Riddles in the Downs

[Urwen]

The textual source is LOTR, right?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

The textual source is LOTR, right?

A very specific bit of LOTR, yes.


Editing to repost on new page:


When spring unfolds the beechen leaf upon a sunny day,
When endless the assent, and pointless seems the long foray,
When red the walls and bleak the view and black smoke fills the air -
You must turn back! You must return! You must not linger here!

When mountain peaks loom in the sky and day to twilight fades,
When friend unlooked for's seen again, and friend long-missed awaits,
When enemy is tracking you like hunter tracks his prey -
You must remain and carry on, you have no other way.

When what is dear is tarnished by malevolence and guile,
Old friends are fallen on the road, and homes in ruin lie,
When barrow holds what little treasures left the hill intact -
Don't linger here beneath the stars! Return! You must turn back!

When battle breaks and prophecies of old will come to pass,
When you are taking up the tale from heroes of the past,
When tempests rage and vessels sail to build, save, and depart -
You must stay here and carry on, you must fulfill your part.

You know that you must walk this road together with a friend,
But what saw you before all this, which he saw at the end?

[Huinesoron]

Okay, so stanza 1:

...the flowers may rise in Spring, the trees may bud... and swaying beeches...

Up, up he went. ... At last, weary and feeling finally defeated...

Hard and cruel and bitter was the land that met his gaze... from it rose in huge columns a swirling smoke... Sam beheld Mount Doom, and the light of it... now glared against the stark rock faces, so that they seemed to be drenched with blood.

There he halted and sat down... if once he went beyond the crown of the pass and took one step veritably down into the land of Mordor, that step would be irrevocable. He could never come back.

All four are from various parts of The Tower of Cirith Ungol, but what I can't do is tie it in to the rest of the riddle. By the time we hit ruined homes and barrows I am completely at sea.

Final thought: back in The Stairs of Cirith Ungol, Sam directly says that "we're in the same tale still"; which could be the source of the "taking up the tale" line.

But I can't bring enough of this together to make a guess.

hS

[Galadriel55]

Up, up he went. ... At last, weary and feeling finally defeated...

This is the correct "ascent". However, it is not the correct section of text. The other passages are irrelevant. As you say, it kinda falls apart and you can't make the other lines work in that setting.

Take this info and pair it with Urwen's second-to-last post, that will give you the text you need.

Final thought: back in*The Stairs of Cirith Ungol, Sam directly says that "we're in the same tale still"; which could be the source of the "taking up the tale" line.

Though I am not referencing this line, I am definitely referencing this concept, though illustrated differently. Actually, doing a bit of reading for this riddle made me think of how much more prevalent this theme is in LOTR in more subtle ways, though only voiced that time by Sam.

[Urwen]

I've figured it out!

When spring unfolds the beechen leaf upon a sunny day, - There was sun shining, and the branches of trees were waving and tossing in the wind
When endless the assent, and pointless seems the long foray, - Then he seemed to see himself going along a dim passage, and climbing
an endless winding stair.
When red the walls and bleak the view and black smoke fills the air - a large red-brick building was being put up where it had stood; Black smoke seemed to cloud the surface of the Mirror
You must turn back! You must return! You must not linger here! - ‘I can’t stay here,’ he said wildly. ‘I must go home. They’ve dug up Bagshot Row, and I must go home!’

When mountain peaks loom in the sky and day to twilight fades, - Mountains loomed dark in the distance against a pale sky
When friend unlooked for's seen again, and friend long-missed awaits, - Far away a figure came slowly down the road, faint and small at first, but growing larger and clearer as it approached; Brief and small but very vivid he caught a glimpse of Bilbo walking restlessly about his room.
When enemy is tracking you like hunter tracks his prey - Then the Eye began to rove, searching this way and that; and Frodo knew with certainty and horror that among the many things that it sought he himself was one.
You must remain and carry on, you have no other way.

When what is dear is tarnished by malevolence and guile, - The Scouring of the Shire
Old friends are fallen on the road, and homes in ruin lie, - he saw Frodo with a pale face lying fast asleep under a great dark cliff
When barrow holds what little treasures left the hill intact - there’s the poor old Gaffer going down the Hill with his bits of things on a barrow.
Don't linger here beneath the stars! Return! You must turn back! - 'I must go home!’

When battle breaks and prophecies of old will come to pass, - A smoke as of fire and battle arose, and again the sun went down in a burning red that faded into a grey mist
When you are taking up the tale from heroes of the past, - Huey explained this one
When tempests rage and vessels sail to build, save, and depart - and into the mist a small ship passed away, twinkling with lights
You must stay here and carry on, you must fulfill your part. - Being a mayor etc

You know that you must walk this road together with a friend, - ‘No, I’ll go home by the long road with Mr. Frodo, or not at all,’ he said. ‘But I hope I do get back some day. If what I’ve seen turns out true, somebody’s going to catch it hot!’
But what saw you before all this, which he saw at the end? - ‘There’s only stars, as I thought,’ he [Sam] said; and Frodo found that he was looking at the cool stars twinkling in
the silver basin


(Is that it?)

