Do you think there should have been a contrivance to pre-empt the Eagles question?

[denethorthefirst]

It really surprises me how often this question crops up, because to me it makes absolutely no sense. As the others have already mentioned using the eagles isn't exactly subtle. Although eagles are able to fly very high, Sauron would still be able to spot them miles away, long before they would even reach the black gate, and take the appropriate counter-measures. And how would the Eagles "land" the ring? I mean they can't just drop it, what if they miss? So they have to either land or at least come very close to the mountain. Sauron will then be able to shoot them down, if he hasn't already brought them down with his fell beasts. And another thing: who's to say that the Eagles would even be able to mentally complete the task? It could very well be that the group of eagles tears itself apart well before reaching mount doom, fighting over the ring. And even if the Eagles reach the mountain, the ring-bearing eagle would at this point probably refuse to drop the ring, just like frodo and isildur were not able to harm the ring (and isildur was only in possession for several minutes, the eagle would be exposed to the ring for at least several days)!

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by denethorthefirst

Although eagles are able to fly very high, Sauron would still be able to spot them miles away, long before they would even reach the black gate, and take the appropriate counter-measures. And how would the Eagles "land" the ring? I mean they can't just drop it, what if they miss? So they have to either land or at least come very close to the mountain. Sauron will then be able to shoot them down, if he hasn't already brought them down with his fell beasts. And another thing: who's to say that the Eagles would even be able to mentally complete the task? It could very well be that the group of eagles tears itself apart well before reaching mount doom, fighting over the ring. And even if the Eagles reach the mountain, the ring-bearing eagle would at this point probably refuse to drop the ring, just like frodo and isildur were not able to harm the ring (and isildur was only in possession for several minutes, the eagle would be exposed to the ring for at least several days)!

Good points. And the way I see it, having the Eagles, who were basically Manwë's 'eyes' in Middle-earth take such an active part in the War of the Ring would have been pretty much the same as sending the Ring over Sea. Elrond discounted that as an option, and I think the Eagles were off-limits for that kind of task as well. The Valar (Eru) had devised the means of accomplishing Sauron's fall with the sending of the Istari. The Eagles were on hand to aid those fighting Sauron, particularly, I think, the Istari, but sending them into Mordor to do the dirty work just wouldn't fly.

[Faramir Jones]

There has been some discussion about Gandalf's use of the phrase 'Thrice shall pay for all, if you are willing' to Gwaihir at the Battle of the Black Gate, in terms of the latter taking him and then going with other eagles to rescue Frodo and Sam at his request. The other two times were, I believe, when Gwaihir personally rescued Gandalf, when his life was at serious risk.

In terms of the previous two events, the first would be when the eagles rescued Bilbo, Gandalf and the dwarves, bringing them to their eyrie, and then taking them some distance to Beorn, to get ahead of the goblins and wargs. It's clearly stated that Gwaihir was the eagle who personally rescued Gandalf, when the latter was about to attack the goblins and wolves, but who would have died as a result. The second would be when Gwaihir rescued Gandalf from Celebdil, after the Battle of the Peak with the Balrog, when he had died and come back from the dead, but was obviously in a bad way. One could argue that Gandalf's life was not immediately at risk when he was rescued from Orthanc, although his ultimate fate would have been unpleasant, particularly if he had been handed over to Sauron. Also, the interventions of the eagles in the Battle of Five Armies and the Battle of the Black Gate were not intended to save Gandalf personally, or a small group of which he was a member.

What do people think?

[Boromir88]

What do people think?~Faramir Jones

I think Gandalf's rescued/carried by Gwaihir three times are all referring to the 3 times in The Lord of the Rings. There is a progression in their friendship each time Gwaihir has to carry Gandalf.

First, Orthanc, Gwaihir says "I was sent to bear tidings, not burdens."

Second, from Zirakzigil. Gwaihir (if I recall correctly, was sent by Galadriel) and remarks that Gandalf is light:

"Ever am I fated to be your burden, friend at need." I said.
"A burden you have been," he answered "but not so now. Light as a swan's feather in my claw you are. The sun shines through you..."~The White Rider

Then in the Field of Cormallen, Gandalf tells Gwaihir:

"You will not find me a burden much greated than when you bore me from Zirakzigil, where my old life burned away."
"I would bear you," answered Gwaihir, "whither you will, even were you made of stone."

So I think the "thrice pays for all" is just the three times in LOTR, because each rescue shows a progression in their friendship. Gandalf is first "a burden" that Gwaihir will carry for many leagues "but not to the ends of the earth." Second time, Gandalf is still a burden, but he's "as light as a swan's feather." Then the last time, Gwaihir says he will bear Gandalf wherever, even were he "made of stone." So, I guess that means Gwaihir in the Fellowship of the Ring would not have accepted carrying the ring-bearer to the borders/into Mordor. But ROTK Gwaihir would have...figures you even have to play the dance with eagles, when you want to get them to do anything for you.

[Faramir Jones]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

So I think the "thrice pays for all" is just the three times in LOTR, because each rescue shows a progression in their friendship. Gandalf is first "a burden" that Gwaihir will carry for many leagues "but not to the ends of the earth." Second time, Gandalf is still a burden, but he's "as light as a swan's feather." Then the last time, Gwaihir says he will bear Gandalf wherever, even were he "made of stone." So, I guess that means Gwaihir in the Fellowship of the Ring would not have accepted carrying the ring-bearer to the borders/into Mordor. But ROTK Gwaihir would have...figures you even have to play the dance with eagles, when you want to get them to do anything for you.

That's a very good response, Boromir88! Certainly, things seem to get friendlier between Gwaihir and Gandalf as the book goes on.

[Marwhini]

Originally Posted by denethorthefirst

It really surprises me how often this question crops up, because to me it makes absolutely no sense. As the others have already mentioned using the eagles isn't exactly subtle. Although eagles are able to fly very high, Sauron would still be able to spot them miles away, long before they would even reach the black gate, and take the appropriate counter-measures. And how would the Eagles "land" the ring? I mean they can't just drop it, what if they miss? So they have to either land or at least come very close to the mountain. Sauron will then be able to shoot them down, if he hasn't already brought them down with his fell beasts. And another thing: who's to say that the Eagles would even be able to mentally complete the task? It could very well be that the group of eagles tears itself apart well before reaching mount doom, fighting over the ring. And even if the Eagles reach the mountain, the ring-bearing eagle would at this point probably refuse to drop the ring, just like frodo and isildur were not able to harm the ring (and isildur was only in possession for several minutes, the eagle would be exposed to the ring for at least several days)!

It isn't just a case of "landing."

The Sammath Naur is INSIDE Orodruin.

They have to land, and then squeeze into a hole where they would have to then drop the ring into the lava at the bottom of the Sammath Naur.

All Sauron would need to do would be to put a gate on it, or wall it up.

Why he didn't already is a question that needs to be answered. Arrogance? That seems to be the go-to for Sauron, but I think it likely another reason that isn't so simple of reductive.

But your point remains, only more complicated and worse than even you have described.

Although it is likely they would have send Frodo atop one of the Eagles, carrying the One Ring. That doesn't change the situation a great deal.

MB