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Old 10-28-2003, 05:29 PM   #1
Findegil
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Join Date: Jul 2002
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Sting Fall of Doriath - Outlaws in Menegroth

The title Maédhros gave is not realy fitting for my Version, but here it goes:

Some conventions of my writing:
Normal Text is from the basic text that is mentioned above (when I change the basic-Text it will bementioned)
Bold Text source information, comments and remarks
{ } = text that should be deleted
[ ] = normalised text
<source > = additions with source information
example = text inserted for garmatical reason
/ / = outline expansion

The basic text is that of The Tale of the Nauglafring.
Since full-text quating is not appropirate any longer, I will only give the starting words of each paragraph of the basic text and all editions or delitions, but not the regular changes.

§17 (§293) RD-OM-01 Now therefore did {those}[some] of {Úrin}[Húrin]'s band murmur, and one said to the king: 'Lo, lord, our captain {Úrin}[Húrin], an old man and mad, has departed, but we have no mind to forego our gain.'

§18 (§294) Then said {Tinwelint}[Thingol] for neither was he untouched by the golden spell: RD-OM-02 {‘Nay then, know ye not that this gold belongs to the kindred of the Elves in common, for the Rodothlim who won it from the earth long time ago are no more, and no one has especial claim' to so much as a handful save only Úrin by reason of his son Túrin, who slew the Worm, the robber of the Elves; yet Túrin is dead and Úrin will have none of it; and Túrin was my man.’
§19 At those words the outlaws fell into great wrath, until the king said: }‘Get ye now gone, and seek not O foolish ones to quarrel with the Elves of the forest, lest death or the dread enchantments of Valinor find you in the woods. Neither revile ye the name of {Tinwelint}[Thingol] their king, for I will reward you richly enough for your travail and the bringing of the gold. Let each one now approach and take what he may grasp with either hand, and then depart in peace.’

§20 (§295) RD-OM-03 <editorial addition But Asgon rebuked his men and bowing to the king he left Doriath with his men in search for Húrin. But of there further fate or if they ever found him again no tale tells. And about Húrin><Q30{and} some have said, that he cast himself at last into the western sea, and so ended the mightiest of the warriors of mortal Men.> But<TT his words living after him bred estrangement between Elves and Men.>

Here I would end the chapter "The Wanderings of Húrin" and start with:

RD-OM-04 <WHThe Nauglamír
The Necklace if the Dwarves, ‘Sigil Elu-neath’
Necklace of the Woe of Thingol>

§21 taken out

§22 (§1) Now[ when Húrin and his Band had departed from Menegroth] came {Gwenniel}[Melian] to {Tinwelint}[Thingol] and said: ‘Touch not this gold, for my heart tells me it is trebly cursed. Cursed indeed by the dragon's breath, and cursed by RD-OM-05 {thy}[Orodreth's] lieges' blood that moistens it, and the death of those' they slew; but some more bitter and more binding ill methinks hangs over it that I may not see.’

§23 (§2) Then, remembering the wisdom of {Gwenniel}[Melian] his wife, the king was minded to hearken ... The value of that hoard no man could count, for amid the gold lay many gems, and these were very beautiful to look upon, for RD-OM-06 {the fathers of the Rodothlim}<based on The Flight of the Noldor in Sil77 more than any others of the Exiles> had <the house of Finarfin> brought <thence, memories of the bliss they had forsaken in>{ them out of} Valinor, a portion of that boundless treasury the {Noldoli}[Noldor] had there possessed.

§24a (§3) Now as he gazed {Tinwelint}[Thingol] said: ‘How glorious is this treasure! And{ I have not a tithe thereof, and} of the gems of Valinor [I have] none save that Silmaril that Beren won from {Angamandi}[Angband].’ But {Gwenniel}[Melian] who stood by said: ‘And that were worth all that here lies, were it thrice as great.’

§24b (§4) Then arose one from among the company, and that was Ufedhin[.]RD-OM-07 {, a Gnome; ... with the Orcs and soldiers of Melko also.}
As he stood in that place the spell of the gold had pierced the heart of Ufedhin more deeply ... might they but save the hoard from ruin.’

§25b (§5) RD-OM-08 {Then looked the king upon the gold and he looked upon Ufedhin, and that Gnome was clad very richly, ... the wayfarer in his halls. }Again looked {Tinwelint}[Thingol] upon the gold, and it shone yet more alluring fair, nor ever had the sparkle of the gems seemed so brilliant, RD-OM-09 <QS36 and the seed of the love of gold that was in his heart was waked to growth>[. And]{ and} Ufedhin said again: ‘Or in what manner, O King, dost thou guard that Silmaril of which all the world hath heard?’

§26 (§6) Now {Gwenniel}[Melian] warded it in a casket of wood bound with iron, and Ufedhin said it was shame so to set a jewel that should not touch aught less worthy than the purest gold. Then was {Tinwelint}[Thingol] abashed, and yielded[. ] RD-OM-10{, and … we take out the rest of this and the next 6 paragraphs until … and all these were so subtly made and so cunningly adorned that Tinwelint was glad beyond the hope of Ufedhin.’} RD-OM-11 <Q36 Wherefore he summoned the greatest of all craftsmen that now were in the western world, since Nargothrond was no more (and Gondolin was not known), the Dwarves of Nogrod{ and Belegost}, that they might fashion the gold and silver and the gems {(for much was yet unwrought) }into countless vessels and fair things{; and a marvellous necklace of great beauty they should make, whereon to hang the Silmaril}.

§27 (§7) But the Dwarves coming were stricken at once with the lust and desire of the treasure, and they plotted treachery. They said one to another: 'Is not this wealth as much the right of the Dwarves as of the elvish king, and was it not wrested evilly from Mîm?' Yet also they lusted for the Silmaril.> RD-OM-12 But as yet {the}[their] designs{ of Ufedhin} came to nought, for in no wise would {Tinwelint}[Thingol] suffer {or him or those of} the Nauglath to depart to Nogrod with or without that portion of{ the} unwrought gold{ that yet remained}, and he said: "How shall it be thought that after the weariness of your{ burdened} journeys hither I should let you so soon be gone, to noise the lack of courtesy of {Tinwelint}[Thingol] abroad in Nogrod? Stay now awhile and rest and feast, and afterward shall ye have the gold{ that remains} to work your pleasure on; nor shall aught of help that I or my folk may afford be wanting in your labour, and a reward rich and more than just awaits you at the end."

§28a (§8) RD-OM-13 {But they knew nonetheless that they were prisoners, and trying the exits privily found them strongly warded.} Being therefore without counsel they bowed before the king, and the faces of the Dwarf-folk show seldom what they think. Now after a time of rest was that{ last} smithying begun in a deep place of {Tinwelint}[Thingol]'s abode which he caused to be set apart for their uses[.]{, and what their hearts lacked therein fear supplied, and in all that work Ufedhin had a mighty part.}

§28b (§9) RD-OM-14 <LT2 – moved only a few paragraphs down Now come the Dwarves{ nonetheless over the bridge and} before the chair of {Tinwelint}[Thingol], and behold, the things of their workmanship they had conveyed thither in silken cloths, and boxes of rare woods carven cunningly. In other wise had {Úrin}[Húrin] haled the treasure thither, and half thereof lay yet in his rude sacks and clumsy chests; yet when the gold was once more revealed, then did a cry of wonder arise, for the things the Nauglath had made were{ more} wondrous{ far than the scanty vessels and the ornaments that the Rodothlim wrought of old}. Cups and goblets did the king behold, ... so cunningly adorned that {Tinwelint}[Thingol] was glad beyond the hope of {Ufedhin}[the Dwarves].>

§28c (§10) A golden crown they had made for {Tinwelint}[Thingol], who yet had worn nought but a wreath of scarlet leaves, and a helm too most glorious they had fashioned; and a sword of dwarven steel brought from afar was hilted with bright gold and damascened in gold and silver with strange figurings wherein was pictured clear the wolf-hunt of {Karkaras Knife-fang, father of wolves}[Charcharoth, the Red Maw]. That was a more wonderful sword than any {Tinwelint}[Thingol] had seen before RD-OM-15{, and outshone the sword in Ufedhin's belt the king had coveted. These things wereof Ufedhin's cunning, but}. And the Dwarves had made a coat of linked mail of steel and gold for {Tinwelint}[Thingol], and a belt of gold. Then was the king's heart gladdened, but they said: ‘All is not finished,’ and {Ufedhin}they had made a silver crown for {Gwenniel}[Melian], and{ aided by} the Dwarves had contrived slippers of silver crusted with diamonds, and the silver thereof was fashioned in delicate scales, so that it yielded as soft leather to the foot, and a girdle {he}they had made too of silver blended with pale gold. Yet were those things but a tithe of their works, and no tale tells a full count of them.

