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Old 04-20-2006, 10:10 PM   #41
Boromir88
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I just wanted to point out that their is a difference between orcs and goblins in the movies.~AragornII
And as you point out that was in the movies and invented by Jackson. There is no difference between Orcs and Goblins as Tolkien points out:
Quote:
They had run a long way shouting--he could not remember how far or how long; and then suddenly they had crashed right into a group of Orcs: they were standing listening, and they did not appear to see Merry and Pippin until they were almost in their arms. Then they yelled and dozens of other goblins had sprung out of the trees. Merry and he had drawn their swords, but the Orcs did not wish to fight, and had tried only to lay hold of them, even when Merry had cut off several of their arms and hands. Good old Merry!~The Uruk-hai
There the words are used interchangeably in a couple sentences. And...
Quote:
Orcs (the word is as far as I am concerned actually derived from Old English orc ’demon’, but only because of phonetic suitability) are nowhere clearly stated to be of any particular origin. But since they are servants of the Dark Power, and later of Sauron, neither of whom could, or would, produce living things, they must be .corruptions’. They are not based on direct expierence of mine; but owe, I suppose, a good deal to the goblin tradition (goblin is used as a translation in The Hobbit, where orc only occurs once, I think),.....The name has the form orch (pl. yrch) in Sindarian and uruk in the Black Speech~Letter 144
Also, I would disagree with the assertion that Goblins are typically smaller than Orcs. They're the same and just two words to mean the same creatures as we see in The Departure of Boromir:
Quote:
There were four goblin-soldiers of greater stature.....
Bottomline, orcs=goblins, goblins=orcs...one's not smaller than the other, they're not "weaker," they're the same.
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Old 05-04-2006, 08:34 AM   #42
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They are the same thing. In The Hobbit they're all called goblins, but in TLOTR those in Moria are called goblins. I prefer TLOTR distinction.
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Old 05-04-2006, 12:43 PM   #43
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but in TLOTR those in Moria are called goblins.
No, those in Moria are referred to as both orcs and goblins. Plus, Grishnakh was an orc from Mordor and was referred to as a goblin twice:
Quote:
The hobbits felt Grishnákh's fingers twitch. 'O ho!' hissed the goblin softly.~The Uruk-hai
Quote:
Grishnákh's sword was lying close at hand, but it was too heavy and clumsy for him to use; so he crawled forward, and finding the body of the goblin he drew from its sheath a long sharp knife. With this he quickly cut their bonds.~ibid
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Old 05-05-2006, 08:29 AM   #44
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In theory they are the same species this is true however they are different races

a good example is the difference among the race of man

we've got Caucasian, Asian, Black, Hispanic

Its the same with orcs and goblins theyre overall the same however there are noticable differences
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Old 05-08-2006, 07:16 AM   #45
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Yes, I agree they're the same species.
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Old 05-30-2006, 08:35 AM   #46
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As far as I know orcs and goblins are the same thing. Just in the Hobbit, they are referred to goblins. But everywhere else, they are called orcs. So yes, they are the same.
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Old 05-30-2006, 11:06 AM   #47
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For a Wikipedia slant on this subject try:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc_(Middle-earth)#Azog

Quote:
[edit]


Orcs, goblins, and Uruk-hai

In The Hobbit, Tolkien used the word "goblins" for Orcs, because he had not yet identified the world of The Hobbit with Middle-earth (which predated The Hobbit by several decades, in early writings which would later become The Silmarillion). Fortunately Tolkien did include some references to his mythology in the Hobbit, which later allowed him to identify the lands of the Hobbit with his Middle-earth. The term "Orc" does occur, but only in an instance where Gandalf is trying to scare Bilbo by mentioning creatures of the wilderness and in the name of Thorin's sword, 'Orc-rist' ('goblin-cleaver').

In The Lord of the Rings, "Orc" is used predominantly, and "goblin" mostly in the Hobbits' speech.

As an example, a passage where the terms are used interchangeably goes:


"There were four goblin-soldiers of greater stature, swart, slant-eyed, with thick legs and large hands. They were armed with short broad-bladed swords, not with the curved scimitars usual with Orcs: and they had bows of yew, in length and shape like the bows of Men."
"The Departure of Boromir", from The Two Towers. The goblins described are Saruman's Uruk-hai.


This change can be seen either as a part of the shift towards the use of Elvish words that occurred during the period between the writing of The Hobbit and the writing of The Lord of the Rings, or a translation of the Hobbits' more colloquial manner (if we "accept" the books' authenticity and regard Tolkien merely as a translator). So essentially the race is more formally named "Orc", and "goblin" is a colloquial term for Orcs used by Hobbits and sometimes picked up by Men and Elves.

