Lessons on Swordsmanship

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

As you can well imagine there's a lot to swordfighting. For those of you interested - whether you're sick and bloodthirsty or needing a bit of realistic info for fantasy stories, here are few basics of two-handed broadsword fighting. <P>Note I say Two-Handed. These swords are heavy. Use one hand and you drop it. One hand is up by the cross of the pummel, the other is lower, by the base of the grip. You are literally pulling this lead-heavy chunk of metal with one hand, while the other is pushing, to get that swing. They're sooo bloody long, it's like fighting with a 50 lb. broom handle.<P>Obviously there's offense and defensive moves.<P><B>Let's Attack!</B><P>The offense is much simpler than the defense. So we'll start with the Offensive moves.<P>These all have their own technical terminology, but I'll avoid that here for bloodthirsty clarity.<P>There are <I>Cuts</I> (that's actually the technical term this time). <P>There are <I>Circular</I> motions, windmilling. You saw Aragorn do a lot of that. Deadly, even though they travel a longer distance - it's hard to reverse the direction of a 5' swinging blade.<P>Cuts -<BR>There are six Cuts. Why six? <P>Well there are two downward diagonal 'eyebrow to cheek' slices. <BR>One to the left. <BR>The other to the right.<P>There are two upward diagonal 'cheek to eyebrow' slices; right and left.<P>Then there's the good old fashioned 'head chop', left-to-right or right-to-left.<P>Of course you can do these up high at the head, mid-way to the body, or down low to wipe out the guy's legs. <BR>The strokes to defend against these are basically the same, only higher or lower as needed; one type of stroke defends from comes at you from the left. Another protects your right.<P>The difference matters <B>a lot</B> when you're defending. There are different strokes to defend against each, so that you get the angle right. Get the defensive angle wrong, and all you do is deflect the blow to some other delicate part of your anatomy.<P>You winced just now, didn't you?<P>'Circles' -<BR>Okay, the Circular 'windmill' moves slice up the human body in the same way, only you complete the motion in a full circle.<P>All strikes to the right side are counterclockwise; all strikes to the left are clockwise.<P>That diagonal downstroke, right-ear-to-left-shoulder that's counterclockwise (I mean your left and right, staring at your victim). Pick up a pencil. Strike the air with it in a spin. Of course it's counterclockwise. Nothing else would work would it? <P>The other side, left-ear-to-right-shoulder is clockwise.<P>90% of attacks are diagonal downstrokes to the right, right-ear-to-left-shoulder (left and right is from the attackers point of view). Because most people are right-handed. And down is easier than up. Most people lead with this stroke automatically, too. <P>This means when you're defending, you're constantly defending your left.<P>Watch out for lefties. They're backwards. A left-handed hero has a double advantage. Not only do they attack from an unexpected direction, they are strongest defending their left side, where most people attack.<P>Then there's the diagonal upstroke upper cut to the chin or gut - circling (clockwise), left hip to right shoulder. Or the other way, right hip to left shoulder, (counterclockwise). <P>Coming soon: how the heck do I defend myself from this whizzing steel?<p>[ May 18, 2002: Message edited by: Marileangorifurnimaluim ]

[Joy]

Thanks Maril. I'm just starting a Fanfic. Great information.

Hi, Joy. Great information. I'm beginning a piece on Legolas's weapons training as a youngster in the House of Thranduil. Where did you find it? If I use your information I will be sure to attribute it to your and/or your sources. Regards - Chathol-linn, Bard of the Elves of Mirkwood

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> sick and bloodthirsty <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, maybe just bloodthirsty, but unfortanately not left-handed

[Cimmerian]

Ah..the sword! Very well written there, I however have had no problem in weilding a longsword one handed, but a 90 lbs Barbarian sword needs a two handed approach.<BR>Imagine a 145 lbs Battle Axe....

[Joy]

Hi, just giving credit where credit is due, Chathol-linn. I did not write the article, it was Marileangorifurnimaluim. <P>Maril, you must be kin to an Ent!

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

Welcome to the Downs, Chathol-linn!<P>Thank you, Joy. I did a little research, so it's nice to get credit. I've seen you around, though I think we don't often post in the same topics.<P>Chathol-linn, I think Legolas would generally have used a lighter, quicker weapon than a broadsword (a long rapier?), to take advantage of his agility. And probably a long knife in the other hand rather than a shield. A lot of 16th century fighters spurned the shield as useless deadweight, as it could only be used to defend. A knife could be used to defend, and then - flip! - turn defence into attack. Though no doubt as a king's son would have been trained in all of these weapons. <P>My source at this point is a 19th century text on 16th century broadsword technique. I'll dig up the author's name. <BR> <BR>Cimm, okay, okay, Conan, by Crom I get it. Have fun. <P>But seriously, I'm glad you brought this up. Gives me a chance to talk about this a little more.<P>Just like it's unwise to handle a gun with one hand (watch a soldier, they never do) let alone those stupid grips gang-bangers come up with, a proper grip on the sword is critical. Actually, more important than your grip on a gun - it's crucial. <P>The reason: it's the angle that matters, and it's tricky to hold an exact angle with only one tippy hand. It's not really about strength.<P>But it makes sense that one would practice to be able to. In a pinch, with blood pouring down your arm, making the quillion slippery and sticky at once, the other arm disabled... learning a one-handed grip could probably save your neck. <P>But you lose both precision and strength by using just one hand. Of which the most important is precision, really. <P>The only reason to fight one-handed is if you have to, or to show off. <P>It calls to mind a story idea of cocky young soldier demonstrating "one-handed" technique, then being bested by an old pro, who is able to, by striking at that farthest off-balance end, get easily inside his guard. <P>I think what started the 'one-handed' trend was the fact writers in the 30s based their swashbuckling adventure stories on fencing. But fighting with a dainty little foil and that crowbar of a broadsword is quite different, requiring a different technique. <P>Watch Boromir and Aragorn. While they let go at various times to switch grips, they always return to a two-handed hold. <P>Cimm brings up an idea for your Legolas story, Chathol-linn: training with one hand bound and an oiled sword. But to make it realistic he has to drop it. Over and over again. You'll have to think of ways Legolas could strengthen both his arm and his grip to be able to do this and still put up a proper defence. Pulling an oar would do it. Climbing, of course, esp if he climbs something slick.<p>[ May 18, 2002: Message edited by: Marileangorifurnimaluim ]