§28d (§11) Now when all was done and their smithcraft given to the king, then said {Ufedhin}[the Dwarves]: ‘O {Tinwelint}[Thingol], richest of kings, dost thou think these things fair?’ And he said: ‘Yea’; but {Ufedhin}[they] said: ‘Know then that great store ... , the Necklace of the Dwarves.’

§28e (§12) Then{ again} did {Tinwelint}[Thingol] doubt {Ufedhin's}[their] purpose, yet did he yield the boon, an they would suffer him to be present at that smithying.

§28f (§13) RD-OM-16 {None are that yet live,' quoth Ailios,' 'who have seen that most glorious thing, save only' Littleheart son of Bronweg, yet are many things told thereof.}[Many things were told of that most glorious thing.] Not only was it wrought with the greatest skill ... , and all its links were twined with baleful thoughts.

§28g (§14) Now however did they bear it before the king in its new-gleaming splendour; and then was the joy of {Tinwelint}[Thingol] king of the woodland Elves come to its crowning, and he cast the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír] about his throat, and straightway the curse of Mîm fell upon him. Then said {Ufedhin}[the Dwarves]: ‘Now, O Lord, that thou art pleased beyond thy hope, perchance thou wilt grant the craftsmen thy kingly reward, and suffer them to depart also in joy to their own lands.’

§28h §15) But {Tinwelint}[Thingol], bewildered by ... , yet would it be small enough, seeing that the labour was of love and {of Ufedhin's}[the] desire that the golden hoard be not cast away and lost. What then do ye wish that I may grant?’

§28i (§16) RD-OM-17 {Then said Ufedhin scornfully: ‘For myself, nothing, O Lord; indeed the guestkindliness of thy halls for seven moons and three is more than I desire.’ }But the Dwarves said: ’This do we ask. For our labours{ during seven moons} each seven jewels of Valinor, and seven robes of magic that only {Gwendelin}[Melian] can weave, and each a sack of gold; but for{ our great labour during}[the] three moons in thy halls unwilling, we ask each three sacks of silver, and each a cup of gold wherein to pledge thy health, O King, and each a fair maiden of the woodland Elves to fare away with us to our homes.’

§28j (§17) Then was King {Tinwelint}[Thingol] wroth indeed, ... undying shame.

§28k (§18) RD-OM-18 {Now that demand they had made only by the design of Ufedhin, yet}[Yet] seeing the anger of the king's face they said: ‘Nay, but this is not all[.]{, for in payment of Ufedhin's captivity for seven moons seven stout Elves must come with us and abide seven times seven years among us as bondsmen and menials in our labour.’} RD-OM-18 <Q30 {'}Is not this wealth as much the right of the Dwarves as of the elvish king, and was it not wrested evilly from Mîm?> RD-OM-19 <Sil77 By what right does the Elvenking lay claim to the Nauglamír, that {was}[we] made {by our fathers for}[out of the gold of] Finrod Felagund who is dead? It has come to him but by the hand of Húrin the Man of Dor-lómin, who took it as a thief out of the darkness of Nargothrond.'

§28l (§19) But Thingol perceived their hearts, and saw well that desiring the Silmaril they sought but a pretext and fair cloak for their true intent;>{Thereat} and he arose {Tinwelint}[Thingol] from his seat, and calling summoned his weaponed thanes and warriors, that these surrounded the Nauglath{ and those Gnomes}. Then said he:RD-OM-20 { ‘For your insolence each three stripes with stinging withes shall ye receive, and Ufedhin seven, and afterwards will we speak of recompense.’
When this was done, and a flame of bitter vengeance lit in those deep hearts, he said:} ‘Lo, for your labour {of seven months} six pieces of gold and one of silver each shall have, and for your labours in my halls each three pieces of gold and some small gem that I can spare. For your journey hither a great feast shall ye eat and depart with good store against your return, and ere ye go ye shall drink to {Tinwelint}[Thingol] in elfin wine RD-OM-21{; yet, mark ye, for the sustenance of Ufedhin seven idle months about my halls shall ye each pay a piece of gold, and of silver two, for he has not aughth imself and shall not receive since he desires it not, yet methinks he is at the bottom of your arrogance}.’

§29 (§20) Then were the Dwarves paid their reward like common smiths of bronze and iron[.] RD-OM-22{, and constrained to yield once more therefrom payment for Ufedhin - ‘else,’ said the king, ‘never shall ye get him hence.’} Then sat they to a great feast and dissembled their mood; yet at the end the time of their going came, and they drank to {Tinwelint}[Thingol] in elfin wine, but they cursed him in their beards, and {Ufedhin}[some] swallowed not and spat the wine from {his}[their] mouth upon the threshold.

The discussion will follow in the next posting.

Respectfully
Findegil

Edited change format.

Last edited by Findegil; 07-20-2004 at 01:30 PM.
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Old 10-29-2003, 05:10 PM   #2
Findegil
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Sting

Now at least to the discussion:

§17 Since we all wished to save Asgon from the cruse of Mîm and I needed a nonhomogeneous group, I changed "those" to "some".

§18 I removed Thingols first speech (and the § break). I think it is out of the picture that he claims the Hord so soon after he was scorned with it. To sent the Outlaws away with a share of the treasure that he wished Húrin to take with him fit the later Thingol much better.

§20 My addition of Asgons actions is based on nothing, but my feeling what he could have done. It is to risky I think. But as Aiwendil I think we have to finde a way to cut the fight between the outlaws and the Elves of Menegroth. At least my plot does not specify wether the outlaws took a part of the treasure or not and the fate of the outlaws is also left open.
The last statment are moved down because I wanted the end of The Wanderings of Húrin here.

§21 The mound of Avarice has no function since as jet we have no slain, so the § is taken out.

§22 I wanted to keep the blood stained felling of the gold, and since no one in Menegroth had died, I changed the sentence to make Melian refer to the Elves of Nargothrond and their enemies.

§23 The simpler change at the end of this § is the one Maedhros has given:
Quote:
§23 ... The value of that hoard no man could count, for amid the gold lay many gems, and these were very beautiful to look upon, for the fathers of the {Rodothlim}[Elves of Nargothrond] had brought them out of Valinor, a portion of that boundless treasury the {Noldoli}[Noldor] had there possessed.
But at least "the fathers of" should go as well. For such a phrase there are to many Elves in Nargothrond that were bron in Valinor them self, like Guilin.

$25a & b Maedhros toke § 25 from the Q30: Then the enchantment of the accrused ...
I felt the need of someone too urge Thingol not to follow Melians device. And since Ufedhin takes that role in the Tale I left him in it in these part. But I removed his strange history. I my version he is simply an Elf of Thingols household. I also removed his role as member of the smithcraft company that wrought the Nauglamír.

§26 Maedhros toke this § from the Sil77: In those days the Dwarves ...

§27 My first part is equall to Maedhros'. But the second part is missing in his. My plot was that the Dwarves would have taken the gold to Nogrod feigin to work on it there but were not allowed to do so by Thingol, who misstrusted them.

$28 Maedhros §28 reads:
Quote:
§ 28 [Long was their labour; and Thingol went down alone to their deep smithies, and sat ever among them as they worked. In time his desire was achieved, and the greatest of the works of Elves and Dwarves were brought together and made one; and its beauty was very great, {for now} [and it was called the Nauglamír (the necklace of the dwarves.)]{the} {c}[C]ountless jewels [were set on it] {of the Nauglamír} [and] did reflect and cast abroad in marvellous hues the light of the Silmaril amidmost ]. {Then Thingol, being alone among them, made to take it up and clasp it about his neck }TN**/[Yet alas, even had that gold of the [elves of Nargothrond] held no evil spell {still had that carcanet been a thing of little luck, for} the Dwarves were full of {bitterness} [lust], and all its links were twined with baleful thoughts. Now however did they bear it before the king [and clasp it about his neck], in its new-gleaming splendour; and {then} [great]was the joy of Thingol {king of the woodland Elves come to its crowning, and he cast the Nauglamír about his throat,} [but]{and} straightway the curse of Mîm fell upon him.]/{; but t}[T]he Dwarves in that moment {withheld it from him, and} demanded that he yield {it} [the treasure of Nargothrond] up to them, saying: 'By what right does the Elvenking lay claim to the {Nauglamír} [treasure], {that was made by our fathers for Finrod Felagund} [ of Mîm] who is dead? It has come to {him} [you] but by the hand of Húrin the Man of Dor-lómin, who took it as a thief out of the darkness of Nargothrond.' But Thingol perceived their hearts, and saw well that desiring the Silmaril they sought but a pretext and fair cloak for their true intent; and in his wrath and pride he gave no heed to his peril, but spoke to them in scorn, saying: 'How do ye of uncouth race dare to demand aught of me, Elu Thingol, Lord of Beleriand, whose life began by the waters of Cuiviénen years uncounted ere the fathers of the stunted people awoke?' And standing tall and proud among them he bade them with shameful words be gone unrequited out of Doriath.]
§ 29 [Then the lust of the Dwarves was kindled {to rage} [even more] by the words of the King; and they {rose up about him, and laid hands on him, and slew him as he stood.} [departed in anger from Menegroth.]]/
But I found the first plot better were the dwarves them self would ask the favour to take the Silmaril into their work. For that we need the double smithing. And that is started here.

