Fear of Lorien

[Iarhen]

The evil creatures in M.E., during the Third Age, were afraid of entering, getting near to, Lothlorien...

Even creatures that were not evil were afraid to enter that land. The rohirrim name it as the valley of ghosts... Orcs, trolls and all type of nasties were afraid to even get close the Golden Wood...

Even the Witch King of Angmar did not dare to face the power that dwelt in the country...

Putting aside the fact that maybe the Nazgul did not know that the dweller in that land, the one that guarded it against all evil, was GAladriel...or maybe they did...

But why did they fear her? They did not kenw that she was in posession of the White Ring...

Maybe they were afraid of the elves that dwelt in that land, being so organized, valiant and skilled with the bow...

But that happened too in Thranduil's realm, and the king was not mentioned as being the main reason why that kingdom stood up to the terrible times the last period of the 3rd age proved to be...

But the main thing is... If they did not knew the powerful dweller that lived there, or if they did not knew about the ring of power that she beared... Why were they afraid?

Becuase of the beauty of the land?

Some sort of enchantment lying all around Lorien that guarded it against evil? If it's so, why was Gollum able to get in and get out of it?

This has always been a very big doubt for me. Some say, and I agree, that she copied Melian and her girdle and that THAT was the nature of the power guarding Lorien (I even dare to say that, since she was a mighty one among the Eldar, and lving under the light of the 2 Trees, she became almost as mighty as the ainur)...

But what kind of protection did it have?

Why does the U.T. reffer to the protection around Lorien as a "fence"?

[Alatariel]

Good question. I had always sort of assumed that Lothlorien was such a place of purity - and exactly the opposite of all things corrupt and evil - that the evil creatures would be repulsed by it, just as gollum was harmed by the rope from Lothlorien. While the creatures may not know of Galadriel or the fact that she had Nenya, they would still be able to feel its power and be repulsed by it. Perhaps gollum was able to enter Lothlorien because he too had been a ring-bearer. Just a thought. I'm sure that other people can probably answer with more authority. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[miellien]

I think that all creatures could sense a power at work in the Wood. It made Frodo and Aragorn feel refreshed, but Boromir uneasy; to say nothing of Gollum. The straight-up "evil" creatures had to be driven in by a greater fear. I believe Galadriel used the ring to create something like the Girdle, although obviously not as powerful. It was aimed at emotions. Evil creatures would feel fear, good would feel hope. Ambiguous characters had to choose for themselves. It doesn't seem that anybody was actually kept out except with conventional weapons.

[Kalimac]

I was always under the impression that Gollum could get in *just barely* - that is, he could skirt the edges and maybe venture in a little ways, but he wouldn't enjoy it and certainly wouldn't camp out there for preference. Probably he just skulked around the borders waiting for the travellers to depart so he could follow them down the river.

It's not surprising that he'd be able to do this much, when we consider that Orcs were able to approach the edge of Lorien as well (granted, they didn't get very far, but still). Again, they doubtless hated the place but could probably skirt it if they had to - that is, if Haldir and his merry men hadn't taken care of them first.

Probably this has to do with relative degrees of strength, like a lot of other power-related stuff in the story. Gollum and the Orcs, while nasty, are pretty low on Sauron's food chain - they can't really do much by themselves, so they aren't as knocked down by the power of Lothlorien as, say, someone like the Mouth of Sauron probably would be. It's a parallel to the situation on the other side where Gandalf is readier to trust the comparatively-weak Frodo with carrying the evil Ring, while he himself is afraid to even touch it because he's so much stronger for good, and therefore will have a much more drastic reaction to it.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Three times Lorien had been assailed from Dol Guldur, but besides the valour of the elven people of that land, the power that dwelt there was too great for any to overcome, unless Sauron had come there himself.

This power, of course, was Galadriel's Nenya-produced 'time envelope' around the wood and all that went with it. It was indeed comparable to the Girdle of Melian -- although not as powerful, and over a much less distance. But is was the same sort of defensive thing.

