The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > Novices and Newcomers
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-10-2015, 10:41 AM   #1
Pitchwife
Wight of the Old Forest
 
Pitchwife's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Unattended on the railway station, in the litter at the dancehall
Posts: 3,355
Pitchwife is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Pitchwife is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Pitchwife is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Pitchwife is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Pitchwife is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
Of Wizards and Time-Lords

As I remember well from our unforgettable Sound of Middle Earth skype sessions, not a few Downers are also avid fans of Doctor Who, a cultural phenomenon whose considerable charm unfortunately eluded me back then. During my absence from the Downs, however, I Saw the Light (in the form of binge-watching the 11th Doctor's first series on a TV marathon) and have become utterly addicted to the Doctor's adventures.

Imagine my delight when, surveying what had happened in the meantime after my return, I discovered a thread titled "The 12th doctor" in the Barrow Downs subforum - and my disappointment at finding it closed for being off topic with regards to Tolkien. I have therefore taken it upon myself to remedy this situation and create a thread for discussing themes and motives occurring in both Tolkien's works and DW, as well as any possible influence of the former on the latter.

This is not for discussing whether Classic Who is better than Nu Who or vice versa, or who was the best Doctor, or your preference for this companion or that one. This is strictly for comparing Who to Tolkien.

A few ideas to start it off:
  • The isolationist non-interference policy of the Time Lords in Classic Who, a race possessing nearly god-like powers which they refuse to use for the benefit of other races, reminds me of the fainéance (Tolkien's word) of the Valar with regard to Morgoth's activities in Middle-earth in the First Age; which would make the Doctor, in his desire to mingle and help, something like a self-appointed Istar.
  • Considering the last part of what I just said, could the Time Lords giving the Doctor a new cycle of regenerations just as he is about to sacrifice himself in defense of the people of Trenzalore in The Time of the Doctor be an echo of Eru endorsing Gandalf's self-sacrifice in Moria by resurrecting him as Gandalf the White?
  • Gandalf's eyebrows and Peter Capaldi's eyebrows. Need I say more?
Discuss!
__________________
Und aus dem Erebos kamen viele seelen herauf der abgeschiedenen toten.- Homer, Odyssey, Canto XI
Pitchwife is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2015, 08:09 PM   #2
Zigūr
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Zigūr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 785
Zigūr is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Zigūr is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
One thing which comes immediately to mind is the "Melkur", the evil creature in penultimate Tom Baker serial "The Keeper of Traken" which is trying to wrest control of the Source of Traken away from its Keeper. The BBC Classic Doctor Who page for the serial goes so far as to list The Silmarillion as an influence. While I don't think this can be stated definitively, "The Keeper of Traken" was produced in 1981, only four years after The Silmarillion was published. The serial's writer, Johnny Byrne, was an established science-fiction writer who had worked on, for example, Space: 1999, so it's possible a much-anticipated work of "fantasy" like The Silmarillion might have been on his radar.

Another substantial thematic similarity between the works of Professor Tolkien and Doctor Who might include the representation of the evil of tyranny. It doesn't happen so much in the new series because I think they don't have as much time for worldbuilding, but in the Classic Series the Doctor used to overthrow dictatorships all the time, which bears similarities I would argue to the plot of The Lord of the Rings in broad strokes.

Both texts also consider nonviolence: war is almost never really the answer in Professor Tolkien's work, and while it's sometimes mandatory it never results in the best solution. In Doctor Who the Doctor is primarily a nonviolent character, although not all the time, who usually tries to resolve the plot through intelligence rather than brute force. This might be compared again to the plot of The Lord of the Rings: the aim is not to defeat evil with weapons but rather by destroying a weapon (the Ring).

Both texts value learning. Also, the protagonists are often eccentric: Bilbo and Frodo and the Doctor are all eccentrics who are discontented at one point or another with the limiting nature of their own societies. Both also deal with the nature of time. The Elves probably wouldn't object to a TARDIS until they realised that, like with the Rings, ultimately things still change. Good typically triumphs over evil, but only after suffering and hardship. Both texts are of a "family" nature, I would argue - they can be appreciated at different levels by both children and adults.