[QuickSlash]

Very infomative. I actually plan on taking fencing lessons this fall, and it's very similar from what I can see, but I know very little. How did you ever learn about all this?

[Lostgaeriel]

Great stuff, Maril!<P>I'm curious to see how PJ shows Éowyn slaying the Witchking one-handed. But first I want to finish my drawing/painting of it. Do you think she could manage to hold what I've decided was a hand-and-a-half sword with finger ring, when her shield arm was broken? Mind you she just had to hold it steady - no cuts or circles. (That's all, no big deal, geesh!)<P>Does a hand-and-a-half make sense for her? She's smaller in stature than the men, but I also wonder if all the Rohirrim would use the hand-and-a-half. Would it be more flexible for horsed and (heaven forbid) unhorsed combat? Afraid I mostly looked at the pictures and didn't read very much of this book:<BR>Phaidon Guide to Antique Weapons and Armour, by Robert Wilkinson-Latham, Prentice-Hall, Inc. Englewood Cliffs, New Jersey 07632, 1981. ISBN 0136619355, LC 623.441 WIL<P>See, I've got to design the weapons and armour before I can 'dress' my posed figures. And yet, the poses will be determined by the type and use of weapon. Agghh!

[Lanniae of the Axe]

Wow, cool stuff! Thanks for all the research! That must've taken a helluva long time! Thanks!<P>I am interested in all sorts of weaponry. I'm sick and bloodthirsty, and I'm writing fanfics. I also fence, but it's a little to delicate for me, I'm not exactly agile and I think I'll move up to saber or epee (however you spell that!)<P>Although, me, being a Dwarf-fangirl, I want battle-axe lessons! Don't know how many moevements exaclty you can do with an axe...hm, hey Marileangorifurnimaluim you coudl do some more research here! Axe-moves...heh. THAT would actually be most useful to my fic. I dunno. That'd be totally cookl, yo! <P>Again, thanks, all your info was way cool, interesting and much-needed!<P>--Lanniae the Axe

Why are there apparently no martial arts in ME? Can't you just see a group of elves meditatign in the woods before a battle, and then jumping out of the trees at the orcs going "AAAAIIIIEEEE"<P>Ok, maybe that's just me, but it would be cool!

[Joy]

Maril, this is some of the best stuff that I have read! Great job!

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

*Maril beams!* Thanks, Joy, everyone! <P>Quickslash - the Internet! A Cornell University Prof. has published a rare work by Captain Alfred Hutton <A HREF="http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/bjm10/hutton/hutton.html#contents" TARGET=_blank>Here at the Cornell Univ web site</A> to make it accessible to everyone. I've practiced the moves, done sketches, and made it as bloody and visual as possible, so it's useful to the imagination. I've had a little fencing experience, training in martial arts, archery, small arms. A dabbler really, though my Tai-kwon Do teacher was very excited by my speed and intensity, and I've won awards for marksmanship. It <I>is</I> similar to fencing, the difference is in how you deal with the extra weight and length, two-handed as opposed to a one-handed grip.<P>Lanniae, to write about ax work, I'd rent a cabin with a wood-burning stove in the woods, and be the person to feed the fire. You'll find out right away that, unlike swords which need strength in the arm, axes need your strength in your shoulders. And damn you'll feel it. I'd also read about using quarter staves, for blocking motions. Let me finish the basics on defensive moves for the two-handed sword. Ha! and see if I have anything left for more research!<P>Lostgaeriel - Hi! Great to see you again. <BR>I'm no expert on various weapons, but scanning the historical weapons used by horsed attackers (Knights Templar, etc.) they all seem to use longer weapons than the Hand-and-a-Half. You're right, the Hand-and-a-Half is the <I>smallest</I> you'd go. But since you're standing tall on one of those beautiful Rohan horses 16 hands high, hewing your way through foot soldiers, I suspect longer is better. You want to remain as upright as possible to keep your seat.<P>I'll bet Eowyn's sword would have seemed just slightly big for her. She would have trained on her brothers' swords, too long for her or no. Much like any girl who grows up in a house full of brothers - you get their hand-me-downs, imitate them.. Since she was never expected to fight, she would not have had tailor-made weapons like Legolas. <P>Two-hands are needed for recovery from a cut, and defensive moves. A desperate stroke like hers could have been done one-handed. But she would have left herself wide open right after. It was a suicide move, made successful by Merry's stroke.<P>More coming, but I thought I'd answer questions first.<P>-Maril

