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Old 07-05-2005, 07:23 PM   #1
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The Eye The return of Sauron

Just a curious idea that struck me. Does anybody think there could be a sequel to the LOTR with the return of Sauron? Could he yet be resurrected, like Gandalf was? As Gandalf said, the shadow always takes shape again after a defeat, paving the way for an unlikely yet possible comback for either Melkor or Sauron perhaps?

The reason I bring this up is because I cannot see how ME would just go on being ruled in peace (after the fall of mordor) forever. Old nemesises either return, or new ones emerge. So how would ME be subject to a serious threat again?
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Old 07-05-2005, 07:48 PM   #2
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Gandalf answered this for us.

Quote:
Concerning this thing, my lords, you now
all know enough for the understanding of our plight, and of Sauron's. If he
regains it, your valour is vain, and his victory will be swift and complete: so
complete that none can foresee the end of it while this world lasts. If it is
destroyed, then he will fall; and his fall will be so low that none can foresee
his arising ever again. For he will lose the best part of the strength that was
native to him in his beginning, and all that was made or begun with that power
will crumble, and he will be maimed for ever, becoming a mere spirit of malice
that gnaws itself in the shadows, but cannot again grow or take shape. And so a
great evil of this world will be removed.


Other evils there are that may come; for Sauron is himself but a
servant or emissary.
So no I don't see that Sauron will ever rise again. But other evils exist in Middle-earth that may arise what they are I do not know or speculate.
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Old 07-06-2005, 08:50 AM   #3
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The Eye

So what may be the new evils that could arise? A hidden shadow, like a Balrog of Morgoth perhaps? What about the lost secrets behind the making of the Rings of Power? That said, I can't see why Eru would send Saruman the traitor back!
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Old 07-06-2005, 11:39 AM   #4
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Quote:
So what may be the new evils that could arise?
Have you read Histories of Middle-Earth? In Volume 12, I think, there is a kind of a sequel to LotR called The New Shadow. It is set in the 4th age and it tells about some evil men and orc admirers. Anyway, Tolkien ended up abandoning the idea of making a book about a new evil of which I'm quite glad.

Here's what Tolkien said about the story: "I did begin a story placed about 100 years after the downfall of Sauron, but it proved both sinister and depressing. Since we are dealing with Men it is inevitable that we should be concerned with the most regrettable feature of their nature: their quick satiety with good. So that the people of Gondor in times of peace and justice and prosperity would become discontented and restless - while the dynasts descended from Aragorn would become just kings and governors - like Denethor or worse. I found that even so there was an outcrop of revolutionary plots, about a centre of secret Satanistic religion; while Gondorian boys were playing at being Orcs and going around doing damage. I could have written a 'thriller' about the plot and its discovery and overthrow - but it would be just that. Not worth doing."

You can read The New Shadow here.
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Old 07-06-2005, 11:59 AM   #5
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Probably not Sauron, but I've always been intrigued by the fate of the WK:

Quote:
'Eowyn! Eowyn!' cried Merry. Then tottering, struggling up, with her last strength she drove her sword between crown and mantle, as the great shoulders bowed before her. The sword broke sparkling into many shards. The crown rolled away with a clang. Eowyn fell forward upon her fallen foe. But lo! the mantle and hauberk were empty. Shapeless they lay now on the ground, torn and tumbled; and a cry went up into the shuddering air, and faded to a shrill wailing, passing with the wind, a voice bodiless and thin that died, and was swallowed up and was never heard again in that age of this world.
Should this be taken to mean that he was heard again in a later age?
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Old 07-06-2005, 12:05 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by davem
Probably not Sauron, but I've always been intrigued by the fate of the WK:



Should this be taken to mean that he was heard again in a later age?
I wouldn't say that it should be taken to mean that he will appear later on. I think it opens the possibility of a return though I don't agree that it would happen. I was under the impression that all the wraiths power was due to the ring and Sauron and with their destruction the wraiths were destroyed too. Perhaps they live still as servants of the shadow of Sauron but even a lesser shadown than he.
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Old 07-06-2005, 12:37 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by davem
Should this be taken to mean that he was heard again in a later age?
The text may be referring to an appearance in the last battle, the Dagor Dagorath - if Morgoth gets to come back, then why not Sauron and subsequently why not the Witch-King?

