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#41 | |
Laconic Loreman
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#42 | |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 6,046
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I think it is Fordim who has cottoned on to what was bothering me about Servant Sam and Flip Pip--Fordim with his literary eye. I shall have to work harder to reach you literalists who love to quote the Letters! Sauce and Aiwendil and Silmiel, it is how the Edwardian structures were presented by Tolkien which drew my questions, not simply the purported historical references to the social organisation of the time. Remember, in On Fairey Stories Tolkien suggested that stuff gets into the Cauldron of Story not because it is historicallly true and verifiable(which it may be), but because the story demands it.
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Seen from this perspective, I think it is quite right that we are made uneasy (or at least I am) by all this 'sirring'. It 'sirs' the pot for later... But about this evolution of evil, Fordim, well, I don't want to get mixed up with your Monster thread. ![]()
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. Last edited by Bêthberry; 07-08-2004 at 02:12 PM. |
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#43 | |
Gibbering Gibbet
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Beyond cloud nine
Posts: 1,851
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So it just occured to me: Middle-Earth is saved by the Gaffer! |
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#44 | ||
Corpus Cacophonous
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: A green and pleasant land
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Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind! |
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#45 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Where you want me to be
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Just a quick note on the use of 'sir'
When Sam uses such terms as 'sir' and 'Mr Frodo' in the beginning of the book it is because he is regarded as no more than a servant and a friend of Frodo, though he could hardly be considered a close friend of him, unlike Merry, Pippin and Fatty Bolger. However, this is all used to show the transition all the characters - hobbits in particular - go through as the story eventuates.
Later when Sam calls Frodo 'Mr Frodo' and 'sir' we don't see it as he is doing it because of a class division, but he is actually using it as a term of affection to show that he has become a true best friend of Frodo and has transcended the barrier of class divisions though it may not appear so to others who don't know them so well. After all, the relationship between Frodo and Sam at the end of the story is much more than servant and master; and this shown through the term 'Mr Frodo', which we all find 'cute' about Sam's personality- it becomes rather like an affectionate nickname that you would give to someone close to you like your brother or sister.
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Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta. |
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#46 | |
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
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I think we also have to remember that Frodo is older than Sam. I can imagine Sam first meeting Frodo as a young child, helping his dad in Bilbo's garden. Probably he was introduced to him as 'Mr. Frodo', & had called him that from then on.
I can't help wondering also, in the Light of Mark 1230's comments on the significance of Frodo's dreams in the last chapter, if there's any significance in the last paragraph: Quote:
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“Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects." Last edited by davem; 07-11-2004 at 03:50 AM. |
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#47 | |
Princess of Skwerlz
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles)
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
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#48 | |
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
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And, yes, I know he calls the others Mr Merry & Mr Pippin & they call him Sam, but I'd still put that down to the way they were probably introduced to each other. I accept there is an acknowledgement of 'roles' within hobbit society, but I think this is more to do with their love of order. They do have an obsession with having a place for everything & everything in its place. I suspect they were all playing that game. More a case of Mr Bilbo lives at Bag End & Master Hamfast lives in Bagshot Row. Also, I suspect that when Sam was married with a family of his own he would have been generally referred to as Mr Gamgee by all but his friends. |
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#49 |
Deadnight Chanter
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slightly off topic
I have to draw on my own resources to give you an analogy, even if I stray a bit off Tolkien