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

That said, time to <B>Defend</B>!<P>Parries - <BR>Well you can just stick your sword out randomly and hope it a) Connects with what's coming at you and b) Doesn't just deflect it to someplace worse. Or you can know exactly what to do.<P>Three things are important -<P>Your grip. <BR>Your stance. <BR>And of course height, putting your sword high or low according to what's attempting to deprive you of your life.<P>Since everything's coming at your left anyways, let's defend the left!<P>Grip: left hand on top, by the hilts. Right hand by the base.<BR>Stance: balanced, right knee forward, slightly bent.<P><I>Explaining the grip</I><BR>Time to hold that pencil again. Put your left hand on top, right hand below, and defend your left. <BR>See how your left arm is perfectly set to brace for a blow? And the pencil is angled away from you. <P>Now let's do the incorrect grip. Right hand on top, left below. Hold it up to defend the left. <BR>Weak as a noodle, isn't it? Your right arm is awkwardly stretched across you, unbraced, easily bent, and yiiiiiiii your sword is angled toward you. A hard enough blow, and it could chop your own head off.<P><I>Explaining the stance</I><BR>Why is this important? Because Wham! someone's gonna hit you with all they've got, and you want to keep your balance.<P>The knee's <I>bent</I> as a shock absorber.<BR>You have your <I>right</I> knee forward to balance the chunk of metal you're holding to your left.<BR>You have your bent knee <I>forward</I> because you want your weapon closer to their face. Heh. And having it back leans your whole body back, off-balance.<P>This move at shoulder height defends from someone trying to slice you like a pizza, 'left-eyebrow-to-right-cheek'. Lower, defends from the 'head chop' from the left. Way up high, protects from those axes of Lanniae's, or a vertical chop aiming to slice you in half.<P>Personal note: defense is good for two things - keeping life and limb intact, and giving you time to plan. But you want to defend as little as possible, unless you think you can wear your opponent out by sheer stamina. While you defend, that brick of metal weighing down your arms is getting heavier and heavier.. and you're getting slower, your breath is coming in gasps. And you've made no progress in winning.

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

Okay all you bloodthirsty fiction writers and sword-fans, here's some more realistic info to chew on.<P>Now we switch grips (right hand on top, left on bottom) and do the same to the right. Your hands should be separated by several inches, depending on the length of your hilt.<P>Remember to switch your stance as well. <BR>Yep, left knee forward, bent. <BR>No, make sure your weight is forward, over that knee. When the shock hits, you want the force to carry to that knee, not your back leg, which will throw you backwards.<P><B>Defend!</B><P>Whoa! First time you have steel coming at you, you want to back off. You have to <I>lean</I> into it, like skiing. <P>Don't worry about it kid. <I>Everyone</I> leans back like that the first time. This goes against your every instinct for self-preservation. You feel like you're putting your face closer. You're really putting your only defense, that blade, closer.<P>Let's try again.<BR><UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>A downward diagonal cut to your right shoulder - Clang! Got it. Felt that to your elbows, did you? <BR><LI>Now don't hold it up straight up and down like that. Angle the point towards your opponent. Keep me back and on my toes.<BR><LI>A 'head-chop' to your neck (right side) - Clang! Got that, too. Yep slightly higher, just so.<BR><LI>A vertical slice-n-dice from above - Clang! Braced way up high. That's gonna take some practice, you're a little weaker, holding that weight up there. Remember that. Others will be too.<BR><LI>Now let's do a head chop to the right.. aaaand now the left.<P>Gotcha. You couldn't switch grips fast enough, could you? Aren't you glad I went slow?<BR></UL>*Maril leans on sword (remember to never do this by the way, dulls the blade)* <P>Generally, you will use only one of these two grips, always with your strongest arm on top. For obvious reasons. Most of you, it will be your right hand by the hilt.<P><B>A new Parry - the technical term is Tierce, let's call it Angled Parry</B><BR>How do you defend your other side, without switching grips?<P><I>Angle</I><BR>Get out your swords (i.e. pencils) again. Something longer will help this time. Hold them out again as you have been, braced. <P>Now angle your sword diagonally (if you're right handed, right hand on top, you'll tip it to the left), until it's almost at a 90 degree angle, almost horizontal. The point is still up slightly. If your forearms touch, you've gone too far. <BR>You'll feel it balance, suddenly your right arm will feel strong, braced, at this angle.<P>You also feel your balance has shifted. <BR>Your stance is now all wrong.<BR>The bigger the sword, the more important the stance. Naturally. You're balancing a heavier weight.<BR>You're almost falling over to the side now.<P>We're gonna do this from the righties point of view (sorry, majority rules).<P><I>Stance</I><BR>Bring your right knee forward, bent. <BR>Same knee as the side the side of the arm holding the sword. <BR>Your left leg is back. <P>Now this position is naturally more awkward, weaker, less stable than the previous move. So your back foot position is vital to balance. <P>If you have your feet both pointed forward, a blow Will tip you, left or right. Mostly left. If your back foot is angled out, making a wide L, suddenly you find you're braced solidly again.<P><B>Now you have a Second Chance - Defend!</B><P>Head-chop from the left - Clang! Now ANGLE, step forward - shift that left foot -<P>Head-chop from the right - Clang!<P>You got it. Now get faster. (Gradually. Be exact.) No one strikes the same side twice in a row. Law of physics.<p>[ May 20, 2002: Message edited by: Marileangorifurnimaluim ]

[Ms. Took]

thank you. this stuff is cool.