Or it was referring to the PJ movies...not sure .
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Old 07-06-2005, 03:34 PM   #8
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Dark-Eye

I think Tolkien must have thought long and hard about how to stir up disorder in ME again, or for a new (or old) enemy to arise. In the end he probably thought that he would end up with a much poorer version of parts of LOTR.

Still, the idea behind the lost secrets of the Rings of Power being studied again by a lord of Gondor, or the appearance of another hidden Balrog, disturbed from his rest, could be good starters. the WK making a dramatic return in another but lesser form would be interesting.

Or is THIS ALL wishful thinking?
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Old 07-06-2005, 03:42 PM   #9
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White-Hand

If if there were more Balrog's (which is possible) I don't see them as that great of a threat as say Sauron or Melkor were. They cannot lead their minions. Their power is much more limited so to speak.
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Old 07-06-2005, 03:48 PM   #10
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Maybe some of the men of ME would turn to evil, and worship a Balrog as their lord?
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Old 07-06-2005, 11:00 PM   #11
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I've always thought that an interesting sequel would be the Blue Wizards coming back from the East, leading the Easterlings and Southrons to wage war on Gondor again. I've always been fascinated by the Blue Wizards, and the lack of information about them. Bringing them in as main characters/evil lords would be pretty cool.
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Old 07-07-2005, 12:06 AM   #12
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Melkor again

If my memory serves me well, Melkor was able to either evade capture by the other Valar, or manage to worm out of it in the end. He was the most powerful among the Valar in the beginning, who is to say that in his thousands of years confinement he was not able to find a way out of his prison, or if he was imprisoned in a void as for some reason my memory is telling me, who is to say he is not or was not able to utilize the energy of his prison to make himself stronger and break free?
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Old 07-07-2005, 08:55 AM   #13
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He was not really placed into a void, but into The Void. Meaning he was banned from Arda and could no longer enter the circle of the world. He was out beyond the sky, the sun, the stars, even outside time. As far as what kept him out there... it was probably the will of Iluvatar.
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Old 07-08-2005, 09:01 AM   #14
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Here's a thought. I believe it's said that some of the houses of the dwarves were
at least partially "evil", or had trends so, and that some fought for Sauron in the War of the Last Alliance. What if those houses, abetted by their fear of
long-term diminishment and extinction in Middle-earth, sought to take over Kazad-dum and then, perhaps allied with ents gone bad and/or Easterlings, to
"revenge" "harms" done to dwarves by elves by taking the Grey Havens and Rivendell to prevent elves leaving safely Middle-earth. With a possible dwarf
civil war ensuing by the dwarves with good relations with hobbits and elves opposing them?
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Old 07-08-2005, 09:11 AM   #15
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I think most of the elves would have long departed from ME for there to be a civil war. As for eveil Dwarves, they were probably be in the minority.
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Old 07-08-2005, 09:39 AM   #16
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The problem with the majority of these theories is the lack of a central evil figure. Melkor: obviously very powerful and evil as is Sauron. To make anything interesting we would need some very powerful being as the arch-enemy to good. A dwarven rebellion would be an interesting chapter but that's all I can see of it. A Balrog simply isn't a sufficient leader to have minions follow him. Their power isn't nearly equal to Sauron even.
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Old 07-08-2005, 09:46 AM   #17
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Which is why I thought the Blue Wizards would work. There you would have two leaders, presumably near to equal in power to Gandalf, who would lead the Easterlings and Southrons to attack Gondor. They would be the central evil figure(s) to fight. And since there is very little information about them, a sequel is very open with them in it.
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Old 07-08-2005, 10:06 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gurthang
Which is why I thought the Blue Wizards would work. There you would have two leaders, presumably near to equal in power to Gandalf, who would lead the Easterlings and Southrons to attack Gondor. They would be the central evil figure(s) to fight. And since there is very little information about them, a sequel is very open with them in it.
I could see that as being possible. However I think they would need to gain power and one would overthrow the other in the struggle for power.
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Old 07-08-2005, 10:59 AM   #19
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mormegil,
Quote:
If if there were more Balrog's (which is possible) I don't see them as that great of a threat as say Sauron or Melkor were.
Durin's bane was the last balrog, and Gandalf slays it...From letter 144.
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But it is here found (there is usally a hang-over especially of evil from one age to another) that one had escaped and taken refuge under the mountains of Hithaeglin (the Misty Mountains).
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Old 07-08-2005, 12:22 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mormegil
The problem with the majority of these theories is the lack of a central evil figure.
One thing that I've noticed/inferred from reading Tolkien is that the age's highest level baddy has leave the stage for the next act to occur. Melkor, then Sauron, then...who knows, but whomever or whatever it would be would presumably have to be less in power than Sauron.