[Olorin_TLA]

It can't eb like the Girdle. Golum, the Orks from Moria, the armies of Dol Guldur, all entered fine. The Lady's power, Ring-enahcned in some aspects possibly, would have been a deterrant to evil: to give an example of it, when Eorl rode to Gondor's rescue, she drove back the flowing Dark out of Dol Guldur, in what can only be described the exact opposite of the shadows produced by Shelob, Ungoliant, mb Hurons, etc
: a big "zone" of anti-shadow.

[Iarhen]

I always thought that the fact that Lorien had resisted the 3 sieges from Dol Guldur was thanks to Galadriel’s power. Tolkien says that besides the valour of the people that lived there, the power that dwelled there was far too great for any to overcome (except Sauron). I.e., they could not penetrate Lorien enough thanks to Galadriel’s girdle.


Again… could it be that the creatures with no will, such as the orcs or the Nazgul (whose will was that of Sauron’s), could not face the terrible effect that such beauty and power had over them… Maybe Galadriel did affect the communication that the will of Sauron had on his servants… deflecting it… Making it impossible for them to get into the Golden Wood. Getting lost on its borders… too afraid to move. That’s why Sauron was needed physically there… to break the fences and drive his forces… because not even the Nazgul could get in…

[Iarhen]

Do you think the balrog knew of the existence of an elven realm next to Moria? Would a creature as mighty as a balrog be kept out of the wood by the same girdle?

Galadriel was, most certainly, one tough adversary to match for the balrog, since the balrog had fallen before when facing powerful elven lords… What could he do against the mightiest of the eldar (putting aside Luthien and equal to Feanor)? And an eldar with a power boost (Nenya)?

[burrahobbit]

Quit talking about the stupid elf rings please, it's starting to grate me. They are not made for fighting, and neither is Galadriel. As such, neither of them would have kept a Balrog from doing whatever he wanted.

[Gurthang]

I agree, the rings were made by elves, which only one ever was able to overcome a balrog. They would not have affected him enough to do much good.

And another thing, the rings were made to aid in the creation of beautiful things, not for attacks and war. They may have been able to defend(Lorien and Rivendell) but could not have repelled any creatures. The fear was probably caused by the heavy resistence that the elves caused when anything evil tried to enter the woods. They loved them dearly, thought them sacred, and would not suffer any but their kindred to enter.

Thranduil's people did not necessarily love Mirkwood, and they only kept a portion of it clean.(Beside the fact that it was enormous.) They would not have cared who entered, as long as they did not bother the elves.

But Galandriel's people cared for the woods as a living thing. This was why everyone feared to enter the forest of Laurelindorinan.

[tinewelt]

It can't eb like the Girdle. Golum, the Orks from Moria, the armies of Dol Guldur, all entered fine.

I tend to disagree. I believe the power of Galadriel and Nenya was alot like the Girdle of MElian. AS Burrahobbit stated, the rings are not for fighting, but are actually for preserving what is beautiful in the world. (you know the true purpose of the rings) It was not the military power of the ring that kept the enemy out, but rather its power to preserve the beauty and goodness of the land in which it was nestled. Agreed, it was not as powerful and did not cover as much ground, yet it was still very potent. Also, someone stated that Galadriels power could *possibly* be enhanced by the ring.... I believe it was definately more than a possibility. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Iarhen]

Thats the reason of my question. Even though the girdle that protected Lorien guarded it against all evil, why was it shutting off Lorien of all the other good people in M.E.?

Rohan and Gondor do not trust Lorien or Galadriel. Gimli was not too keen on entering. The only ones that wanna go there, or who dont have a problem with teh land, are the elves or the ones that are in close contact with them.

Then again, why? If Lorien was a beautiful place, people would wanna go there. Not avoid getting close to it. The beauty and light shut the nasties out... but why did it frighten the other good people?

[Finwe]

Human beings generally fear what they do not know or what they do not fully comprehend. Lothlorien was quite an enigma to the Gondorians, and even more so to the Rohirrim, who were less "cultured." Since Lothlorien was "sealed" in a sort of "time envelope," I don't think a lot of traffic went on between it and the rest of Middle-earth. The only people who could get through were Elves, Elf-friends, or people sent on specific errands/quests or something having to do with Elves. That was the only way that the Fellowship got through. The degree of mistrust between all of the kingdoms in Middle-earth, especially towards the end of the Third Age, ensured that not much was known about Lothlorien, and thus, it was feared.