The original edition of The Hobbit and early drafts of The Lord of the Rings first used "goblin" everywhere and used "hobgoblin" for larger, more evil goblins: when "goblin" and "goblins" were replaced with "Orc" and "Orcs", Tolkien invented the terms "Uruks" and "Uruk-hai" for his stronger Orcs.


It is possible that "goblin" refers to the those of the orcish race who are not under the control of Sauron (or Morgoth), whereas using "orc" directly would refer to servants of (whichever) Dark Lord, but this is only readers' conjecture. Tolkien did mention several times that orcs were not inherently evil, something this theory would partly emphasize.
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Old 05-31-2006, 10:53 AM   #48
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Cheers! I beleive you have helped conclude this interesting debate. A toast gentlemen *click of glasses*.
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Old 05-31-2006, 12:36 PM   #49
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Tuor, I'm ok with Wikipedia's article, except for the last paragraph. As I quoted there are two times when Grishnakh is referred to as a "goblin," and he was a messenger that served Sauron directly.

I will note that it is interesting how typically "Orcs" are capitalized and "goblins" are not. Tolkien was a linguist, I've always thought that "goblins" tend more to kind of like slang, therefor uncapitalized, where "Orc" is the proper term for them. Others suggest that this creates a slight difference between the two.

But, as can be clearly shown Orcs and goblins are two words for the same thing. An orc can be called a goblin, and vice versa.
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Old 01-29-2010, 09:58 AM   #50
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Old thread I know, but my opinion is a bit different from the posts in it. First, responding to Wikipedia (quoted for interest above)...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
In The Lord of the Rings, "Orc" is used predominantly, and "goblin" mostly in the Hobbits' speech.
IIRC the actual examples in The Lord of the Rings do not reveal that goblin appears mostly when Hobbits are speaking, which gives rise to the somewhat popular idea that 'goblin' represents a Hobbit-word, while others said orc.

Quote:
As an example, a passage where the terms are used interchangeably goes:
Interchangeability is fine, but does not go far enough in my opinion.

Quote:
This change can be seen either as a part of the shift towards the use of Elvish words that occurred during the period between the writing of The Hobbit and the writing of The Lord of the Rings, or a translation of the Hobbits' more colloquial manner (if we "accept" the books' authenticity and regard Tolkien merely as a translator).
I would say the change rather reflects that Tolkien preferred the word orc to the word goblin in both sound and suitability (see below) -- neither word is Elvish in any case.

Quote:
So essentially the race is more formally named "Orc", and "goblin" is a colloquial term for Orcs used by Hobbits and sometimes picked up by Men and Elves.
But Tolkien explained that the Hobbits said orc.

And here is where I'm not sure people will agree, but to my mind orc is not a translation, but the actual word used by Hobbits. No one in Middle-earth ever said the English word 'goblin' of course -- this is a translation.


Tolkien loved words, and was finely attuned to sound and (his perception of) sound-sense. Tolkien liked the sound of orc for these creatures; it seemed to fit. And like 'Elves' for his Quendi, he knew that 'goblin' didn't really suit his goblins in any event.

And why can't orc be actual Westron? It's not very far from actual Sindarin Orch for example (which ends in a sound like in German ach, not English church). In Tolkien's day the word orc was hardly generally known, and the meaning of the Old English word (as far as JRRT was concerned) was 'demon'. The inspiration could be Primary World, but just like certain other real world inspirations, like Moria for instance, Tolkien could characterize such words as Westron or Elvish.

But how to explain his use of both orc and goblin? in the Appendices to The Lord of the Rings Tolkien reveals his mode as translator, and translation provided the answer. 'Samwise' is a translation of what other Hobbits really called Sam: Banazîr (Ban for short), for example of a name, and after The Lord of the Rings was published, Tolkien wrote a guide for translators of his book, and there he explained the relationship of orc to 'goblin':

Quote:
Orc 'This is supposed to be the Common Speech name of these creatures at that time; it should therefore according to the system be translated to English, or the language of translation. It was translated 'goblin' in The Hobbit, except in one place; but this word, and other words of similar sense in other European languages (as far as I know), are not really suitable. The orc in The Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion, though of course partly made out of traditional features, is not really comparable in supposed origin, functions, and relation to the Elves. In any case orc seemed to me, and seems, in sound a good name for these creatures. It should be retained.'

From JRRT's Guide to the Names in The Lord of the Rings
Orc is Common Speech, a name of these creatures at that time (see below where this is repeated) -- thus orc should be translated, which JRRT mostly did in The Hobbit in theory -- but despite the system, Tolkien essentially tells translators not to translate instances of orc for The Lord of the Rings, he wants it 'retained'. Why? again 'goblin' is not really suitable with respect to modern connotations and the creatures of his story, and in any case it seems to Tolkien in sound a good name for these creatures.