So one would ask, who is left in the Fourth Age that is less in power than Sauron yet in command of enough power to create up some big time problems? The Blue wizards fit the bill, as one would assume that they were less than Sauron. And if we can have a Witch-King that is equal to Gandalf , then we could have some person of Black Numenorian blood that, in possession of some evil artifact, could seek to conquer ME.

And in regards to civil wars etc, haven't those taken place even with the threat of Morgoth and Sauron present? It is assumed that the Enemy (whichever) is ultimately behind the troubles, it being part of the strategy to weaken the forces of good from within. Yet sometimes it's just those simply yielding to the former contents of Pandora's box.
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Old 07-08-2005, 06:32 PM   #21
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What about the lost secrets of the Rings of Power? Are their records still known in ME? I would have thought somebody would have been tempted to research into ring lore again, and redevelop the lost secrets behind the makings of the great rings of old. Men corrupt easily for desire of power, as was the case with the nine who became ringwraiths.

Also, is it possible for the WK to return? He was destroyed before the fall of Sauron, leading to the idea that he had a power in him that was also seperate from Sauron. Maybe this power could be resurrected to take physical form again?
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Old 07-08-2005, 08:25 PM   #22
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In reply to the first part of your post, Mansun, I know that Saruman researched far into ring-lore, somewhat desiring how to unmake them. Yet I also think it says somewhere that he desired to make a ring for his own benefit. I believe that was when he first began to contemplate himself as a ruler in Middle-Earth, rather than a helper.
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Old 07-10-2005, 09:09 AM   #23
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The Second Prophecy of Mandos refers to the End when Morgoth/Melkor will return. It is known that Morgoth was thrust out into the Timeless Void, and Earendil guards the Doors of the Night. Maybe The Dagor Dagorath will come when someone finds a way to release him, maybe that someone is either Pallando or Alatar, a traitor that has remained hidden since the dawn of time. I started to write a short story some years back, attempting to pull together a few loose ends, and entwining them with a few maybes. Within the story appear, The Ring of Saruman, The Moredhil (The Fathers of the Orcs, those Elves first caught by Melkor) The Origin of The Dark Tree. The Traitor Blue Wizard was Melkors insurance policy for when and if Sauron failed in his true mission of gaining the release of his Master. What we have to remember is that Tolkien is a translator, he is translating Elven histories. What if there is a Middle-Earth equivalent of The Dead Sea Scrolls, Maybe The Black Book of Melkor written by the other side. If anyone wants the start of this story e-mail me narfforc@aol.com.
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Old 07-12-2005, 05:22 AM   #24
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Where can I find out more about the Blue Wizards? I wonder why they were never mentioned by Tolkein in the LOTR appendices?