§28b & c The treasure should have more part in the narative. It is in the end the main topic. So, I toke all descriptions together.

§28f The direct speech of Ailios has to go ofcourse but the description of the Nauglamír should be included.

§28i - §29 I removed Ufedhin from the bargaining and switched his statemens to the Dwarves. Also the two parts of the work 3 month and 7 month is gone. But the invoice of the dwarves is unchanged. Even the maidens. I sticked to that idea remembering Gimli who was over found of Galadriel.
The addition from Q30 and the Sil77 bring the Version of the tale into accorde with the description of the Hobbit.

Respcetfully
Findegil

[ November 14, 2003: Message edited by: Findegil ]
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Old 12-07-2004, 11:53 AM   #3
Findegil
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This is the first draft of an expansion of the storyline-version. Our basis text is: The History of Middle-Earth; volume 4; The Shaping of Middle-Earth; chapter III: The Quenta Noldorinwa (Q30).

We have three groups of changes:

RD-zz: General changes given and discussed in the thread “**Ruin of Doriath - Pre-Revision speculation/proposal thread**”. These changes are taken up here, but they are not indicated by "editorial markers"

RD-SL-zz: Changes done to make the storyline fit our understanding developed in the Thread “**Ruin of Doriath - Pre-Revision speculation/proposal thread**”. In that thread I made the mistake to mark them with FD-SL-zz. But the numbers are identical. My apologise if that change does produce a mass now. Some numbers are missing, but that is normal since some of the points of the storyline-discussion did not produce any change in the text.

RD-EX-zz For expansions taken from some other source to make the story more detailed. This also includes some changes made in the expansion, which I marked for easier reference.

At the beginning we have to create a transition from The Wanderingas of Húrin (WH). Over all the basis text will show trough not to much I think. But we will use it as a leading guideline and any part that is exchanged for some other text should be shown. As before, I start with §266 of WH, which is the last of that text.

I have tried to stick to the §-numbering done by Maédhros for his first draft, so that a comparison between that draft #1, my own earlier Version and the current text will be easier. In addition I have numbered the § anew in brackets starting with §267 in continuation of WH and starting over again when we come to the purposed chapter break. If a § of the basic-text is deleted completely it is not numbered.

As it has some value as a double-check during my work I will give here in addition to the edited version a clean text version.

Some conventions of my writing:
Normal Text is from the basic text that is mentioned above (when I change the basic-Text it will be mentioned)
Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks
{ } = text that should be deleted
[ ] = normalised text
<source > = additions with source information
example = text inserted for grammatical reason
/ / = outline expansion
Normally if an inserted text includes the beginning of a new § these is indicated by a missing “>” at the end of the § and a missing “<” at the beginning of the next. But the source information is repeated before each §. But some times the new § was taken as an new add and handled accordingly.

Here after is given the Version for the public forum. I have ripped it of some of the textual content in many § by inerting dots instead. These dots conceal only General changes (RD-zz), all other changes are given so that they can (hopefuly) be understood.

Quote:
§17a (§288) RD-EX-20 <TN{'Behold then,' said Ailios, 'in}In great grief gazed the king upon {Úrin}[Húrin] as he left the hall, and … touched by its subtle evil.>

§17b (§289) RD-SL-08<TN Now therefore did {those}[many] of {Úrin}[Húrin]'s band murmur, and one said to the king: 'Lo, lord, our captain {Úrin}[Húrin], an old man and mad, has departed, but we have no mind to forego our gain.'

§18 (§290) TN Then said {Tinwelint}[Thingol] for neither was he untouched by the golden spell: {‘Nay then, know ye not … until the king said: }‘Get ye now gone, and seek not O foolish ones to quarrel …. and then depart in peace.’>

§20 (§291) RD-SL-09<TN Now were the Elves of the wood in turn displeased, who long had stood nigh gazing on the gold; but the wild folk[ among Húrin’s band] did as they were bid, and <editorial bridge all his man departed,> RD-SL-10<TN and none may say what was {his}there unhappy weird thereafter; and little but a tortured heart got {he}they from the Gold of {Glorund}[Glaurung].>

RD-EX-21 <WH| The Nauglamír
The Necklace of the Dwarves, ‘Sigil Elu-neath’
Necklace of the Woe of Thingol>

§22 (§1) RD-EX-22<TN Now<editorial brigde when Húrin and his Band had departed from Menegroth> came {Gwenniel}[Melian] to {Tinwelint}[Thingol] and said: ‘Touch not … that I may not see.’

§23 (§2) RD-EX-24 TN Then, remembering the wisdom of {Gwenniel}[Melian] his wife, the king was minded to hearken, … and scabbards, and sheaths for daggers.> RD-EX-25 <TN Cups and goblets did the king behold, and some had double bowls … and all these were{ so} subtly made> RD-EX-26 <TN; but the {most}[a] part was of red gold unwrought lying in masses and in bars. The value of that hoard no man could count, for amid the gold lay many gems, and these were very beautiful to look upon, for RD-EX-27 {the fathers of the Rodothlim}<based on The Flight of the Noldor in Sil77 more than any others of the Exiles> had <the house of Finarfin> brought <thence, memories of the bliss they had forsaken in>{ them out of} Valinor, a portion of that boundless treasury the {Noldoli}[Noldor] had there possessed.>

§24a (§3) RD-EX-28<TN Now as he gazed {Tinwelint}[Thingol] said: ‘How glorious is this treasure! And{ I have not a tithe thereof, and} of the gems of Valinor I have none save that Silmaril that Beren won from {Angamandi}[Angband].’ But {Gwenniel}[Melian] who stood by said: ‘And that were worth all that here lies, were it thrice as great.’>

§24b (§4) RD-EX-29 <TN Again looked {Tinwelint}[Thingol] upon the gold, and it shone yet more alluring fair, nor ever had the sparkle of the gems seemed so brilliant>. Then the enchantment of the accursed dragon gold began to fall even upon the king of Doriath, and long he sat and gazed upon it, and the seed of the love of gold … the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost, that they might fashion the gold and silver and the gems (for {much}[a part] was yet unwrought) into countless vessels and fair things; and a marvellous necklace of great beauty they should make, whereon to hang the Silmaril.> RD-EX-30 <Sil77 For as the years passed Thingol’s thought turned unceasingly to the jewel of Fëanor, and became bound to it, and he liked not to let it rest even behind the doors of his inmost treasury; and he was minded now to bear it with him always, waking and sleeping.>

§26 (§5) RD-EX-31<Sil77 In those days the Dwarves still came on their journeys into Beleriand from their mansions in Ered Lindon, and passing over {Gelion}[Duin Daer] at {Sarn }Athrad[ Daer], the [Great ]Ford{ of Stones}, they travelled the ancient road to Doriath; for their skill … and {Gelion}[Duin Daer] RD-EX-32{; and they dwelt in Menegroth at such times in chambers and smithies set apart for them}. At that very time great craftsmen of Nogrod RD-EX-33{were lately come}came into Doriath{; and}[at] the King’s{ therefore} summon{ing them }, and he declared them his desire, that if their skill were great enough they should {re}make {the Nauglamír} RD-EX-34<TN a marvellous necklace of great beauty>, and in it set the Silmaril.>

§27 (§6) But the Dwarves coming were stricken at once with the lust and desire of the treasure, and they plotted treachery. They said one to another: 'Is not this wealth as much the right of the Dwarves as of the elvish king, and was it not wrested evilly from Mîm?' Yet also they lusted for the Silmaril. RD-EX-35 <TNBut as yet {the}their<editorial bridge treacherous> designs{ of Ufedhin} came to nought, for in no wise would {Tinwelint}[Thingol] suffer {or him or those of} the Nauglath to depart to Nogrod with or without {that}[any] portion of the unwrought gold that yet remained, and he said: ‘How shall it be thought that after the weariness of your{ burdened} journeys hither … a reward rich and more than just awaits you at the end.’>

