When the Ainur entered Ea - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Ar-Luman · 10-30-2002, 06:08 PM

When the Ainur entered Ea, they were made into at least two different groups; the Valar and Maia. What system, if there was one at all, was used to determined which beings fell into what category. Obviously, power had something to do with it but was there any other factors involved. Or was it just up for grabs for any takers.

Westerly Wizard · 10-30-2002, 07:03 PM

The Ainur who were the greatest became Valar, as called by the Eldar, and the rest were the Maiar

Evenstar1 · 10-30-2002, 11:26 PM

I could be completely off on this, but I was under the impression (in reading Ainulindale) that the difference between Valar/Maiar/etc. was tantamount to the differences between the different choirs of angels (i.e. Seraphim/Cherubim/etc.). To me, this would mean that the Valar/Maiar separation would have been distinguishable even in the pre-Valar state, while they were all still Ainur. It was a distinguishment of species, perhaps characterized by powers, but perhaps also by something more, too. Am I on the right track? Anyone?

Legolas · 10-30-2002, 11:44 PM

They are all still Ainur. "Valar" and "Maiar" are more like job descriptions. The 14 greatest (of the Ainur chosen to inhabit Ea) as judged by Eru (without error, of course) were designated as Valar, the ruling powers of Arda, and those of lesser power were Maiar, their servants.

10-31-2002, 03:51 PM

The fourteen greatest of the Ainur who chose to enter Ea were the Valar. Most of the Ainur remained with Iluvater. Of the Valar seven were Lords and seven were Queens. The Maiar being lesser in power then the Valar were servants of the Valar. And then of course there was Melkor.

Helkasir · 10-31-2002, 04:47 PM

something like that. But, since this is true, Sauron is kin to the Vala by definition. And he died. Is it possible to kill a valar?

Legolas · 10-31-2002, 05:45 PM

You cannot kill a Valar, nor did Sauron die.

He poured so much of his being into the One Ring that when it was destroyed, he was weakened to a point which he was completely helpless and unable to take physical shape.

Afrodal Fenyar · 11-01-2002, 02:42 PM

By the way, when Huan fought with Sauron when he was in his wolf-form, Sauron's throat was hurt, and when he fled in his vampire form, his throat was bleeding.

When Isildur cut his finger, he would always have only four fingers, no matter in which form he was.

So, if somebody would hit an ainu to head, could it then be possible to kill an ainu? What form ever that ainu would choose, he/she wouldn't have head. And that would probably have pretty much same effect as on Man or any else. So I think in that way an ainu can be killed.

And anyways, it is said that Túrin will slay Morgoth Bauglir in Dagor Dagorath, so I think that even an ainu can die.

My opinion. What do you think?

alkquareiel02 · 11-05-2002, 10:56 AM

I'm new but this is what I think, when the Ainur sang to Eru lesser voices were mentioned somewhere and I think that the maia were those lesser voices and ended up being the Valar's servents being lesser in power and stature. Although it was their own choice to go to Ea, but once the choice to go or stay was made it was final. No return. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Galorme · 11-05-2002, 05:02 PM

The Valar and the Maia are both Ainur, Alkquareie. The only real difference is Power. The Valar are split up into divisions too, it’s merely how great they are that it depends on. I would expect that the destination be made by the Elves that told the Sil. Actually I wouldn't really be that surprised if the idea of Power and Greatness and Ranking came from the Men when they interpreted the Sil. Rankings seems to be quite a Mannish rather than Elvish trait.

Galorme · 11-05-2002, 05:03 PM

Oh yeah and welcome to the BarrowDowns by the way.

tangerine · 11-05-2002, 05:14 PM

I think the original "power" might have been how close an Ainu was to Eru, and how much of his purpose they percieved. Morgoth saw the most, but Manwe understood the most. It's in the Silm. and when they came down to Ea, that translated into Power, because they each had some specific, unique understanding of it's purpose.