[Eladar]

Thats the reason of my question. Even though the girdle that protected Lorien guarded it against all evil, why was it shutting off Lorien of all the other good people in M.E.?

I believe the Elves themselves were the reason why the good guys were kept out. These Elves were grey elves and were a bit more agressive with the best weapons in the defense of their border. The green Elves of Mirkwood, on the other hand, relied more on stealth for their protection.

[tinewelt]

I think it is for different reasons than why the enemy cannot enter.

you passed through the hidden land, but it seems that you little understood its power. If men have dealings with the mistress of magic who dwells in the golden wood, then they may look for strange things to follow. For it is perilous for mortal man to walk out of the world of this sun, and few of old came thence unchanged, 'tis said.

The *good* people were afraid of going into lorien because of its history and its effect on their psyche. It was not the same power that kept out the enemy, it was the fear of what has happened in the past. Since the time of the last alliance, the Edain and the eldar have been put asunder of each other. and also since the downfall of moria and the ending of friendship between the dwarves and the elves, there has been little communication with lorien and the outside world. (besides rivendell and possibly the woodland realm?) With the instances of the past, and the rumors and stories (mostly contrived by people such as wormtongue and other evil hearted servants)people choose to stay away and take no chances. think, if a chick that has been alive for over 2000 years can repel armies, then why would you and your friends go skipping into Laurelindorenan singing tra-la-la. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

~Namarie~

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Galadriel was, most certainly, one tough adversary to match for the balrog, since the balrog had fallen before when facing powerful elven lords? What could he do against the mightiest of the eldar (not counted Luthien and equal to Feanor)

I might refer you to burrahobbit's post there, Iarhen. A Balrog would most certainly have defeated Galadriel (actually well over 5000 years old, tinewelt [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]) in combat; she was not a warrior (tch).

Although burra, I'm not going to accept that post in its entirety. The stupid elven rings? Hmm, well obviously this is rather a 'stupid' thing to say in itself (not applied to the assertion of Iarhen, but to the power of Nenya in Lorien).

The power in Lorien can be compared to Melian's Girdle, that happens to be a fact of Middle-Earth -- it can be. The 'power' that dwelt in Lothlorien was clearly Galadriel with her Ring; that's the whole point.

Thus Gurthang's statement:

And another thing, the rings were made to aid in the creation of beautiful things, not for attacks and war. They may have been able to defend(Lorien and Rivendell) but could not have repelled any creatures. The fear was probably caused by the heavy resistence that the elves caused when anything evil tried to enter the woods. They loved them dearly, thought them sacred, and would not suffer any but their kindred to enter.

The fear was caused by the fact that Lorien was a mysterious, shadowy and above all fearful thing, that no-one knew much about. I don't know whether the ignorant masses of the Orcs would have feared it -- the ones that pursued the company from Moria didn't seem to be aware of their peril -- but Men certainly did, for the reasons that Finwe says.

But if you are implying that the 'power' of Lothlorien was in fact the 'valour of the people of that land', you are incorrect. The two are 'apart from' one another.

Who does not 'believe' that the power was the Nenya-bearing Galadriel? It doesn't matter, but I've got the feeling that people are getting somewhat misguided...

[ October 16, 2003: Message edited by: Gwaihir the Windlord ]

[Eladar]

The fear was caused by the fact that Lorien was a mysterious, shadowy and above all fearful thing, that no-one knew much about.

Especially since anyone who entered in never came out.

[kittygirl02]

The darkness always fears the light.

[kittygirl02]

And Gollum was not wholly evil, so the little but of good left in him preaviled and allowed him to pass through Lorien.

[Finwe]

Gollum never passed through Lothlorien. All he could do was skirt around its edges, presumably, because the "Elvishness" of the land was hurtful to him (the hithlain burned him later).

