Is Gandalf the only one? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

12-18-2003, 03:36 PM

has anyone else in past ages challenged a balrog and won? do you have to be a Maiar to be victorious?

Arwen Imladris · 12-18-2003, 04:11 PM

Yes others have killed balrogs, always by somehow throwing them down cliffs, however, the person doing the killing usually dies in the attempt.

Mahal · 12-18-2003, 05:13 PM

No, all the others were Elfes and not maia spirits. But like Arwen said most died in the attempt, like ecthelion who I tought drowned together with Gothmog lord of the Balrogs.

Meoshi · 12-19-2003, 05:45 PM

Three cases of fighting with Balrogs are reported. Two have already been mentioned (Gandalf, Ecthelion), and the third was Glorfindel, who died fighting a Balrog while escaping with refugees from ruined Gondolin.

Legolas · 12-20-2003, 12:23 AM

Glorfindel and Ecthelion, Noldorin lords of Gondolin, slew a balrog each, and each died in the process - just as Gandalf did.

Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar · 12-20-2003, 11:07 AM

Just wondering- how can elves slay a corrupted maia? they are not as powerful, even though they are elven lords.

Earendilyon · 12-20-2003, 11:29 AM

Tuor, just wondering: why do you add 'Cursed by the Valar' to your name? IIRC, Tuor was the only Man (Human and Elvish alike) who was reckoned to be a Vala! Or is this just a typo for "Túrin Turambar etc"? In that case, his whole family was Doomed, but only by a fromer Vala by the name of Morgoth.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 12:46 PM December 20, 2003: Message edited by: Earendilyon ]

Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar · 12-20-2003, 11:51 AM

To confuse people like you. [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]
Not a typo, this is my name. It is basically nonsense, but it sounds interesting.

Eöl · 12-20-2003, 11:53 AM

to answer tuor's question :
i think they were equal or less powerfull than the elven lords just because of their corruption. Agreed, they had great power and it waxed and waned with melko's but i think their power lessened by their ensaring,but also in that time the Noldoli were mighty indeed.

But then again, were the Gondothlim that strong? Because in BOLT Rog slays alot Balrogs.

Mahal · 12-20-2003, 01:26 PM

And the elves were also stronger because they still had the light of the trees in their eyes.

Finwe · 12-20-2003, 02:12 PM

Rog is a fairly controversial character because he is described as slaying several Balrogs, whereas much stronger warriors like Ecthelion and Glorfindel fought one, and still died while killing them. Unless there are different "grades" of Balrogs, with different levels of strength, I don't think that Rog could have slain many Balrogs. Most likely, he would have been able to slay the "weaker" ones.

Eöl · 12-20-2003, 02:17 PM

hm, is it stated that Glorfindel and Ecthelion were stronger? because it is said that Rog was of a house(don't exactly remember the name) with alot of miners and escaped thralls from melko and they were the strongest ?

correct me if i'm wrong finwe(i'm learning from this [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] )

Finwe · 12-20-2003, 02:37 PM

True, Rog was of a very strong House, but Ecthelion was one of the greatest captains of Gondolin, which is shown by his guardianship of the last gate. Only one of the strongest could be trusted with that post, and since Ecthelion had charge of it, I assume that he was one of the strongest. As for Glorfindel, I admit, it is an assumption. Perhaps it was mere chance that while they were fighting, the Balrog fell off of the cliff, I'm not sure.

Maédhros · 12-20-2003, 03:05 PM

Quote:

But then again, were the Gondothlim that strong? Because in BOLT Rog slays alot Balrogs.

The issue of Balrogs at the Fall of Gondolin is interesting. In the Tale of the Fall of Gondolin, there are hundreds of Balrogs.
From the Tale

Quote:

yet others were creatures of pure flame that writhed like ropes of molten metal, and they brought to ruin whatever fabric they came nigh, and iron and stone melted before them and became as water, and upon them rode the Balrogs in hundreds; and these were the most dire of all those monsters which Melko devised against Gondolin.

But that conception changed of course:

Quote:

ibid.
The idea that Morgoth disposed of a 'host' of Balrogs endured long, but in a late note my father said that only very few ever existed -- 'at most seven'.

So we have an evolution of the number of Balrogs. It appears that only Gothmog and the Balrog slained by Glorfindel were the ones who perished in the Tale and the others were to be discarded.