I could go on, but I'll be going forever if I don't stop now. Doctor Who has 252 televised stories so far and Professor Tolkien's corpus of work is enormous so one could find similarities all day (one might consider how both explore colonialism/imperialism and channel the zeitgeist of their respective eras).
__________________
"Since the evening of that day we have journeyed from the shadow of Tol Brandir."
"On foot?" cried Éomer.
Zigūr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2015, 02:45 AM   #3
Hookbill the Goomba
Alive without breath
 
Hookbill the Goomba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: On A Cold Wind To Valhalla
Posts: 6,153
Hookbill the Goomba is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Hookbill the Goomba is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Hookbill the Goomba is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Hookbill the Goomba is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
Pipe This is my jam

I'm actually working on a paper to present at Oxonmoot on this very subject, but I have left it on my external harddrive at home (currently on holiday in Finland).

The Melkur is something I discussed in the paper, but there are lots and lots of parallels, intentional and otherwise. Trying to remember some of them off the top of my head but I may forget some as there were a lot.

One of the main things I focussed on was the Doctor as "Space Gandalf", which is what he calls himself in one of the mini-episodes from series 7. It's a very interesting parallel as they are both wise beyond human capabilities, a little eccentric and silly at times, and possess abilities that seem magical. They also have the whole 'coming-back-from-the-dead' thing. Not just in the Doctor's general ability to regenerate, but one might also make a comparison between Gandalf's restoration and the Doctor receiving a new cycle from the Time Lords on the grounds that his job is not yet done.
A criticism the Doctor receives often from his own people is that he seems oddly interested in the planet Earth and its humans. They regard this as ridiculous, a stupid thing for such a high and mighty Time Lord to be getting involved with. I can see this paralleled in Gandalf's affinity for Hobbits and pipe weed, etc. which Saruman criticises him for.
They act as advisors to their friends, obstencillay there to simply aid and guide people, though they often go beyond this remit. The Time Lords set themselves up as passive, sworn only to watch and never interfere, much like the Valar, but they do occasionally meddle by sending envoys. For the Time Lords this often comes in the form of the Celestial Intervention Agency (CIA), who will in tern snatch the Doctor up for covert missions. They eventually exiled the Doctor to earth as punishment for his meddling, accepting that there was evil in the universe and he had a part to play in combating it. The Valar, similarly, send their envoys in the form of the Istari, rather than interfering directly.

The relationship between Gandalf and Saruman has some mirrors with the Doctor and the Master. The Master was a Time Lord who was once the Doctor's closest friend (some have suggested former lover, brother, or just very close friend, it is left ambiguous). The Master tends to be regarded as slightly cleverer and the Doctor even sometimes asks for his help. They were once friends and then something happened that made them enemies. Now the Master has a mind of metal and a desire for conquest, to be the master of other wills.
He also possesses much better technology than the Doctor. A running joke has always been that the Doctor's rackety old Type-40 TARDIS is a piece of junk compared to the Master's Type-90 (which is usually just the Doctor's TARDIS set painted black ). While the Master relies on his superior apparatus, the Doctor is something of a wanderer, a vagabond, and - in his Second incarnation especially - a cosmic hobo. Much like Gandalf and how he is viewed, the Doctor is the underdog all too often when compared to his rival. The Master, like Saruman, is able to raise armies, build bigger engines of war, and does it all from a more secure seat of power.

Coming back to the Doctor as a wanderer, one who goes from place to place, helping out where he can. This seems very much like Gandalf. He never stops, he never stays, he never waits to be thanked, he just fights the good fight and moves on. He is offered kingships and leadership roles, and never takes them. The Doctor is offered the position of Lord President of the High Council of Time Lords, but runs away from such responsibilities. (Though he is still technically President Elect and will use the title when he needs to). Gandalf could have taken the keys to Orthank, could have taken the rods of the Five Wizards, and the crowns of seven kings, but he choses not to. He is no king and has no desire to be so. He even turns down the power of the Ring itself.

There are other little bits and pieces across the realms of time and space. The First Doctor has a very significant Ring, which is precious to him. The Seventh Doctor was played by Sylvester McCoy, who also played Radagast. And others I am forgetting right now!
__________________
I think that if you want facts, then The Downer Newspaper is probably the place to go. I know! I read it once.
THE PHANTOM AND ALIEN: The Legend of the Golden Bus Ticket...
Hookbill the Goomba is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2015, 06:28 AM   #4
Formendacil
Dead Serious
 