§28a (§7) RD-EX-36 <TN Being therefore without counsel they bowed before the king, and the faces of the Dwarf-folk show seldom what they think. Now after a time of rest was that{ last} smithying begun in a deep place of {Tinwelint}[Thingol]'s abode which he caused to be set apart for their uses{, and what their hearts lacked therein fear supplied, and in all that work Ufedhin had a mighty part}.>

§28c (§8) RD-EX-37<TN A golden crown they made for {Tinwelint}[Thingol], who yet had worn nought but a wreath of scarlet leaves, and a helm too most glorious they fashioned; and a sword of {dwarfen}[dwarven] steel brought from afar was hilted with bright gold and damascened in gold and silver with strange figurings wherein was pictured clear the wolf-hunt of {Karkaras Knife-fang, father of} [Carcharoth, the Red Maw greatest of all] wolves. That was a more wonderful sword than any {Tinwelint}[Thingol] had seen before RD-EX-38{, and outshone the sword in Ufedhin's belt the king had coveted. These things wereof Ufedhin's cunning, but}. And the Dwarves made a coat of linked mail of steel and gold for {Tinwelint}[Thingol], and a belt of gold. Then was the king's heart gladdened, but they said: ‘All is not finished,’ and {Ufedhin}they made a silver crown for {Gwenniel}[Melian], and{ aided by} the Dwarves contrived slippers of silver crusted with diamonds, and the silver thereof was fashioned in delicate scales, so that it yielded as soft leather to the foot, and a girdle {he}they made too of silver blended with pale gold. Yet were those things but a tithe of their works, and no tale tells a full count of them.>

§28d (§9) RD-EX-39 <TN Now {come}[came] the Dwarves{ nonetheless over the bridge and} before the chair of {Tinwelint}[Thingol], and behold, the things … the things the Nauglath had made were{ more} wondrous>. RD-EX-40<TN Now when all was done and their smithcraft given to the king, then said {Ufedhin}[the Dwarves]: ‘O {Tinwelint}[Thingol], richest of kings, dost thou think these things fair?’ And he said: ‘Yea’; but {Ufedhin}[they] said: ‘Know then that great store of thy best and purest gold remaineth still, for we have husbanded it, {having a boon to ask of thee, and it is this: }we would make thee a carcanet and … amid the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír], the Necklace of the Dwarves.’>

§28e (§10) RD-EX-41<TN Then{ again} did {Tinwelint}[Thingol] doubt {Ufedhin's}[their] purpose, yet did he yield the {boon}[jewel], an they would suffer him to be present at that smithying.>

§28f (§11) RD-EX-42<TN {None are that yet live,' quoth Ailios,' 'who have seen that most glorious thing, save only' Littleheart son of Bronweg, yet are many things told thereof.}[Many things were told of that most glorious thing.] Not only was it wrought … the Silmaril of Fëanor, jewel of the {Gods}[Valar]. Yet alas, even had that gold of the {Rodothlim}[Narogthrim] held no evil spell still had that carcanet been a thing of little luck, for the Dwarves were full of bitterness, and all its links were twined with baleful thoughts.>

§28g (§12) RD-EX-43 <TN Now however did they bear it before the king in its new-gleaming splendour; … joy to their own lands.’>

§28h (§13) RD-EX-44 <TN But {Tinwelint}[Thingol], bewildered by the golden spell and the curse of Mîm, liked not the memory of his tryst; yet dissembling he bid the craftsmen come before him, and he praised their handiwork with royal words.> And{ Thingol}, falling deeper into the thraldom of the spell, for his part {scanted}scanting his promised reward for their labour{;}, RD-EX-45 <TN he said: ‘Lo, for your labour {of seven months} six pieces of gold and one of silver each shall have, and for your labours in my halls each three pieces of gold and some small gem that I can spare. For your journey hither a great feast {shall} ye {eat}have eaten and depart ye shall with good store against your return, and ere ye go ye shall drink to {Tinwelint}[Thingol] in elfin wine.>

§29 (§14) RD-EX-46 <TN Then were the Dwarves paid their reward like common smiths of bronze and iron,> and bitter words grew between them[ and Thingol].<Sil77 {;but}And the Dwarves in that moment {withheld it from him, and} demanded that he yield {it} [the treasure of Nargothrond and the Nauglamír] up to them, saying: ‘By what right does the Elvenking lay claim to the Nauglamír, that was made by [us]{our fathers for}[out of the treasure of] Finrod Felagund who is dead? It has come to him but by the hand of Húrin the Man of Dor-lómin, who took it as a thief out of the darkness of Nargothrond.’ But Thingol perceived their hearts, and saw well that desiring the [treasure and the] Silmaril they sought but a pretext and fair cloak for their true intent; and in his wrath and pride he gave no heed to his peril, but spoke to them in scorn, saying:> RD-EX-47 <TN ‘Nay then, know ye not that this gold belongs to the kindred of the Elves in common, for the {Rodothlim}[Narogthrim] who won it from the earth long time ago are no more, and no one has especial claim' to so much as a handful save only {Úrin}[Húrin] by reason of his son Túrin, who slew the Worm, the robber of the Elves; yet Túrin is dead and {Úrin}[Húrin] will have none of it; and Túrin was my man.’>RD-EX-48<TN Thereat arose {Tinwelint}[Thingol] from his seat, and calling summoned his weaponed thanes and warriors, that these surrounded the Nauglath>, and there was battle in Thingol's halls. There many Elves and Dwarves were slain, and the howe wherein they were laid in Doriath was named Cum-nan-Arasaith, the Mound of Avarice. But the remainder of the Dwarves were driven forth without reward or fee.
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Old 12-07-2004, 11:25 PM   #4
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§17b (§289) RD-SL-08<TN Now therefore did {those}[many] of {Úrin}[Húrin]'s band murmur, and one said to the king: 'Lo, lord, our captain {Úrin}[Húrin], an old man and mad, has departed, but we have no mind to forego our gain.'
Why the change of those to many?

Quote:
§20 (§291) RD-SL-09<TN Now were the Elves of the wood in turn displeased, who long had stood nigh gazing on the gold; but the wild folk[ among Húrin’s band] did as they were bid, and <editorial bridge all his men departed,> RD-SL-10<TN and none may say what was {his}there unhappy weird thereafter; and little but a tortured heart got {he}they from the Gold of Glaurung.>
should be:
Quote:
§20 (§291) RD-SL-09<TN Now were the Elves of the wood in turn displeased, who long had stood nigh gazing on the gold; but the wild folk[ among Húrin’s band] did as they were bid, and <editorial bridge all his men departed,> RD-SL-10<TN and none may say what was {his}there unhappy weird thereafter; and little but a tortured heart got {he}they from the Gold of Glaurung.>
In this:
Quote:
RD-EX-26 <TN; but the {most}[a] part was of red gold unwrought lying in masses and in bars. The value of that hoard no man could count, for amid the gold lay many gems, and these were very beautiful to look upon, for RD-EX-27 {the fathers of the Rodothlim}<based on The Flight of the Noldor in Sil77 more than any others of the Exiles> had < [those of ] the house of Finarfin> brought <thence, memories of the bliss they had forsaken in>{ them out of} Valinor, a portion of that boundless treasury the Noldor had there possessed.>
I think that the first part in bold sounds akward. I would say rather: but a part was. Maybe Aiwendil has a better suggestion.
The second bold phrase I added because I thought that it sounded better.

Quote:
§28c (§8) RD-EX-37<TN A golden crown they made for Thingol, {who yet had worn nought but a wreath of scarlet leaves}, and a helm too most glorious they fashioned; and a sword of dwarven steel brought from afar was hilted with bright gold and damascened in gold and silver with strange figurings wherein was pictured clear the wolf-hunt of {Karkaras Knife-fang, father of}
I would delete who yet had worn nought but a wreath of scarlet leaves because the later Thingol was a very rich king before the arrival of the gold from Nargothrond. It would seem odd that he would not have had a crown or something similar.

Quote:
§28d (§9) RD-EX-39 <TN Now {come}[came] the Dwarves{ nonetheless over the bridge and} before the {chair}[throne] of Thingol, and behold, the things of their workmanship they had conveyed thither in silken cloths, and boxes of rare woods carven cunningly.
I deleted chair and changed it to throne. Same reasons as above. I suppose it is possible that Thingol was in a chair, but a throne seems more reasonable to me.