When I mused upon the subject in my own time, it struck me as really like to form of social nomenclature we employ down here, that is in (the country of) Georgia. It is the custom to call everybody by their first name (only politicians use family names, and at that in third person, not in direct speech). The honorific 'batoni/o' (relative to 'Master' rather than 'Mister') is applied to superiors by status or elders by age, but it also depends on how people are introduced to each other. To give personal example - the director I'm assistant to is called by me 'batono David' (i.e. Master David), but simply Dato (short form of David, to go in between friends) by a chap who's assistant to me and is younger than me too. Likewise, office driver is referred to as Master Tamaz by my superiors, though he be their subordinate, and I do not use honorific as we are close to each other.That is, if one tries to compare the titulage employees use to their hierarchical status, one would not find any connection. But it is not thing to which one pays heed to at all. If I were to slip and call my superior merely Dato, it would pass unnoticed (It would not with General Director, but not because he is General Director, but as he is megalomaniac and an exeption at that). Even if I'm appointed General Director (ha-ha), and become superior to everyone else, I would still use 'Master David' in case of my director, and personal names withouth honorific in other cases, as it is already formed into my personal custom. And all those (even mere acquaintances) who now call me simply George, would not change their habit because the change of my status. I'm near to what I'm driving at: the use of honorific is not strictly defined in hobbit society by any rules or social laws. It is very much dependent on the level of intimacy and/or on personal relationship between speakers, but also is dependent on the tradition already formed in certain circles. So, as Sam is in less proximity to Merry and Pippin, and they are at the same time friends to his employer, he feels obliged to use Mr when referring to them. In this, he underlines his respect for Frodo even more than in calling Frodo master. On the other hand, as Merry and Pippin are used to hear Frodo calling Sam merely Sam, they adopt the habit not to underline their superiority, but following Frodo's custom, and so it seems natural to them to call Sam Sam - it is the tradition of the circle, not more, not less. cheers
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Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time! |
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#50 |
Laconic Loreman
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This is just another example of Tolkien making the obvious connections between Frodo and Bilbo, maybe even the most important/peculiar one. I would have to go upstairs to get the exact quote but bottom line is Gildor says he saw Bilbo at the very spot where Frodo, company, and Gildor's elves were at.
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#51 | |
Deadnight Chanter
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to save the trouble of exercise...
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Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time! |
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#52 | ||||
Wight
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I know this has nothing to do with what any of you are discussing at the present moment, but I would just like to put a short input in on this chapter. Before two weeks ago, I had only read the books one time, which was over two years ago. I, for one, had forgotten most of the minor events in the book, seeing I was drawn into a long "movie-only" phase. I had forgotten all of the pleasures that the books brought out, but I had not forgotten one fact.
I remember when I was reading the books that I initially fell in love with Pippin's character. This changed, however, when I began to watch the movies, and I over time forgot why I loved Pippin so much. This all became a reality when I started reading the Fellowship two weeks ago. In this chapter mainly, I see how comical Peregrin Took actually is, but don't get me wrong, I am not only meaning "comical" in the fool-of-a-Took sort of way. Pippin Took is, as I find it, somewhat intellectual and comical all the same. What made me come to this conclusion are all of the quarrels Pippin and Frodo get into on their journey through the Shire...well, not always quarrels, but also just brief conversations between the two. Such instances such as the remarks on heavy and light packing just as they start out: Quote:
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"The price for freedom is far more than the greatest amount of gold or jewels, yet it is rarely prized among those who have it." "Do what you can, while you can, and make it last forever." ~*Rinfan*~ |
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#53 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Essex, England
Posts: 887
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davem, re your question
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#54 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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So does that mean that Frodo fells safe or does Frodo does not have nightmares due to some power the elves possesses?
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If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with the bull - The Phantom. |
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#55 |
Pilgrim Soul
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
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Could be either or both ....... both Rivendell and Lorien are places where restful sleep are found and while they ARE perhaps the safest places in Middle Earth due to the power of Galadriel and Elrond to protect them - there may be more to it than that ... I think when they arrive in Lorien Galadriel tells them that they will sleep in peace despite the grief at the loss of Gandalf .... and it maybe that the elves have some power beyond providing a safe environment. I read somewhere in HoME maybe ...... that the finest elvish singers could make their listener "see" what they were singing about ...... but since Elvish sleep and dreams are apparently rather different to mortals ..... it is perhap a hard matter to judge on..
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“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace |
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#56 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Ya I think Mithalwen is right ,elves must have some power over peaceful sleep,otherwise we can't explain why all the members of the company slept peacefully only when they were in the land of elves or the elves near them.