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

You're welcome! My goal is to give everyone a taste of real sword action so they can picture it realistically. Both for their fiction and for fun.<P>-Maril

[NinjaFerret]

Oooh. This is interesting. I do sport fencing. I have some fanatical friends who are very much immersed in theatrical and Renaissance (sp?) fencing. I think the primary difference between broadsword and the smaller rapier-like weapons is that if you were fighting with a broadsword, the object was to kill your oponent which probably included getting through armor. <P>Epee was a dueling weapon and the point (pun intended) was to draw first blood. Sabre was a cavalry weapon, and the object there was to decapitate your oponent. Foil was actually a weapon intended to kill, but was not intended to pierce armor. <P>It sounds like in order to fence broadsword, you needed brute strength, but for the three modern weapons, it is more quickness and brains that triumph.<P>May your luck exceed the stench of your oxters.

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

Hey, thanks for joining us NinjaFerret. <P>I think you're absolutely right about the intent of the broadsword to kill by being powerful enough to cut through armor. Whether it be leather, maille, or plate armor. <P>It's a battlefield weapon, while the rapier I believe was exactly that, a duelist's and street-fighter's weapon. <P>A broadsword does no good in a 14th century city, those tiny little roads, where there's no room to swing. Stepping into a city, you put away the broadsword, and pull out the rapier. <P>Strength and precision go hand in hand. You need the strength to be precise enough to be deadly. But yep, these blades are a workout.<P>Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the foil actually was originally a training blade, deliberately dulled for practice. The phrase for dulling a blade was "foiling" the blade. It was used for exhibition style dueling later.<P>You know, I hadn't thought about the sabre at all. It <I>is</I> a calvary weapon. I need to do more research on this (care to join me? ). Looking at the earlier weapons of horsed fighters, such as the Knights Templar, they seemed to use broadswords. I think you have it there with the type of armor the attacker could expect to meet. The sabre, I'm willing to bet though I don't know, was a calvary weapon, during the Civil War and other periods where the calvary wouldn't be faced with chain and plate mail.<P>This is actually an important point, as Lostgariel is doing a rendering of Eowyn's stand against the Witch-King, and has asked what weapon she would have used. She says a Hand-and-a-Half sword. I've said probably longer. Now I'm not so sure.<P>Theatrical fencing is deliberately exaggerated of course to look good (you know that of course). What I have here is based a text describing the real thing. I think it would be boring to watch by comparision. Ponderous, slow and ve-ry repetitive.<p>[ May 21, 2002: Message edited by: Marileangorifurnimaluim ]

[Saxony Tarn]

Hey Maril, this is ever so greatly appreciated! Thanks for sharing your knowledge with us. Can i (and the rest of us so inclined or in need) print this thread and refer to it like a textbook? i'm thinking of first a friendly sparring match, then later no-holds-barred, no punches pulled argument between two characters, one armed with bastard sword and shield and above-average strength on his side, the other with flamberge shortsword-rapier and main-gauche and all the dexterity of a belly-dancer on her side, that i'm going to have to go over with a microscope for accuracy sooner or later...<P>I suppose i should probably toss in a point about those fancy wavy blades -- Flamberge in Europe, in Asia the Kris -- were thought to inflict worse wounds which wasn't actually true, but as you parried with them and your opponent's sword slid down the troughs and crests it would slow him down, and set up a vibration in his arm if he wasn't hip to it (i made use of that in the sparring match scene -- irked the other combatant no end, but after three arm-quakes he got wise to it and changed his tactics) i've been using the little blurbs in the Museum Replicas catalog for info and will probably get a good book on it but until then this thread is "a gift" (if i can quote the opponent w/ the shield)<P>Here's another silly question i'd like clarified -- a "Two-Handed" sword as described in MR's catalog, and in most of the FRPGs i've played, is one that MUST be used with two hands by any Human wielding it (including massively thewed Cimmerians -- i grew up reading Savage Sword comics & would love to get my hands on some back issues). Hand&halfs (bastardswords) can be used with one or two hands by Humans tall and strong enough to have the leverage, but shorter or weaker wielders can only use them with two hands (i'm thinking of a sword i have as part of a borrowed costume that is "too tall" for me -- i can't balance it in one hand, but the owner probably could, having more arm strength and a few inches more height to carry it properly as well) whereas broad or long swords were to be used with one, options on offhand weapon or shield (as the Vikings were depicted) as their hilts were not large enough to accomodate a two-handed grip, and shortswords especially so (especially by archers who'd exhausted their short-range targets)<P>Someone on another thread mentioned that much of these FRPG combat systems have cracks in their factual foundations (and i have no problem slashing out paragraphs of TSR tome text and refering to my House Rules) so i thought i'd toss this out and see if my game rules could be improved by this as well... largely because i devoted at least two viewings of FotR to taking notes on the equipment such that i could drop my gaming group into the middle of the War of the Ring and feel that i'd put the right kinds of swords in Aragorn's and Boromir's fists (and it took me two viewings to nail the latter down, but by Crom, i got a good enough look to gauge the length of the hilt -- enough for two men and a Hobbit) operating under the assumption that if they were packing Zweihänders, Aragorn would not have been able to pull off the sword-and-torch feat against the wraiths, nor would Boromir have had any use for a shield as he wouldn't have had the free left arm. Fighting without the shield though, he'd have been able to put more power into the swing with two arms, and at least the games i've played reflect that by giving increased damage for such hits when they connect. (i thought i saw him slice two Orcs with one blow toward the end there, but that would be a function of experience as well as skill, stats, and properties of the weapon)<P>Sorry to seem like i'm diverting the discussion, but this gamer is actively looking for anything that can improve the "open-source" house rules. This thread'll go into my reference files -- thanks again!<P>s.t.<P>|_|) <-- it comes in pints, and this one's for you!<P>* another note, for description of equipped characters, from the MR catalog, only two-handers -- like Claymores and Landsknechts' Zweihänders -- were carried on the back -- all other swords were carried off the hip... unless we're dealing with slim little swordswomen or Hobbits and Dwarves, in which case, the aforementioned "too tall for me" sword, I could freely pack on my back with the right harness, since for me it is the equivalent of a two-hander! *