Galorme · 11-05-2002, 05:25 PM

That reminds me of Star Wars a lot. Power is directly equated to "Knowledge of the Force", which could just as well be equated to "perception of the mind of Eru". Yoda is stronger than Luke (in Episode:V at least), because he has a greater knowledge of the force, despite the fact that if Luke wanted Yoda dead i would expect a quick kick into a marsh would do the trick. Manwe is greater than Morgoth, even though Morgoth is the mightiest of the Valar, as he has the greatest ability to perceive what Eru does.

But as far as Star Wars/Middle Earth analogies go the Force/Flame Imperishable argument works better than the Force/Eru argument.

Aiwendil · 11-05-2002, 08:39 PM

Galorme: Interesting, though I must disagree. I don't think that "power" in the Silmarillion is tied directly to knowledge of Eru, at least not in the same way that power in Star Wars is tied to knowledge of the Force. Of course, the term "power" can be a bit vague. I do think that, for example, Manwe's knowledge of Eru can be thought of as giving him power, in that it gives him wisdom, which could be considered a component of power. Nonetheless, Morgoth is said to have more native power, and I think that in a direct confrontation between Manwe and Melkor (prior to the dispersion of the latter's power), Melkor would win. On the other hand, a Jedi's power is tied very directly to the Force. Yoda does not have more power than Luke merely in the sense that he is wiser; in a fight between the two, Yoda would actually win. So in Tolkien, it is only wisdom that is tied to knowledge of Eru, whereas in Star Wars, all sorts of power are tied to knowledge of the Force.

tangerine · 11-05-2002, 09:52 PM

Aiwendil, I don't mean knowledge of Eru himself, I mean knowledge of his purpose-for Ea, and what was to come. I'm sorry I wasn't clear. You pretty much get what I was driving at anyways though. Manwe, and te Valar, understood that there was a big master plan about to unfold, so they had enough patience and faith to let the Children of Iluvitur come when they were good and ready. (Not so much Aule, bu that was really anticipation more than anything.) Morgoth saw that plan, but would not understand it because he wanted things for himself, namely the Secret Fire in the beginning, (at first a desire to merely possess, later a desire to dominate and control) and later dominion over Ea. The whole force theory is really a good analogy for it.

Ar-Luman · 11-07-2002, 06:45 AM

These are all very good comments, but I pose another question in respect to the Valar.

- Of those Ainur that stayed behind, is there any writings that mention them in detail and were any of them considered to be more powerful than the Valar were. Or were those that made up the Valar allowed to go because of there power?

- Now, I know that there were definite power distinctions between the Valar such as when Melkor is mentioned as being the mightiest but was there not a group within the group so to speak of the more powerful Valar?

tangerine · 11-07-2002, 09:09 PM

-of the ainur who staryed behind, they likely were not as curious about Ea as to leave their native home. The Ainur who did leave likely did not do so because they were powerful (Tulkas was said to be a small spirit who had resided in a corned of the heavens, and he proved mighty), but because their curiousity of this new world they had been shown overcame the home that their home in the Void near Eru held over them.
-I think the Silm specified the most powerful of the Valar; Manwe, Varda, Ulmo, Aule, Yarvanna, Mandos. The others were not as prominent, but nonethe less important. notice that each Istari was 'nominated' to go by one of these Valar (except Gandalf, who was chosen by Manwe & Varda; see UT)

alkquareiel02 · 11-09-2002, 02:30 AM

I checked my books again and the Ainur came with lesser spirts that became the Vala's servents according to Lost Tales 1. Or something like that anyway. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

10-30-2002, 06:08 PM	#1
Ar-Luman Animated Skeleton Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Irving, Tx Posts: 27	When the Ainur entered Ea When the Ainur entered Ea, they were made into at least two different groups; the Valar and Maia. What system, if there was one at all, was used to determined which beings fell into what category. Obviously, power had something to do with it but was there any other factors involved. Or was it just up for grabs for any takers. __________________ "and I, I took the one less traveled by and that has made all the difference."

10-30-2002, 07:03 PM	#2
Westerly Wizard Haunting Spirit Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 72	The Ainur who were the greatest became Valar, as called by the Eldar, and the rest were the Maiar __________________ "He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure."