Regarding Rog:

Quote:

ibid.
as the Noldoli sing yet, and many of the Orcs were borne backward into the fires below; but the men of Rog leapt even upon the coils of the serpents and came at those Balrogs and smote them grievously, for all they had whips of Same and claws of steel, and were in stature very great. They battered them into nought, or catching at their whips wielded these against them, that they tore them even as they had aforetime torn the Gnomes; and the number of Balrogs that perished was a marvel and dread to the hosts of Melko, for ere that day never had any of the Balrogs been slain by the hand of Elves or Men.

It seems to me that these balrogs cannot be taken to be of the later conception. In the examples of Echtelion and Glorfindel the Tale is especific by stating that it was a single Balrog, unlike with the case of the Men of Rog.
Also in the Tale, Tuor slew five balrogs too, which cannot be taken to be of the later conception IMO.

Earendilyon · 12-22-2003, 10:22 AM

Tuor, I see you understand [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Quote:

It is basically nonsense

Oroaranion · 12-22-2003, 03:13 PM

Is this the same Glorfindel that came across Frodo and Strider? Or was that another Elf with a very similar name?

Finwe · 12-22-2003, 03:23 PM

It was the same Glorfindel. He alone of all the Elves was sent back to Middle-earth, to help in the fight against Sauron. I'm assuming that he was sent back because he sacrifced his life so that the future of Beleriand (i.e. Earendil) could be saved. Also, Elves are given a choice, after their period of "atonement" in the Halls of Mandos is over. They can either stay in the Halls of Mandos, or be "reincarnated" into bodies identical to the ones that they "bore" in their previous life. Glorfindel apparently chose the latter, and was thus able to come to Middle-earth to help the Free Peoples fight Sauron.

Lost One · 12-22-2003, 06:29 PM

Inside Middle-earth, the LOTR Glorfindel is indeed the same as the Gondolin character. Outside (as it were) it was a bit of a fix-up, as I understand it. Tolkien reused the name, and then retrospectively decided that they were the same character. He might have done this also with another reused name - Legolas - but didn't. This makes Glorfindel an interesting character, and possibly one with unfulfilled potential - so far as I'm aware, he was the only reborn elf to return from Valinor to Middle-earth (quite how he returned I'm not sure - are we ever told? Perhaps he came with the Istari). This would suggest some major role or fate, which never in fact happened.

12-18-2003, 03:36 PM	#1
Mansoron Guest Posts: n/a	Is Gandalf the only one? has anyone else in past ages challenged a balrog and won? do you have to be a Maiar to be victorious?

12-18-2003, 04:11 PM	#2
Arwen Imladris Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: In a box with a fox Posts: 1,347	Yes others have killed balrogs, always by somehow throwing them down cliffs, however, the person doing the killing usually dies in the attempt. __________________ "Wake up! Wake up! Wake up, sleepies, we must go, yes, we must go at once."

12-18-2003, 05:13 PM	#3
Mahal Haunting Spirit Join Date: May 2003 Location: Paradox Realm Posts: 66	No, all the others were Elfes and not maia spirits. But like Arwen said most died in the attempt, like ecthelion who I tought drowned together with Gothmog lord of the Balrogs. __________________ *A new technology does not add or substract something. It changes everything.*

12-20-2003, 12:23 AM	#5
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,850	Glorfindel and Ecthelion, Noldorin lords of Gondolin, slew a balrog each, and each died in the process - just as Gandalf did. __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

12-20-2003, 11:07 AM	#6
Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar Wight Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Somewhere, wandering in middle earth... Posts: 137	Just wondering- how can elves slay a corrupted maia? they are not as powerful, even though they are elven lords. __________________ Turin Turambar, Master of Fate, by Fate Mastered. No, im not turin. Or tuor. Or anyone. I am not!

12-19-2003, 05:45 PM	#4
Meoshi Wight Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Atop the peak of Kalormë Posts: 163	Three cases of fighting with Balrogs are reported. Two have already been mentioned (Gandalf, Ecthelion), and the third was Glorfindel, who died fighting a Balrog while escaping with refugees from ruined Gondolin.