[Joy]

Maril, I need some info. What is the difference in a Basic broadsword and a bastard sword? - got my info from <A HREF="http://www.jelldragon.com/med_swords.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.jelldragon.com/med_swords.htm</A> <P>Also, can you recommend any web sites for sword making? Just need for my fan-fic.

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

Saxony, yes. That's why I've done this. I figure, why should I be the only one to benefit? And you're very welcome, of course.<P>I can't claim to be an expert on weapons, (that may be my next research project ), but as far as one-handed and two-handed swords are concerned.. pick up even a broomstick and try some of these moves. Even with a lighter weight, a two-handed grip on something so large and awkward more than doubles your precision. <P>Something that doesn't come across until you actually fence is how the slightest angle makes a profound difference in the success of your attack or defence. Shooting, say a gun, you don't have to be on your toes in the same way.<P>That's why stage fighting has to be so jazzed up. In the real thing, the movements between one and the next moment are slight and smooth, with the angle of attack and parry counting most. Only an expert can tell the difference between a good fighter and a bad, but they can tell right away, from a hundred subtle clues.<P>My understanding is the swords in the movie are custom designs. Someone who knows more about these weapons would better be able to recognize from where, historically, the features were borrowed.<BR> <A HREF="http://www.swordsofhonor.com/lorofringlam.html" TARGET=_blank>Here's a link to Glamdring.</A> <P>Alas, neither Boromir's blade nor Anduril are featured. Maybe later their likenesses will be released.<p>[ May 22, 2002: Message edited by: Marileangorifurnimaluim ]

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

Hey, Joy! That site you have there has a great bit on sword-making actually. Dig deeper into it. There's a link in the middle of the page. It describes the making of Viking swords, but it's detailed and should get you started. Here's another option: <A HREF="http://user.netonecom.net/~swordman/SwordMaking/SwordMaking.htm" TARGET=_blank>Rather scattered but very detailed and enthusiastic sword-making website.</A> Let me know if it was helpful, or if we need to keep looking.<P>I'm no expert on the different types of swords. <P>That said.. the two-handed sword is differentiated by it's extra-long handle, usually around 10-12 inches. The reason for the extra room is obvious: you need room for two hands.<P>Sometimes it's only the handle that's long, and the blade's only 40"; sometimes it can be as long as 60"(!) on something like a Claymore. <P>The Bastard sword is also called the Hand-and-a-half. The handle is about 8" or so. Not quite two-handed, not quite one-handed. Theory is you can use it for both. It's blade tends to be about the standard 36", but compared to the two-handed overall it's a bit shorter.<p>[ May 22, 2002: Message edited by: Marileangorifurnimaluim ]

[Joy]

Thank you so much Maril. Haven't had time to go through all the information on those pages, but it looks like what I need.<P>If you would like to take a look at what I have so far on my fan fic, go to Newcomers and Novices - then Fan fic. The next to the last entry is the last update and the last entry is a poem that I am including sometime in the story.<P>And again, thank you.

[Saxony Tarn]

Maril -- if the Glamdring link goes to Museum Reps then i think i've seen it, but i'm sure the others on this thread would fancy a look (it is a nice piece after all) As far as certain other weapons featured, let me see, how did i have the character playing bout judge appraise Boromir's sidearm... "is that a broad longsword or a long broadsword with enough hilt for two men and a Hobbit?!" (i don't think we should allow that one in, that might just violate regulations! Definately the high-end of the Strength statistic range for this combatant.)<P>And i know what you mean about the broomstick -- when i was taking Sabre fencing in college, i would practice my moves with a replica wakizashi as even with the aluminum just-for-show-blade it was heavier (thus would make me work more) and roughly the right length. (discovered the Sixte parry quite by accident, and it sure came in handy when fighting the class southpaw!)<P>For the rest of your points i'm quite in agreement with you and hope we can keep this thread going -- at least until i can haul out the game rules. i'm thinking that imposing minimum-Strength requirements on some of those larger weapons the way i've done for some of my more fearsome axe mutations may be in order. (such as the little orphaned farm-girl packing the foster family's enchanted longsword probably has enough hilt room for both lily-white hands, and needs both just to lift the thing up!)<P>s.t.<P>|_|) <-- drink up!