And when another edition of The Hobbit arose in the 1960s, Tolkien took the opportunity to explain the words to his readership at large:

Quote:
'(2) Orc is not an English word. It occurs in one or two places but is usually translated goblin (or hobgoblin for the larger kinds). Orc is the hobbits' form of the name given at that time to these creatures, and it is not connected at all with our orc, ork, applied to sea-animals of dolphin-kind.' JRRT The Hobbit
This is really all the reader needs, and nicely covers all examples in The Lord of the Rings as well. Examples help show interchangeability, but as I say this doesn't go far enough, as Tolkien's explanation allows the reader to imagine the underlying word... all instances of 'goblin' are translations of the word orc in any case (unless by context it is obvious that 'goblin' is translating another internal word, like orch), as all instances of 'Sam' are really instances of Ban in the original. There can be no distinctions here: a translator does not intend 'dog' to be distinct from hund if one has chosen English to translate an original German text.


Take any example then, and it's just a matter of the way the translator has rendered it. Any instance of 'goblin' is really an instance of orc in the imagined original -- or any instance of orc could have been translated with 'goblin'.

In the end the explanation is simple enough: the words are not only interchangeable, but one is used to translate the other (just not in every instance). No distinction of any kind is intended.

_______________

A)

There is a matter in which examples help disprove an interpretation of Tolkien's published explanation -- an interpretation (raised in the thread) which goes: since Hobgoblin refers to larger kinds, then 'goblin' refers, or possibly refers, to smaller kinds.

However Tolkien's explanation works fine as: hobgoblin refers to larger kinds, goblin refers to all kinds. If we had a compound word in English for larger dogs, like 'gredog' (greatdog) for imaginary instance, would that mean that the word 'dog' only refers to smaller kinds?

Examples show that 'goblin' is not reserved for smaller kinds, and the former interpretation will not hold up in my opinion.

B)

A futher issue involves 'unpublished' or draft texts: obviously there's nothing wrong with knowing the texts 'behind the scenes', but similar to the matter of the two towers (the question: which towers are the two towers), the simple text published by Tolkien himself can become part of a confusing muddle once draft text or letters are introduced, and be lost or obscured in the pile. Tolkien was not against changing his mind, but what he chose to reveal to his readership is distinct from alternate views he may have held at various times, which remained his private papers as far as he was concerned, by comparison.
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Old 01-29-2010, 02:46 PM   #51
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Well, if I remember correctly, I think that goblin is used earlier on and eventually stops being used in favour of orc. And yes, it is mostly used in relation to Hobbits.

I think the word goblin is used to show the orcs as creatures of legend which the Hobbits know only from stories, and so the reader can relate to it as a distant tale. I don't think that anyone other than the Hobbits ever use it in LOTR, and it fades out in narration as well.

This is probably because by this time, they are faced with the reality of the orcs, and hear everyone talk of orcs, so that makes the reader see them as what Tolkien wants- People already have images in their minds of goblins, and so do the hobbits probably, but with the word orc Tolkien makes them his own.

And since it is Frodo writing this, and we see him becoming less and less hobbitish throughout, I think this is a sign of him being more aware of the real world, and seeing orcs as living beings rather than just stories. And when they are real they are referred to as orcs by everyone else, so that is the name.

The hobbit is much more fairy-tale-ish, so I imagine the the word goblin is more appropriate here, whereas LOTR deals with the grimmer, harsher reality and so uses the word which they were called at the time, as goblin would make them seem less real. The word orc itself contains harsher sounds than goblin anyway, and we know that Tolkien thought a lot about the sound of words.

So in summary, I think that the change of the word goblin progresses into the word orc to show the change in Frodo, and his attitude towards them. I agree with Galin about orc being the Westron term, especially as it is so close to the Sindarin orch.

As a linguist, I'm sure Tolkien was aware of each, and that goblin already evokes certain images, whereas orc, (for most people, at least) is something entirely new and exciting and is what Frodo has to face (not the goblins of tales, but the living, breathing, fighting orcs).
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Old 01-29-2010, 05:20 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Eönwë
Well, if I remember correctly, I think that goblin is used earlier on and eventually stops being used in favour of orc. And yes, it is mostly used in relation to Hobbits.

I think the word goblin is used to show the orcs as creatures of legend which the Hobbits know only from stories, and so the reader can relate to it as a distant tale. I don't think that anyone other than the Hobbits ever use it in LOTR, and it fades out in narration as well.
Gimli says 'goblins' in Lothlorien (the chapter) for example (and Gamling uses 'goblin-men'), but why should the reader not think that this translates Westron orc (or whatever the plural)?