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If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with the bull - The Phantom. |
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#57 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Essex, England
Posts: 887
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Fordim, re your earlier point
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http://www.forum.barrowdowns.com/sho...nor+characters The way we can take one of a multitude of 'minor' characters from the story, and the plot totally changes, shows what an intricate and complex storyline Tolkien dreamt up. No gafffer, no Lord of the Rings (well 100 pages or so!) |
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#58 |
Guest
Posts: n/a
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If anyone has the Houghton Mifflin version of the Fellowship of the ring, on page 82 could anyone find me an example of an Elvish aphorism?
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#59 | |
Princess of Skwerlz
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles)
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"Three is company" is another of Tolkien's quirky changes of sayings - the actual proverbial saying goes "two's company, three's a crowd". But I also thought of it as a foreshadowing of the ending of the book at the Grey Havens; Gandalf says, "It will be better to ride back three together than one alone." Additionally, it reminds me of a passage in the Bible, Ecclesiates 4, that begins, "Two are better than one", goes on to elaborate about the situations in which it is good to have another person to help and ends "and a threefold cord is not quickly broken."
Right at the beginning is another of those lines that takes on a sinister meaning when I think of it in connection with the Ring; Gandalf says, "Of course you mustn't vanish!" Then there's the "there and back again" comparison, with Frodo being hesitant to leave the Shire because he thinks he won't be returning. Of course, we know that his journey will be a "there and back" trip, just going farther in both a literal and a spiritual sense than Bilbo did. This is the chapter that raised a question for me that could only be solved by beginning to write a story (which, alas, I have sadly neglected) - my fan fiction that answers the question, "Whatever happened to Folco Boffin?" He's never again mentioned, though he is here said to be one of the four closest friends. I must continue it soon... This chapter also repeats the poem that is most important to me, "The Road goes ever on". It has accompanied me on many journeys, and as I know it by heart, I have frequently written it in guest books of friends. I do, however, use Bilbo's version with "eager feet", not Frodo's "weary feet" - I love to travel! In Hammond and Scull's Reader's Companion, they suggest that the difference between the two hobbits and the reason for their alternate poem version is primarily caused by the burden of the Ring, which responsibility Frodo already feels. Bilbo left home all the lighter for having given that burden away. I also noticed the early version of the poem that Bilbo recites on the way to the Grey Havens at the end of the book - "Still round the corner". This version sounds curious, the later one poignant. The first part of the third stanza is sung by Pippin in the RotK movie - in Denethor's court. The closing part of the chapter, with Frodo's talk with Gildor, is full of quotable sentences! "The wide world is all about you..."; "Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards..." (always good for parody versions like the one with ketchup!); "Go not to the Elves..."; "Advice is a dangerous gift..."; and "Courage is found in unlikely places...", to name the most important lines. Oh, by the way, Hammond and Scull suggest that the line Frodo uses to call Sam away from the beer barrel at the beginning of this chapter could purposely be similar to that heard in an English pub at closing time! ![]() They also point out that information given by Tolkien in the song cycle The Road Goes Ever On tells us why Elves could be regularly travelling though this area of the Shire; they could be returning (since they are going eastwards, not westwards to the Havens) from the Towers, where the palantír was. Quote:
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' Last edited by Estelyn Telcontar; 01-27-2008 at 04:25 PM. |
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#60 | ||||
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
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![]() Or it was unintentional byproduct of Tolkien's subconscious ![]() Anyway, as for overall feeling of this chapter, I just glimpsed davem's post at the beginning on this thread where he said this chapter contains a transition from one world to another. I wholeheartedly disagree. Even the Elves and Gildor still belong to the Shire for me, even the Rider chasing the Hobbits, despite Frodo's debate with Gildor about that "this is not their own Shire". We are still in the, so to say, kindergarten-stage (with no negative meaning), it is a pleasant Shire and I always had the feeling that this could happen to me everyday during a walk - simply because this is our own Shire. In other words, one Black Rider during the day and a group of elves in the night is what is the thing closest to experience even in the most mundane circumstances, because the hobbits also experienced it in the most mundane circumstances.