Quote:
§28h (§13) RD-EX-44 <TN But Thingol, bewildered by the golden spell and the curse of Mîm, liked not the memory of his tryst; yet dissembling he bid the craftsmen come before him, and he praised their handiwork with royal words.> And{ Thingol}, falling deeper into the thraldom of the spell, for his part {scanted}scanting his promised reward for their labour{;}, RD-EX-45 <TN he said: ‘Lo, for your labour {of seven months} six pieces of gold and one of silver each shall have, and for your labours in my halls each three pieces of gold and some small gem that I can spare. For your journey hither a great feast {shall} ye {eat}have eaten and depart ye shall with good store against your return, and ere ye go ye shall drink to Thingol in {elfin}[elvish] wine.>
It should be elvish and not elfin.
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Old 12-08-2004, 07:52 AM   #5
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§17b those -> many: "those" did in my reading include the complete band, all the men that had followed Húrin to Menegroth. When I remeber rightly we all agreed that there should be at least the possibility of an expaction. That is what I tried to provide with "many".

§23 RD-EX-26 "the most part" -> "a part" was what I wanted, but I failed to recognise my false editing.

§28c The change from circlet of scarlet leaves to a real crown is in my view not (only) a sign for the change from a poor woodland king to wealthy owner of a treasure. It is for me also the a sign for the change form a erathbound and just ruler of the woodland folk to a cocky and self-righteous king. Therefore I would include it. Think of Thranduil in the Hobbit. He is dicribed: "If the elf-king had a weakness it was for treasure, especially for silver and white gems; and though his hoard was rich, he ever was eager for more, since he had not yet as great a treasure as other elf-lords of old." If his hoard was rich, he could clearly have worne a crown and wield a silver sceptre, but "On his head was crown of berries and red leaves, for autumn was come again. In the spring he wore a crown of woodland flowers. In his hand he held a craven staff of oak." Maybe he followed Thingols excample in wear as he did in building?

§28d "chair" -> "throne": Since any throne is ever also a chair, I would label this change stylistic.

The rest of the changes are either typos of mine or things I forgot to incooperat. Either way I will correct them for the next version.

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Old 12-18-2004, 03:13 PM   #6
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Quote:
and none may say what was {his}there
Should be "their".

Quote:
and little but a tortured heart got {he}they from the Gold of {Glorund}[Glaurung].
If our idea is to make the ultimate fate of the outlaws ambiguous, then this doesn't work, as it asserts that they did in fact survive.

RD-EX-21

Is this necessary? The Turin chapter will surely end as the Narn ends, with the death of Turin and Nienor and the carving of the stone, rather than continuing as TN does to tell of Hurin's subsequent journeys. And post-Lost Tales, the two sections (Wanderings of Hurin and Necklace of the Dwarves) are unified as "The Ruin of Doriath".

It's a fairly inconsequential point, though.


RD-EX-22

Looks like another minor typo:
Quote:
and the death of those'
The apostrophe is a mistake, I think.

RD-EX-26

I do wonder whether the change of "the most part" to "a part" is necessary. I don't know of any pressing reason that the folk of Nargothrond would not have a great deal of unwrought gold.

On the other hand, if we use "a part" then we are on completely safe ground canonically - for it could mean a small part or a large part. And it is a minor change. So I suppose I'll go with it.

RD-EX-27

Quote:
for RD-EX-27 {the fathers of the Rodothlim}<based on The Flight of the Noldor in Sil77 more than any others of the Exiles> had <the house of Finarfin> brought <thence, memories of the bliss they had forsaken in>{ them out of} Valinor, a portion of that boundless treasury the {Noldoli}[Noldor] had there possessed.>
The "thence" here seems to lack a reference. We could fix it with:

Quote:
for RD-EX-27 {the fathers of the Rodothlim}<based on The Flight of the Noldor in Sil77 more than any others of the Exiles> had <the house of Finarfin> brought <{thence} [out of Aman], memories of the bliss they had forsaken in> {them out of} Valinor, a portion of that boundless treasury the {Noldoli}[Noldor] had there possessed.>
But I wonder whether this addition from the 77 is necessary. Does it derive from some other source or is it an invention of CT? We could follow TN more closely:

Quote:
for RD-EX-27 {the fathers of the Rodothlim} [the people of Finarfin] had brought with them out of Valinor a portion of that boundless treasury the {Noldoli}[Noldor] had there possessed.>
RD-EX-28

Is it still true that Thingol has no gems of Valinor save the Silmaril? Considering that it is later suggested that there was great trade through Doriath, both with the Feanorians in the east and the people of Fingolfing and Finarfin in the west, this seems doubtful.

RD-EX-30

As is my wont, I wonder here about the QS77 addition. But in this case it may indeed provide a necessary reference to the Silmaril.

RD-EX-32

Quote:
At that very time great craftsmen of Nogrod RD-EX-33{were lately come}cameinto Doriath
I think that if we change "were lately come" to "came" (as indeed we should) we must remove "very" (which in the original emphasizes the coincidence that there were craftsmen of Nogrod in Menegroth at the same time that Hurin came there). So:
Quote:
At that {very} time great craftsmen of Nogrod RD-EX-33{were lately come}came into Doriath
Quote:
[at] the King's {therefore} summon{ing them }, and he declaredthem his desire, that if their skill were great enough they should {re}make {the Nauglamír}
I think this should be:

Quote:
[at] the King's {therefore} summon[s]{ing them}, and he declared to them his desire, that if their skill were great enough they should {re}make {the Nauglamír}
There is a problem of repetition between §24b and §26. Twice we tell that the King bade the Dwarves fashion a great necklace. Perhaps we could simply delete the end of §26, after ". . . his desire". Thus simply:

Quote:
. . . [at] the King's {therefore} summon[s]{ing them}, and he declaredto them his desire[.]
For we have already, in the previous paragraph, declared what that desire was.

RD-EX-35

Shouldn't "Nauglath" become "Naugrim"? Or is "Nauglath" retained as an alternative form?

RD-EX-37

About the crown of leaves: I think that, despite Thingol's wealth in the later versions, it is safe to retain the reference here; it is said in the Lay of Leithian recommenced that he wore a crown of leaves.

Quote:
[Carcharoth, the Red Maw greats of all] wolves
Another typo - should be "greatest".

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That was a more wonderful sword than any {Tinwelint}[Thingol] had seen before
In the later stories, Thingol has seen such swords as Aranruth and Anglachel. I rather doubt that this statement is safe, particularly in light of the latter.

RD-EX-38

Quote:
Then was the king's heart gladdened, but they said: ‘All is not finished,' and {Ufedhin}they made a silver crown for {Gwenniel}[Melian], and{ aided by} the Dwarves contrived slippers of silver crusted with diamonds
I think that for the sake of the English this should be:

Quote:
Then was the king's heart gladdened, but they said: ‘All is not finished,' and {Ufedhin}they made a silver crown for {Gwenniel}[Melian], and {aided by the Dwarves} they contrived slippers of silver crusted with diamonds
RD-EX-39

Quote:
yet when the gold was once more revealed, then did a cry of wonder arise, for the things the Nauglath had made were{ more} wondrous>.
Why delete "more"? Even if we suppose that only a small part was unwrought gold, still the treasure must be more wondrous after the Dwarves have fashioned it than before.

RD-EX-40

Quote:
but {Ufedhin}[they] said: ‘Know then that great store of thy best and purest gold remaineth still, for we have husbanded it, {having a boon to ask of thee, and it is this: }we would make thee a carcanet and to its making lay all the skill and cunning that we have, and we desire that this should be the most marvellous ornament that the Earth has seen, and the greatest of the works of Elves and Dwarves. Therefore we beg of thee to let us have that Silmaril that thou treasurest, that it may shine wondrously amid the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír], the Necklace of the Dwarves.'>
This does not work, for in our version we have already said (twice!) that Thingol bade the Dwarves fashion the necklace. I think we must delete this, and with it §28e - we could perhaps replace it with a simple statement that they now brought forth the Nauglamir.

RD-EX-42
"Narogthrim" - is this attested? I cannot recall it.

RD-EX-47

Another misplaced apostrophe:
Quote:
and no one has especial claim'
RD-EX-48

Quote:
<TN Thereat arose {Tinwelint}[Thingol] from his seat
"Thereat" - at what? In our version, it is Thingol that has just spoken. I think we might want to change this to:

Quote:
<TN {Thereat} [Then] arose {Tinwelint}[Thingol] from his seat
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Old 12-18-2004, 09:16 PM   #7
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and little but a tortured heart got {he}they from the Gold of {Glorund}[Glaurung].

If our idea is to make the ultimate fate of the outlaws ambiguous, then this doesn't work, as it asserts that they did in fact survive.
Perhaps you can propose something that will do the trick.

