempted but passed the test. Otherwise, I don't really think that the Ring really had any opportunity to try working its powers on any female characters.

It might be argued that men are generally more hungry for power, and so less resistant to the Ring's wiles. But the Ring doesn't just promise power. It uses whatever is in the hearts of those it is trying to tempt. For example, in Sam's struggle with the Ring, it tries to use his desire to help Frodo.

So, I see no reason why women shouldn't be just as vulnerable to it as men.

[Ten'oio]

Thanx. Women seem to also represent the good of middle earth, rather than the evil which men seem to succumb to quite often. That's just what I got out of Tolkiens work.

[hobbitlass]

Along the lines that in the story there just wasn't very many women in it to begin with let alone come across the ring to be tempted by it.
As much as I would love to say that women rule(!), I think they would be just as easily tempted and corrupted by it.

[Birdland]

I'm sure women of power would have been equally tempted, but think about it: The Ring went from Isildur to the river, to Smeagol, to Bilbo, then Frodo, Tom Bombadil, and finally Sam. So in it's entire existence it was only touched by five people, (and one enigma). And four of those people were Hobbits!

So we really never actually get a chance to see what kind of effect it would have on most people, or what they could do with it. It's reputation amongst the wise, both male and female, apparently preceded it, and most were too afraid to even take it for a test drive. Thank goodness.

Hmmmm. I feel a topic coming on...

[Gorwingel]

Yeah really the only woman of power (or only woman period) that came in contact with it was Galadriel, and we could tell that she was tempted by it. I guess you could not really draw any conclusions on how it affected women just from her, though I think it would (all that power, I think I would be tempted by it, even though I would not want to be)

[Amarinth]

great thread!

yeah i agree with gorwingel and birdie, we can't draw conclusions with one test case. more than that, had galadriel been much younger, or had she been offered such a weapon of power at the time when she was enamored of power enough to risk banishment along with feanor and the noldor, it could be quite a different story. as it was, i guess after two ages of loss, grief and "the long defeat", it was a very mature (or more appropriately, ancient) and wiser galadriel who had to take that test. well, we women learn our lessons, that i grant you (",)

[Jellinek]

So in it's entire existence it was only touched by five people, (and one enigma).

hmm.. and a certain Maia...

[HCIsland]

I've got to find exact quotes, but I'm pretty sure some of the stuff in Unfinished Tales strongly suggests that Galadriel greatly desired the Ring and if it had come to her earlier, she would have likely taken it. Like I've said, I'll have to find the quotes.

H.C.

[Melkor89]

There is a simple reason why more men were tempted by the ring than woman. In the whole trilogy, the only woman exposed to the ring was Galadriel, who was tempted by the ring's power. All others tempted were men simply because, excepting Galadriel, only men were exposed to the ring. It has nothing to do with the gender of the characters. it is merely random. [img]smilies/redface.gif[/img]

[Rumil]

I bet Queen Beruthiel would have jumped at the chance of getting the ring!

[The Saucepan Man]

So in it's entire existence it was only touched by five people, (and one enigma).

hmm.. and a certain Maia...

Two Maia touched the Ring - Sauron and Gandalf.

[greyhavener]

I suspect if confronted with the ring Eowyn might have reacted somewhat like Boromir: tempted to use it for her own agenda, acting impulsively, emotionally, yet in the end choosing against evil.

[Elfstone]

I think Galadriel resisting the temptation of the Ring is a bit overrated. If the council decided that the Ring would be hidden in Lorien she would have succumbed to it eventually. That's why Elrond knew hiding it anywhere would never work.

The elves in general just seem to be more resistant to it's lure. Elrond didn't try to take it from Isildur and he didn't try to take it at the council, although if he advised that it be hidden in Imladris his word would probably been accepted. Glorfindel/Arwen didn't try to take it when they encountered Frodo on the way to Rivendell and they knew he had it. Celeborn certainly knew he had it and didn't try to take it. Any of these people could have taken it by force from Frodo but didn't. And I'm betting that if Frodo offered it freely to any one of them they would have refused. At least at first. It doesn't corrupt you in a day. Even Boromir, the weakest and most needful of the bunch, took months before he finally succumbed.

