Organization of this forum...

[The Barrow-Wight]

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For now I have placed this under The Books, but it may end up being its own category with different forums under it. Add new topics or continue existing threads in whatever manner seems appropriate.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

[Mithadan]

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new board

OK. I'm impressed. Weren't we just talking about a separate forum about 5 hours ago? Thanks.

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[lindil]

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Re: new barrow in thew downs

I go to work for a few hours and already a new barrow has been added to the downs!

</p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

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Re: new barrow in thew downs

I've got to make room for the Newly Deceased! But it has been soooooo long since we had a new one in here.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

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First Step

Our first step needs to get everyone on the same page.... really. Many people do not have all of HoME and other books (I don't), so we need to come up with a list, an index, of the chapters and books that contain the information we'll need for this project.

This in itself will be a large first effort for the group, but it is one that must be done if we are to proceed with any semblance of order.

I like the idea (I forget who said it) of annotating the Sil. (as an aid to this project, not as its purpose) By referencing the parts of the Sil. that are in conflict with HoME we can have a solid outline to work with.

So....lets start with the Sil.
Which parts of the Sil are in direct conflict with HoME and JRRTs desired purpose?

So, will



The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

[lindil]

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Re: may I suggest 3 stages

&quot;That is the the purpose for which you are called hither.Called, I say, though I have not called you to me ,strangers from distant lands . You have come and are here met, in this very nick of time, by chance it may seem. Yet it is not so.Believe rather that it is so orderd that we who sit here ... must now find counsel...&quot;
-Elrond Half-Elven

I couldn't resist so apropos a qoute
[even though I doctored it a bit ]
After reading the last 2 qoutes fr. the &quot;myths transformed thread&quot; , assumptions I thought we shared I discovered were -assumptions !<img src=eek.gif ALT=":eek">

I think the Annotated Silma. idea has merit , but at the moment the last 2 posts went up I was busy w/ this { formally at the Myth's transformed thread}

as a proposal of sorts..I am looking at the task of the forum/ council in a few different stages.
if any one shares this way of going about please 2nd it and we can keep it up for more formal consideration -if not - I will happily smite it's very existence from this site.
what do people think - do we want formal or informal - there are pro's and con's to both sides - but I think the whole matter will be so intricate that w/ out a formal process - that we have agreed on we my have a knot as complex as the one we are trying to unravel and reweave. well prob. not but
anyway:

May I suggest 3 stages
to begining this.
#1 to establish Procedures and Protocol {P&amp;P} robert's rules o' order [or any system known -that works
and a decision on who is going to have a say{ I go into this in detail below.
{#2}preliminary Q's to be resolved BEFORE debating the drafts/texts proper. such as
the scope and legalities of the work
old narsilliion/flat earth or
work from what we can determine of JRRT's final vision.
and: thechoice of wether we shall use editorial[ that means written by us} links or not.ETC...

Between this and the white council there has been some great discussion already. and once the P&amp;P is settled I hope to get these idea's up.
#3 the work on the drafts itself.

------------ so here are my details re: #1 so far:

-------
PROPOSAL A-1[a-d]
choose one or none or add idea[A1e, etc.]
-------
A1a&quot;MEMBERSHIP&quot;w/ requirements
---- I propose no restrictions on the debating and voting of the P&amp;P 's [#1] but that voting on #2 and #3 be resricted to people who have read the relevant texts {which I C.Wraith has asked be listed for each text/discussion/ proposal}
-----A1b- ------
OPEN FORUM [no requirements or membership
{ this would allow any one who has or has NOT read the texts in question to vote -which to my mind makes no sense-yet others may have reasons for this I have not thought of.

----or A1c ---as Taimar[ assuming I have understood him aright} has suggested an editorial board of 3-4 people who would have final say as to what goes into the work and what would be left out. w/ a larger group of 15-20 to act as an advisory group---------------
proposalA1d-- I offer an amend ment to Taimars proposal { although I favor A1a} retaining his editorial board but having an open advisory board free to all who wish to click on. [he goes into detail w/later stages -so I will pass over that]
---------
if you want to go down this road at all please post your comments using
the A1 [a-d] system [until someone comes up w/ a better one-and if you wish to add an amendment please continue the same style of notation. A1e, etc.
thats all for now.
p.s.
after the previous 2 messages maybe people are thinking way less formally- I am more or less following up on the white council idea's which are obviously not all on this site.


