Orcish Fear

[The Black Lieutenant]

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Re: Orcish Fear

Do not bandy words in your insolence with the Mouth of Sauron! Just kidding.

God or not (I make no distinction between gods and other mythological beings) my point was that Tolkien intended there to be an association between Earendil the Mariner and Earendil the star, or maybe mythological identification is a better term. Was anyone disputing this? I don't remember now, but I thought so at the time.

The idea that orcs evolved from beasts sounds great. What discrepancies arise from this revision?

The question is not whether or not goblins and elves were related in Norse-Teutonic myth, but whether or not they were related in British folklore. Tolkien's earlier conceptions of elves and goblins were more folklorish than his later conceptions, which were more influenced by the epics than by folklore.


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[Saulotus]

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Re: Orcish Fear

A third point of contention:

There is also an essay [QUENDI AND ELDAR] where Tolkien examines the stem Ruku-, from where the derivatives; Orch, yrch, rauku, uruk (also urka 'horrible'; Horrible hordes anyone?) spring [including the translators' usage of orc in the stories as explanation for its presence- see LOTR].
Presumably olog has in its history this same stem as its base as it is awfully close to the Sindarin translation).

Before the Elves knew differently, they called any creature of Darkness or prowling creature by the term (Common Eldarin = rauko) (Quenya = urko) (Sindarin = urug) uruk; including orcs, trolls, balrogs (see Valarauko), and whathaveyou). As they learned to differentiate between these beasts, they applied a more sophisticated definition (and thus the derivatives).

For what it's worth: uruk is also a direct Adunaic word of the same meaning (based mostly upon Avarin and CE), not a Black Speech invention.

</p>

[Mithadan]

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Re: Orcish Fear

Urkahoth? Black speech dates to the Second Age anyway doesn't it?

Not sure I understand why this is a &quot;third point of contention&quot;. Are you suggesting bestial origins for anything whose elvish name derives from the Ruku? Probably not. The Valaraukar clearly weren't animals. I have to assume that I lost the &quot;thread&quot; (yuck, yuck) of this discussion.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Saulotus]

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Re: Orcish Fear

A further clarification on orc appearances at the time of the Elves awakening.
This is part of an essay that helps to solve that problem by an examination of the root stem and its derivatives.

Not beastial in the sense that you mean it, only that the stem has its meaning in Demon. An unknown evil form. The application to all monsters of Morgoth (until the Elves learned better).

</p>

[HerenIstarion]

Wight
Posts: 183
Re: Orcish Fear

2) Tolkien got the idea for Orcs from Béowulf, where they are mentioned but not elaborated. Goblins did not really have an immediate relation to the elves of Norse-Teutonic myth; so this connection is flawed somehow

I don't remember where did I pick it up, still an idea is twisting in my subconscious that the word ork meant &quot;whale&quot; in old english


Edited by: HerenIstarion at: 11/7/00 4:45:12 pm

[The Black Lieutenant]

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Re: Orcish Fear

Upon reading that post, the word &quot;orcus&quot; sprang to mind. I can't find it in the dictionary, but for some reason I seem to remember some connexion between &quot;orcus&quot; and whales.

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[burrahobbit]

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Re: Orcish Fear

A killer whale is Orcinus orca. There is a preface in The Hobbit (at least there is in mine) that says &quot;Orc is not an English word ... Orc is the hobbits' form of the name given at that time to these creatures, and it is not conected at all with our orc, ork, applied to sea-animals of dolphin-kind.&quot;

What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>

[Sharkû]

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Re: Orcish Fear

T.A. Shippey, The Road to Middle-Earth (p. 60):
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;'Orcs' go back to orcnéas, the 'demon-corpses' of the Beowulf-poet, and to another Old English word orcthyrs, 'orc-giant'.<hr></blockquote>

And now, J.R.R. Tolkien, in his letter to Naomi Mitchison, in 1954 (see Letters p.177f.):
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Orcs (the word as far as I am concerned actually derived from Old Englishorc 'demon', but only because of its phonetic suitability) [...]<hr></blockquote>

<h6> Be still, O wand'rer! / Dost thou not hear the sad song of night? / How the wind does beckon thee to rest for a while / and to lend him thine ear? / What woeful tale does it tell tonight? / What tragedy of old? </h6></p>

[Saulotus]

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Re: Orcish Fear

Correct; and why Tolkien undertook the sub-creative effort to place it in context with the term Demon in the essay as stated above, and the ties to other forms of words with the same general meaning.