I guess my opinion of women in general would be that just like any male they would fall eventually. No one could resist forever, and even Gandalf benefitted from having the Ring seperated from his presence.

[Aerandir Carnesir]

I agree with the people who said that Galadriel was the only woman exposed and tempted by the ring, hence the only woman with the desire to have the ring. The reason I think that men were the ones who desired power, at least Boromir and Faramir, etc., Is they wanted to use the ring to do good. That is why they wanted power, to save Gondor. And Sam used the ring to help Frodo in Mordor. The case with Sauroman at least, he wanted the ring for his own power, But "There is only one lord of the rings, and he does not share power!!!"-Gandalf. But you do know that not all the men wanted the power. Gandalf refused the ring because he was wise and knew what it would do, and I think a wizard doesn't need any more power than he already has. Tom Bombadil didn't take the ring for his own because he had an immunity to it. Even Aragorn, he swore a promise to Frodo that he would protect him. Legolas, Gimli, they had better things to do. Merry and Pippin were too busy worrying about food and pipe weed and everything a hobbit should like. Elrond was a wise old elf who was there with Isildur in mount doom, so he didn't want anything to do with the ring. So, in fact, not too many men desired the ring either, but there were more men exposed to it than women. And everyone was tempted, just a few let that temptation turn into desire. If more women had been exposed to the ring's power, I think that it would have been quite even. The nature of humans is the same for each gender. I'm not sure about elves and dwarves though.

Also, remember that Tolkein lived in a different time. In the 1950s when he wrote the LotR, men were the workers and the soldiers, and women were those stay at home Housewives playing bridge together and watching soaps on the kitchen T.V. The whole deal with Hitler in the 30s and 40s and his desire for power really impacted the future world. Maybe Tolkein's writings reflected the state of the world at that time. The men desiering power and fighting and ruling, and the women working as nurses and such. Eowyn could have symbolized the femenist movement, but that might not be accurate. I think that if Tolkein had written LotR today, it would be much more "equal rights" or "politically correct".
The ring didn't care who it corrupted, male or famale. There just wern't many women it could have corrupted.
And also, I read that the ring was Smeagol's grandmother's, but I'm not sure if that's right.
I agree with Ten'oio 1000%. The men did desire power more than women, just that's the way Tolkein wrote it. It's best not to ponder these things too deeply. We'll all get headaches.

[ February 07, 2003: Message edited by: Aerandir Carnesir ]

[Elfstone]

The ring didn't care who it corrupted, male or famale. There just wern't (m)any women it could have corrupted.

Totally agreed.

[Ten'oio]

Thanx for the reply Aerandir!
That really gave me some new insight, and I totally agree with you. Not many women came into contact with the ring, and I must have overlooked that [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Although, I don't see how women would find time to play bridge and watch soaps...uhh...during war. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[ February 07, 2003: Message edited by: Ten'oio ]

[Maikadilwen]

It doesn't corrupt you in a day. Even Boromir, the weakest and most needful of the bunch, took months before he finally succumbed.

And yet did it turn Smeagol into a murderer in one day.

[Arvedui III]

Maybe the Ring has a stronger influence on certain races? Stoors falling imediatly then men. Or maybe the Ring had stronger power when Smeagul found it? It had been lieing on a riverbed for 2,000 years, so maybe it was hoarding seductiveness, even though that's very unlikly. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Kalimac]

Aerandir, Smeagol's grandmother never actually saw the Ring as far as we know; he told the story later on that she had given it to him as a present, but that was just a cover for the truth, which was that Deagol had found it and Smeagol had murdered him. Incidentally the grandmother is described as "a matriarch, a great person in her way" so there's another addition to the list of wise and benevolent Tolkien females.

Incidentally, Tolkien does not seem to have been much of a feminist - I doubt that the story would be much different if he wrote it today. Traditionally men have been the ones to go out and fight etc, and the women have been the ones to do the more domestic stuff; raise the kids, keep the home fires burning. I don't think it had much to do with WWII, though, this sort of thing had been going on for millennia. Hitler indeed tried to give it a rush with his credo of "Kinder, Kirche, Kueche" but I doubt that that or WWII had any particular effect on Tolkien's writings as they relate to women. The point he may have been trying to make with Eowyn was that she was an exception, the same way historically there have always been exceptions to the warrior/wife pattern - Boadicea, Joan of Arc, the women in 18th century wars who disguised themselves as men to become soldiers. Their situations were anomalous, and it was a mark of their special bravery that they were able to do what they felt they were called to despite the strictures of their society. Eowyn's situation is so untenable simply because there is no real place for her in the society she lives in, and her part of the story is about how she creates that place for herself. If Tolkien were writing LOTR now and decided to create a whole squadron of warrior-women of Rohan, Eowyn's conflicts - and thus her story - would vanish; and LOTR would be the poorer for it.