It may be that Tolkein made a mistake in not allowing for a loose thread or to be left at the end of the LOTR to leave the possibility of a sequel. Even he found it difficult to write one. Hence there probably would be no sequel film ever made.
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Old 07-12-2005, 05:25 AM   #25
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Though he did say that new evils MAY come, even if Sauron were to be defeated, as mentioned by somebody on a previous post.
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Old 07-12-2005, 06:25 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mansun
Where can I find out more about the Blue Wizards?
Most of the information we have about the Wizards, including the Blue, comes from the chapter 'The Istari' in Tolkien's Unfinished Tales. However, if you don't have that book yet, just use the search function for 'Istari' or 'wizards', and you'll find more than enough reading material about them here on the forum!

I agree with those who have suggested that the loose threads dangling from those blue robes would make a good new story. Since they were the most powerful persons in ME after the Third Age, provided they were still alive, they would have made formidable opponents. A possible conflict between the two of them would have added interest and suspense to the mixture.

I smell a new RPG...
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Old 07-12-2005, 10:55 AM   #27
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Is there anybody out there crazy enough to write a sequel with the return of a old nemesis, like Morgoth? I'm sure everybody would like to see this happen. But what role Hobbits would play it such a sequel would be questionable, as Morgoth is a hulking god-like foe that would not be nearly as easily defeated as Sauron. All the same, I'd like to see it happen. Even Tolkein suggested that the original book was 'too short'.
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Old 07-12-2005, 11:06 AM   #28
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I am afraid my friend there will be no sequel, unless it is is written by someone with the name of Tolkien, maybe a family member in years to come. While Christopher lives I cannot see that happening, they guard their legacy with an obsession. If the Prof had not sold the film rights a long time ago, there would have been no films. Do not hanker for more until you know all that is already written, and there are few people that can say they do. By what you have written, there is a lot to read, go and wander the hidden corners of Middle-Earth, and enjoy yourself. Continue to ask the questions, so we all can learn more.
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Old 09-08-2005, 07:21 PM   #29
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a sequel?

I think that the ending of the original ROTK book should be made into a movie. The hobits were thought to be snobby but after saving the shire from saruman they are heros
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Old 09-11-2005, 10:20 PM   #30
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I'm afraid I disagree with those who say the return of the Ithryn Luin would make a worthy sequel to LOTR. It leaves out an essential element of Tolkien's stories: The Quest. With LOTR you have the Quest of the Ring, with Silmarillion the Quest of the Silmarils, with The Hobbit the Quest of Erebor, but with Blue Wizards Attack Gondor, what quest can be conjured up?

Sure, it might make an interesting annal in the account of the Fourth Age, but beyond that, I don't see much story possibility. That's just me, though.

A year or so ago I tried to write an LOTR sequel called "The Stone of Valinor." It featured three descendants of Sam, Merry and Pippin, summoned to a Council of Elessar (the Second) at Minas Tirith. Another Balrog, together with the return of Ungoliant (since Silmarillion never explicitly says she died), were to be the nemesis. It was an interesting beginning, but never got farther than that, as I'm sure you can imagine.

Someday I plan on writing an account of the Fourth Age, Silmarillion style, that concludes with the return of Morgoth and the Dagor Dagorath. Fun stuff.
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Old 09-12-2005, 05:06 PM   #31
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What if somebody stole some thing from Harry Potter and have Sauron do one of those possessing things? He could possess someone who is among the evil still in ME and then work through that person. It could one of the Blue Wizards and then they discover the secret of the Rings of Power and make like three more . Then there would still be that Quest element, only they would have to get the Rings before they destroyed them. Or maybe the good guys could find the Rings' secret too and make some of their own. Whew, enough brainstorming for now.
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Old 11-23-2005, 02:52 PM   #32
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The Eye The return of Sauron and the Nazgul as men

Although the evil power & spirit of Sauron & the Nazgul was destroyed when the One Ring was no more, is there anything to suggest that these guys can return in their original form, as in before Sauron turned to evil ways & ensared the nine men doomed to die?

