The Beornings

[Thalionmar]

Something puzzles me concerning the beornings.

In 'The Hobbit' I get the impression that Beorn is a solitary character with no living relations.

However in LOTR a whole race of Beornings is mentioned.

What I dont understand is how a whole race can appear in a period of 80 years. Could anyone help me concerning the origins of the beornings.

Where there other beorings in the hobbit that were not mentioned?

Any answers would be much appreciated. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ August 24, 2003: Message edited by: Thalionmar ]

[Thalionmar]

I would have used quotes in my original post but I dont have my books at hand.

However, something I can recall from memory to back up my point of Beorn being alone at the time of 'The Hobbit' is Beorns presence at the battle of 5 armies. If there was a whole race of beornings wouldnt Beorn have come with a reasonable force of allies?

[Firnantoonion]

it seems to me that there are more beornings (after all, there are more traces of bears at the door when Bilbo wakes up in the Hobbit) but that they all live solitary and see each other rarely, only on meetings wich are organized so to say..

therefore, I think that the Goblin attack was such a surprise that beorn had no time to call for more of his brethren, and keep in mind that the dwarves at that point know nothing about the beornings and Gandalf sees no need to explain more than just the things they have to know.

later on, in LotR the dwarves have become "neighbours" of the beornings and travel more through their land, and learn more of the beornings. I think the dwarves (and the reader [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]) learn just in these travels that there are more people of the kind of Beorn. (maybe even Gandalf didn't knew this in the hobbit)

[Noxomanus]

Speaking about Beorn and his kin,I wondered today wether he or them may have participated in the assault on Dol Guldur.They would make very powerful allies and fighters,probably wanted to get rid of the Necromancer and at least Beorn knew Radagast who probably was part of the attack as well.I also think Gandalf would have thought of including Beorn in the assault when he visited him with Bilbo and the Dwarves and saw the power he had.

[Voralphion]

I don't think the Beornings would have been much use in an attack on the necromancer. I always thought that the attack was mostly done by using magic to force him from his stronghold in Dol Guldor, and wasn't much of a physical attack using conventional armies.

[kharank]

I agree, the Beornings probably didnt help in the assault upon Dol Guldor - wasnt it said to be the White Council? Cant see any Beornings in the Council, but correct me if Im wrong!!

With respect to the people called the Beornings - no, i cant recall any others being mentioned in the Hobbit, either. Then again, are the 'Beornings' as a people all like Beorn, or does the name refer to men living in the area? Is Beorn a ruler of other men, or does he remain solitary?

[FingolfintheBold]

I always thought that Beornings was the name given to the men living around and in the shirts of mirkwood, of whom Beorn was later the leader. Perhaps some of them were his kin, but i doubt they had the same unusual talent.

[Finwe]

According to the Encyclopedia of Arda, the Beornings were:

The descendants of Beorn, who dwelt in the Vales of Anduin between Mirkwood and the Great River, and who for many generations retained their ancestor's ability to take the shape of a bear.

Just because Beorn was the only shape-shifter mentioned in the Hobbit doesn't mean that there weren't any others. It could be like saying there were no Dwarf women, because none were mentioned there (except for Dis, the mother of Fili and Kili, and the sister of Thorin, but she's an exception).

[The Saucepan Man]

The descendants of Beorn, who dwelt in the Vales of Anduin between Mirkwood and the Great River, and who for many generations retained their ancestor's ability to take the shape of a bear.

I think that the Encyclopedia must be wrong on this. As Thalionmar originally asked, how could one man give rise to a group sufficient to merit its own title within 80 years? It does not follow from the references to "Beornings" in LotR that they are necessarily his descendants. In fact, when Aragron speaks of them in reference to the Rohirrim, he says:

... and their kinship is rather with the Bardings of Dale, and with the Beornings of the Wood, among whom may still be seen many men tall and fair, as a re the Riders of Rohan.

This speaks of a tribe far older than just three or four generations. No, I doubt that the Beornings were all descendants of Beorn, just as the Bardings would not all have been descendants of Bard. I suspect rather that they were a pre-existing folk who took their name from the one who rose to be their leader.

Whether some, or even any, of them shared Beorn's shape-changing ability is questionable. The paw-prints that Firnantoonion refers to could have been caused by normal bears, with whom Beorn would naturally have had an affinity. And Beorn's talent is marked out as special. I think that Tolkien refers to him as being a sorceror of sorts in one of his Letters.

So, I would guess that "Beornings" is the name used at the time of the War of the Ring to refer to the Woodmen who lived in the Anduin valley and western Mirkwood and that their name is attributable to the one who came to be their leader, and who perhaps united them in an identifiable grouping.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

I totally agree with the fact that the Beornings are people led by Beorn. I mean, are all the Rohirrim literal sons of Eorl just because they are called Eorlingas (maybe Eorlingas means "people of Eorl, but I don't know...)?

These must be wandering groups of men, probably the non-Dunedain remnants of Arnor(just a theory! Don't mutilate the monitor with your looks!) or some people of the Vales of Anduin; some of the Eotheod who didn't go to Calenardhon.