[Galadriel55]

Yes!!! You got it!

Explanation is mostly very much on point. A couple lines were intended differently, but it doesn't change the answer.

Old friends are fallen on the road - "There’s that Ted Sandyman a-cutting down trees as he shouldn’t. They didn’t ought to be felled: it’s that avenue beyond the Mill that shades the road to Bywater." This whole stanza is still Sam seeing the marring of the Shire.

Stanza 4 generally speaks about Frodo's vision of things in the distant past or future, which he might not yet understand.

When battle breaks and prophecies of old will come to pass, - "prophecies" is the most loose line, referring vaguely to Aragorn's return as King hitting Paths of the Dead en route, which in combination sorta fulfills multiple legends. The first part is correctly identified to the exact quote.

When you are taking up the tale from heroes of the past, - "many swift scenes followed that Frodo in some way knew to be parts of a great history in which he had become involved". Specifically he sees the arrival of Elendil & co and the founding of Gondor, a story that must be completed by the Return of the King, the Battle for Gondor, and the destruction of the Ring.

When tempests rage and vessels sail to build, save, and depart - Then he saw against the Sun, sinking blood-red into a wrack of clouds, the black outline of a tall ship with torn sails riding up out of the West (ship coming to build Gondor); And then again a ship with black sails, but now it was morning again, and the water rippled with light, and a banner bearing the emblem of a white tree shone in the sun (ship coming to save Gondor; and into the mist a small ship passed away, twinkling with lights (ship departing Middle-earth).

And, like you have rightly concluded, the thing Sam sees at first and Frodo sees at the end of their visions, is the reflection of STARS in the Mirror.

The floor is yours! *bows out*

[Urwen]

How about a simpler one?

He's done much for our welfare
So your lives I shall spare
But our leader he did slay
So you may not stay
And I shall meet his father, if here he finds his way
But you shall not, for you'll be far away

[Galadriel55]

Not as easy as you think

This gives me Scouring vibes a bit - Frodo urges to spare Saruman's life due to former helpfulness, but banishes him and Wormtongue from the Shire. Among other things, the fate of Lothi comes up (the killed leader). But the father makes no sense, and "he" would have to refer to both Saruman and Grima.

[Urwen]

That's not it. This, too, is from a very specific source.

Also, the 'he' in the fifth line refers to 'father'.

The 'he' in the first line, the 'father', the speaker and the addressees are all different people, by the way, though loosely connected.

[Huinesoron]

This is very frustrating, because I feel like it's lurking just below the level of memory. I can so nearly feel it.

A wandering father ("finds his way") will always make me think of Hurin, but I don't think Turin had anyone with him in Brethil. Did some of his bandits show up for the Wanderings of Hurin? But then they would have to still be there when Hurin arrived, which is the opposite of what the riddle says.

The exile part also makes me think of Orodreth's words to Celegorm and Curufin, but that doesn't fit well. I do feel like it might be an elvish thing, but that might just be Orodreth getting in my head.

hS

[Urwen]

Oh, you're so close. So close. Just think a little more.

The riddle is a poetic reinterpretation of speaker's own words from [specific source].

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Oh, you're so close. So close. Just think a little more.

The riddle is a poetic reinterpretation of speaker's own words from [specific source].

Aha, and it really is:

Originally Posted by The Wanderings of Hurin

Here Turin son of Hurin dwelt for a time, and he delivered the land from the Serpent of England. For this I give you your lives. But he scorned Brandir, right Chieftain of Brethil, and he slew him without justice or pity. Therefore I will not harbour you here. [...] If Hurin comes [...] then I shall be here to meet him[...] But you will not. Now go!

Hardang, Chieftain of Brethil, to Asgon and his men. It must be especially bitter for them, given that Asgon's last words to Turin were telling him to go away and never come back.

hS

[Urwen]

Indeed it's so.

Although I think you meant to say 'serpent of Angband', not 'England'.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Although I think you meant to say 'serpent of Angband', not 'England'.

Oh no, yeah, in his last years Tolkien did a complete 180 on this, he changed a bunch of Silm stuff to be explicitly anti-England. The most obvious was Angband > England, but we also have Gothmog > George III and Morgoth > Elizabeth I for some reason. It's all there in NoME; part 2, I think.

Anyway!

One is ancient, ever-new
One lurks deep in shadow black
One came from stone and stone followed
One rides high but falls swift
One lies low amid the loam
But which am I?

Yeah I can't make it rhyme, sorry. (That's not a clue.)

hS