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

Well, I've done a little more homework on weapons. <P>With modern technology and steel, even a 60" Claymore is only about 4 or 5 pounds. Compare this to a common longsword of 45" or so at 3 lbs, and a rapier at about 2 lbs. Not much difference. I believe our steel-technology has greatly advanced however, we can go thinner and have it still be strong. <P>So in the 16th century a two-handed sword would have been heavier. I'll throw out a figure - 6 lbs.? Not that much different I think. <P>Because where they save the weight is in the thickness of the blade, and that was something they could do centuries ago. Even 1/16 of inch thinner saves you a surprising amount.<P>I think your gaming rules can be a little lenient with everything but the most mammoth blades, given there's only about a pound difference. Maybe an "if the sword is bigger than you are" rule, awkwardness more a factor than weight, a severe handicap based on <I>height</I> if you have a two-handed sword that will bite the ground if you do a standard moulinette (windmill motion for those scratching their heads right about now). That would be better for planting cabbages than fighting. lol <P>Oh, the link is to some site called "Swords of Honor" but imagine it's the same, just a different distributor.<p>[ May 22, 2002: Message edited by: Marileangorifurnimaluim ]

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

Hi sword-fans! Here's some great info from Lostgaeriel (she's given me permission to post it). We've both come to the conclusion that modern replicas have slightly longer grips to accomodate the larger average-sized hand these days. Enjoy!<P>*****<BR>Thanks for starting this thread on swordfighting. The info is very helpful. Sorry to divert the topic to weapon design, but form follows function, eh?<P>I decided to go to the local museum (the ROM - Royal Ontario Museum) the other day to revisit their display of weapons and armour. Got a better idea of size and scale of the swords and the component parts. <P>Two broadswords dated 900-1025 AD had blades about 30" and 36" with grips 4" and 6" respectively. The second, longer sword was a 'new type of blade for cut & thrust c. 900 AD'. So I assume these were used one-handed? (Sorry, they didn't give dimensions, so these are my estimates.) <P>They had one Great Sword (2-hander) dated 1280-1320 AD and the blade appeared to be about 48", which they described as 'longer than usual'. The grip was about 8" or 9", as was the guard (or cross).<P>There were two hand-and-a-half swords, one from 1350-1400 AD - 'long, stiff, sharply pointed steel blade useful for thrusting'. Grip approx. 6"-7". The other dated 1300-1350 AD had a blade with 'a more acute point and thicker cross-section for thrusting and cutting'. These swords brought about the beginning of the end of chain-mail since the sharp points could 'pop' the mail rings when thrusting. Partial plate armour began about 1200 AD.<P>Looking forward to more swordfighting lessons!<p>[ June 01, 2002: Message edited by: Marileangorifurnimaluim ]

[Estel the Descender]