OK, sorry about the diversion. As for whether women could have been tempted by the Ring equally - I'd have to say that being mortal and fallible as men, that they would be equally tempted, though as has been pointed out, there's so little contact between women and the Ring in Tolkien that this is pure conjecture. And for some reason, I can't shake this picture of Rosie Cotton, for example, just laughing at "Rosie the Strong" visions and maybe even throwing the thing away...but of course, that would have made things much worse in the end.

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

The quote from UT HCIsland mentioned regarding Galadriel

It was not until two long ages more had past, when at last all that she had desired in her youth come to her hand, the Ring of Power and the dominion of Middle-earth of which she had dreamed, that her wisdom was full grown and she rejected it, and passing the last test departed from Middle-earth forever.

Also note later in the section this passage turns up:

And when he at length (Celebrimbor) discovered the existence of the One Ring he
revolted against Sauron, and went to Lorinand to take counsel once more with Galadriel. They should have destroyed all the Rings of Power at this time, “but failed to find the strength.” Galadriel counseled him that the Three Rings of the Elves should be hidden, never used, dispersed, far from Eregion where Sauron believed them to be. It was at that time that she received Nenya, the White Ring, from Celebrimbor, and by its power the realm of Lorinand was strengthened and made beautiful; but its power upon her was great also and unforeseen, for it increased her latent desire for the Sea and for return to the West, so that her joy in Middle-earth was diminished.

[ February 08, 2003: Message edited by: Hilde Bracegirdle ]

[Birdland]

Two Maia touched the Ring - Sauron and Gandalf.

Saucepan Man - I got to disagree with you on that. Though it is a little unclear, in "Shadows of the Past", Gandalf asks for the Ring, and Frodo hands it to him on its chain. He throws it in the fire, then removes it with a pair of fireplace tongs...Whoops. Hey, Wait a minute! You are right!

[Gandalf] stooped and removed the ring to the hearth with the tongs, and at once picked it up.

Well I'll be ding-donged. Gandalf touched the Ring! [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

Considering the various sources of inspiration for LOTR/Silmarillion, a couple of possibilities come to mind:

(1) In most mythology and ancient Celtic time, women are generally seen as being closer to the earth, representing earth (earth = mother). If you consider that the Ring had absolutely no effect on Tom Bombadil, except to amuse him ;o), it would be a logical inference that those with close connections to the rhythms and energies of the earth are not particularly aroused by desire for such things. Also, Tolkien, being a devout Catholic, may have thought it unseemly for the significant females in his tales to lust for power.

[As I write, it occurs to me that perhaps the heart of the question in this thread, is why did no female character ever possess--instead of want--the Ring?]

(2) Reflecting on my current level of scholarship re The Silmarillion, the notions of female = earth & reverence for Virgin Mary, are consistent. It was Feanor and his brothers--the males--who went nuts, plunging whole peoples into kin strife and slaying over the Simarils. I can't recall a female desiring them for anything other than Luthien, and it was to aid Beren that she went in search of them. However, I am unfamiliar with Beruthien (sp? can't recall the name exactly) mentioned a few posts ago..

and ... I'm ding-donged, too! I righteously reached for the nearest copy of LOTR and looked it up--Gandalf actually held the Ring after Frodo handed it to him for a brief moment before tossing it into the fire at Bag End. I'd never registered that in this context before, and that's why I have become an avid fan of message boards such as this.

[ February 08, 2003: Message edited by: Fain Clawmirth ]

I just looked up Beruthiel. (Gosh, why did Tarannon ever hook up with her?) If I read the note in Unfinished Tales correctly, Beruthiel might be Tolkien's nod to the Wicked Queen archetype. He was wise enough to know that all of anything on earth is either good or bad, so we have a "bad" female.