One must remember that LOTR and HOBBIT are techincally 'translations'.
See Appendix F (II) and HOBBIT Prologue.
This is why orc/orcs is used (as it also has a phonetic similarity to orch/yrch) as it also means Demon.

The truly significant additional fact gleaned from the essay is that at one time, Elves called ANY monster of Darkness; 'Demon' (as stated above).

For those questioning the meaning of this; Tolkien asserts that orcs are bred from men and beasts. Men awoke after Elves (very shortly afterward that is). As stated; this is an additional point to clarify the orc origins.

Even clearer; the 'orcs' that the Elves encountered were Rauku (Q. Uruku) forms, not 'orcs' as known in later histories. Merely demons of Darkness that the Elves did not know of. Only later, were classifications given.

All this effort to help explain orcs descending from Men, not elves. (Also asseted in QUENDI AND ELDAR from where this is taken and complimentary/adjutant papers. See MYTHS TRANSFORMED; Orcs).

But....

For those who truly believe that they are descended from Elves; that is your interpretation and personal belief. You are welcome to it.

</p>

[The Black Lieutenant]

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Re: Orcish Fear

No, you have enlightened me. I like this latter idea of Tolkien's better. And your explanation of how the Elves could have encountered orcs before Man awoke seems satisfactory enough. But then one must say that orcs were made in mockery of men rather than in mockery of Elves.

What about trolls? Were they also descended from beasts? And the later trolls, who were smarter, were they interbred with men, or were they really Maiar?

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[Saulotus]

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Re: Orcish Fear

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> by the Black Lieutenant
But then one must say that orcs were made in mockery of men rather than in mockery of Elves.<hr></blockquote>
Technically orcs arose in the mind of Melkor in the original vision of the theme before creation.

Concerning Orcs:
The Elves believed they were made in mockery of them.
How much this plays upon their vanity is the question.
ATHRABETH examines the disimiliar views of the Children a little more in depth.

The orcs were actually made in mockery of the CHILDREN of Eru, and as defilements of Eru's thoughts.

This view on orcs began taking shape in writings around 1959, and isn't as latter as is thought.
The refinements are however later thoughts concerning control of orcs, Maiar forms of orcs, and the ultimate origin of orcs as descending from Beasts due to Melkor's inability to create beings having self-will, but needing the ability to reproduce. The designs of orcs were actually left to Sauron to complete.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> by The Black Lieutenant
What about trolls? Were they also descended from beasts? And the later trolls, who were smarter, were they interbred with men, or were they really Maiar?<hr></blockquote>

Concerning Trolls:

The Trolls were made in mockery of The Children of Yavanna (who are present in the themes at the beginning; see ANAXARTARON ONYALIE ANAXARTAMEL [Of the Ents and Eagles/ aka Of Aule and Yavanna]).

A side note to this: This may also be the germ of the origin of the winged steeds of the Nazgul [stated by Tolkien as most assuredly NOT Pterodactyls] (as mockeries of the Eagles?).

Above I mentioned Melkor's inability to create beings of self-will. There is an important distinction here; Melkor COULD create beings (Tolkien uses the creation of Dwarves by Aule as comparison in the essay) but they would not have 'free-will' (i.e. puppets). From this discussion; the original creation of Trolls (from Stone) is understood more clearly. Tolkien asserts that these 'puppets' could after time away from direct control, develop a limited form of 'self-will'. Sauron, in breeding Trolls with Men, creates a more dependable force of slaves.

QUENDI AND ELDAR also expands upon the round world at creation idea that was introduced in 1945 with THE DROWNING OF ANADUNE (pre-LOTR). ANOTHER point of major contention among SILMARILLION readers, who feel that the elderly flat world concept should be retained. See also the aforementioned OF THE ENTS AND EAGLES rejected passages by Christopher concerning the Sun at the beginning, among many other essays involving this concept.

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000133>Saulotus </A> at: 11/9/00 12:44:57 am

[Mithadan]

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Re: Orcish Fear

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Another point of contention among SILMARILLION readers... <hr></blockquote>

You talkin' about me?

Actually, I like the round earth conception, but wonder if the reason JRRT never got around to finishing Sil. was due to his incessant conceptual tinkering. As a possible sequel to Tales from Eressea, I may weave in a round earth discussion (Saul, you've never commented on the first Tale, I thought you might like it).