10-30-2002, 11:26 PM	#3
Evenstar1 Wight Join Date: May 2002 Location: Colorado (just east of the Misty Mts.) Posts: 111	I could be completely off on this, but I was under the impression (in reading Ainulindale) that the difference between Valar/Maiar/etc. was tantamount to the differences between the different choirs of angels (i.e. Seraphim/Cherubim/etc.). To me, this would mean that the Valar/Maiar separation would have been distinguishable even in the pre-Valar state, while they were all still Ainur. It was a distinguishment of species, perhaps characterized by powers, but perhaps also by something more, too. Am I on the right track? Anyone? __________________ - Eve

10-30-2002, 11:44 PM	#4
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,850	They are all still Ainur. "Valar" and "Maiar" are more like job descriptions. The 14 greatest (of the Ainur chosen to inhabit Ea) as judged by Eru (without error, of course) were designated as Valar, the ruling powers of Arda, and those of lesser power were Maiar, their servants. __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

10-31-2002, 04:47 PM	#6
Helkasir Haunting Spirit Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: North of the Iron Hills Posts: 89	something like that. But, since this is true, Sauron is kin to the Vala by definition. And he died. Is it possible to kill a valar? __________________ "Onen i-Estal Edain, u-chebin estel anim."

10-31-2002, 03:51 PM	#5
Timloth Guest Posts: n/a	The fourteen greatest of the Ainur who chose to enter Ea were the Valar. Most of the Ainur remained with Iluvater. Of the Valar seven were Lords and seven were Queens. The Maiar being lesser in power then the Valar were servants of the Valar. And then of course there was Melkor.

10-31-2002, 05:45 PM	#7
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,850	You cannot kill a Valar, nor did Sauron die. He poured so much of his being into the One Ring that when it was destroyed, he was weakened to a point which he was completely helpless and unable to take physical shape. __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

11-01-2002, 02:42 PM	#8
Afrodal Fenyar Haunting Spirit Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Finland Posts: 94	By the way, when Huan fought with Sauron when he was in his wolf-form, Sauron's throat was hurt, and when he fled in his vampire form, his throat was bleeding. When Isildur cut his finger, he would always have only four fingers, no matter in which form he was. So, if somebody would hit an ainu to head, could it then be possible to kill an ainu? What form ever that ainu would choose, he/she wouldn't have head. And that would probably have pretty much same effect as on Man or any else. So I think in that way an ainu can be killed. And anyways, it is said that Túrin will slay Morgoth Bauglir in Dagor Dagorath, so I think that even an ainu can die. My opinion. What do you think? __________________ "Out of doubt, out of dark to the day's rising I came singing in the sun, sword unsheathing. To hope's end I rode and to heart's breaking: Now for wrath, now for ruin and a red nightfall!" ~Eomer

11-05-2002, 10:56 AM	#9
alkquareiel02 Animated Skeleton Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: england Posts: 31	I'm new but this is what I think, when the Ainur sang to Eru lesser voices were mentioned somewhere and I think that the maia were those lesser voices and ended up being the Valar's servents being lesser in power and stature. Although it was their own choice to go to Ea, but once the choice to go or stay was made it was final. No return. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

11-05-2002, 05:02 PM	#10
Galorme Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: London Posts: 337	The Valar and the Maia are both Ainur, Alkquareie. The only real difference is Power. The Valar are split up into divisions too, it’s merely how great they are that it depends on. I would expect that the destination be made by the Elves that told the Sil. Actually I wouldn't really be that surprised if the idea of Power and Greatness and Ranking came from the Men when they interpreted the Sil. Rankings seems to be quite a Mannish rather than Elvish trait. __________________ Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! The day has come! Behold people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!

11-05-2002, 05:03 PM	#11
Galorme Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: London Posts: 337	Oh yeah and welcome to the BarrowDowns by the way. __________________ Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! The day has come! Behold people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!

