The Corruption of Frodo

I don't know if this has been discussed at another time in the forums, but I have a question.

I understand totally what Gandalf was saying when he told Frodo in Moria that he was meant to have the Ring, but in the beginning, when Gandalf was in the Shire, he knew that the Ring had something to do when Bilbo got mad at Gandalf for telling him to leave the Ring behind, thus he knew that the Ring, in Frodo's hands would eventually corrupt Frodo as well. Why did he want to put Frodo through that?

Berserk

[symestreem]

Welcome to the Downs, Berserker.

I think you're thinking of the movie version of things, but your question is still answerable. What choice did Gandalf have? He knew that someone had to destroy the ring, and to get Frodo to give it up at this point would be very hard. Also, since Bilbo found it, it is sort of fitting that Bilbo's heir destroy it.

[Boromir88]

symestreem brings up the partial answer, that what other choice did Gandalf really have? He had to have someone go and destroy it. The other part I think is it would have been proven ill if Gandalf had took the ring. All the ring can do in the hands of a hobbit is make that hobbit turn invisible, prolongue life, and if they knew how to control Sauron's armies. Gandalf with the ring would be the next Sauron, end of story. The more powerful you are the quicker you fall to the ring because you seek power. Also, the ring is as potent as its bearer. It's a bigger threat if Gandalf has the ring then if Frodo does.

[Lyta_Underhill]

he knew that the Ring, in Frodo's hands would eventually corrupt Frodo as well. Why did he want to put Frodo through that?

I think the question here is whether the Ring is better off with Bilbo, as it always has been, or with Frodo, who has no experience with it. There was a discussion some time ago (loooong time ago as I recall) that an understanding existed that eventually, the Ring would be a point of contention and the cause of an ultimate rift between Bilbo and Frodo if Bilbo continued with the Ring at Bag End. And if Bilbo took the Ring with him on his journey, it would put Bilbo in great danger. Thus, the only answer is to part Bilbo and the Ring and for Bilbo to be parted from Frodo. And, at that time, it is either Frodo or Gandalf who would end up with the Ring. Tolkien himself laid out a frightening tableau of what would happen if Gandalf had taken the Ring, so the only one left is our unassuming Mr. Frodo Baggins.

I can't see that Gandalf had no hope at all, or that he purposefully laid suffering upon Frodo by being the go-between in its bequeathing from Bilbo to Frodo. It was the only logical choice. If Gandalf had not been there to mediate, Bilbo might have taken the Ring on the Road and suffered pursuit and danger as Frodo later did (all the while being more firmly under the Ring's power than Frodo was at the outset of his quest). Alternately, Bilbo might have stayed home with Frodo and the Ring, eventually falling completely under the spell and quarrelling irretrievably with Frodo for some imagined attempt to take the Ring. One way or the other, the Ring would come between Bilbo and Frodo, and Gandalf simply tried to minimize the damage, not only to both hobbits, but also to their relationship.

Cheers!
Lyta

[ninlaith]

I think Frodo was the perfect person to take the burden of the ring. He was never really suseptible to the finer things in life anyway. Frodo was the only one who would last with the burden of the ring without it taking hold of him. Why would a simple Hobbit want that kind of power? Especially when he already enjoys the simple life that he has. Yes, he dreamt of adventure and of far-off places but don't we all?

[Nurumaiel]

Why did he want to put Frodo through that?

I highly doubted that Gandalf wanted to put Frodo through anything. This is what I feel:

As Boromir88 said, Gandalf couldn't take the Ring himself. He said as much himself. That leaves, as Lyta pointed out, the choice of Bilbo or Frodo. Bilbo was already having difficulties with the Ring, and I feel that if he hadn't let it go when he did he never would have. Frodo was the only one left.

And then, of course, the main focus then was to take the Ring to Rivendell. The problem of bearing the Ring to Mordor to destroy it did not wholly arise until the Council of Elrond, and it was then that Frodo chose to take the Ring. 'I will take the Ring, though I do not know the way,' he said.

So what we have is this:

1- Gandalf could not have taken the Ring (see Boromir88's post).
2- It would be best if Bilbo did not take the Ring (see Lyta's post)
3- The objective then was to take the Ring to Rivendell, not all the way to Mordor

So considering the first two points, Frodo would be the only logical choice. Considering the third, the danger was not terribly immense. Gandalf had intended to go to Frodo to help him, but he was imprisoned in Isengard and detained. I don't believe he expected such sufferings to befall Frodo. By the time danger was pretty much inevitible, Frodo chose to take the Ring.

Alright, very good answers everyone. That pretty much takes care of it, thanks!




Berserk

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Another point could be added, about Gandalf's thinking and insight (presumably as a maia). PJ's movie actually kept the concept of Eru, either directly or through the valar, being behind Bilbo and Frodo coming into possession of the ring, both in the movie prologue and in Moria, although the citation actually is in Bagend "The Shadow of the Past", in one of the great passages in LOTR:

" 'Behind that there was something else at work, beyond any design of the Ring-Maker. I can put it no plainer than by saying that Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by its maker. In which case you also were meant to have it. And that may be an encouraging thought."