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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#61 | ||
Sage & Onions
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Britain
Posts: 894
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Evenin' all,
Some specific, some more general thoughts here. First, Gandalf stayed at Bag End for two or three weeks. Did Gandalf and Frodo plan any more deeply than 'head for Rivendell'? And if not why on earth not? I guess maybe to avoid alerting the reader to what might transpire! Quote:
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On the Curious Fox, there was some concern that he broke the translator conceit, however maybe just possibly Gildor or one of his pals made some joking remark regarding the fox's thoughts later on? On Pippin's peremptory commands, I think he's extracting the michael here and Sam is too sleepy to see it, Frodo gets revenge by pulling Pippin's blankets off. As for 'Sam!, Time!' the traditional cry of the bartender on the dread toll of the bell is 'Time gentlemen please, time at the bar, haven't you got homes to go to?' which is doubly appropriate here!
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Rumil of Coedhirion Last edited by Rumil; 02-23-2008 at 05:17 PM. |
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#62 |
Stormdancer of Doom
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I was struck by the elves' laughter. "There came a sound like mingled song and laughter." And, " Come! Come! Now is the time for laughter and merriment!"
I am far too serious.
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...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve. |
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#63 | |
Laconic Loreman
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In "A Short Rest" one might view the Rivendell Elves' song on the tired dwarven travellers bordering on insulting. Although the tone reads in more of a jesting manner. Gildor's barbs about hobbits being dull company, might come off insulting, but Frodo retorts back about you shouldn't go to Elves for advice because they will say both "Yes and No." This probably doesn't fit with the later manner of the Elves, but the whole story gets more serious as the journey progresses; Elven fate of departing Middle-earth and their gloomy battle to "fight the long defeat," as Galadriel puts it.
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Fenris Penguin
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#64 |
Shady She-Penguin
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: In a far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 8,217
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And the project continues! I feel like I should say at this point that Boro or anyone else out there willing to discuss the chapters can feel free to go on even if Legate and I are not posing anything yet - we'll catch up. But whenever I'm not to busy, I think I'll roughly aim to read a chapter a day, that's a nice pace.
So, Three Is Company. It's a nice chapter, further introducing our heroes, introducing the antagonists Black Riders that will shadow our heroes for several chapters to come, and it's of course also the beginning of a journey. A very important chapter then. It also has one of my favourite dialogues - that between Frodo and Gildor. On this reread, however, there was hardly anything "new" I paid attention to - the chapter was to me as it ever was, no great moments of insight here. Do you guys feel the same? Like, sometimes when you reread LotR you discover hidden gems and catch great undercurrents and themes in between the lines, and sometimes the book just is. Maybe you know every paragraph and sentence, or maybe there are cool details and implicatons but you've already noticed them a thousand times, so you end up somehow just flying through the chapter, enjoying it but not very profoundly? That's what happened to me today. Some notes, however - When I was a kid, I always felt a bit bummed out that Merry is not part of the company because he was one of my favourites. As a teenager, I wondered why Tolkien left him out of this pivotal introduction of the hobbits. But of course, there's a reason why Merry - unlike Pippin - is already introduced in A Long-Expected Party, and then later he has a prominent role in A Conspiracy Unmasked. Now I also appreciated the dynamics of the Frodo - Pippin - Sam trio, and the space each of them gets in this combo. I feel like I only became aware of the class distinctions in Tolkien's works a couple of years ago, and the relationship between Pippin and Sam is very interesting in that light. Pippin talks to Sam as to a servant - "is my bath ready?" - but there seems to be nothing strange about them doing chores together and in practice they're very equal. I also notice Pippin affectionately mocks Sam but Sam never returns the treatment. Subtle class division or a question of personality? Who knows. I can't help to think that Pippin - and later also Merry's - attitude towards Sam is a little patronizing. Another thing I thought of were the Elves. They throw really weird parties. First they just sit around, then when their favourite stars appear starts singing and eating and drinking that goes on long into the night. I wonder if they always sleep in and travel late because of that. Like, I'm not complaining. Walking and looking at the stars and singing and good food sounds excellent to me but I somehow never considered High Elves to be so... laid-back? chill? in their activities.