I need to reread Morgoth's Ring and Peoples of Middle Earth (only read the latter once) but I'm committed to reading LoTR again. Hard to fit everything in right now. I've grown to like JRRT's later conception of the origin of orcs, though it still somewhat grates on my visceral impression of elves becoming orcs (emphasizes the Marring of Arda more, in my opinion) as well as my preconceptions based on the references from LoTR cited above.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Saulotus]

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Re: Orcish Fear

One last point concerning Orcs from Elves is probably apropos:

In the original concept of Orcs and Goblins; they were not the same.
In writing HOBBIT; Tolkien drew upon his creation (proto-SILMARILLION) as the base for the story background, and why Gondolin, Elrond etc. were introduced.

This is reflected in some statements from the Great Goblin regarding the identity and recognition of Orcrist and Glamdring. At this time; Goblins were considered to be Twisted forms of Elves, and Orcs as superior breeds of Goblins (crossed with Men).

This is also why Orcs and Hobgoblins appear in HOBBIT as seperate entities.
Hobgoblins are presumably at this time some mixture of Goblin and Orc.

When in writing LOTR, Tolkien decided to combine the two seperate groups into one classification, thus the additional preface commentary seen in HOBBIT, with the LOTR re-definition of Hobgoblin as orc-men.

However; the situation created with the Great Goblin's comments went un-revised, along with the references to Orcs and Hobgoblins, creating a mixed up family tree.

Only later, as presented above, did he re-address the problem.

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000133>Saulotus </A> at: 11/8/00 11:09:32 pm

[Saulotus]

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Re: Orcish Fear

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> by Mithadan
You talkin' about me?<hr></blockquote>
Is this a deNiro gag?
I wasn't even thinking in terms of specific people...

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> by Mithadan
(Saul, you've never commented on the first Tale, I thought you might like it).<hr></blockquote>
Pardon? What Tale?
I only check out a couple of sections on this site anymore, and not all messages in those I do check (sometimes why there are late replies), so...

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> by Mithadan
Peoples of Middle Earth (only read the latter once) but I'm committed to reading LoTR again.<hr></blockquote>
&quot;It must make haste, haste!&quot;

</p>

[Saulotus]

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Re: Orcish Fear

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> by Mithadan
(Saul, you've never commented on the first Tale, I thought you might like it).<hr></blockquote>
Made me go look for it did ya?
Nasty cruel Hobbit.

Interesting.
Liked the Sam/Frodo ending.
Elrond and Celebrian were a nice touch.
Still sticking with the Aelfwine thing eh? <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

</p>

[HerenIstarion]

Wight
Posts: 193
Re: Orcish Fëar

One must remember that LOTR and HOBBIT are techincally 'translations'.
See Appendix F (II) and HOBBIT Prologue. This is why orc/orcs is used (as it also has a phonetic similarity to orch/yrch) as it also means Demon.

Good point indeed. That's why translating JRRT into Georgian I used kaji instead of goblin, but preserved orc; as well as troll is replaced with devi and so on. Still, that reminds me that I am in great need of book on nomenclature, and Shippey's works too.

Anyone knowing the link to those in a form of e-text, or a site where those can be ordered, please post ir here. thx

[Saulotus]

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Re: Orcish Fear

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> by HerenIstarion
or a site where those can be ordered, please post ti here.<hr></blockquote>

Well I won't publish one here (as I'd lose one of my really good and secret sources) <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

But if you like I'll email it.
With the condition that you not share it. <img src=biggrin.gif ALT="">

Where are you located; generally speaking?
(please, don't say in a chair).

</p>

[HerenIstarion]

Wight
Posts: 196
Re: Orcish Fear

Originally Posted by Black Lieutenant

I make no distinction between gods and other mythological

Why?

...but what they are really like, and what lies beyond them, only those can say who have climbed them...

[The Black Lieutenant]

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Re: Orcish Fear

Because there is speculation that I believe has merit, that in the survival of pagan traditions under Christianity the line between gods and other mythological beings became blurred. The heros of the Irish mythological cycle, for example, are considered to be gods by many scholars. Also, faerie beings are thought to be diminished god-forms (as is suggested in Kipling's &quot;Puck of Pook's Hill,&quot; Robert Graves' &quot;The White Goddess&quot; and other sources). Robin Goodfellow is a prime example of this, because he was accused of being the God of Witches in medieval times. Robert Graves also makes a convincing argument that Robin Hood's legend comes from both an actual person and a faerie being/god. Herne the Hunter and Santa Claus both have been suggested as being gods that degenerated over time into mere folklorish faerie beings. An example of the opposite effect is Heracles who was a hero who later became a god. Weland the Smith is another example, for in some books he is called a figure of folklore, and in others he is called a god, Volund, and identified with Vulcan. Herodias was linked with Diana and Hecate in medieval witchlore. Morgana of the Arthurian Cycle is really the Morrigan, the Irish raven-goddess of battle. Seth of the Bible has been identified with the Egyptian god Set. Etc, etc.