Quote:
RD-EX-21

Is this necessary? The Turin chapter will surely end as the Narn ends, with the death of Turin and Nienor and the carving of the stone, rather than continuing as TN does to tell of Hurin's subsequent journeys. And post-Lost Tales, the two sections (Wanderings of Hurin and Necklace of the Dwarves) are unified as "The Ruin of Doriath".

It's a fairly inconsequential point, though.
I rather like the The Necklace of the Dwarves, ‘Sigil Elu-neath’ Necklace of the Woe of Thingol. I would rather keep it unless there is an overriding reason that we should not.

Quote:
But I wonder whether this addition from the 77 is necessary. Does it derive from some other source or is it an invention of CT? We could follow TN more closely:
Actually it comes from Annals of Aman
Quote:
§143 ..... but at the rear went Finrod and Inglor, and many of the fairest and wisest of the Noldor; and often they looked behind them to see their fair city, until the lamp of the Mindon Eldaliéva was lost in the night. More than any others of the exiles they carried thence memories of the bliss that they had forsaken, and some even of the fair things that they had made there they took with them: a solace and a burden on the road.
I like your suggestion but I would rather keep the part in which it states that a part of the treasure of Nargothrond came from Valinor itself, making it more valuable and desirable. (In my mind at least)

Quote:
RD-EX-28<TN Now as he gazed {Tinwelint}[Thingol] said: ‘How glorious is this treasure! And{ I have not a tithe thereof, and} of the gems of Valinor I have none save that Silmaril that Beren won from {Angamandi}[Angband].’ But {Gwenniel}[Melian] who stood by said: ‘And that were worth all that here lies, were it thrice as great.’>
So, it should be:
Quote:
RD-EX-28<TN Now as he gazed {Tinwelint}[Thingol] said: ‘How glorious is this treasure! {And I have not a tithe thereof, and of the gems of Valinor I have none save that Silmaril that Beren won from {Angamandi}[Angband]}.’ But {Gwenniel}[Melian] who stood by said: ‘And that were worth all that here lies, were it thrice as great.’>
Quote:
RD-EX-35

Shouldn't "Nauglath" become "Naugrim"? Or is "Nauglath" retained as an alternative form?
I think that you are right.

Quote:
RD-EX-37

About the crown of leaves: I think that, despite Thingol's wealth in the later versions, it is safe to retain the reference here; it is said in the Lay of Leithian recommenced that he wore a crown of leaves.
From the Lays of Beleriand: The Lay of Leithian Recommenced

Quote:
A king there was in days of old:
ere Men yet walked upon the mould
his power was reared in caverns’ shade,
his hand was over glen and glade.
Of leaves his crown, his mantle green,
I had missed that reference.

Quote:
In the later stories, Thingol has seen such swords as Aranruth and Anglachel. I rather doubt that this statement is safe, particularly in light of the latter.
Correct, but one can make the point that it was the dwarf sword that was the Aranruth. Just to be safe, it think we should delete that reference.

Of the other changes I didn't comment on I'm ok with them.
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Old 12-19-2004, 03:43 PM   #8
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Perhaps you can propose something that will do the trick.
I would simply delete this part, thus:

Quote:
RD-SL-10<TN and none may say what was {his} theirunhappy weird thereafter{; and little but a tortured heart got he from the Gold of Glorund}.>
RD-EX-21

Quote:
I rather like the The Necklace of the Dwarves, ‘Sigil Elu-neath’ Necklace of the Woe of Thingol. I would rather keep it unless there is an overriding reason that we should not.
I think we should try to stick to Tolkien's intended chapter breaks. There is some possibility that he would have considered "Wanderings" a separate tale from "Sigil Elu-naeth", but I don't think there's any hard evidence for that.

RD-EX-27

Quote:
Actually it comes from Annals of Aman
Ah. Still, it was never intended for use here. I am inclined now toward my proposal:

Quote:
for RD-EX-27 {the fathers of the Rodothlim} [the people of Finarfin] had brought with them out of Valinor a portion of that boundless treasury the {Noldoli}[Noldor] had there possessed.>
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Old 12-19-2004, 04:16 PM   #9
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I think we should try to stick to Tolkien's intended chapter breaks. There is some possibility that he would have considered "Wanderings" a separate tale from "Sigil Elu-naeth", but I don't think there's any hard evidence for that.
But didn't we use subtitles in our Eärendil chapter?

Quote:
for RD-EX-27 {the fathers of the Rodothlim} [the people of Finarfin] had brought with them out of Valinor a portion of that boundless treasury the {Noldoli}[Noldor] had there possessed.>
It is basically the same thing, so we will have to wait what Findegil thinks about it.

I think that basically we are done with this part too.
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Old 12-19-2004, 04:50 PM   #10
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RD-SL-10:
Quote:
If our idea is to make the ultimate fate of the outlaws ambiguous, then this doesn't work, as it asserts that they did in fact survive.
Survive what? We have at least let them survive the meeting in Menegroth so I don't see why you are not happy with the fate of Ufedhin used for the outlaws. In TN he was a example of one that was not killed by the cruse but was effected by it, so I found it fit. But as Maedhros said if you have a better replacment, I would be happy to read it.

RD-EX-21: I don't think that we will have a "Turin chapter". What we will have is the Narn. And WH is in my view a part of it. Thus we would have a chapter break here. But this is clearly open for discussion.

RD-EX-26: The change was supposed by Maédhros. And agree with him that it would be starnge for the later Elves of Nargothrond to have a hughe treasure of unwrought gold. As you said your self to skip "the most" is safer.

RD-EX-27: Since it might be that we will use the passage from The Annals of Aman in it proper place, I agree that we should follow TN more closly. Since your change does also what Maédhros desiered we will take it.

RD-EX-28: Agree, we can not be sure that Thingol has no Gems. But I would like to hold more of the sentence that Maédhros suggested:
Quote:
§24a (§3) RD-EX-28<TN Now as he gazed {Tinwelint}[Thingol] said: ‘How glorious is this treasure! And I have not a tithe{ thereof, and} of the gems of Valinor {none save}[other then] that Silmaril that Beren won from {Angamandi}[Angband].’ But {Gwenniel}[Melian] who stood by said: ‘And that were worth all that here lies, were it thrice as great.’>
RD-EX-30: If even you find it your self necesary then I don't think we can skip it.

RD-EX-32: Agreed.

RD-EX-35: Agreed, my assumption that it was still an valid alternativ profed to be wrong.

RD-EX-37:
Quote:
In the later stories, Thingol has seen such swords as Aranruth and Anglachel. I rather doubt that this statement is safe, particularly in light of the latter.
I agree that Thingol has seen many more marvelous swords that Tinwelint, but that does not mean that they were more wonderous than these particular sword. Form Aranruth we do not know any thing than the name. From Anglachel we get no good discription either when I remember rightly. Would it be safer then to name the new sword "more adorned" since it is clearly meant to be very glorious and not wonderous in the sense of being a mighty sword.

RD-EX-39: I agree, and found that we might even save more of the text:
Quote:
§28d (§9) RD-EX-39 <TN Now {come}[came] the Dwarves{ nonetheless over the bridge and} before the chair of {Tinwelint}[Thingol], and behold, the things of their workmanship they had conveyed thither in silken cloths, and boxes of rare woods carven cunningly. In other wise had {Úrin}[Húrin] haled the treasure thither{, and half thereof lay yet} in his rude sacks and clumsy chests}; yet when the gold was once more revealed, then did a cry of wonder arise, for the things the Nauglath had made were more wondrous>. ...
RD-EX-40: This is an left over of the two smithings that I would have liked to hold. But if that does not work than I think we should hold some of the conversation as an intro to the presentation of the Nauglamír:
Quote:
§28d (§9) RD-EX-39 <TN Now {come}[came] the Dwarves{ nonetheless over the bridge and} before the chair of {Tinwelint}[Thingol], and behold, the things of their workmanship they had conveyed thither in silken cloths, and boxes of rare woods carven cunningly. In other wise had {Úrin}[Húrin] haled the treasure thither{, and half thereof lay yet} in his rude sacks and clumsy chests}; yet when the gold was once more revealed, then did a cry of wonder arise, for the things the Nauglath had made were more wondrous>. RD-EX-40<TN Now when all was done and their smithcraft given to the king, then said {Ufedhin}[the Dwarves]: ‘O {Tinwelint}[Thingol], richest of kings, dost thou think these things fair?’ And he said: ‘Yea’; but {Ufedhin}[they] said: ‘Know then that great store of thy best and purest gold{ remaineth still, for }[did]we have husbanded{ it}, {having a boon to ask of thee, and it is this: we would}[to] make thee a carcanet and to its making lay all the skill and cunning that we have, and we desire that this should be the most marvellous ornament that the Earth has seen, and the greatest of the works of Elves and Dwarves. Therefore we {beg of thee to let us have}[toke from thee] that Silmaril that thou treasurest, that it may shine wondrously amid the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír], the Necklace of the Dwarves.’>
We skip then §28e. But I would like to use that § earlier:
Quote:
§27 (§6) But the Dwarves coming were stricken at once with the lust and desire of the treasure, and they plotted treachery. They said one to another: 'Is not this wealth as much the right of the Dwarves as of the elvish king, and was it not wrested evilly from Mîm?' Yet also they lusted for the Silmaril.RD-EX-35 <TNBut as yet {the}their<editorial bridge treacherous> designs{ of Ufedhin} came to nought, for in no wise would {Tinwelint}[Thingol] suffer {or him or those of} the Nauglath to depart to Nogrod with or without {that}[any] portion of the unwrought gold that yet remained, and he said: ‘How shall it be thought that after the weariness of your{ burdened} journeys hither I should let you so soon be gone, to noise the lack of courtesy of {Tinwelint}[Thingol] abroad in Nogrod? Stay now awhile and rest and feast, and afterward shall ye have the gold that remains to work your pleasure on; nor shall aught of help that I or my folk may afford be wanting in your labour, and a reward rich and more than just awaits you at the end.’>

