Garrison for the Rammas Echor

[The Mouth of Sauron]

By my reckoning the Rammas Echor outer wall protecting the Pelennor must have been at least 30 miles long.

Did Gondor have any hope, at the time of the War of the Ring, of providing a garrison to cover the entire length of this fortification ?

[Inziladun]

The answer partially depends on whether the garrison in question would be expected to totally stop invaders for an extended period of time, or simply slow them down while taking toll of them. If the former, I doubt Gondor alone could have managed it without leaving the City defenseless.

Yet (Minas Tirith) was in truth falling year by year into decay; and already it lacked half the men that could have dwelt at ease there.

ROTK Minas Tirith

So it appears Minas Tirith did not have the manpower on its own.

And that was all, less than three thousands full told. No more would come.

ROTK Minas Tirith

The outlying fiefs could initially only supply that small number. Once the southern areas were freed from the threat of the Corsairs, that enabled them to come to the defense and fully man the City, but I don't think they could have done that and guarded a thirty mile long wall at the same time.

With the additional forces of the Rohirrim the Rammas could probably have been garrisoned completely, but in the end I don't see them holding the line indefinitely against Sauron.

[Kuruharan]

Even with the addition of the Rohirrim I don't think 30 miles of walls could have been fully garrisoned.

That wall wasn't a good idea to my mind...not that in the event it mattered as Gondor lost it so quickly.

[Gordis]

Rammas was not a good idea, I think so too.

Gondor's natural defence line against Mordor was the Anduin. It would have been simpler and much more efficient to guard the bridges and crossings better - to build a new fortress in the ruins of Osgiliath by the Bridge, maybe a strong fortification on the East bank as well.

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

I think that the Rammas was partly symbolic, but also it would have been considered necessary to guard the farmlands and settlements outside of Minas Tirith itself. Had the Rammas not existed then small parties of orcs could have been constantly raiding the farms, burning crops and playing havoc with the city's food supply (as well as lowering morale) for years before the War of the Ring.

Of course there wouldn't have enough men to man all 30 miles of it - but then enemy forces couldn't have attacked the entire length of the wall all at once. You would just apply defenders to where they were needed.

I think Tolkien may also have been inspired by real life fortifications - the Great Wall of China (which is thousands of miles long), Hadrian's Wall - and in the twentieth century The Maginot Line which was supposed to protect France from invasion by Germany.

[Kuruharan]

I think that the Rammas was partly symbolic

I agree with you there.

Had the Rammas not existed then small parties of orcs could have been constantly raiding the farms, burning crops and playing havoc with the city's food supply (as well as lowering morale) for years before the War of the Ring.

This is also true, but I don't think the wall was the correct tactical or strategic answer to these problems. I think Gordis is more on the money.

I think Tolkien may also have been inspired by real life fortifications - the Great Wall of China (which is thousands of miles long), Hadrian's Wall - and in the twentieth century The Maginot Line which was supposed to protect France from invasion by Germany.

Possibly...although its almost inevitable that somebody point out that none of those worked out very well.

[Gordis]

Walls were indeed efficient against raiders - but not against a huge advancing army. I understand why the Rammas had been built initially, but repairing and strengthening the wall in 3018-3019 was nothing but a waste of time and effort.

Also consider that if the Enemy hadn't destroyed the north-western part of Rammas Echor, but fortified and manned (orc-ed) it instead, the advance of the Rohirrim cavalry would have been stopped.

It looks like Rammas had been built after 2901

Gandalf passed now into the wide land beyond the Rammas Echor. So the men of Gondor called the out wall that they had built with great labour, after Ithilien fell under the shadow of their Enemy.LOTR, Minas Tirith

2901. Most of the remaining inhabitants of Ithilien desert it owing to the attacks of Uruks of Mordor. The secret refuge of Henneth Annûn is built- TY

Likely when Rammas had been completed, the Gondorians deemed it safe to rebuild the Bridge of Osgiliath (in ruins since 2475):

Yet we won [Osgiliath] back in the days of the youth of Denethor: not to dwell in, but to hold as an outpost, and to rebuild the bridge for the passage of our arms.- LOTR, Minas Tirith

Denethor was born in 2930. The bridge was likely built before 2951, the year when Sauron declared himself openly in Mordor, after that it would have been utter foolishness.

As it was, they now got the Bridge leading into the abandoned Ithilien (built a bridge for Sauron, so to say) and the Rammas that couldn't really guard Minas Tirith. Not too smart, precious...

[Rumil]

Hi all,

nice topic, agree with P-of-the-H points regarding protecting the farmland from small raiding parties etc but not useful versus a serious army.

Nobody has mentioned the Causeway Forts, admittedly we don't see much of them but they appear to be at the point the causeway from Osgiliath enters the Rammas, which is sensible. That's the outwork that Faramir nearly died defending. Of course they weren't much use against the whole army of Morgul but would presumably have been useful in keeping out medium-sized attacks from Osgiliath.

Maybe the Rammas was not only symbolic of defiance but also symbolised safety to the husbandmen of Gondor, in that they could safely farm within the circuit (no matter how illusory this safety turned out to be!).

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

Originally Posted by Rumil

Maybe the Rammas was not only symbolic of defiance but also symbolised safety to the husbandmen of Gondor, in that they could safely farm within the circuit (no matter how illusory this safety turned out to be!).

Yes I agree Rumil. I think that's a major reason as to why it was built - to keep the husbandmen happy. I imagine that no one wanted to think that the attack would be on the scale it turned out to be!

[mark12_30]

There are other reasons to build a wall, right? Wolves, theives, skirmishes, raiding parties. People build walls, or fences, around simple gardens just to keep out the deer (ahem-- eight feet high, precious.)

As the darkness outside slowly thickened, building a wall probably seemed more reasonable than not having one. If you have a wall, then people know where to gather. If a raiding party of orcs lumbers over the horizon, the watchman blows a horn and we swap the pitchforks for the bows kept at the wall. Archers on the wall should do more damage and take less casualties, than a raggletag bunch of farmers with pitchforks, or shepherds with crooks.

I imagine the walls served their purpose more than once, before the War of the Ring erupted. Pelennor would not have been so green, I think, without the wall.