Formendacil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Perched on Thangorodrim's towers.
Posts: 3,346
Formendacil is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Formendacil is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Formendacil is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Formendacil is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
Send a message via AIM to Formendacil Send a message via MSN to Formendacil
I am no master of Whovian lore (not even of Trenzalore :-p ), but another parallel in the "Doctor as Space-Gandalf" vein occurs to me: Gandalf, like the doctor, likes to take mortal companions with him. We know from the beginning of The Hobbit that Bilbo is by no means the first Hobbit to go off with Gandalf--and even if Gandalf has a preference for British--I mean, Hobbits--he also has companions now and again from outside that one, oddly-chosen, place--Aragorn being the example that comes to mind.
__________________
I prefer history, true or feigned.
Formendacil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2015, 07:11 AM   #5
Zigūr
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Zigūr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 785
Zigūr is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Zigūr is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hookbill the Goomba View Post
The Melkur is something I discussed in the paper, but there are lots and lots of parallels, intentional and otherwise.
A couple of other things came to mind which you may have noticed. Firstly Traken is a very idyllic location in which evil things derive from outside. Such was the nature of Eä also:
the foundations of this world are good, and it turns by nature to good, healing itself from within by the power that was set there in its making; and evil in Arda would fail and pass away if it were not renewed from without: that is: that comes from wills and being that are other than Arda itself. [Morgoth's Ring]
The parallels between "The Keeper of Traken" and Tolkien haven't escaped those producing Doctor Who themselves it would seem. I don't know how people consider the Big Finish audios (like the show itself they are of extremely variable quality) but one good quality Peter Davison instalment from 2007, "Circular Time," cements this link. In episode 3, "Autumn," the Doctor and his companion Nyssa of Traken are holidaying on Earth in what appears to be the late 20th or early 21st century. While the Doctor is playing cricket, Nyssa sets about writing a novel about Traken (note that Nyssa is one of the last Trakenites: the Traken Union was destroyed by the Entropy Wave unleashed by the Master in "Logopolis," the serial following "The Keeper of Traken"). She describes her novel to a young human man, Andrew, who asks her (if I recall correctly) if it is "like The Lord of the Rings." Nyssa, of course, is an alien, and doesn't understand what he means.

That brings up another point: Doctor Who has a long history of using various "humanoid aliens" who are superficially identical to humans. In the Classic Series the Doctor had multiple alien companions of this kind (Romana, Nyssa, Adric and Turlough) in addition to his original companion, his granddaughter Susan. Despite their typically superior scientific knowledge these characters tended to be just as foibled as any 20th Century human. This I think evokes the argument in Professor Tolkien's works that even "higher beings" like Elves and the Ainur have "many degrees of error and failing" for such is the nature of life and existence. Even were we to become like them, we would not escape it.
__________________
"Since the evening of that day we have journeyed from the shadow of Tol Brandir."
"On foot?" cried Éomer.

Last edited by Zigūr; 05-12-2015 at 07:45 AM.
Zigūr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2015, 03:36 PM   #6
Pitchwife
Wight of the Old Forest
 
Pitchwife's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Unattended on the railway station, in the litter at the dancehall
Posts: 3,355
Pitchwife is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Pitchwife is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Pitchwife is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Pitchwife is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Pitchwife is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
Thanks for your interesting observations, everybody! Obviously there are way more parallels than I was thinking of (although the Doctor and the Master as Gandalf and Saruman had occurred to me). Got to admit that while I've seen most of Nu Who my knowledge of Classic Who is more than sketchy - I have Beginnings (the first three episodes of William Hartnell) and Revisitations (select episodes of Troughton, Pertwee, Tom Baker and Davison + the 1996 movie) and have of course done some online research, but I was quite unaware of the existence of the Melkur or the Celestial Intervention Agency. Thanks again for enlightening me!

One more thing that has come to my mind beyond the Doctor as "Space Gandalf" concerns the two-part finale of the most recent series (Dark Water / Death in Heaven). It begins with the death of Danny Pink, lover of the 12th Doctor's companion, Clara Oswald - who subsequently, with the Doctor's help, goes on a quest to find Danny in the afterlife (aka the Nethersphere) and, if it can be done in any way, bring him back. Doesn't this sound a lot like Beren and Lśthien? Unlike Lśthien, Clara doesn't die herself, but in her telephone call with Danny's uploaded mind she makes it clear that she'd be willing to, if that's what it takes to be with him. However, both that part of the Lay of Leithian and the Who episodes are also gender-reversed reworkings of the myth of Orpheus and Eurydice, which would explain the parallels without any direct influence.