</p>Edited by <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000076>lindil</A> at: 7/25/00 3:35:50 pm

[galpsi]

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Re: may I suggest 3 stages

If you are sure that you already know who your participants are, then you may not need to worry about Kittle's request that (the rest of us) be brought up to speed about which books and chapters, etc.
The way you are charging forward at present, it seems as though you are not interested in whether (or not) any of the rest of us get backgrounded enough to participate in your council.
While I can appreciate that you believe in proceeding in an orderly fashion, i.e.ground-rules, etc., Kittle's suggestion that those of us who have not (already) been in this discussion for a long time seems entirely sensible. Extensive ground-rules will be totally impertinent if you don't have participants who are both willing and able to participate. Which, in this case, mostly means participants who have had a suitable opportunity to acquaint themselves with the relevant texts.
From my limited experience with boards, I would argue that finding (and keeping) enough people who are interested in a long-term commitment -- and not just an initial burst of enthusiasm -- will be more important to your eventual (failure or) success than any other aspect of the project.
Unless, as previously inquired, you really already know who your participants are and you just wanted a venue.(?)

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[lindil]

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Re: may I suggest 3 stages

Taimar, Mithadan , the Cheif-Wight and myself have all expressed desire to give this a go {and at least 1 person from the white council}.
Maybe I am missing something{it is not rare} -but it seems to me that spending time on ground rules{ wich would have essentially - nothing to do w/ the texts} would give anyone interested a good bit of time to get up to speed.
As to to the books involved when we do start ,do we want to start at the Begining w/ the Ainulindale?
if so then besides the Silmarillion , I imagine one would want to have { or at least be familiar with} HoME 1,4 and 10 specifically
Michael Martinez said give the ground rules a year [?!] and while it may or may not take that long
I would hope that the months that I imagine my proposed stages 1 and 2 taking would hopefully give anyone interested enough time to come up to speed.
I am delighted people want to do it and I am hopeful the group will find a good pace. <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

</p>Edited by <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000076>lindil</A> at: 7/26/00 3:26:37 am

[The Barrow-Wight]

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Re: may I suggest 3 stages

I have 1-4, but not 10-12.... I will go to the store tomorrow to see if they either of the last three. Which ( 10-12 ) would you recommend first as I can only afford one at a time (being on a budget)?

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

[lindil]

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Re: may I suggest 3 stages

I live in the bay area of ca. where the used books stores have a fair selection of HoME hardback's [except 3 -which I am looking for]
and I have seen copies of 10-12 poking around -as often as not under literature-not sf/fant.
so a call to all the used book stores you may have may save you 10 or more $,a piece-# 10 deals specifically w/ the last major treatment of the Silm. in valinor { #11 was written durng the same periods chronologically but focuses on beleriand wars[hence the name]- so not as pertinent to &quot;The Ainulindale&quot; except for a long piece &quot;Quendi and Eldar&quot; and 12 is the LotR app. drafts and miscellany} .
The owner of 'another change of hobbit' -in berkeley says that 6-12 are all still available as hardback so any local seller should be able to get them if not in stock. {5 also ?}.
And I have only just looked at 6-9 so I am assumig there are no grand 1st age and earlier revelations there [although I have yet to see any one sight them for such contents].
hope that helps.

</p>Edited by <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000076>lindil</A> at: 7/26/00 3:41:03 am

[Mithadan]

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Re: may I suggest 3 stages

RKittle - Morgoth's Ring, The War of the Jewels and Peoples of Middle Earth are probably the three best of the HoME series so far as providing information not appearing in any previously published work. If you can only get one, choose Morgoth's Ring. It contains some astounding texts. Next best is Peoples of Middle Earth (War of the jewels has some good stuff but consists mostly of the second half of the Silm.).

Lindil - While I would like to help on this project, at this point decision-making and participation should be broad based to get as many people involved as possible. This process should resemble a democracy rather than a fiefdom if any success is to be acheived. We need broad-based acceptance, rather than risking being viewed as some form of elitists.

I have read all 8 volumes of HoME relating to the First Age, some more than once, and have read the &quot;primary works&quot; innumerable times. Nonetheless, I decline to believe that someone who has read less or less often than I cannot provide valuable insight. Case in point -- I first read the Hobbit 18 years ago and have re-read it many times since, but I never noticed that Thranduil's hair is described as &quot;golden&quot; until the last time (see thread &quot;revelation about Legolas&quot.