Most people have this idea from classical paganism that paganism was somehow an organized religion. But there was no canon and no uniformity of belief even in classical times. There was also much sycretism and the heathens, the people of the heath, did not make the distinctions that many of us do today. In many Christian countries, even now, the common folk treat saints as though they are gods, and in religions like Santeria they actually are gods. Only learned folk make meaningless distinctions, because they are fond of distinctions, as they are of fitting each little thing into its own neat little box.

Among modern pagans today almost anything can be a god if considered as such, even a tree, because the Godforce inhabits all things. Joseph Campbell's &quot;The Masks of God&quot; is a good study of the meaning of gods and their relationship to humans and to the rest of nature. But even if Earendel was not commonly considered to be a god, this does not invalidate my claim about Earendil. The identification between stars and mariners is too obvious to be a coincidence. I believe Tolkien made this identification and hence Earendil is both a star and a mariner in his mythology.

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[HerenIstarion]

Wight
Posts: 199
gods and heroes


I see the general opinion, and agree (in general), still why begin the line with gods and not otherwise - are you sure that the gods were diminished into mere folklore personnages, and not the other way round?

that would seem to be truth almost upside down

JRRT, On Fairy-stories

I mean, not that God of witches is dwindled into Robin Goodfellow, and not that God is derived from above named Robin, but the process begins on the both ends of the line. There may have been some God of Witches, and there may have been someone Robin, and they are boiled toghether in the Pot Of Fairy Story (quote from JRRT again), coming out boiled into one lump of mythology

That concerns mainly creatures of 'human origin', as gods may be, still, there are lot of them wich are not - all of those dragons, monsters etc. why not make distinction between those?


Edited by: HerenIstarion at: 11/11/00 12:41:30 am

[The Black Lieutenant]

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Re: gods and heroes

Yes, some of them evolved from the bottom up. And some of them became blended together through identification (some might say confusion) in the popular mind. Santa Claus is most likely an example of this, since one of his origins is said to be an actual person, Saint Nicholas. But Saint Nicholas did not ride through the sky in a sleigh pulled by reindeer, nor did he have elves in his employ.

Pot of Fairy Story . . . I like that. It's a bubbling brew in the cauldron of imagination.

To answer your other question, by mythological figures I meant, for the most part, the anthropomorphic ones. (I say for the most part because there is the Native American figure of folklore, Coyote, an example of the Trickser archetype and therefore also a god). Mythological creatures, such as trolls and dragons, I do not refer to as gods, though they are formed of the same stuff. This is not to say they can't be gods. But they are generally not named, and a god must have a name. Certain named individuals, like the dwarf Alberich, can be considered gods though. Alberich means &quot;Elf Kingdom&quot; I believe, and the French version of his name, Auberon, gives us Oberon, who is the King of Faerie, and therefore a god.

It's all God . . .



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[HerenIstarion]

Wight
Posts: 201
godlings

Oberon, who is the King of Faerie, and therefore a god

Certainly not.

There is a distinction between God that made and gods that are made. All abovenamed (Santa Claus, Oberon etc) are [mere?] products of human imagination (even if the prototypes really existed), some kind of subcreative act, and may be considered as gods at all only if they are beleived on a degree when one who created (in a sense) them (human) starts to worship them. As far as I know Oberon may have been feared, or admired, but never have been worshipped. So I must assume he is a King of Faerie (If it's really him to be called so), and therefore not the God. As for Santa, one can call him a mess, a joke, a nursary-tale hero, but not a god certainly.

[The Black Lieutenant]

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Re: godlings

Well, yes, if you put it that way, that a god must be worshipped, I can see your point. But many Witches do worship Oberon as a god, and consider Santa Claus another variant of the Holly King, who is an archetypal god of Winter amongst Witches today.

