Elves visiting Numenor.

[Mithalwen]

We know from the tale of Aldarion and Erendis that the elves of Aman could and did visit Numenor and that the men of Numenor could and did visit Middle Earth.

Now since the Numenoreans surely were originally taght shipbuilding and sailing by Cirdan's people prior to their leaving for their new land so the elves of Middle Earth must have the knowledge amd skill to build and sail ships to Numenor but did they? obviously it was not an insignificant journey but elves have time at their disposal. Now I must cnfess that I have not read every word of HoME and I may be missing something obvious. Were they under a ban?

[Inziladun]

I can't think of anything textual to support this, but maybe the Lindon Elves just had it in their minds to leave the Edain to their own devices in Númenor, at least at first. Then, perhaps when the Númenóreans began voyaging east, and the Eldar in Middle-earth learned they were visited by parties from Eressëa, they thought that level of contact with Elves was sufficient. Maybe they foresaw the eventual issue that arose with the Númenóreans desiring immortality.

[Formendacil]

This could be a case of Tolkien simply not mentioning it (I too, do not recall a single reference anywhere in his published corpus about Elves sailing from Middle-earth to Númenor).

It could also be a case of the Elves forbearing from sailing west so as to avoid the Blessed Realm. Though not exiles in the strictest sense (possibly barring Galadriel and other "chief leaders"--Celebrimbor, perhaps--who might have been under the Ban yet, as suggested in the secondary writings about Galadriel), there is a sense where if they left Middle-earth, they weren't going to come back.

In this respect, it might be a Noldorin analogue to Legolas's reaction to meeting the sea-gulls: before he heard the gulls, he was content in Middle-earth, but never thereafter; before the Noldor started across Belegaer, they were content in Middle-earth, but if they started across they would not return.

There's also a question of whether the Elves would have been entirely welcome in the west (not Númenor, but beyond). The Blessed Realm was no longer forbidden to them after the War of Wrath, so the decision of Galadriel and others to remain in Middle-earth does have a sense of persisting in their "sin," so to speak. Again, to use Galadriel as an example, the decision to go west by the Elves (well, the Noldor--not so much Legolas and his kind) is a sign of repentance, a willingness to fully reconcile with not only the Valar, but with the other Elves still in Valinor--including the re-embodied dead.

With this in mind, it seems somewhat natural to me that the Elves of Middle-earth would avoid going to Númenor. It would not be out of the question that they saw it as part of Valinor's sphere of influence, since it was distinctly analogous to Valinor (as it relates to the Elves), but for Men. And though no longer in dispute with Valinor, the Exiles remaining in Middle-earth do seem to have been 100% willing to put the past behind them.

[Zigûr]

We know that the High Elves who lingered in Middle-earth in the Second Age "wanted the peace and bliss and perfect memory of 'The West', and yet to remain on the ordinary earth where their prestige as the highest people... was greater than at the bottom of the hierarchy of Valinor." (Letter 131) Sauron encouraged the Elves to "make a separate independent paradise" in Middle-earth; "Gilgalad repulsed all such overtures, as also did Elrond" as well as Galadriel, but Celebrimbor was enthused.

Seemingly the leaders of the Elves were uninterested in the active development of Western Middle-earth into a 'paradise' (besides Celebrimbor) but still had an interest in their positions of eminence as well as resisting the ongoing evil in the world. So perhaps it could be suggested that on the one hand defending Middle-earth in the ongoing struggle against Morgoth's legacy was one concern, but there was another. Númenor was a gift of the Valar to Men. It had certain qualities which engendered the reluctance of those High Elves who lingered in Middle-earth, being founded and enriched by those who still lived or had returned to the place they were still unwilling to remove themselves to. It might, then, have had certain connotations which they were trying to avoid.

[Mithalwen]

Thanks for your comments. Some of them chime in with my own speculations - thanks for the ref to the letter Zigur, I can't remember reading that one.

I need to find the text reference but I think Gil-galad solicited the help of the Numenoreans to combat Sauron when he attacked Eregion but the messages may have been sent by Numenorean ships rather than Elvish ones.

Now there may have been a sense of letting well alone and of the prominent elves remaining, Elrond and Gil-galad were Middle Earth born, Galadriel either still under the ban or not desiring to return and Cirdan had his peculiar destiny.

Now regardless of which parentage Gil-galad is given he may have felt he had a special duty or destiny to maintain the struggle against Sauron. Elrond too but he perhaps of all would have the most motivation to visit Numenor? We don't know a lot about his relationship with Elros..maybe a visit would me more painful than a clean break.. in the same way he could have visited Arwen again before he sailed.

Or as has been pointed out it may be that the Elves did not want to impose themselves on the Numenoreans but once they had made contact elf ships were merrily going back and forth and they are just never mentioned.