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Like the stars chase the sun, over the glowing hill I will conquer Blood is running deep, some things never sleep Double Fenris
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#65 | |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits
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And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision. |
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#66 | ||
Wight of the Old Forest
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Unattended on the railway station, in the litter at the dancehall
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Just commenting, I can't commit to a full reread right now, but I may add my two farthings every now and then. (And I just almost wrote 'fartings'; blame narfforc and his book.)
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Singing and good food is also what we see Elrond's people in Rivendell spending a good part of their time on when they're not busy sitting in council about the fate of Middle-earth. Maybe there comes a time when you've studied and discussed all the ancient lore there is ever so often and it just gets boring (especially considering you may have written some of it yourself), but songs and good food just never get old.
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Und aus dem Erebos kamen viele seelen herauf der abgeschiedenen toten.- Homer, Odyssey, Canto XI |
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#67 | |||
Shady She-Penguin
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: In a far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 8,217
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Like the stars chase the sun, over the glowing hill I will conquer Blood is running deep, some things never sleep Double Fenris
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#68 |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,506
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In this chapter, I really like sketching out of the relationship between the hobbits in question (including all the interesting "class dynamics" and other things Lommy mentioned - I really think in Sam's case, it's partly a question of personality, but that personality had been a little influenced by his status). And this time, I really enjoyed the first moment the Nazgul appeared - in the name of all, it is Khamul, you know, it is just super-creepy and supercool that he is so close to Frodo. In fact, being quite a bit conscious about the timing and everything, Frodo just missed being caught, the Riders are only hours (in the case of meeting Gaffer, minutes) off. Talk about narrow escapes.
This also brings in my mind a horror-scenario we once discussed with Lommy, sometime ages ago: of course the first thought, when one starts to imagine "what ifs", is "what if the Riders arrived a few hours earlier" and found Frodo still in Bag End - helpless, obviously. But what we thought about was what if the Riders arrived only a bit later - for example the day after. Imagine. *knock knock* The new master of Bag End, Lotho Sackville-Baggins, opens the door. "Does Baggins live here?" "Y-yes, that is me..." It would make for a brilliant and terrifying horror movie, when the family after years and years of waiting finally inherits the house they always desired, only instead of a happy ending, they get this... Anyway: back to the merry hills of the Shire, what I actually love the most about this chapter are the descriptions of the landscape. They are all so vivid, so beautiful. One funny thing I noticed this time: I imagine the Shire landscape (the very same, specific places or scenes I have pictured in my mind many times over) differently when reading in different languages (obviously the first time I read LotR, it was in my native language, as well as many times after, but of course I have read it also in English, but I alternate between those a lot). Currently I am reading it in English, and it struck me that one specific scene - the first waking up when Frodo goes to look for water, or actually doesn't - is painted vividly red in my mind (the sunrise and mist Frodo sees), as opposed to when reading in Czech, I imagine it much more yellow and not as bloody red. The translation does not differ in any significant way, in fact, it is pretty much the same - but I guess it has to do with the sound of the words or maybe the syntax or something. A random observation. But anyway, yes, this is mostly about the landscapes (and "skyscapes", too - I love the part about stars rising when the Hobbits meet the Elves), and that is actually why I like this chapter a lot - I would probably rank it about my favourites. Hard to say how high, but high.
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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#69 | |
Laconic Loreman
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![]() ![]() In the Chapter 2 thread H-I mentions how the first 3 chapters of Book I parallel the first 3 chapters of Book II. The tone and general plot line are the same. Long Expected Party - Many Meetings, on the surface there is celebration and happiness, but underneath there is an unanswered question about the Ring. The Ring is in the background to Bilbo's party and then in Many Meetings when Frodo reunites with Bilbo. Shadow of the Past - Council of Elrond. I think these are the 2 longest chapters of the entire book. Both long exposition and dialogue where the ring is now "the One Ring." It becomes the main character in each chapter, as The Ring and what to do with it gets debated. Three is Company - The Ring Goes South. It's been decided what to do with the Ring and these are the actions taken with the Ring. The company was three, and then it's nine. I'm curious to see if the rest FOTR follows the same pattern when it comes the chapters getting paired up like the first three in each book. Now, Book I has 12 chapters and Book II has 10, so I don't think we'll get the same direct pairing. I have some vague ideas, but I'm just really curious to continue the reread with partnered chapters in mind. Does A Shortcut to Mushrooms follow the same pattern as A Journey in the Dark? A Conspiracy Unmasked to the Bridge of Khazad-dum? I guess we'll find out. ![]()
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#70 | |
shadow of a doubt
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Back on the streets
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For the duration of the book, Sam does not for a second step away from his subservient role. Mr Frodo on the other hand never orders him to do anything either as far as I remember. It's a very idealized Master and Servant relationship, one based on mutual love and respect but still a vertical and not horizontal one. Beth, Esty and others have some excellent points about these relationships earlier in thread by the way.