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[lindil]

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Re: may I suggest 3 stages

Mithadan I agree completely about broad-based support-which is why
I asked Cheif-wraith about notifying other boards [to get more folks on board and also why I supported an open[but informed ] voting policy on the debates proper.


I understood Chief-W. to want to hold off on announcements and Galpsi and Cheif understandably want time to get up to speed-which is why I thought - a bit of energy into the non-literary infrastucture would be a good stop-gap activity.
since I have yet to see that this does not need some ground rules - and I have tried to put up all I have seen proposed here and at the [ alas] now
vanished White Council thread and a few of my own and none seem to be currentl acceptable -nor the tone of its presentation.
I have no wish for it to be a fiefdom -if so I would have jumped on Taimar's idea of small ruling board etc.[which I endorsed only as a #2 choice and w/ an amendment to it opening the 'advisory board ' to all.
I am happy to wait{ I have been going over the various versions of
the Ainulindale in silm {it is got to be one of the most powerful things I have read by him} and have turned to the lost tales 1 andHoME 4 today.

I am certainly not tied to any one wat and I do certainly want as many minds as possible on.
I if I understood Chief-Wight aright yesterday he seemed to say that all activities WOULD be open to all . then that sounds like an executive decision we can all live with
{ although we have yet to hear in from Taimar}

I will probably go ahead and delete my proposal in the next day or so and let things gel as they will.

Cheif- did you want to wait on trying to get a bigger crowd until this subsection was created or are there other factors we should wait on?
by the way out of an unusual visit to amazon to read reviews of HoME an extremely sensitve reviewr of Morgith's Ring{ and other books on Byzantium} asked at the end of her review if any one was trying to tie all this great additional material into the Silmarillion. Needless to say, I invited her to the downs.
&quot;A chance meeting as we say in Middle-Earth&quot;

</p>Edited by <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000076>lindil</A> at: 7/26/00 11:01:13 am

[The Barrow-Wight]

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Re: may I suggest 3 stages

Here are some more thoughts:

I - Formalization of the Council
The actual construction of the New Sil. (NS) must be formally controlled, but there must be an informal way for anyone/everyone to (1)join/add to discussions; (2) submit suggestions, material, etc.; (3) See the progress of the NS.

II - Enthusiatic Particpation
In order to ensure as many people as possible will participate in the NS, it must be:
(1) enjoyable to participate in;
(2) accessable;
(3) timely (a year spent in committee to decide on how it will be run will be a year the NS will lose potential supporters)

III - Membership
Everyone interested should now formally submit their name to the project. Post a message in the new forum titled Members. This way we know who wants to play.

Final thoughts
Let's pick a topic and run with it NOW. As we go, we can develop the Procedures and Protocol. This way the project and the rules controlling it can evolve together. Having defined goals will keep enthusiasm and participation high.

btw ... I am in no way trying to be 'in charge' with all of these thoughts. I just thought I'd share my tho

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

[Taimar]

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Re: may I suggest 3 stages

Lindil, my idea about a small editorial group was prompted by the worry that `too many cooks spoil the broth`. I am quite happy to go along with whatever consensus is reached by everyone who wishes to take part in the project.

After reading what has been posted I think that RKittle`s proposal about a series of articles, essays and discussions is a good way to start. Once we have some solid material we could then consider if it would be possible to draw everything into a more cohesive format.

Look into the http://www.fortunecity.co.uk/library/classiccourt/77/Mirror of Desire.</a> </p>

[lindil]

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we have consensus...

then it's a go.<img src=smile.gif ALT="">

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[Mithadan]

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Re: we have consensus...

By the way, this general topic happened to come up at Fingolfin's board a couple of weeks ago. So that I am perfectly clear (R. Nixon, 1973) and have made full disclosure (O. North, c. 1985), in that thread I stated that the Sil. and HoME are the best we're going to get and no author that I know of is qualified to undertake a rewrite of the Sil. In the legal profession, this is known as a prior inconsistent statement.

I make this disclosure so that I do not later get caught with my pants down (B. Clinton,199<img src=cool.gif ALT="8)"> . Besides, the idea of presenting some of the most controversial topics from Middle Earth and trying to reach consensus in the face of withering criticism sounds like...... well, it sounds like Dagor Bragollach....... but it also sounds like fun. Lets have at it!

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