[Belegorn Calenmir]

It could also be that the Elves were mostly too involved with the War of Sauron and Elves to visit Numenor that much. Tar-Aldarion in fact sailed to Middle-earth to assist Gil-Galad in the struggle, though some Elves visited Numenor during that time.

They called Aldarion's wife Uinen, the Lady of the Sea, to which she was hugely offended, since she felt like the Sea was stealing her husband from her.

So Elves, or at least some, did visit Numenor, though as the years went on, these visits became less and less frequent, especially after Adunakhor became king.

[Mornorngûr]

Putting aside the Elves of Middle-earth for a moment...

I have always felt that the Elves who came to Númenor to visit from Avalonne, were rather selfish in a way. I mean surely they only increased the temptation of the Númenorians by coming there, knowing full well that the reverse could not take place!. It is like sitting in front of a diabetic or obese child, and eating 12 Donuts whilst smiling at him, and then licking your fingers and saying "Mmmm Mmmm Mmmm".

A ban should also have been laid on the Eldar in my opinion.

thoughts?

[Mithalwen]

Disagree. The early Numenoreans before being corrupted would have been aware that they could not become immortal by going to Valinor

[Belegorn]

I cannot say the Elves were selfish when they taught and brought so many gifts to the Númenóreans who became the best sailors in M-E.

"the Eldar came to the Edain and enriched them with knowledge and many gifts" [RotK, p. 352]

They even tried to stay the shadow spreading among the people who longed for an Elvish fate rather than their own, "this we hold to be true, that your home is not here, neither in the Land of Aman nor anywhere within the Circles of the World. And the Doom of Men, that they should depart, was at first a gift of Ilúvatar... some grew willful and proud and would not yield, until life was reft from them... we fear that the shadow arises once more and grows again in your hearts. though you be the Dúnedain, fairest of Men, who escaped the Shadows of old and fought valiantly against it." [Sil, p. 327]

They told the King and his people that they were just visitors in this world, with a fate apart from the Elves, but there were now Men who would hold onto life until they became inept rather than freely give up their lives like Aragorn and the early Kings did. They knew they were not immortal, Elros chose to be mortal, but his later descendants wished too to have the choice to become Elves and regretted Elros' decision.

[Mornorngûr]

True, But I did say 'rather selfish in a way'. I am not disputing the fact that indeed they did help to enrich Numenor and brought many things thither. However it would still seem to me that one rule for the elves, and another for the Dunedain, could only lead to jealousy or temptation.

[Belegorn]

Different rules and different people. No matter how close the Dúnedain resembled the Elves ["in all things more like to the First-born than any other of the kindreds of Men", Sil, p. 321], they were not Elves and had different fates. However, "A land was made for the Edain to dwell in, neither part of Middle-earth nor of Valinor, for it was sundered from either by a wide sea; yet it was NEARER to Valinor." [pp. 320-321] Though mortal they were given a place closer to the immortals than any people. It does seem that for many long life did breed this desire for immortality as they found much delight in the world. I'd say the Dúnedain were being the selfish ones. They were granted great gifts, and still were jealous of the fate of another people. As a result, in wanting more, they lost much, their long life and other gifts although for the purer Dúnedain in the 3rd Age these other gifts still seemed to be common among them. I cannot see those Elves thinking about themselves here, they still came secretly to the island to see the Faithful when the Kings were against them.

[Mornorngûr]

Indeed the Numenorians, like you say were far more selfish. They should of just been content with the great things they had already been granted, but alas! even with real men in this world, jealousy is something that runs through the veins of most, and men being men are never content and always desire more (well most men). I just think this could have been avoided altogether if the Eldar were not permitted to visit, regardless of selfishness.

[Belegorn]

I'm not sure if that's a good idea. These people, the descendants of the Edain, were elf-friends. They spoke the Elvish tongue from since before they had Númenor as a homeland. They lived among them in Beleriand for years. It's not like intercourse was something new between them and the Elves. The royal family was descended from Elves.

[Mornorngûr]

There were also Elve's in Middle-Earth, they could still have visited them and had intercourse with them.

[Belegorn]

Yea, but they did have intercourse with Elves both at Númenor and in Middle-earth, usually with the Elves of Lindon, and most especially in lending their military aid.

[Mornorngûr]

Yeh but what im saying is: If they only had interaction with the Elve's of Middle-Earth and not those of Numenor, then nobody would be deprived, and the temptation to break the ban would not be present.

[Belegorn]

I think that it should be kept in mind that this was not a ban the Eldar had given to the Númenóreans. It was a ban of the Valar since Manwë Súlimo did not want the Númenóreans to "overpass the limits set to their bliss" [Akallabêth, p. 323] I would say that although they desired an Elvish destiny it was the blessings bestowed upon them that stoked their jealousies as "the desire of everlasting life, to escape from death and the ending of delight, grew strong upon them; and ever as their power and glory grew greater their unquiet increased." [Akallabêth, p. 325] I think their unrest was tied to the gifts they received as High Men and the resulting experiences.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

I think their unrest was tied to the gifts they received as High Men and the resulting experiences.