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"You can always come back, but you can't come back all the way" ~ Bob Dylan |
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#71 |
Pile O'Bones
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 18
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Last November I had the chance to go on a long hike through one of our National Forests in Mississippi. Two friends and I covered a distance of 42 miles over the course of 3 and a half days. While there were plenty of rolling hills, they were mostly wooded and there were no surprise meetings with a company of Elves to feed us a late dinner.
Throughout the course of our hike, I thought often about this chapter and the following one. Some of it is definitely because I was travelling with two other companions. Some of it was because of the pretty, green (though fading) evnironment. But mostly, I think it was because when you are travelling on foot, you have the chance to appreciate your environment and surroundings in a way that faster, mechanized modes of transportation rob you of entirely. You really get to know a landscape when you walk through it. There is an intimacy you just don't get through a car or train window. Walking is also a great way to remind ourselves how big the world actually is. Airplanes, cars, and trains have made us forget this fact. They fool us into not seeing the world around us. We think of the world as being composed of effectively empty space between our starting point and destination because it all passes by so quickly. Mechanized transportation is a wonderful thing in many ways, but it also decieves us, makes us think of the world on a different scale than the reality we are missing all around. To me, this chapter embodies this idea. In The Hobbit, we have no real concept of the Shire. We don't get much description of it at all actually. Bilbo lives in a village of some kind and all the place names are rather vague. Once the journey begins we are told, almost in passing, that at first Thorin's company travels through Hobbit lands. Otherwise, everything is glossed over until we get to the Trolls! (I understand why, it's a children's book after all). But in The Lord of the Rings, things are quite different. Here, Tolkien firmly establishes the Shire as a PLACE. There is an entire forward devoted largely to its history, geography and people. Essentially the entirety of the first four chapters are spent within its borders. While the Hobbits are walking through the Shire to Crickhollow, the reader is also going at a walking pace, in a literary sense. Here, we have the chance to explore the Shire as we get to know it through its people, some of its history, and through the land itself. That's what the early parts of Fellowship are about to me - getting to know the Hobbits and the land they come from. |
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#72 |
Dead Serious
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Rereading this old thread, not because I have anything that cropped up on my reread to say, though that is why I read it, but because I have something to say one the very old topic of Sam and Pippin and "sir."
Namely, two things: First, it gets mentioned in the thread that Sam is younger than Frodo (contra what we see in the movies) and has probably always known him as "Mr. Frodo," which is a combination of therefore of deferential age and deferential status. What *didn't* get mentioned is that Pippin is even younger still: he's only 29, not yet even come of age. Granted, I don't know if we can say that makes him as fool as a teenager, but he's definitely more adolescent than the other hobbits we see up close. I think this is relevant, not because it explains why Pippin gets "sir" and Sam doesn't--that is presumably adequately explained by Pippin being the only son and heir of the Took himself--but because it helps explain some of the cringiness of the interaction. And it *is* cringy, once you're listening for it. I don't personally think the cringiness lasts--maybe it goes as far as the House of Tom Bombadil? After that, though Sam certainly maintains a sense of what he would no doubt consider good hobbit decorum, Pippin (possibly being influenced by Merry as well) becomes rather more Frodo-esque. True, we don't see the same Frodo-Sam-Pippin trio close-up after they make it Crickhollow, but I think it's also true that the initial response of the Hobbits as they venture out into the wide world in all its wonder is to have a sort of flattened egalitarianism. Next to the Bombadils and Striders and Glorfindels--to say nothing of the Elronds or Galadriels beyond, the distinctions between the Hobbits seem minor and they naturally band together a little more. It's noted earlier in the thread that the "true" relationship of lords and thegns, masters and bondsmen is a theme of the book, but the direct relationship of this to Pippin wasn't quite sewn up, and I think it's important here: both Pippin and Merry end up declaring fealty to great lords, but it's noteworthy that Pippin gets the far more difficult master: Merry serving Théoden is almost as idyllic as Sam serving Frodo; Pippin serving Denethor is not.