§28a (§7) RD-EX-36 <TN Being therefore without counsel they bowed before the king, and the faces of the Dwarf-folk show seldom what they think. Now after a time of rest was that{ last} smithying begun in a deep place of {Tinwelint}[Thingol]'s abode which he caused to be set apart for their uses{, and what their hearts lacked therein fear supplied, and in all that work Ufedhin had a mighty part}.>RD-EX-36.5<TN Then again did {Tinwelint}[Thingol] doubt {Ufedhin's}[their] purpose, yet did he yield the {boon}[jewel], an they would suffer him to be present at that smithying.>
RD-EX-42 "Nargothrim" is not attested as fare as I can see. We should change "gold of the Rodothlim" here to "gold of Glaurung".

All not commented changes and corrcetions are taken up for the next version.

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Findegil

Last edited by Findegil; 12-20-2004 at 06:26 AM. Reason: Corrected missing end-of-quote-mark.
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Old 12-19-2004, 06:22 PM   #11
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Survive what? We have at least let them survive the meeting in Menegroth so I don't see why you are not happy with the fate of Ufedhin used for the outlaws. In TN he was a example of one that was not killed by the cruse but was effected by it, so I found it fit. But as Maedhros said if you have a better replacment, I would be happy to read it.
I was under the impression that we were going to be as ambiguous as possible about the outlaws' fate - even to the point of allowing the possibility that they fell into quarrels and slew each other after departing Menegroth (though of course we could never state speculation like that). If we now ascribe Ufedhin's fate of nothing worse than a tortured heart to them, we are saying that they came to no harm after leaving Menegroth. It's a minor point - but in any case, I don't see a need or pressing reason to include the clause.

RD-EX-21

Yes, the Narn is what I meant by "Turin chapter". I suppose it is a bit long to be called a "chapter".

But is "Wanderings" part of it? After TN, every version of the Turin story ends with the disaster in Brethil and the memorial stone. There also ends NE the latter half of the Narn, and I see no indication in XI that "Wanderings" was considered an extension of the Narn. I am inclined to agree with Christopher that "Wanderings" was intended as the beginning of a full tale of the Ruin of Doriath.

RD-EX-28

Quote:
§24a (§3) RD-EX-28<TN Now as he gazed {Tinwelint}[Thingol] said: ‘How glorious is this treasure! And I have not a tithe {thereof, and} of the gems of Valinor {none save}[other then] that Silmaril that Beren won from {Angamandi}[Angband].’ But {Gwenniel}[Melian] who stood by said: ‘And that were worth all that here lies, were it thrice as great.’>
I'm afraid I don't think this works, if I'm reading it correctly. Why should Thingol say that he doesn't have a tithe of the gems of Valinor? It makes him sound like he's lamenting the fact that the Noldor have not turned over a large enough portion of their treasuries to him. Also, the "other than that Silmaril . . ." makes no sense in such a context.

RD-EX-37

I still think it would be safer not to make any statement to the effect that the sword was more glorious than any that Thingol had seen. It certainly does seem possible - even probable, perhaps - that this is true (at least in the sense of "more beautiful"), but in view of the later conception of Thingol, I think that the possibility that the statement is contradicted is sufficient to force us to leave it out.

RD-EX-40

Again, I'm afraid I still prefer my suggestion. The problem is that we are trying to combine two contradictory stories:

1. Thingol, thinking of the treasure of Glaurung and of the Silmaril, summons the Dwarves to fashion the treasure and to make of it a necklace on which to hang the Silmaril.

2. Thingol summons the Dwarves to fashion the treasure and when the Dwarves show it to him, they suggest that a necklace be made for the Silmaril.

The first story is the later one, so we must follow it. But in view of this story, the element of the "second smithying" makes little sense. Why would they wait until after they had shown Thingol some of their work to start on the Nauglamir? And why would they so dramaticly declare to Thingol their intention to do exactly what he had originally bidden them do?

RD-EX-42

In TN, Tolkien sometimes calls it "the treasure of Glaurung" and sometimes the "treasure of the Rodothlim". It would be preferable to keep the distinction if possible (just as in FoG we endeavoured to retain the difference between "Noldo" and "Gnome"). We could change it to "the gold of Nargothrond" here.
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Old 12-19-2004, 08:30 PM   #12
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Another point I just noticed:

Quote:
RD-EX-22<TN Now<editorial brigde when Húrin and his Band had departed from Menegroth> came {Gwenniel}[Melian] to {Tinwelint}[Thingol] and said: ‘Touch not this gold, for my heart tells me it is trebly cursed. Cursed indeed by the dragon's breath, and cursed by RD-EX-23 {thy}[Orodreth's] lieges' blood that moistens it, and the death of those' they slew; but some more bitter and more binding ill methinks hangs over it that I may not see.’
And RD-EX-24:

Quote:
Therefore he let wash it clean of its stains of blood in clear waters, and display it before him.
In TN there has just been a battle in Thingol's halls, and the gold is literally moistened with blood. Here it looks like we are changing the references to blood so that they refer to the blood spilt at the sack of Nargothrond. But surely the blood of Orodreth and his people is not still literally upon the gold, after years of lying in the hoard of Glaurung and after being carried far by Hurin and his band. I think we must remove both elements: Melian's words concerning the blood and Thingol's washing of the gold. How then shall we report Melian's words? One option is to try to find the closest substitute possible for the second curse in Melian's list, e.g.:

Quote:
RD-EX-22<TN Now<editorial brigde when Húrin and his Band had departed from Menegroth> came {Gwenniel}[Melian] to {Tinwelint}[Thingol] and said: ‘Touch not this gold, for my heart tells me it is trebly cursed. Cursed indeed by the dragon's breath, and cursed by RD-EX-23 {thy lieges' blood that moistens it, and the death of those they slew} [the spell of Morgoth that drove Hurin hither]; but some more bitter and more binding ill methinks hangs over it that I may not see.’
But that's too big a fabrication and I can't think of anything better. Another option is:

[QUOTE]
Quote:
RD-EX-22<TN Now<editorial brigde when Húrin and his Band had departed from Menegroth> came {Gwenniel}[Melian] to {Tinwelint}[Thingol] and said: ‘Touch not this gold, for my heart tells me it is {trebly} [doubly] cursed. Cursed indeed by the dragon's breath, and cursed by RD-EX-23 {thy lieges' blood that moistens it, and the death of those they slew}; but some more bitter and more binding ill methinks hangs over it that I may not see.’
In RD-EX-24 I think we can simply use:

Quote:
Therefore he let {wash it clean of its stains of blood in clear waters, and} display it before him.
Another point that I had noticed but forgot to mention: in §24b we say that Thingol summoned "the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost". This is the story in Q30, replacing that in TN that only the Dwarves of Nogrod were involved. But it is said in "Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn" that only the Dwarves of Nogrod were involved - so we should delete Belegost here.

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Old 12-19-2004, 08:36 PM   #13
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And another thing . . .