A novel could follow in which Sauron returns as a good guy, but in seceret again plots the mastery of ME for his own, with the nine men, formerly the Nazgul, working as his agents? Sounds like re-telling the LOTR all over again, but not quite.

Sauron would not have to openly reveal himself as Sauron until he has his secret plan in motion. I would have thought that this time his army would have to consist mainly of evil men, as there would be no Ring, not many orcs etc (or trolls?).

Last edited by Mansun; 11-23-2005 at 02:55 PM.
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Old 11-23-2005, 03:04 PM   #33
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For into the midst of all these policies comes the Ring of Power, the foundation of Barad-dur, and the hope of Sauron. Concerning this thing, my lords, you now all know enough for the understanding of our plight, and of Sauron's. If he regains it, your valour is vain, and his victory will be swift or complete: so complete that none can foresee the end of it while this world lasts. If it is destroyed, then he will fall: and his fall will be so low that none can foresee his arising ever again. For he will lose the best part of his strength that was native to him in his beginning, and all that was made or begun with that power will crumble, and he will be maimed for ever, becoming a mere spirit of malice that gnaws itself in the shadows, but cannot again grow or take shape. And so a great evil of this world will be removed. Other evils there are that may come; for Sauron is himself but a servant or emissary
3 LOTR V, 9 The Last Debate. In The War of the Ring - The Houses of Healing

This more or less answers that Sauron will never take shape again.
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Old 11-23-2005, 03:12 PM   #34
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3 LOTR V, 9 The Last Debate. In The War of the Ring - The Houses of Healing

This more or less answers that Sauron will never take shape again.

This does not rule out the possibility of a good spirit of Sauron taking shape again - only the evil one.
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Old 11-23-2005, 04:18 PM   #35
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This does not rule out the possibility of a good spirit of Sauron taking shape again - only the evil one.

Quote:
If it is destroyed, then he will fall: and his fall will be so low that none can foresee his arising ever again.
Two problems.

1. He would fall (evil or good) and none can foresee his arising. It would be impossible for him, having poured so much of his whole being and power into that ring and then the ring is destroyed, to regain any significant strength.

2. Sauron, in my opinion, will never be able to be good again. He had a chance when the Valar overthrew Morgoth and did not repent. I think that was the point of no return for him.
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Old 11-26-2005, 05:18 PM   #36
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Let's say if even after the destruction of the One Ring, Sauron could reshape. (Though this isn't possible). There's still another way Tolkien addresses to defeat Sauron that many people miss. In Letter 200 Tolkien brings up that it takes so much "power" for Sauron to reshape time and time again, that eventually he wouldn't have enough to reshape (even if the Ring wasn't destroyed).

Quote:
'But that of course did not destroy the spirit, nor dismiss it from the world to which it was bound until the end. After the battle with Gilgalad and Elendil, Sauron took a long while to re-build, longer than he had done after the Downfall of Numenor (I suppose because each building-up used up some of the inherent energy of the spirit, which might be called the 'will' or the effective link between the indestructible mind and being and the realization of its imagination).'
As Tolkien calls it the "will" or "inherent spirit," each "build up" Sauron uses to reform takes up his "spirit." And eventually just killing him enough times he would not have enough "will" to reform.
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Old 12-01-2005, 01:25 PM   #37
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Sorry, I don't have the original version of the Silmirillion next to me. I'll try a quick explaination of the extract (end of the Quenta Silmarillion)

"Quant à Morgoth, les Valar le jetèrent au-delà des Remparts du Monde par la Porte de la Nuit, dans le vide Eternel, et ils font à jamais garder ces remparts [...] Morgoth Bauglir [...] avait semés dans le coeur des Elfes et des Humains étaient une semence qui ne pouvait ni mourir ni être détruite. Elle renaît et bourgeonne de temps à autre pour donner des fruits noirs, et cela jusqu'aux derniers jours".
You'll be able to find easily this part before Akalabeth.