You know, as I was looking her up, I bet myself she had to be the wife of a human king. I just couldn't picture an elf or other non-human female really wanting the Ring. Even Ungoliant & Shelob were beyond such things!

Sorry--last post on this topic from me tonight ...

I meant to say that Tolkien was wise enough to all of anything on earth is neitherall good nor all bad instead of "all of anything on earth is either good or bad."

My bad ...

[Elfstone]

And yet did it turn Smeagol into a murderer in one day.

Valid point. But I would contend that of all the characters that knowingly came into contact with the Ring after Isildur, only Smeagol was ripe for instant corruption. If we look at Bilbo, Thorin and Co., Gandalf, Frodo, Sam, Merry, Pippin, Fatty, Bombadil, Aragorn, Elrond and Co, the rest of the Fellowship, Galadriel and Celeborn, every one of them are "good" people. Some more resistant (the Halflings), some less so (Boromir), but not a one whose intentions towards others is called into question.

Not so with Smeagol. He is an unsavory character. His own people ran him off. But Bilbo and Frodo both possessed the Ring for many, many years in the Shire without it seducing them to evil. It strikes me that killing Deagol in order to rob him of the Ring isn't a far leap for Smeagol, the way it would have been for Frodo to kill Bilbo and take it.

[Lush]

Even Ungoliant & Shelob were beyond such things!

They weren't women though, they were evil spiders. The fact that they were female evil spiders was significant, of course, but in a different context. I mean, if you want to talk about Ungoliant and Shelob on the same intellectual level as Beruthiel, you might as well talk about Shadowfax on the same intellectual level as Gandalf.

[Rochelle]

Oh but I think Shadowfax has more to him then a pretty white coat. Perhaps if given the chance he could stand in the middle of a bridge yelling "You can not pass!" *lol* sorry...

They weren't women though, they were evil spiders. The fact that they were female evil spiders was significant, of course, but in a different context.

This is a distinction I was trying to imply--the concept of female vs. the concept of woman. My level of scholarship may not be expert enough, but I do not recall female elves ever referred to as "women"--in fact, now that I'm thinking of it, while the word itself must surely occur, my subjective memory cannot recall Tolkien ever using "woman." I'm not sure I would call Galadriel or Arwen "women."

At any rate, I think that the question about gender sex & temptation is on the more fundamental level of female/male more than man/woman.

[Yavanna Kementari]

Hmm, Very interesting thread!! I like it. A real thinker.
I wonder what Melain would have been capable of if she were tempted by the One?
But I think Melain was too wise to take it had she the chance.

Galadriel wrestled with it in her heart. But she passed the test.

When they say the hearts of men are wicked, I believe they are saying the 'race' of men, and not just MEN in general.

I think IF ( and thats a pretty big if)Eowyn would try to use the ring,she would doit from a will to do good but it would only deviate evil in her.
I am not sure she would do it though, because she saw first handedly what evil advice does to a man (Theoden).

Very good thought!! I will watch this with great interest! Thank you for your time.
-(~<~> Yavanna

[Purple Monkey]

And yet did it turn Smeagol into a murderer in one day.

Hardly over a couple of minutes, actually. This is a great thread, don't let it die. I'd say, (at the risk of being more than a little repetitive of others) that it could have easily corrupted any woman that came close enough to it. There's not much of a difference, really, is there? It depends on the individual. Eowyn would have been more tempted than a 'normal' woman, say.

I am waiting for the time to read the book of Tolkien's letters which, just glancing through it, is a mithril mine of understanding just about every aspect of LOTR/Silmarillion you can think of.

According to my current understanding of the books I've read, I'd have to agree with those above who've said that there simply weren't enough women who came near the Ring to enable us to do much more than make the most meager of guesses. My guess ;o) would be that this is due to the fact that women were not featured all that much in the Norse legends/myths Tolkien used as a springboard for LOTR/Silmarillion.

On the other hand ... it is so much fun to go ahead and conjecture away on this question! [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

I still hold to my notion about female/male vs. woman/man. I am betting that The Letters of JRR Tolkien will tell us that he was more concerned with the essential nature of female and male expressed in relationship with the earth, Iluvatar/God/Love rather than man-woman relationships or gender roles. "Female" is immediately a much deeper concept that more than people. One example is the concept of female and male in relation to nature.