(By the way, Hookbill, unless a miracle happens I won't be able to attend Oxonmoot, but I would be very interested in that paper. )
__________________
Und aus dem Erebos kamen viele seelen herauf der abgeschiedenen toten.- Homer, Odyssey, Canto XI
Pitchwife is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2015, 09:56 AM   #7
Lalwendė
A Mere Boggart
 
Lalwendė's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,814
Lalwendė is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Lalwendė is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Something to think about: Davros. If Gandalf is analgous with the Doctor, and Saruman with the Master, is Davros more Sauron or Melkor?
__________________
Gordon's alive!
Lalwendė is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2016, 06:12 PM   #8
Galadriel55
Blossom of Dwimordene
 
Galadriel55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,299
Galadriel55 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Galadriel55 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Galadriel55 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Galadriel55 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
Linking through meta

As I was mourning the passing of the Tenth Doctor, I attended a meeting about language and identity, and it turned out that the presenter was a Whovian and had quite a few examples of dialect perception from the show. I chatted with her for a bit afterwards, it was really cool - you don't often meet a person who's fascinated by two of the same things as you are. We talked about lots of planets that have a north, and about Judoon platoons upon the Moon, but here's something she told me that I never thought about before. She was discussing how different dialects are subconsciously associated with a certain group of people, and based on relationships with that group the language variation is perceived differently (fancy, formal, low-class, differences in race, class, location, etc). For instance, British accents as a whole are thought of as "cool", classy, formal, etc on this side of the pond. For instance, we hear the Ninth Doctor and Rose Tyler talk, and we subconsciously think they are cool just because of the way they speak (all true based on personal experience). However, apparently England English middle class people tend to look down on the accents that these characters speak - the Doctor sounds like he's from the North, which I'm assuming is subconsciously "uncool", and Rose sounds lower class. It would be really cool if someone from thereabout could actually confirm the influence of their accents, but at least this is supposed to be the theory.

I realized that Doctor Who probably contains a lot more "British" things - things you wouldn't really get unless you were familiar with that culture. In a way also, I think the writers/directors/producers may be imposing certain cultural aspects or preferences onto the show. Perhaps it is because of their main audience, and because the whole thing is based in the UK, but potentially because people automatically impose their own views or knowledge or feelings on their creations, to an extent.

The same is true for Tolkien, in many cases. LOTR is "based" from the Shire - the Shire is home, it's the normal, and it's the place that you relate to most naturally as home. However, in a way, it's Tolkien's home, but not necessarily the home of all the readers. There are some things that may be universal, like Frodo's desire to save the world for the sake of the Shire, but some details are very culture-specific. Specifically, when Sam keeps reminiscing about the Shire during the trek to Mordor, he brings up a lot of details of what home means to him. These details are part of what Tolkien probably felt meant home to him, or to people like him, but they might not be intuitive for all people. Easiest example is fish and chips. Many people can probably relate channeling nostalgia through food or smell, but not everyone would pick fish and chips as the dish. They would still get the general idea, but some poignancy of the image is probably lost.

To a large extent, TH and LOTR are shaped around the perceptions of the hobbits traveling in foreign lands. We see the world through a hobbit filter. That filter most closely matches to Tolkien's own view, and people whose cultures overlap his the most probably get the best "image". We see Doctor Who through the eyes of the companions, which are almost all British, and I feel like I'm missing quite a few details looking at it from their cultural filter (the whole accent thing being one of them).

This is true for any work - everything has a culture associated with it that doesn't always match the culture of the audience. I'm reading War and Peace, I'm almost finished, and I'm still not used to the ideas of fashion and taste (my friend was most disturbed by the woman with the beautiful mustache, but the thing I have most trouble accepting is the plump limp hands that apparently bespeak firm character and authority). But that's more like a complete immersion into a different place/time, while LOTR and New Who appear to be more culture filters: the ideas are universal, but some tiny little details are almost like inside jokes. It's not a bad thing, but it's a thing. It's actually kind of cool. And given how many parallels people draw between the legendarium and Tolkien's own experiences and culture, I think it's a legit point of comparison with Doctor Who.
__________________
You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera
Galadriel55 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2016, 08:37 PM   #9
Zigūr
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Zigūr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 785
Zigūr is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Zigūr is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
However, apparently England English middle class people tend to look down on the accents that these characters speak - the Doctor sounds like he's from the North, which I'm assuming is subconsciously "uncool", and Rose sounds lower class. It would be really cool if someone from thereabout could actually confirm the influence of their accents, but at least this is supposed to be the theory.
Interestingly, I was going over the first chapter of Book Five of The Lord of the Rings the other day and it's worth noting how often the Men of Gondor point out that Pippin speaks Westron with a different accent to them, something not always remarked upon elsewhere in the text. Beregond observes that "strange accents do not mar fair speech". Linguistic diversity is obviously important to Professor Tolkien, and here it seems to also extend to accent as well.