I think that Galadriel (and Celeborn) probably didn't discourage those rumors of "a nameless fear/unease" about Lothlorien because they would get less intruders and ill-wishers. Galadriel wanted to seal off Lothlorien (for the most part) from the harmful influences of the rest of Middle-earth, and a constant influx and exit of people wouldn't have enabled her to hold to that purpose.

[ladyhwi]

I believe that if the mystery and legend of Lothlorien didn't keep the ununwelcomed out the skill of the elves within would. And finally I do believe there was a girdle of power created by nenya. That enchanted those who wandered to far in and may have used the evil they brought agianst themselves and made them feel as if cursed or bewitched by the lady of the wood.

[rudeboy]

Was the samething of a girdle protecting Lorien applied to Rivendell? Rivndell never seems to sound as well protected as Lorien. Also say the ring was hidden and not destroyed would Lorien eventually fall from attacks from Dol Guldar?

[Iarhen]

I think it was mostly because of the fact that Rivendell was, in itself, a citadel… Built to protect… Since the citadel itself had protective features, possibly Elrond did not needed to put forth so much power to guard it against evil. Only when the Nazgul approached, he had to raise the river versus the Riders. But other than that, Elrond had a much easier job… Also taking in the fact that Rivendell was a lot smaller than Lorien and that the Misty Mountains protected Rivendell from all the nasties that had their main abode in Mordor, Dol Guldur, Minas Morgul, Isengard, Mirkwood, etc.

And to your second question… I highly doubt that Lorien would eventually fall to Dol Guldur’s attacks. Remember the appendix of ROTK… Besides the valour and courage of the elven people that lived there, the power that dwelt there was far too great for any to overcome, unless Sauron himself came to Lorien to undo the fences that Galadriel wove around her realm. Much harm would be done on the woods of the borders, but Lorien would stand against them…
I think that Dol Guldur would, eventually, run out of forces with each failed assault against Lorien. And even though its quite possible that the Lorien hosts would not get out of the Golden Wood to attack Dol Guldur with Sauron still around, Lorien would have been left in peace till Sauron sent more forces or came there himself… That would be a dread thing to happen… The Dark Lord on the border… killing the elves… And Celeborn and Galadriel trying to find a way out… Thank God it never happened!

[burrahobbit]

Yeah the power that dwelt there was pretty badass.

[rudeboy]

I always thought that if they waited in Rivendell, Lorien and where ever that eventually they would be defeated even if they still had possesion of the ring! I FotR I think its the first page of Chpt Journey in the dark, Gandalf says (on returning back to Rivendell)"To turn back now would be to admit defeat, for sooner rather than later Rivendell will be under siege and will be destryoed in a brief and bitter time" Its not the exact quote but you get the idea. Also Elrond says something like "We have not the power here or in Lorien or The Grey Havens to repell Sauron for ever"- when Glorfindel talks about hiding the ring or casting it into the sea.

Just a thought!!

[samrohan]

I reckon Tolkien viewed both Rivendell and Lothlorien as havens of peace surrounded by hostile lands. If you think about it, it is rather irrelevant wether or not the orcs and other creatures could go in. Tolkien DID not allow them entrance, for had 10000 orcs entered Rivendell, there would be no story.

He had to create a myth around both those elven citadels. This being associated to the rings of power or the presence of grey elves is left to all to picture for themselves.
Tolkien himself would probably not have answers for most the posts in this website.
[img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

However, my personal view is that Rivendell was protected not only by the elves that lived there but because of its location.
Had Sauron sent an army to take on Rivendell, his army would have been left isolated and far away from Mordor. Sauron might have been planning for such an assault by populating Moria with Orcs and such creatures (assuming the orcs there belonged to him: A good question in itself...)

As for Rivendell, don't forget on top of the aura of good and the power of the ring and the grey elves, the Caras Galadhon ( wrong spelling sorry, no book handy for I am at work) was in itself a fortress protected by high walls. The company spend a few hours walking around the walls to enter through the main gates. And for all we know Galadriel might have the power to unleash the forest and rivers on her enemys like Elrond could control his river protecting Rivendell.

In hind sight, it would be nice to have Tolkien with us to answer our questions as he is the only one to be able to, being the Creator.