God which creates, the Creator, the Source, the Absolute, is beyond human ability to conceive. Any concept of God is both created by the human imagination and yet is also a mask of the Absolute, which cannot be conceived. Thus Yahweh/Jehovah, Allah, and any other God which has attributes that we humans ascribe to them is not the Absolute, but rather a god-form, and therefore equal to all other god-forms, and just as much products of the human imagination as you say.

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[HerenIstarion]

Wight
Posts: 202
Re: godlings

But moving in that direction makes it unnecessary for any creature to obtain mithologycal origins - we may count among gods some living men - i.e. some rock stars, worshipped by their fans, or soap opera heroes etc

Any concept of God is both created by the human imagination and yet is also a mask of the Absolute, which cannot be conceived

As for that, you can say so about any thing on earth and beyond it, things that are in a primary world, or are only might-have-beens, or visions of any persons imagination. A stone on a road is merely a stone, a mineral with some concrete characteristics, still one who saw it with his own eyes can tell about it to another one miles away from a place where the stone was first spotted. One naming stone with the word stone takes part in creation of all stones by human imagination, giving all of the different stones one mask of stone as stone.

...but what they are really like, and what lies beyond them, only those can say who have climbed them...

[Mithadan]

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Re: godlings

Saulotus: Sorry I didn't respond to your query. I've been tremendously occupied during the past week (maybe someday I can say with what but I can't right now). Anyway, glad you were intrigued by Tales. As for Aelfwine, JRRT liked the concept and so did I. While Aelfwine fell out of JRRT's works, at least partially, it appears he was not abandoned, as you know. He pops up now and again even in JRRT's post-LoTR work and even appears in his late work (see HoME 12).

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[The Black Lieutenant]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 19</TD><TD><img src=http://www.geocities.com/mouth_of_sauron/sauron.gif WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: godlings

Yes, of course you can say that about anything in the universe. As I said, it's all God. As Kant put it, we live in the phenomenal world, and it is only phenomena that we can ever hope to understand; i.e., things as they appear. But behind the phenomenal world is the numenal world, the Absolute. It is beyond comprehension, or else it would not be numenal, but phenomenal. This is the world of things as they are.

I hear and behold God in every object, yet understand God not in the least (Walt Whitman)

And humans have become gods. Augustus, Claudius, Jesus, Rastafari, etc. These were/are but men, yet the god-form itself is equal to any other god-form. If a tree can become a god, why not a man? You could think of it this way: the archetypes, which belong to the numenal world, or at least are the nexus wherein the numenal and phenomenal world intersect, take on the likenesses of these forms within the human imagination, just as the Ainur took on anthropomorphic likenesses and became the Valar.

In animistic faiths, the whole phenomenal world is considered to be alive, imbued with Spirit, or spirits (it matters little, as singular and plural designations are meaningless in the numenal world). Animists understand that beyond the phenomenal world there exists a numenal world (although not in the way Kant understood it) which is Spirit.

But the numenal world can never be known by us, for we ourselves are phenomena. If we entered the numenal world, we would no longer be what we are. Yet as I said the numenal interfaces with the phenomenal world, and all religions deal with some aspect of that connexion.

http://www.geocities.com/mouth_of_sauron/ </a> </img>
I am the Lieutenant of <a href=http://pub28.ezboard.com/blugburz>Lugburz</a>, a member of the <a href=http://www.tolkienboards.cjb.net/>Tolkien EZBoard Network</a>. I am also the High Priest of <a href=http://www.crosswinds.net/~darkbanecircle/>Darkbane Circle</a>, an online coven.

Attention RPG fanatics! Come <a href=http://pub28.ezboard.com/flugburzfrm5.showMessageRange?topicID=15.topic&sta rt=83&stop=83>play my game!</a></p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000277>The Black Lieutenant</A> at: 11/12/00 2:46:43 pm

[HerenIstarion]

Wight
Posts: 203
Sixth proof of God's existence

If I am allowed to put it in in a simpler way, a Christian (not a philosopher, but an ordinary man) can make a distinction otherwise: God, in whom he believes, and all of them idols, or false gods, including abovenamed Augustus and Claudius and all the rest of the best, to whom I was implying naming rock stars and soap opera heroes, whom you may consider idols as well

[HerenIstarion]

Deadnight Chanter
Posts: 1293
Re: Orcish Fëar

Leaving aside the stray topics inside this thread, I would like to summarize the general ideas of this one. So, here we go:

1. Orcs have different origins, including beasts, men and elves. Great orcish leaders (Boldog) were orcish hroa inhabited by corrupted Maiar.
2. Those of beast origin need direct control of evil mind (i.e. Morgoth or Sauron) to act with some purpose, otherwise they “stray aimlessly”.
3. The elvish and mannish orcs are capable of independent action in those “good old days”, when Sauron is out of the stage.
4. The elvish and mannish orcs definitely have fear.
5. The elven-orcish fëa has a right of elvish one to go to Mandos, repent and rebuild its hroa, yet it is not certain what would be it’s physical appearance – that of an orc, for hroa is rebuild out of fëa’s memories of it, or, repenting, it acquires ability to rebuild for it proper purely elven hroa. On the other side, is has the right to refuse the summons and remain in Hither Lands as houseless ghost or wraith.
6. Mannish fëa goes out of the confines of the world
7. Orcs are capable to be interbred with men even in the third age, thus acts Saruman, as well as Sauron, producing new type of “man-orc”
8. Beast-orcs must be considered innocent in a way, for they are just tormented and perverted animals, Kevlar with no free will
9. Elven and Mannish orcs posses free will, as all the Children of Eru, however suppressed by horror of Dark Lord, therefore they are not irredeemable and must be considered sinners, even those natural born ones, thus being distinguished from beast-orcs. Elvish and Mannish orcs know the Good from the Evil and appreciate the good (see Shagrat and Gorbag converse, were “elvish trick” of leaving companions is evaluated to be bad, and generally ascribed to the other side)
10. All the Orcs hate the Dark Lord for what was done to them, but the hatred is suppressed by horror, and they hate peoples of free and good will still more.
11. Elven-Orcs specially dislike the elves proper, and receive the same feeling from the other side.
12. Elven-orcs have usual elven longivety, therefore , for instance, some of themcan recall and recognize items of several thousand years of age (Orcrist and Glamdring recognized by oercs in “The Hobbit”)

[HerenIstarion]

Deadnight Chanter
Posts: 1485
Re: Orcish Fëar

to Bob Wehadababyitsaboy, jallanite, Aiwendil, or any who may have concern

Since this topic has it's main concern with orcs, I will ask a question answer to which I once knew, but I've forgotten it. In First Age orcs had special name for the Noldor (similar as they called Gondorians Tarks in Third). I stumbled upon it somewhere in HoME series, but I can't remember where. Maybe, if you remember, to post it here would be very kind of you, for I (oh, shame on me ) even asked this as a question in trivia, and than, as nobody answered for several weeks, totally forgot the answer myself


...but what they are really like, and what lies beyond them, only those can say who have climbed them...

[jallanite]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Moderator
Posts: 61</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Orcish Fear

I do not remember the word, HereIstarion.

But, to your previous post, I have two points to add on Orkish fëar, both from Morgoth's Ring (HoME 10), &quot;Myths Transformed&quot;, VIII, Orcs. Both are on the fate of Orks after death.

On the Úmaiar Orks:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> The least could have been primitive (and much more powerful and peilous) Orcs; but by practising when embodied procreation they would (cf. Melian) [become] more and more earthbound, unable to return to spirit-form (even in demon-form), until released by death (killing), and they would dwindle in force. When released they would, of course, like Sauron, be 'damned': i.e. reduced to impotence, infinitely recessive: still hating but unable more and more to make it effective physically (or would not a very dwindled dead Orc-state be a poltergeist?<hr></blockquote>

On the Elven Orks:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ****It remains therefore terribly possible there was an Elvish strain in the Orcs. These may then even have been mated with beasts (sterile!)*** and later Men. Their life-span would be diminished. And dying they would go to Mandos and be held in prison till the End.<hr></blockquote>Apparently no refusing of the summons?

</p>

[Bob Wehadababyitsaboy]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased
Posts: 10</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Orcish Fear

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> In first age orcs had special name for the Noldor (similar as they called Gondorians Tarks in third). I stumbled upon it somewhere in HoME series, but I can't remember where.<hr></blockquote>

A. Golug.

Try looking elsewhere, instead of in HoME and you'll find it.

</p>

[HerenIstarion]

Deadnight Chanter
Posts: 1491
Re: Orcish Fëar

To jallanite:

Apparently not, yet keeping them in Mandos till the End nevertheless means not those fëar can not repent, does it?

To Bob Wehadababyitsaboy:

Thank you

...but what they are really like, and what lies beyond them, only those can say who have climbed them...