[Amanaduial the archer]

Tuor - I personally think that may just be Gandalph trying to comfort Frodo, and maybe himself - for it is, in a way, as Beserk first said, Gandalph who is putting Frodo through this.

However, Gandalph couldn't take it himself, as has been said - an idea I would add to this is that Gandalph knew too much about the Ring, and about it's maker. He knew all too well how the ring could corrupt, and of the people it had destroyed - but he also knew of it's 'pluses': the amount of power and influence which it could bring. Frodo was innocent of all that - the outside world had 'forgotten about the Shire' and the Shire was cut off from it. Everyone in Middle Earth would know something about the Ring, Sauron, and the Dark armies that were gathering under it's power - apart from the hobbits.

Even of the hobbits, not everyone would have been perfect, of course: but Frodo had been adopted by the oddball among oddballs, essentially - Bilbo Baggins, master storyteller, the first ringbearer, an adventurer...and generally considered rather odd. His mind was more open, and something within him wanted to go adventuring - he wanted to go with Bilbo, remember. And this, along with his innocence of the true power of the ring - he would pretty much believe whatever Gandalph and the others told him, he didn't exactly have a choice - made him perfect as a ringbearer who would not try to interfere.

But there is also a saying: "No one keeps a secret as well as a child". Now, while this may seem impossible to anyone here who has a younger sibling, it is in a way true - if a child has something they want to keep, or have been told again and again under dire circumstances not to let it go, nothing in the world will make them let go of it. Frodo was like this with the ring - maybe his innocence made him more than a little child like in this respect. He would not have given up the ring for anything - except maybe his friends. This was perhaps the one aspect that wise Gandalph did not take into account: the hobbits, unspoilt of all the people of Middle Earth, have preserved the simple, basic, 'fine' qualities - they enjoy simple pleasures, and friendship, love, and loyalty are some of the most important things in the world to them. This makes Frodo strong in some aspects, of course, but in others, it weakens him: if one of his friend's lives was directly threatened, Sam's for example, and the ring was the price to pay, I believe Frodo would give the ring.

A sidethought: did Gandalph blackmail Frodo into taking the ring, in a way? All his dire warnings and a very one-sided view of the ring's powers, even though he knew otherwise...

Of course, he was keeping Frodo's mind on the straight path, so that doubt would not alter his course, but if he had found out some of the missing information later...I think Gandalph may have taken a risk, to plunge the innocent little hobbit into a world he did not understand, without the full information he may have needed - imagine if Frodo had found out later on the pluses of the ring from someone biased the other way who had nonetheless showed him kindness. Would he have continued to trust Gandalph, when all the Wizard had really led him to was misfortune?

[obloquy]

This is a terrifying trend. Disturbing numbers of these have arisen in recent years and apart from the educational benefits I really see no reason to keep the project in operation. Propaganda abounds and is difficult to weed out of the didactic -- although usually quite preachy -- whole. Where it will lead ultimately, if allowed to persist, is anyone's guess: mine is that we will see much more serious examples of destructive spirit engendered in the disciples of this movement. On the flip side, who can live without tacos and nachos? This is the difficulty.

A sidethought: did Gandalph blackmail Frodo into taking the ring, in a way? All his dire warnings and a very one-sided view of the ring's powers, even though he knew otherwise...

Indeed, but wherefore?

[ohtatyaro]

You are taking it so far I can't follow. Gandalf knew too much? Did he? he thought it was one of the lesser rings until he tested it. and even after that he says something like 'noone but its master knows all about it' . I can not find the quote, but I do remember he says something very much like this.

[Azaelia of Willowbottom]

Frodo strong in some aspects, of course, but in others, it weakens him: if one of his friend's lives was directly threatened, Sam's for example, and the ring was the price to pay, I believe Frodo would give the ring.

Would he, though? I want to think he would, but I have to be a little more realistic. He certainly loves his friends enough to do that, and at the beginning of the journey, he certainly would... but remember, by the beginning of ROTK, he was so affected by the Ring, he nearly attacked Sam. He snapped out of it, but the Ring has got such a hold on him. It's not something that can just be given away or taken away. He couldn't even destroy it by the end, and that was not only the fate of his friends, but of all of middle-earth. Frodo is a very strong character who holds out against the corruption for a very long time, but no one can outlast it forever, even the strongest and purest of people.

[Boromir88]

Azaelia of Willowbottom
He certainly loves his friends enough to do that, and at the beginning of the journey, he certainly would

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Even at the beginning of the journey. Frodo has had the ring for 17 years now. Frodo wanted to throw it into his fire to destroy it, now of course that small fire wouldn't do anything against the ring. Point is when Gandalf asked him to do it, Frodo couldn't and he just stuck it back in his pocket. So you already have Frodo being "corrupted" by the ring, here before he even left Bag End. Now to say at this point in the stage would he give it up? I think he would but it would take some prodding and some help from Gandalf, in my opinion.

[Azaelia of Willowbottom]

Good point. I hadn't thought of that...