It's worth noting that in Classic Doctor Who, the first to sixth Doctors all spoke "BBC English", which is to say that they spoke with the "Received Pronunciation" accent which BBC Newsreaders and the like also used. Part of the point of this was because BBC programming was often aired all over the world, and a clear and precise accent was intended to be easier for a variety of language backgrounds to understand. Within the show, it was not until Fourth Doctor serial "The Masque of Mandragora" that an attempt was made to explain why the Doctor and his companions can understand all languages: "It's a Time Lord gift I allow you to share." The New Series later changed this to the TARDIS translating everything. At other times the Doctor was shown to not do this; the Third Doctor speaks mainland Chinese to a Chinese government representative in "The Mind of Evil", for instance, and it is untranslated for the audience.

Obviously it's a convenience, but one aspect of Doctor Who's general celebration of exploration and thus difference and diversity which might be a little limited is its exploration of language, which has not always received that much attention. The New Series has, I think, explored this a little more than Classic did. Professor Tolkien, by contrast, loved diversity of language and different languages, and this is reflected in his fiction. At the same time, however, he also has the convenience of a "Common Speech" in his writing, be it Sindarin in the First Age or Westron in the Third, which allows for convenience in communication. In that sense, perhaps both explore the role of language in the creation of the Secondary World, although it might be said that Professor Tolkien celebrates it a little more.
__________________
"Since the evening of that day we have journeyed from the shadow of Tol Brandir."
"On foot?" cried Éomer.
Zigūr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2016, 03:44 PM   #10
Galadriel55
Blossom of Dwimordene
 
Galadriel55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,299
Galadriel55 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Galadriel55 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Galadriel55 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Galadriel55 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
Just binge-watched two series of the 11th Doctor in a couple days at the expense of real life... I can see what you mean about the whole warrior thing now. And... basically, I agree with you. However, some elements of that development have a bit of a Lathspell ring - a man who is blamed for a lot of trouble happening when really he just coincides with the trouble because he's trying to stop it. And as the audience, you know you can trust him and you know that he's helping, and you want to convince the other characters to listen to him too. But you also have Wormtongues running around spreading mistrust among people and blaming the man for the trouble. It's not his fault, Grimas! Be thankful that he averts what trouble he does!

On an unrelated note, is it me, or is New Who just trying to give a nod to as many other fandoms as possible? Not that I mind, but they do seem to love Star Trek. Still waiting for a Star Wars one though.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zigūr View Post
In that sense, perhaps both explore the role of language in the creation of the Secondary World, although it might be said that Professor Tolkien celebrates it a little more.
And you know, I was thinking about that, and as someone who loves languages I feel somewhat cheated that everything sounds the same in the Whovian world. There are snippets of other languages here and there (Judoon is most prominent), but for the most part everything is just plain. I know that it's a show, and therefore has to be in English, but one thing I liked about LOTR was the description of how other languages sound to other people - like when hobbits hear Elvish, or when Legolas describes Rohirric. In Who, you don't even get a description of the feel of the languages. But there was a nice little bit of wordplay with names in the last few episodes. I had a feeling there was something up with this person's name - I know companions have short, resounding, catchy names, but this one was a bit over the top. Loved that part. Loved the revelation, and the name riddle.
__________________
You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera

Last edited by Galadriel55; 03-26-2016 at 03:55 PM.
Galadriel55 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2016, 09:07 AM   #11
Nerwen
Wisest of the Noldor
 
Nerwen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: ˙˙˙ssɐןƃ ƃuıʞooן ǝɥʇ ɥƃnoɹɥʇ
Posts: 6,701
Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
Send a message via Skype™ to Nerwen
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
And you know, I was thinking about that, and as someone who loves languages I feel somewhat cheated that everything sounds the same in the Whovian world. There are snippets of other languages here and there (Judoon is most prominent), but for the most part everything is just plain. I know that it's a show, and therefore has to be in English, but one thing I liked about LOTR was the description of how other languages sound to other people - like when hobbits hear Elvish, or when Legolas describes Rohirric. In Who, you don't even get a description of the feel of the languages.
There's no way to do that in television (or film) that I can think of, though.
__________________
"Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo.
Nerwen is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:33 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.