[HerenIstarion]

Deadnight Chanter
Posts: 1496
Re: Orcish Fear

Thus it was that Túrin and Orleg were discovered, for three scouts stumbled upon them as they lay hid; and though they slew two the third escaped, crying as he ran Golug! Golug! Now that was a name which they had for the Noldor
Unfinished Tales, Turin Among the Otlaws

Bob, thank you again

* bows


As you were the only one to know the word, I invite you to proceed with the quizz thread were the qustion was asked History of ME Trivia Thread #1

...but what they are really like, and what lies beyond them, only those can say who have climbed them...

[Child of the 7th Age]

I am pulling this up because of a discussion in the Books thread.

[bombur]

Now that I became aware of this thread I simply must reply to black lieutannants and others thoughts of difference between gods and spirits and cultural heroes.


Tolkien used also Finnish legends as source materiale and in them the definition between theese is totally fluid. Tapio was the forest to the degree that moss in the treebark is his eyebrows, he is ”haltija”, an elf. And I assure you, as important source of sustenance, men were very polite to forest. As Tapio was an elf, so are the little people living in the trees of the forest. Different forms of politenes were given to them though alone single one of them is no more powerful then the village wiseman, usually less so. Ukko (old man) lived in the clouds and thunder and lightning were his crossbowbolts, he was ”haltija”, an elf. The little bearded fellows who live in the ovens of houses and help the people who are friendly to them and pester those who are not, are ”haltija's”, eleves as well. So was the lazy man Pekko who lived in the moles holes in the fields and made the beer good. Also those little people who lived in saunas, treestumps, barns, hills, swamp ponds, rocks etc. etc are eleves of various kinds. One can become the greatest musician in the world if one manages to spot a rapids elf and convinces him to teach oneself. This is dangerous though as rapids eleves are private kind of eleves and may drown trespassers. In the finnish myth the line between a spirit and godbeing has not been blurred. On the contrary. There never was line to begin with. It is not animism. Not everything has an elf living in it. A farmhouse would be very very lucky to get an elf to live in every building. The only thing you can bet on is that an elf will take residence in the most prominent tree of the house yard. There was a creator goddess, but she was rather impersonal, primeal, bare and/or element-like. She was not worshipped. She had I believe passed on and left her children in charge way before the times of the ancient finns, after all you cannot expect wind to stick around for a long time. Like some men are mighty and some are not, so was it with the eleven beings. Some eleves were more powerfull and could well be called gods and could basically be pleaded for good harvest or weather etc. Some are less powerfull and still it is wise to be friends with them as well. They well can help or hinder you.

The god-faerie thinking comes from different variations of infusing of two basic early faiths. Indo-Europeans to my knowledge brought storm-god (Ukko-Zeus-Jupiter-Belenos-Thor/Odin-Wotan) based panthenon from asian steppes to ”Proto-European” people in Europe who had previously worshipped landgoddess and various spirits. This was at the point of some thousands of years before christ. At least the Finns also have influences from Uralian shamanism. Perhaps theese influences are reason why the line between god and spirit and man has REMAINED blurred in Finnish myth. I think the line between god and spirit may ORIGINALLY have been more or less fluid in other cultures as well. In the case of Tolkien it is in many instances difficult to tell where the Valar ends and maiar begins. Moreso the distinction of who is more powerful of individuals from valar/maiar/kelvar-olvar-mortal, seems impossible to draw strictly by ”status”. The line becomes even harder to draw since at least maiar and mortal can interbreed. Finnish myth is likewise crawling with ”demigods”. So to say. Or people with eleven blood. Whichever. Väinämöinen of cource had both the blood of the creator goddes and men. The likes of us mortals have only various slight degrees of the blood of lesser eleves in our veins.

There is no contemporary literary of theese things since the ancient Finnish culture was illiterary one, but some things persist and are studied in oral tradition. For example our santa claus is still called yule-goat though he looks a bit like st. Nicholas. He brings presents (personally) but is scary figure to a degree. He is bribed with a drink to moisten his

[bombur]

(Computer problems it seems)