Regarding what you've suggested above, I'm not sure how it could be supported by the examples -- but anyway, as you agree that orc is Westron, your idea implies the notion that there is some other unknown Westron word Frodo is really using, which is being translated by English 'goblin'...

... but Tolkien explains 'goblin' has been used to translate orc.
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Old 01-29-2010, 06:42 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Galin View Post
Gimli says 'goblins' in Lothlorien (the chapter) for example (and Gamling uses 'goblin-men'), but why should the reader not think that this translates Westron orc (or whatever the plural)?

Regarding what you've suggested above, I'm not sure how it could be supported by the examples -- but anyway, as you agree that orc is Westron, your idea implies the notion that there is some other unknown Westron word Frodo is really using, which is being translated by English 'goblin'...

... but Tolkien explains 'goblin' has been used to translate orc.
I'm not saying that "goblin" does not mean "orc", only that as a translator, Tolkien uses the word "goblin" earlier on, and the further we go, the further we (and Frodo, who is writing the book) get into Middle Earth, so Tolkien uses the original word.

The Lothlorien thing is still in the FOTR, and maybe Gamling saying "goblin" there is meant to show Rohirric superstition (remember that they're afraid of Pukel-men, which means goblin-men), as well as his fear at the time, connecting this huge attack on the fortress with ancient tales of huge attacks on fortresses. Anyway, I think that in the Two Towers, that is the only mention of goblins by any non-hobbit, and I don't think it is ever mentioned in ROTK.

But actually, the particular passage you referred to may suggest that there is a difference between orcs and goblins, so perhaps we were wrong:
Quote:
Originally Posted by LOTR, TT, Helm's Deep
'But these creatures of Isengard, these half-orcs and goblin-men that the foul craft of Saruman has bred, they will not quail at the sun,'
However, it may show that he was just emphasising his point by using both, in which case there were in fact two different words, which complicates matters even further.
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Old 01-30-2010, 06:26 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eönwë View Post
But actually, the particular passage you referred to may suggest that there is a difference between orcs and goblins, so perhaps we were wrong:

Quote:
Originally Posted by LOTR, TT, Helm's Deep
'But these creatures of Isengard, these half-orcs and goblin-men that the foul craft of Saruman has bred, they will not quail at the sun,'
However, it may show that he was just emphasising his point by using both, in which case there were in fact two different words
No– even if "orc" and "goblin" are interchangeable, it still doesn't follow that "half-orcs" and "goblin-men" must be the same thing (and thus that "goblin-men" is redundant)– it might refer to beings who differed in their amount of Orcish vs human blood or characteristics.
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Old 01-30-2010, 10:10 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eönwë
I'm not saying that "goblin" does not mean "orc", only that as a translator, Tolkien uses the word "goblin" earlier on, and the further we go, the further we (and Frodo, who is writing the book) get into Middle Earth, so Tolkien uses the original word.
OK but your suggestion appears to be that Frodo, as writer, employs a word that denotes these creatures 'as creatures of legend which the Hobbits know only from stories' (as you say) -- with the implication that this is something which orc does not do.

Frodo using an original word other than orc is not impossible as a general theory, but the note to The Hobbit tells us the original word that 'goblin' translates is orc itself, being the Common Speech word the Hobbits used at the time.

If orc has been usually translated by 'goblin' in The Hobbit, but has been, in theory, 'retained' (though not in every instance) in The Lord of the Rings, then hasn't the reader essentially been told that the original word used throughout the tale is really orc? When one sees 'Sam' we know Frodo wrote Ban; and when one sees 'goblin' we know Frodo wrote orc.



Or if Tolkien as translator is doing as you suggest -- despite that Frodo used orc in the original let's say -- one has to contend with the appearances of orc early on in the tale. Orc is used early on in The Lord of the Rings (Frodo uses it 'in speech' in The Shadow of the Past for example). How are the examples, including the number of examples, of orc versus 'goblin' as they appear in the early parts of the tale supporting your idea?

Quote:
But actually, the particular passage you referred to may suggest that there is a difference between orcs and goblins, so perhaps we were wrong: 'But these creatures of Isengard, these half-orcs and goblin-men that the foul craft of Saruman has bred, they will not quail at the sun,'
I would employ the idea of translation here set out by Tolkien, and so I imagine 'goblin-men' has been fully translated (whatever Gamling means by it), in this case perhaps simply due to the translator's preference for the flow of the sentence, but in any event: English 'goblin-men' substituted for an original Westron word.

(maybe *orkil could mean 'goblin-man'? total speculation! and probably wrong, but loosely based on Banakil, Tarkil at least)

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