[Maéglin]

Or maybe Beorn was the name given to the leader of the Beornings of every generation. So the Beorn in the Hobbit could have been... (this is just an example) the 25th 'Beorn' in the line of their race. I seriously think that Beorn was just another character in The Hobbit and Tolkien in order to please avid readers and fans, had to come up with a suitable conclusion to the 'Beorn saga.' in the Lord of the Rings. Although of course, Tolkien's answers do tend to give rise to even more questions. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Perhaps Beorn was just a very good playa :P

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

Say after the Battle of Five Armies Beorn settled down with a forest woman, and had ten or so kids (in the course of the next ten years). Twenty years after his last son, they've grown up, ranging from 20 to 30 years of age. They have kids. 20 to 30 years later (we've approached seventy years after the Hobbit), their kids are old enough to fight in the War of the Ring. We now have 10 first generation Beornings (obviously the eldest being Grimbeorn the Old), and 100 grandchildren to Beorn. That's obviously an entire 'race' of Beornings, at least that's a lot of men. Also, with the forestmen living nearby, it's not reasonable to think that in the dangerous times, they rallied under the greatest leader in the area-Grimbeorn. Therefore, beside the true 'Beornings' there were probably upwards around 2,000 or more good fighting men in the region between Mirkwood and Anduin. Not to mention their children and wives, and elders. So yes, in 80 years it's possible that not only there are quite a few Beornings, but enough people following them to make a decent army.

I've theorized before that Radagast the Brown probably served a role much like Gandalf did for the characters of the Lord of the Rings, and acted as the counselor and mover of the Beornings, and the men of Dale and dwarves of Erebor, and also the Elves of Mirkwood.

So they had some numbers and organization, I assume. 80 years is a long time, even for long-lived offspring of a skin-changing sorceror, but if he did have more than one son, it wouldn't be very good for the forces of Dol Goldur to have ten or so were-bears charging them down with a hoard of angry militant forestment behind them now would it?

[tinewelt]

Just because Beorn was the only shape-shifter mentioned in the Hobbit doesn't mean that there weren't any others.

It might be a possibility that there were other shape -changers.

I have been picking out bear-tracks, there must have been a regular bears' meeting outside here last night. I son saw that Beorn could not have made them all: there were far too many of them, and they were of various sizes too. I should say there were little bears, large bears, ordinary bears, and gigantic big bears, al dancing outside from dark to nearly dawn. They came for almost every direction, except from the west over the river, from the mountain

This does not directly refer to other shape-changers, but it does not directly rule them out either. It is a possibility that there were others of this type, and they were just not mentioned as beorn was, but still existed. (Kind of like the Dark elves who knew nothing of the Valar, although they were mentioned by tolkien) The elves from valinor knew nothing of them,(except for a few of the wise maybe) and vise versa. IT could also be true that people did not know that other shape-changers existed, because they had never seen any of the rest. (besides Beorn)

[The Saucepan Man]

We now have 10 first generation Beornings (obviously the eldest being Grimbeorn the Old), and 100 grandchildren to Beorn. That's obviously an entire 'race' of Beornings, at least that's a lot of men.

Keeper, for Beorn to have 10 children, and then for each of them to have 10 children themselves (with none dying in childhood) would be quite an impressive feat. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] But, then again, who's to say that he did not have 20 children, and 200 grandchildren? The exact number of Beorn's offspring is pure speculation, save that we know that he had at least one child, Grimbeorn. In any event, I think it unlikely that his descendants would have been of sufficent number to count as a "race" in the way that Aragorn refers to the Beornings.

But, essentially, we are in agreement. The Beornings would have comprised the descendants of Beorn, together with the woodmen of the area gathered together under his, and later his son's, leadership.

Possibly they would have included other shape-changers unrelated (save distantly) to Beorn's family. But the only evidence of this is the presence of the paw-prints outside Beorn's house, which could have been left by regular bears. So, I remain doubtful on this.

Edited because I attributed the quote to Eomer despite getting it right first time round. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[ September 30, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

But Radagast? What about him being a mover of deeds? I read in UT that only Gandalf achieved his mission. Wouldn't the book give Radagast some credit if he did move the Beornings to action?

I know that Beorn hated orcs, and evil things in their surroundings. His descendant would have inherited his hatred, so they would have acted out of their own accord.

(Disclaimer: I don't hate Radagast. I just think he couldn't have done this. But then again, maybe I'm wrong [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] )

[Rumil]

I was interested by Saucepan man's quote from Aragorn, who refers to the 'Beornings of the Wood'. Does this mean that the Beornings are in fact the Woodmen? The Woodmen were the people living on the western edge of Mirkwood who were troubled by goblin attacks and occasionally took potshots at eagles, as is related in The Hobbit.

I remember reading one of the old MERP RPG supplements where they have Beorn as a sort of spiritual leader of the Beornings who lives in isolation from the rest of the people, a reasonable speculation I'd guess.

By the way their leader at the time of the War of the Ring was called Grimbeorn, who was a descendant of Beorn.

[Orophin]

I think that this might be one of Tolkien's biggest over sights. A gap in the story if you will. It is said in the lord of the rings that a race of men called the Boerning keep the area arounf the carrock safe for travelers and trading to come through and without them orcs would control the areas. But as Rumil has stated Beorn lives by himself in the Hobbit and know relatives are mentioned. THat does not mean that there arn't any it just means that we do not know of any. Maybe a race was created in 80 years and there just are not that many of them. Maybe they are a new race that is expanding and growing larger and that is why many people do not know that much about them. That's what I believe to be the most reasonable explanatio of the Beornings situation.

[Lobelia]

I think part of the problem here is that Tolkien, bless his heart, keeps forgetting that you need women as well as men to make descendants. He can't help it! Remember his original list of seven (male) Dwarves - "the fathers of the fathers" put to sleep? Later, of course, he must have had this pointed out to him and added a mate for each (except Durin, who then inexplicably became an ancestor too). All those "fathers of the fathers of ..." without any mothers. So, somehow, that old bachelor were-bear Beorn, who seems to need only the company of his pets, became the ancestor of a sturdy "race" of Men. That's Tolkien for you. I just suspend disbelief and remember Tolkien and his boys' club at Oxford. (g)

[Voralphion]

(except Durin, who then inexplicably became an ancestor too

Durin must have married one of the daughters of one of the other seven dwarf fathers, (he did live a very long time, much longer than other dwarves), by that he was able to have descendents.