It is about:

1- The end of Morgoth, who's thrown out of the World by the Valar, into the Void.

2- The mischief he spread and left in this world. It is a malice that never dies and comes back up sometimes, until the end.

I think Sauron cannot come back. There is no possibility.
see all the topics above ==> When the One Ring is destroyed, it happens to him almost the same thing than to Morgoth. As Sauron put a great part of his powers into the ring, once it's destroyed, his body is cast off from Arda through the Gates of the Night (or annihilated, I don't know). His remaining power doesn't allow him to reshape, as it is not whole. For me, Sauron is not living in this world anymore.

If Sauron doesn't come back, it doesn't avoid other evil to take shape, as it is said at the end of the Quenta Silmarillion. Maybe the mischief passed into the Humans (it already happens, the Haradrims are an example). There are corrupted things left into the World when the last Elves came back to Valinor at the end of the 3rd Age. When Morgoth was banned, there were servants of him hiding in the World.
Sauron succeeded to Morgoth, another will succeed to Sauron.

I think the end of the 3rd Age means that it's the end of Sauron. (it's a parallel) With the new age, another ennemy will arise. This one is just the germ of what the two previous Dark Lords sowed.
There is no need to have Sauron coming back all the time. Things have to change. The World belongs to the Men, so let it be so with the evil, the darkness belongs to another Sauron's or Morgoth servant.

It was a pain to explain that in English.
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Old 06-28-2006, 01:39 PM   #38
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I can't remember the exact quote but I'm 99% certain that Tolkien stated that although Men [Men specifically, of course, the other races are all doomed to end, sadly] would face many new evils in the Fourth Age and beyond, they would never again face it in a metphysical, god-like, magical form. So no return for Sauron or Morgoth - or even the Blue Wizards. To that extent, Saruman, the WK and the Nazgul would not return either, and all the balrogs were gone. Also, Aragorn subdued the Haradrim and made peace with them, so they're not a threat.

So what do we have in Fourth Age Middle-Earth? Well, there ARE some evil Dwarves in the very east, but they're not going to be the new evil. Durin's Folk are declining*. There are also possibly dragons in the far north, so that's another possibility. The Barrow-wights in the north haven't disappeared overnight, either, and they might somehow possess someone to do great evil. To that extent, the faded Elves would also become wight-like, and the bitterest of them could well cause some mischief (not all Elves are as pure and generally 'good' as they seem to be portrayed]**.

Unfortunately, with Aragorn's death I think the whole saga and magic (somewhat literally) disappeared from Middle-earth, and the new evil would come from the hearts of Men.



*This is only a possibility. Although they sometime reconquer Khazad-Dum and were there 'until the world grew old and the Dwarves failed', that could easily be interpreted as centuries, or ages away, or even at the same time that Men eventually might fail.

**As we know the Elves who stayed in Middle-earth faded, becoming in effect spirits, although personally I feel that would be a long process, and that some physical Elves, in places like Eryn Lasgalen, would stilll be found many, many years after Aragorn's death. Therefore, any possession that they might do would probably happen in a distant future.

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Old 08-08-2006, 09:38 AM   #39
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Would anyone believe it to be possible that Eru would give Sauron another chance to prove himself by giving him life again (as with Gandalf)? It must have taken a lot of power from Eru to create Sauron, so it may be thought that resurrecting Sauron to right his wrongs may not be impossible.
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Old 01-03-2007, 03:29 PM   #40
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I don't think Sauron with rerturn, but do I think that evil has been destroyed forever? No. Good and Evil depend on each other. They create the balance. You can't have one without the other. Evil can never fully be exterminated but it can be pushed back into the shadows until a time when it will manifest itself again.
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