...throat dried by the weariness of travel. Children must play with him or sing to him. He might get angry as he is old and bit cranky, but basically he is forgiving and kind deep down. His elves look just like the barn-eleves of ancient finns. They are small, bearded and old. They wear grey coats and red hoodlike caps and cannot usually be seen. This image has somewhat altered when the idea of santas eleves spread from Finland to other contries [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] . Most finnish people do not know why their christmas decorations include little goats made of starw. I personally still feel uneasy, unless the christmas dinner is left on the table overnight as the custom is. Only some time ago I learned that this must be done so that the house eleves can come and feast in the night. The traditional Finnish santa claus is synthesis of the house eleves who had to be appeased so that they’d give their gift of help in the good housekeeping and of the make-believe eleves played by (elderly?) men who toured house to house on the second yuleday to play with children around a big straw goat. Lately it has taken some external influences, so it is more closely related to coca cola then st. nicholas. Traditions change, but traces of magic remain in the deeper woods of Europe. After all, as long as we think it brings good luck to toss one good steam when leaving sauna in the christmass eve, the sauna eleves get their yule sauna no matter if the real reason could not be said to the priests for centuries. Many foundation stones of new buildings still have coin in them, even though almost none remember why. There is no fundamental difference between those haltijat who had to flee and those who were small and minor enough to hide. After all when leaving this mortal land after the coming of the son of Mary to depose him, Väinämöinen, the old demigod-singer-wiseman left song behind in the forests for us. And after all he did make us a promise: "Let time pass : A day goes, another comes : Again I’ll be needed : looked after, longed for : To bring forth new sampo: To make a new song : To haul a new moon : To let a new day : When there is no moon, no sun : No joy without price.”


Janne Harju

[HerenIstarion]

Welcome to the Downs Janne [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

I can not deny that all the superstitious habits practised by so-called "civilised" man are left overs of what once was a belief (in a sense of worship) But is't arguable would the return to such practice (fully realising you're leaving food for elves, not doing thus in honor of tradition) be vary much reasonable. Some kind of step back, methinks

[bombur]

Step back from what? You believe in god?

I can offer the same amount of proof to validate either.

You see, what I am trying to say is that here people have stopped believing in eleves only in the 20th century, or majority of the urban people in the previous two, degree by degree.

I am totally unmoved by religion... not even opposing it like many atheists seem to.

I am not so sure that eleves (god) do not exist.

Strange observation though... many things the eleves used to want us to do have some practical, way of life - purpose.

If the barn elf is satisfied, it'll protect stored wheat from rot. And it wants things like keeping it's dwelling clean and neat. Funny.

Before building one should sleep a night out and let the ground elevs say if they do not want building in that place... not a far cry from feng shui.

Yes, I leave food out on the table at days of celebration. It is also nice bonus to get to wake up every now and then and nibble a bit.

And can you claim to KNOW that the spirit world HAS fully separated from ours? Or that eleves have left theese forests, have you been in them?

[img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Anyways, my point was that in some myth man/spirit/god difference is a line drawn to water if even that moreso then asserting that there is still drips of magic left in the finnish forests.

[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]


Janne Harju

[Tirned Tinnu]

*Tinnu puts her hands into the attitiude of prayer*
Black Lieutenant, you said:

Incidentally, Earendil comes from the Germanic god Earendel, who was the god associated with the Morning or Evening Star, and this could be any bright planet seen at twilight, whether Venus, Mars, or Mercury. Earendel was a god of mariners because stars were essential to navigation.

I beg you! Please make another thread with more information on the Germanic Gods? Or PM me with a source. I am keen to learn more of the Tribes' Gods, as they have not been studied/mentioned here in my local schooling.

NOW. All this Orcish titter-tatter makes my ears ring! I long ago decided that while there were more Elves on MI that the Orcs would have been twisted Elves.
When the Men took over, and there were few Elves to be found, it would make more sense to use Men, then, wouldn't it?!
*Shaking her head*
If Tolkien said it in an interview, or in a letter, I will adhere to it. Simple as that. The story changed, that's all. Being a writer is going to be a tough thing, if people are going to rip and tear at your former copies!
I should burn mine, so as not to have all this quibbling.
However, the noise made in here had brought up several points about other things that I desire to learn about.
*Puts in her earplugs*
Tittir-tatter on, I say, therefore. I'll just enjoy the fire. Yell if you stumble on something else! (Or pull out one of my earplugs.) [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[HerenIstarion]

Tirned Tinnu

Black Liuetenant is rare guest at BD lately. Try looking for him by following link in his sig (lugburz)

BTW, Vast amounts of knowledge concerning Nordic mythologies are stored in Sharku's mind

bombur

who said all of them things do not exist? [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] "not believing" was used in a sense "not worshipping"