12-20-2003, 11:29 AM	#7
Earendilyon Wight Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 166	Tuor, just wondering: why do you add 'Cursed by the Valar' to your name? IIRC, Tuor was the only Man (Human and Elvish alike) who was reckoned to be a Vala! Or is this just a typo for "Túrin Turambar etc"? In that case, his whole family was Doomed, but only by a fromer Vala by the name of Morgoth. <font size=1 color=339966>[ 12:46 PM December 20, 2003: Message edited by: Earendilyon ] __________________ "For I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words Bother me." Dominus Anulorum TolkienGateway - large Tolkien encyclopedia.

12-20-2003, 11:51 AM	#8
Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar Wight Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Somewhere, wandering in middle earth... Posts: 137	To confuse people like you. [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] Not a typo, this is my name. It is basically nonsense, but it sounds interesting. __________________ Turin Turambar, Master of Fate, by Fate Mastered. No, im not turin. Or tuor. Or anyone. I am not!

12-20-2003, 11:53 AM	#9
Eöl Animated Skeleton Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Nan Elmoth Posts: 35	to answer tuor's question : i think they were equal or less powerfull than the elven lords just because of their corruption. Agreed, they had great power and it waxed and waned with melko's but i think their power lessened by their ensaring,but also in that time the Noldoli were mighty indeed. But then again, were the Gondothlim that strong? Because in BOLT Rog slays alot Balrogs. __________________ '...though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again,from you and from me a new star shall arise' -Huor

12-20-2003, 01:26 PM	#10
Mahal Haunting Spirit Join Date: May 2003 Location: Paradox Realm Posts: 66	And the elves were also stronger because they still had the light of the trees in their eyes. __________________ *A new technology does not add or substract something. It changes everything.*

12-20-2003, 02:12 PM	#11
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	Rog is a fairly controversial character because he is described as slaying several Balrogs, whereas much stronger warriors like Ecthelion and Glorfindel fought one, and still died while killing them. Unless there are different "grades" of Balrogs, with different levels of strength, I don't think that Rog could have slain many Balrogs. Most likely, he would have been able to slay the "weaker" ones. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

12-20-2003, 02:17 PM	#12
Eöl Animated Skeleton Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Nan Elmoth Posts: 35	hm, is it stated that Glorfindel and Ecthelion were stronger? because it is said that Rog was of a house(don't exactly remember the name) with alot of miners and escaped thralls from melko and they were the strongest ? correct me if i'm wrong finwe(i'm learning from this [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] ) __________________ '...though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again,from you and from me a new star shall arise' -Huor

12-20-2003, 02:37 PM	#13
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	True, Rog was of a very strong House, but Ecthelion was one of the greatest captains of Gondolin, which is shown by his guardianship of the last gate. Only one of the strongest could be trusted with that post, and since Ecthelion had charge of it, I assume that he was one of the strongest. As for Glorfindel, I admit, it is an assumption. Perhaps it was mere chance that while they were fighting, the Balrog fell off of the cliff, I'm not sure. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

12-22-2003, 03:13 PM	#16
Oroaranion Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Dol Amroth Posts: 94	Is this the same Glorfindel that came across Frodo and Strider? Or was that another Elf with a very similar name? __________________ I go to my fathers. And even in their mighty company I shall not now be ashamed. I felled the black serpent. A grim morn, and a glad day, and a golden sunset!

12-22-2003, 03:23 PM	#17
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	It was the same Glorfindel. He alone of all the Elves was sent back to Middle-earth, to help in the fight against Sauron. I'm assuming that he was sent back because he sacrifced his life so that the future of Beleriand (i.e. Earendil) could be saved. Also, Elves are given a choice, after their period of "atonement" in the Halls of Mandos is over. They can either stay in the Halls of Mandos, or be "reincarnated" into bodies identical to the ones that they "bore" in their previous life. Glorfindel apparently chose the latter, and was thus able to come to Middle-earth to help the Free Peoples fight Sauron. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

12-22-2003, 06:29 PM	#18
Lost One Haunting Spirit Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 67	Inside Middle-earth, the LOTR Glorfindel is indeed the same as the Gondolin character. Outside (as it were) it was a bit of a fix-up, as I understand it. Tolkien reused the name, and then retrospectively decided that they were the same character. He might have done this also with another reused name - Legolas - but didn't. This makes Glorfindel an interesting character, and possibly one with unfulfilled potential - so far as I'm aware, he was the only reborn elf to return from Valinor to Middle-earth (quite how he returned I'm not sure - are we ever told? Perhaps he came with the Istari). This would suggest some major role or fate, which never in fact happened.