Following this line of thought, what would the female relationship to the Ring be compared and contrasted to the male relationship? I am thinking that the female's would be one of relative disinterest as archetypal female energy is involved, or interested if you will, with the flow of energy, of growth/seasonal patterns. It is more passive in the sense that it is in harmony with the earth--nothing wimpy, just not interested in hunting, acquiring, controlling. Male energy is associated more with domination and therefore more prone to be susceptible to the lure of power in the Ring. Female is associated more with submission to a higher power (nature) recognizing the wisdom of cooperation. This makes them less susceptible to something whose sole purpose is to disrupt harmony, flow, and submission to a higher power.

What's interesting is to analyze the actions and relationships of females and male characters (and that would include Treebeard, Shelob, orcs) regardng power, control, domination, passivity, harmony, etc.

And, please don't misinterpret my use of the word "passive." Any student of the martial arts, the Tao, Buddhism, and Jesus knows the power of passive, which is far superior to force in the long run.

Peace to my brothers and sisters everywhere in the midst of the current flowering of insanity around us.

But your all still forgetting one character who also toched the ring. Dmeagol (sp) He had the ring right before Gollum killed him.

[Lush]

Have any of you ever wondered what the Ring represents in a slightly more Freudian (yeah, I know, we're all sick of Freud at this point, but please don't stop reading) context?

The Ring itself is an object that men are more liable to be attracted to than women, because it has a female quality to it. Keep in mind that Galadriel, the only female seriously tempted by the Ring, possessed a lot of male qualities. The way Tolkien described her reminded me of the way that F. Scott Fitzgerald described Miss Baker in The Great Gatsby.

There was once a great discussion on the symbolism behind the Ring itself on this forum. I've struggled to find the link for some time. I'll keep struggling when I come back from lunch, if nobody else finds it before me.

[Mister Underhill]

If I'm not mistaken, Lush refers to The One Ring?, one of my fondest threads from the Elder Days of the Downs.

[Lush]

Mistah Underhill is not mistaken in the least. Everyone interested in the topic and willing to broaden their horizons absolutely needs to read the thread he is referring to.

[The Only Real Estel]

The Ring itself is an object that men are more liable to be attracted to than women, because it has a female quality to it. Keep in mind that Galadriel, the only female seriously tempted by the Ring, possessed a lot of male qualities.

Another reason why it attracts men to it perhaps more than women is because it symbolizes, & promises, power. I think we'd all agree that men are drawn more to the prospect of power than women are? Or at least that's what I think. [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]

[Lord of Angmar]

men are drawn more to the prospect of power than women are

I could not agree more. That's why we men always buy power tools and sports equipment that we are never going to use. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

I think that, as has been said earlier, the main reason the Ring had less of an effect on women as a whole was because Professor Tolkien did not have many prominent women in his book, and fewer still who actually came into contact with the Ring. I think that, had a woman found the Ring, it would probably have affected her similarly as it did with Galadriel and all of the males who came in contact with it.

Thanks for the link to the old thread, Underhill and Lush. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] It is quite a good read.

Cheers!
-Angmar

[Meneltarmacil]

I just couldn't picture an elf or other non-human female really wanting the Ring.

And my answer is...

In place of a Dark Lord, you will have a QUEEN! Not dark, but beautiful and terrible as a storm!...etc., etc.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Hmmm, I seem to have been in one of my two long periods of absentia at the time this thread was active. I would have liked to have participated in it.

If I may add a small, speculative suggestion to this thread, since there doesn't seem to be much left in it; remember that Sauron himself was male, in mind and spirit. The power it subsisted upon, was created with and was driven by was his, and therefore would have probably principally attracted/interested those in some way similar to himself to it -- mainly the powerful and the Wise -- as it was Sauron, obviously himself a figure like himself, who concieved of, used and desired the Ring in the first place.

Of course, by similar I do not mean bent on world domination and the spreading of corruption and evil. What I mean is powerful, grim, confident able to be self-counselled, and plan. Obviously Smeagol was not powerful, but he was the latters.

What I am driving at, in conclusion, is that this type of figure is in fact more likely to be male than female.