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I prefer history, true or feigned.
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#73 | |
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,046
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Merry was eight years older, but seems to me as mature as Frodo himself. Certainly, he handles the preparations for the journey from the Shire pretty well, and performs solidly in the Old Forest, at least until the Willow incident. I think Pippin being placed in Minas Tirith, in the very eye of the storm, basically alone, forced him to grow up very quickly.
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Music alone proves the existence of God. |
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#74 |
Laconic Loreman
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Random, but 2 major thoughts on this chapter:
The amount of times in this chapter Frodo, Sam and Pippin rest underneath or inside trees. Or the amount of times the hobbits use trees for protection when avoiding the Black Rider(s). It's really setting me up for the "when trees go bad" chapter of the books. The amount of times Gandalf's disappearance, or Gandalf not leaving with Frodo is brought up. I'm thinking about the joke thread on Bombur's characterization in the Hobbit. It felt like every time Bombur got mentioned in the books it's with "fat." It's like "In case you didn't know, Bombur is fat." And this chapter it's "Hey did you hear? Gandalf is missing." I'm not saying that as it's a bad thing though! I quite like it, because it's not like we are unfamiliar with Gandalf's disappearing acts. He does it quite randomly in The Hobbit, but I think the purpose for these constant reminders in Three is Company that Gandalf is indeed, not there is to reinforce Gandalf's not being with Frodo at this time is different then the handful of times he disappeared from Thorin's company. Gandalf left Thorin's company, and they get into a sticky situation with trolls. Gandalf comes back in the nick of time to save them, and tells them he left to scout out their path ahead. He makes a quick exit to avoid being captured by goblins and comes back to save the dwarves. He leaves them before entering Mirkwood and tells the dwarves he'll meet them before entering the mountain and in this instance Gandalf is not there when he says he will be. So, we start to think alright something bad happened to Gandalf to not be there. It's not Gandalf's disappearing, coming and going, that is troubling, because we should be aware that's what Gandalf "the wizard" does. The reminders that Gandalf is not there is meant to make us concerned this is more like his leaving the dwarves at Mirkwood and not being there to meet them before entering Erebor. Something has prevented Gandalf from being where he said he would be and we are meant to be worried about his disappearance this time! This is hammered home towards the end of the chapter when Gildor says: "I do not like this news,...That Gandalf should be late, does not bode well." One thing for certain is when Gandalf is not there with our "green" adventurers, bad things happen. The question is, will Gandalf return in the nick of time to help our hobbits? And if not, who will? ![]()
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Fenris Penguin
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#75 | |
Dead Serious
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(Which, interestingly enough, actually doesn't really get any play in the movie--Gandalf is missing, but it's not something that is commented upon as the book comments, and the viewer of the movie knows where he went, the reader of the book is left with the same lack of knowledge as the Hobbits.)
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I prefer history, true or feigned.
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#76 | |
Pile O'Bones
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 18
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As it stands, we get to see the Shire through the eyes of the hobbit characters alone. We also see the Black Riders from their perspective and feel the sense of mystery and dread that they feel. We feel the sense of wonder of the serendipitous appearance of the elves in the nick of time. With Gandalf around, you don't get as much of that - he has all the answers! He knows what the Black Riders are and would likely be aware that they were very near to one of the elf roads that crossed the Shire. No mystery, no wonder, and no long farewell to the green, idyllic home that our primary heroes are leaving. Don't get me wrong - I love Gandalf as much as any LoTR fan. But I think these early chapters of the journey are better off without him. |
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