I read in Froissart's <I>Chronicles</I> that a French squire used his two-handed sword as a lance during the battle of Poitiers. Presumably, he couched it like a lance. This was during the 1350s. <P>In <I>Ars Gladitoria:A Fighting Treatise, 15th century </I>by Fillipo Vadi (found in <A HREF="http://www.chronique.com/Library/Fighting/vadi_translation.html)" TARGET=_blank>http://www.chronique.com/Library/Fighting/vadi_translation.html)</A> Chapter 6 describes the very same cuts taught by Maril plus one: the thrust. Fendenti means the downward cuts, rota means the upward cuts, volanti are the horizontal cuts, and the punta is of course the thrust.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> <B>Chapter 6</B> <BR><I>The seven strokes of the sword</I> <P>We are fendenti and we do question, <BR>of often cleaving and cutting with sorrow <BR>head and teeth in a straight way, <P>and every low guard <BR>with our talent often we break , <BR>easily passing the one and the other. (NOTE: meaning "all of them") <P>Our strokes leave bloody marks, <BR>and if we mix with rota <BR>of all the art we'll do our support. <P>Fendente, we bring the fear of wounds, <BR>we come back in guard from passage to passage, <BR>note that we are not slow to wound. <P>I am the rota and I have in me such strenght, <BR>if I mix with other strokes: <BR>that I'll often notch the arrow. (NOTE: meaning to be dangerous). <P>I can't use loyalty and courtesy, <BR>rotating I pass trough straight fendente <BR>without hesitation I ruin arms and hands. <P>People gives me the name rota, <BR>I look for the sword's falsity, (NOTE: the Italian word is "falsit‡", and can be interpreted both as "false edge" and as "falsity". Considering the previous stanza and the following sentence, I think that the second meaning is to be preferred.) <BR>I sharpen the mind of he who uses me. <P>We are volanti and we always go crosswise, <BR>from knee upwards we wound, <BR>we are often banished by fendente and punte. <P>Across us without failing goes <BR>the upwards striking rota, <BR>and with fendente warms our cheeks. <P><B>Chapter 7</B> <BR><I>Of the punta</I> <P>I am she who question all the strokes, <BR>and I'm called the punta: <BR>I am venomous as the scorpion; <P>and I feel strong, daring and ready, <BR>I often cause the changing of stances <BR>when somebody uses me in combat <BR>and when I arrive my touch means harm. <P><B>Chapter 8</B> <BR><I>About cuts and thrusts</I> <P>Rota with fendente and volante <BR>against the thrusts are said, and so is shown <BR>that these are not so dangerous. <P>And when they (the thrusts) come at our presence, <BR>all blows make them lose the way, <BR>also losing in the process the chance to strike. <P>The swords stroke doesn't change direction: <BR>the punta has little value against he who quickly turns, <BR>the blows open their own way as they go. <P>If you haven't a weak memory, <BR>if the punta doesn't hit, it loses its burst, <BR>and then all other blows are good to defend. <P>Against one the thrust finds good use, <BR>and against many it does no more its duty: <BR>this is required by the document and act. (NOTE: the last part seems to be there only for the rhyme in Italian) <P>If the thrust turns into rota do not fear: <BR>if it takes not at once a good fendente, <BR>it remains without fruit, in my opinion. <P>Keep here your mind for a while, <BR>if punta enters and does not exit quickly, <BR>your partner will sorely strike back. <P>Cutting a blow your sword is dead <BR>if the point loses its way while striking <BR>unless the low cross helps you. <P>I'll strike a straight fendente with the sword <BR>and I'll pull you out of your stance, <BR>so that you go in a bad place. <P>Don't lose an hour of time <BR>and learn the long times with the serene hand, <BR>this puts you over the others and honors you. <P>Break every low stance. <BR>Low stances resist only weak loads, <BR>and so the heavier break them easily. <BR>A heavy weapon doesn't pass quickly in the opening, <BR>the light one comes and goes as an arrow with the bow. <BR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The strokes were evidently used to counter other strokes: it was assumed that the knight was wearing good ol' Milanese armor.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> <B>Chapter 15</B> <BR><I>Reason (principles) of sword against the rota.</I><P>There are many who base themselves <BR>in rotating strongly from each side; <BR>be sure to be warned <P>as he rotates his sword, <BR>rotate your own, and you'll win the tests. <P>Match yourself with him in striking, <BR>and be sure to go <P>with your sword after his one. <BR>To make this clearer to your mind, <P>you can go in boar's tooth, <BR>and if he rotates, <P>you also rise from low to high. <BR>Hear and understand my principles you <P>who are new to the art or expert too, <BR>I want you to be sure <P>that this is the true art and science. <BR>Consider that, for a scale's line <P>the partner will be in porta di ferro, <BR>this I put in your heart, <P>be in posta sagitaria. <BR>Be sure that your point doesn't sway, <P>that of the partner covers the sword, <BR>go slightly out of the way <P>straightening up sword and hand with the point. <BR>When your sword has come at the cross, <P>then do the thirteenth closing technique, <BR>as you see it well <P>painted in our book with seven papers. <BR>You can also use in this art <P>strokes and close techniques that you find simpler; <BR>leave the more complex, <P>take those favoring your side <BR>and often you'll have honour in the art. <P><B>Chapter 16 </B><BR><I>Sword teachings</I> <P>Your sword should be like <BR>a shield which covers you all. <BR>Now take this fruit, <P>which I give you for your mastery. <BR>Be sure that your sword never be, <P>striking or guarding, far from you. <BR>Oh, how a good thing it is <P>to have your sword doing a short run. <BR>Your point should be directed in the face <P>of the partner, in guards or while striking; <BR>you'll take away his courage, <P>seeing always the point in front of him. <BR>And you'll do your play always in front, <P>with your sword and with small turning, <BR>with serene and agile hand, <P>often breaking the partner's time, <BR>you'll weave a web well different from a spider’s. <BR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I hope my contribution helps!<p>[ June 01, 2002: Message edited by: Estel the Descender ]

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

Estel, what an excellent contribution, thank you! If anyone else has something to add, go for it! This is not my private speech. <P>Estel, I love the personification of the blade in this and will keep that attitude in mind. Very interesting. Also, my text did not mention the thrust at all, which I wonder why not. I suspect because it was on two-handed fighting specifically. Shish-kabab on a 48" long blade may be a bit of a problem for the next swing.<P>Great stuff!<P>-Maril

[Joy]

Thank you all for this information. This is more than I ever thought I could know or ever want to know about sword fighting.<P>Maril and Estel, a heartfelt thanks to you both.

[Knight of Gondor]

Golly-olly, you people put some work (or at least some copy-paste work) into this stuff. Sadly, however, I hardly think that writing like this helps (especially when one doesn't own a sword, or reasonable facsimille) to learn. I think a personal or group instructor is the best.<P>Nevtalathiel, I'll tell you why you have no ninju-elves! They jump out and go AIEEE and the orcs go "<i>twang twang</i> and the arrows go thud and they fall dead. Duh! :-D

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

Hi Knight, glad you enjoyed it, even if it wasn't what you were looking for. I think for the most part everything here is original writing, at least I know my part is. 19th century texts aren't always so descriptive. Did you find the videos Bob Anderson recommended?<P>-Maril