11-05-2002, 05:14 PM	#12
tangerine Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 100	I think the original "power" might have been how close an Ainu was to Eru, and how much of his purpose they percieved. Morgoth saw the most, but Manwe understood the most. It's in the Silm. and when they came down to Ea, that translated into Power, because they each had some specific, unique understanding of it's purpose.

11-05-2002, 05:25 PM	#13
Galorme Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: London Posts: 337	That reminds me of Star Wars a lot. Power is directly equated to "Knowledge of the Force", which could just as well be equated to "perception of the mind of Eru". Yoda is stronger than Luke (in Episode:V at least), because he has a greater knowledge of the force, despite the fact that if Luke wanted Yoda dead i would expect a quick kick into a marsh would do the trick. Manwe is greater than Morgoth, even though Morgoth is the mightiest of the Valar, as he has the greatest ability to perceive what Eru does. But as far as Star Wars/Middle Earth analogies go the Force/Flame Imperishable argument works better than the Force/Eru argument. __________________ Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! The day has come! Behold people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!

11-05-2002, 08:39 PM	#14
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	Galorme: Interesting, though I must disagree. I don't think that "power" in the Silmarillion is tied directly to knowledge of Eru, at least not in the same way that power in Star Wars is tied to knowledge of the Force. Of course, the term "power" can be a bit vague. I do think that, for example, Manwe's knowledge of Eru can be thought of as giving him power, in that it gives him wisdom, which could be considered a component of power. Nonetheless, Morgoth is said to have more native power, and I think that in a direct confrontation between Manwe and Melkor (prior to the dispersion of the latter's power), Melkor would win. On the other hand, a Jedi's power is tied very directly to the Force. Yoda does not have more power than Luke merely in the sense that he is wiser; in a fight between the two, Yoda would actually win. So in Tolkien, it is only wisdom that is tied to knowledge of Eru, whereas in Star Wars, all sorts of power are tied to knowledge of the Force.

11-05-2002, 09:52 PM	#15
tangerine Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 100	Aiwendil, I don't mean knowledge of Eru himself, I mean knowledge of his purpose-for Ea, and what was to come. I'm sorry I wasn't clear. You pretty much get what I was driving at anyways though. Manwe, and te Valar, understood that there was a big master plan about to unfold, so they had enough patience and faith to let the Children of Iluvitur come when they were good and ready. (Not so much Aule, bu that was really anticipation more than anything.) Morgoth saw that plan, but would not understand it because he wanted things for himself, namely the Secret Fire in the beginning, (at first a desire to merely possess, later a desire to dominate and control) and later dominion over Ea. The whole force theory is really a good analogy for it.

11-07-2002, 06:45 AM	#16
Ar-Luman Animated Skeleton Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Irving, Tx Posts: 27	These are all very good comments, but I pose another question in respect to the Valar. - Of those Ainur that stayed behind, is there any writings that mention them in detail and were any of them considered to be more powerful than the Valar were. Or were those that made up the Valar allowed to go because of there power? - Now, I know that there were definite power distinctions between the Valar such as when Melkor is mentioned as being the mightiest but was there not a group within the group so to speak of the more powerful Valar? __________________ "and I, I took the one less traveled by and that has made all the difference."

11-07-2002, 09:09 PM	#17
tangerine Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 100	-of the ainur who staryed behind, they likely were not as curious about Ea as to leave their native home. The Ainur who did leave likely did not do so because they were powerful (Tulkas was said to be a small spirit who had resided in a corned of the heavens, and he proved mighty), but because their curiousity of this new world they had been shown overcame the home that their home in the Void near Eru held over them. -I think the Silm specified the most powerful of the Valar; Manwe, Varda, Ulmo, Aule, Yarvanna, Mandos. The others were not as prominent, but nonethe less important. notice that each Istari was 'nominated' to go by one of these Valar (except Gandalf, who was chosen by Manwe & Varda; see UT)

11-09-2002, 02:30 AM	#18
alkquareiel02 Animated Skeleton Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: england Posts: 31	I checked my books again and the Ainur came with lesser spirts that became the Vala's servents according to Lost Tales 1. Or something like that anyway. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]