I agree. Consider Professor Tolkien's remarks in Letter 131 when discussing Númenor: "Reward on earth is more dangerous for men than punishment!"
It was the gifts of the Valar to Men which catalysed their downfall, but only through the volition of Men, not the action of the Valar.
At the same time, however, I think that while the responsibility lies with Men, there is a clear parallel with the destruction ultimately caused by the Valar bringing the Eldar to Aman. The persistence of the Valar in the First and Second Ages in interfering in the natural course of events is usually both a blessing and a curse.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

there is a clear parallel with the destruction ultimately caused by the Valar bringing the Eldar to Aman.

What do you mean by this?

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

What do you mean by this?

Precisely what I say. When the Valar debated the matter of bringing the Eldar to Aman, Ulmo counselled that "the Quendi should be left free to walk as they would in Middle-earth, and with their gifts of skill to order all the lands and heal their hurts." This view did not prevail, however, and the Eldar were invited to Aman. As Professor Tolkien consequently observes, "From this summons came many woes that afterwards befell." ("Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor")

If they had not done so, doubtless the Eldar would not have achieved some of the same heights of power and glory that they did under the tutelage of the Valar. At the same time, however, they would not have been sundered as a people, nor would the Noldor have rebelled and caused so much havoc. Is there not a parallel to Númenor? If the Edain had been left to their own devices they may not have reached the same heights, nor fallen to the same lows, as they consequently did. Again, "Reward on earth is more dangerous for men than punishment!"

[Inziladun]

This is a bit off-topic, but it occurs to me that apparently no Dwarves ever saw Númenor. Did they even know about it? Since their area of renown to Men was as warriors and weaponsmiths, would that be a reason for the Númenóreans never inviting them in the early years of the realm, when there was peace? What of the later times, in which Númenor turned to war? Did they do business with Dwarves?

I realize that Dwarves seem to have had a aversion to the Sea, so that might after all be the simplest explanation.

[Zigûr]

In "Of Dwarves and Men" Professor Tolkien observes that the Longbeards, who we must remember were the only surviving Western House of the Khazâd by the Second Age, had most traffic with that large portion of the House of Hador which never ventured as far West as Beleriand. Hence, it would seem to me that the Longbeards at least were simply too far away from Beleriand to have contact with those Western Edain, High Men, who went to Númenor. Those who did encounter them, refugees from Belegost and Nogrod, fled East to Khazad-dûm. I may be mistaken, but it would appear that the re-establishment of mines in the remains of the Ered Luin did not occur until later, further limiting conflict with Western travellers at this time.

Regardless, when the Númenóreans did visit Middle-earth, they usually came south. Professor Tolkien makes a point of remarking in the same essay that "The first ships of the Númenóreans appeared off the coasts of Middle-earth about Second Age 600, but no rumour of this portent reached the distant North." Seemingly the Dwarves were simply too far away, in addition to being on the other side of Noldor territory which the Númenóreans avoided. Even during the youth of Aldarion in which the Men of Númenor were friendly with the Noldor, they "went but seldom further than the land of Gil-galad." (Aldarion and Erendis) Even Aldarion himself when in the north only sojourned "far in Lindon and the west of Eriador." So there would appear to be little or no concourse between the Dúnedain and the Dwarves at that point in their history. When the Númenóreans became imperialistic and warlike their power was, apart from the Faithful, still largely concentrated in Harad from Umbar southwards, very distant from any Dwarven lands, Western or Eastern, further limiting the possibility of contact. Only the Faithful ended up close to them geographically, by which time the doors of Moria had long been shut. Despite a long-standing relationship between Dwarves and Men in general, perhaps the first major encounter between these two particular groups was when both nations participated in the Last Alliance, well after Númenor itself had been destroyed.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Is there not a parallel to Númenor? If the Edain had been left to their own devices they may not have reached the same heights, nor fallen to the same lows, as they consequently did. Again, "Reward on earth is more dangerous for men than punishment!"

I see what you meant. When I read it, it did not make sense to me. There is also the Melkor element in both that sent the whole thing down in flames. In Aman his lies spread among the Noldor further fanning the flames. In Númenor Sauron, like Melkor did in his first meeting with Men, had them in the end putting Melkor as Lord. So the finishing touches in Aman and in Númenor were enacted by rebellious Ainur.

The one seems to have started with reincarnation and a 2nd marriage, making strife between siblings, the other with the decision of one sibling to a fate in which his descendants would all be mortal and for the most part come to regret their Fate.