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

Hi guys, more info from Lostgaeriel:<P><BR>Hi Marileangorifurnimaluim!<P>UPDATE/CORRECTIONS to Sword info<P>My previous visit to the ROM was about 20 minutes, I stopped in between appointments, so I was a bit rushed. I've since gone back and spent more than an hour carefully examining and sketching the swords and armour. I even took a tape measure to get more accurate dimensions. (Even so, it's difficult to measure articles that are two feet behind glass.)<P>The two broadswords dated 900-1025 AD had blades about <B>26" and 30"</B>.<P>The blade of the Great Sword (2-hander) dated 1280-1320 AD was <B>closer to 40" to perhaps 44" </B> rather than 48" I previously estimated. Still it was described as 'longer than usual' and was the same length as the approx. 42"-44" blade of a Scottish Claymore dated early 1500s. The notes in the display claimed that the claymore was similar to two-handed swords used in Central Europe but it had a slightly shorter blade and angled guards. (The claymore had a 10-12" two-handed grip.) So I'm guessing that a 48" Great Sword is not out of the question.<P>The blade of the hand-and-a-half sword from 1350-1400 AD was <B>about 36" and the grip was closer to 8" or 9"</B>.<P>Cross sections for cutting swords are: <BR><=> or <x> [flat with sharp edges or fullered with tapered sharp edges]<BR>Cross sections for cut & thrust swords are:<BR><0> or ^ or <> [thicker center with tapered sharp edges or triangular or diamond-shaped]<P><B>Average weight/mass of a sword was only 2-3 lb or 0.9-1.4 kg!!!</B><P>NOT Swords:<P>Full suit of plate armour massed/weighed about 18-27 kg or 40-60 lb. That’s no heavier than field packs carried by infantry in World War I.<P>There was a <B>buckler</B> on display. That's a small shield used in foot combat 1200s-1600. Some were round, others rectangular. This one was round from Wales, used in the early 1500s, about 12" in diameter. It was made of concentric rings of rivets and had a 2" globe-shaped boss or finial at the center. The overall shape of the shield was like a straw hat with an upturned brim (with the boss on top). That is concave from the outer edge inverting to convex at the center. This shape boggled my mind – not at all what I expected. I expected a convex shape that sort of wraps around the arm/body.<P>An example of an Italian Barbut c. 1460 - a light helmet (shoulder length) with t-shape opening in front for vision and ventilation was 5 ½ lb or 2.5 kg. The smooth round surfaces of this plate-metal helmet deflected the most powerful personal weapons of the day.<P>I've got some more info on spurs and sword-making and sword decoration (blueing, fire-guilding, etching, engraving, chiselling, chasing/embossing), but I'm a bit fuzzy on it.<p>[ August 09, 2002: Message edited by: Marileangorifurnimaluim ]

[Saxony Tarn]

re: sword dimensions -- yup, just as i thought!<P>s.t.

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

Welcome back, Saxony!<P> Maril

[Saxony Tarn]

why thank you Maril!<P>actually i haven't been far... just teaching myself how to make little chainmail for little warriors. Amazing how a 3/4 sleeve hauberk for a 13" tall fighter takes about 2700 rings -- i should probably put it on the postal scale at the office & see how much it really weighs (anything close to the 23# maildress that i borrowed for my Viking Night gig, and needed a chiropractor after wearing! Maybe a spinoff thread about armor is in order?)<P>Anybody know where i can get scaled-down sword letter openers? (LOTR knockoffs welcome esp. if they have more than Glamdring & Sting!) Museum Replicas seems to have discontinued their line... B( (will go check the knife shop at the Mall, but no high hopes, really)<P>s.t.

[Lostgaeriel]

Ooh! I saw some of those sword letter openers last month in a blacksmith's shop in St. Jacobs (near Kitchener, Ontario). I'm going up that way next week - I'll try to pop in and check out where they get them - wholesaler. (I think they are the only metal objects that aren't made in the shop.)<P>Hold on! You can contact them yourself! Here's the info on the place:<P>Forge and Anvil Metal Studio<BR>1411 King St. North,<BR>BOX 549, ST. JACOBS, <BR>ONTARIO CANADA NOB 2NO<P>Homepage: <A HREF="http://www.forgeandanvil.com" TARGET=_blank>www.forgeandanvil.com</A> <BR>E-mail: info@forgeandanvil.com<BR>Tel: 519-664-3622<BR>Fax: (519) 664-1828<p>[ August 20, 2002: Message edited by: Lostgaeriel ]

[Saxony Tarn]

well bless your heart Lostgariel, i'll go click on that link now!<P>And here is a very large drink for your .sig file...<P>|_|) <-- don't drink and spar, unless you are a student of the Eight Drunken Monkeys martial arts discipline or something like that...<P>s.t.

[Saxony Tarn]

woof! they're beauty, but an awful lot more than i was prepared to pay for this little guy's equipment... hmm... must lower standards... B(<P>s.t.

[Davin]

I've been fighting with swords (and sword like objects for several years) and I have to say that I'm not that bad..atleast I don't think I am.<P>I normally fight with my brother, who just so happends to be left handed, which is quite funny. But I have grown used to it.<P>First off..we started with just plain old sticks. Then we found some old fiberglass hockey sticks and carved them into fairly sharp and pointy swords, and we fought constantly with them. Then one day I deccided to slide the blade across his neck, and he got fiberglass splinters all over his neck. Then we broke our swords fighting (I broke mine on him..and he broke his on my sword before it broke). Then we used metal (tent) poles, but I hit him in the head several times, and bent them all out of shape. SO we bought huge oak bokens, which we bruised the heck out of each other with, and we still use them. We also went through probably two dozen light saber toys..which break very easily. We also made other plastic/wood/metal swords over the course of our fighting careers (hehe). And now we are both ordering LotR replica's off the net. I can't wait to use them....but I have a bad feeling that a hand might go missing one day....so I'd best be carefull.<P>