I wonder about using this:

Quote:
RD-EX-25 <TN Cups and goblets did the king behold, and some had double bowls or curious handles interlaced, and horns there were of strange shape, dishes and trenchers, flagons and ewers, and all appurtenances of a kingly feast. Candlesticks there were and sconces for the torches, and none might count the rings and armlets, the bracelets and collars, and the coronets of gold; and all these were{ so} subtly made>
If I remember correctly, this is in TN a description of the gold after it has been fashioned by the Dwarves. It might be a suitable description of the treasure in its original state, but then again it might not. I would rather not add this merely for the sake of more vivid description.
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Old 12-20-2004, 06:23 AM   #14
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RD-SL-10: So you think the § should simply read:
Quote:
§20 (§291) RD-SL-09<TN Now were the Elves of the wood in turn displeased, who long had stood nigh gazing on the gold; but the wild folk[ among Húrin’s band] did as they were bid, and <editorial bridge all his men departed,> RD-SL-10<TN and none may say what was {his}their unhappy weird thereafter{; and little but a tortured heart got he from the Gold of Glorund}.>
I wonder if Maedhros will agree to that, but for me it is okay.

RD-EX-21: I at last would find it utterly starnge if the youth and upgrwoing of Húrin is told in the Narn but not the final end of the tragedy in which he still played a major part. In addition a chapter called the "Ruin of Doriath" that goes for half of its lenght through the ruin of Brethil will not work for me. If WH is not included in the Narn (however we would indicat that at all) then I think it must be still seperated from the "Ruin of Doriath" or better "Nauglamír". The insertion of the chapter heading was the point were I think the chapterbreak has to be.

RD-EX-28: The problem is, that when we remove the Silmaril from Thingols speech we must add something in Melains repley. In view of Thingol being over-concerned with the Silmaril, I don't think that Melian would have remebered him about it. It is much more naturall that Thingol him self make the comparision. What about are more radical editing:
Quote:
§24a (§3) RD-EX-28<TN Now as he gazed {Tinwelint}[Thingol] said: ‘How glorious is this treasure! And I have {not a tithe thereof, and of the gems of Valinor none}[nothing to compare with it] save that Silmaril that Beren won from {Angamandi}[Angband].’ But {Gwenniel}[Melian] who stood by said: ‘And that were worth all that here lies, were it thrice as great.’>
RD-EX-37: Okay, if you think the superlativ most go then we change the passage to:
Quote:
§28c (§8) RD-EX-37<TN A golden crown they made for {Tinwelint}[Thingol], who yet had worn nought but a wreath of scarlet leaves, and a helm too most glorious they fashioned; and a sword of {dwarfen}[dwarven] steel brought from afar was hilted with bright gold and damascened in gold and silver with strange figurings wherein was pictured clear the wolf-hunt of {Karkaras Knife-fang, father of} [Carcharoth, the Red Maw greatest of all] wolves. RD-EX-38{ That was a more wonderful sword than any Tinwelint had seen before, and outshone the sword in Ufedhin's belt the king had coveted. These things wereof Ufedhin's cunning, but} And the Dwarves made a coat of linked mail of steel and gold for {Tinwelint}[Thingol], and a belt of gold. ...
RD-EX-40: I think you misunderstood my attemp in the last post. I have abondend the second smithying, following your suggestion. What I tried was to hold the discription of the dwarves. It was given as to indicat what they wanted to do, but I changed it to discreib what they had done before they present the result. The addition of RD-EX-36.5 is not really needed, or it can be change. I wanted it in the text because I find the detail that Thingol was at the smithying should be mentioned. Christopher Tolkien used it in Sil77 and I think we should respect these at least were it does not contradict our understanding of the storyline.

RD-EX-42: Agreed.

RD-EX-22 & RD-EX-24: Agreed in principal, but you do not think that the treasure was clean when Húrin brought it out of the dragon hoard. Thus I think we can hold the washing of the treasure, now with the meaning that the Dragons stench was removed. The cruse by the blood we can simply remove:
Quote:
§22 (§1) RD-EX-22<TN Now<editorial brigde when Húrin and his Band had departed from Menegroth> came {Gwenniel}[Melian] to {Tinwelint}[Thingol] and said: ‘Touch not this gold, for my heart tells me it is trebly cursed. Cursed indeed by the dragon's breath RD-EX-23 {, and cursed by thy lieges blood that moistens it, and the death of those they slew}; but some more bitter and more binding ill methinks hangs over it that I may not see.’

§23 (§2) RD-EX-24 TN Then, remembering the wisdom of {Gwenniel}[Melian] his wife, the king was minded to hearken , and he bade gather it up and cast it into the stream before the gates. Yet even so he might not shake off its spell, and he said to himself: ‘First will I gaze my last upon its loveliness ere I fling it from me for ever.’ Therefore he let wash it clean of its stains{ of blood} in clear waters, and display it before him. ...
§24b The summon to Belegost: Why should be the summon of Thingol restriced to Nogrod? Thingol called for best Smith the dwarven nations had and the Belegost dwarves left it for Smith of Nogrod. (For what ever reason, maybe they had have the last contract and it was simply this time the turne of Nogrod or they recongised that the smith of Nogord were beter for the special order Thingol had placed.) I don't see a forcing reason to skip the summon to both cities. We do restrict the answer to it on the Nogrod-dwarfes and that is sufficient for our purpose.

RD-EX-25 You remeber correctly this is the discription of the hoard after it was fashioned by the dwarves in TN. My reason to put it in was to compensat for the lake of discription the treassure other wise would get in our version. The hoard has a central part in the narative. Its overhelming beauty did even effect even Thingol the magnificant King of Beleriand (and that without someone to urge him, as it was needed for Tinwelint the simple and poor Woodlandking). For this the discription as given at the scene in TN is to scanty. The discription is in a way ambigious. If you root a big and rich kingdom like Nargothrond you will find such things. So I do not see why it can not be used here, with the given reason.

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Old 12-20-2004, 04:31 PM   #15
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RD-EX-21

Findegil wrote:
Quote:
I at last would find it utterly starnge if the youth and upgrwoing of Húrin is told in the Narn but not the final end of the tragedy in which he still played a major part.
The "final tragedy" of the Narn is the death of Turin and Nienor. This, at any rate, is the way Tolkien divided things up in every post-LT re-telling.

Quote:
In addition a chapter called the "Ruin of Doriath" that goes for half of its lenght through the ruin of Brethil will not work for me.
I can but repeat my mantra: no matter what we do, there are huge problems of scale in the later portions of the Silmarillion, at least if one views things from a literary perspective. I don't think that we should strive to 'fix' things through clever chapter breaks, since our goal is not a literary work but rather a simple account of 'canonical' (in the sense defined by our principles) events.

RD-EX-28

Ah, I do see the problem there now. I like your suggestion, though it is a 'risky' emendation. I will think about this and see if I can come up with anything better.

RD-EX-40

I did misunderstand. But the passage is still not quite perfect. First of all this sentence needs some tense changes:

Quote:
And he said: ‘Yea’; but {Ufedhin}[they] said: ‘Know then that great store of thy best and purest gold{ remaineth still, for }[did]we have husbanded{ it}, {having a boon to ask of thee, and it is this: we would}[to] make thee a carcanet and to its making lay all the skill and cunning that we have, and we desire that this should be the most marvellous ornament that the Earth has seen, and the greatest of the works of Elves and Dwarves.
I would suggest:

Quote:
And he said: ‘Yea’; but {Ufedhin}[they] said: ‘Know then that great store of thy best and purest gold {remaineth still, for }[did] we {have} husband{ed it}, {having a boon to ask of thee, and it is this: we would}[to] make thee a carcanet and to its making lay all the skill and cunning that we have, and we desire[d] that this should be the most marvellous ornament that the Earth has seen, and the greatest of the works of Elves and Dwarves.
The following sentence:
Quote:
Therefore we {beg of thee to let us have}[took from thee] that Silmaril that thou treasurest, that it may shine wondrously amid the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír], the Necklace of the Dwarves.’>
. . . may not work because they are telling Thingol that they took from him that which he had already given them. I can see that one could look at it as a sort of recapitulation to Thingol of that which he already knew. But it reads awkwardly. It still sounds on the whole as though the Dwarves are claiming the making of the Nauglamir as their own idea.

I'm really not sure whether there's a problem with the paragraph or I'm reading too deeply into it.

As for RD-EX-36.5 - it does seem a bit odd to have Thingol doubt their purpose and only reluctantly give them the jewel now. I suppose we ought to delete this.

RD-EX-22 and RD-EX-24

Okay, I suppose it makes sense for him still to wash it of its stains. But to remove the curse of the blood from Melian's words we would need to do as I suggested and change 'trebly' to 'doubly':

Quote:
RD-EX-22<TN Now<editorial brigde when Húrin and his Band had departed from Menegroth> came {Gwenniel}[Melian] to {Tinwelint}[Thingol] and said: ‘Touch not this gold, for my heart tells me it is {trebly} [doubly] cursed. Cursed indeed by the dragon's breath, and cursed by RD-EX-23 {thy lieges' blood that moistens it, and the death of those they slew}; but some more bitter and more binding ill methinks hangs over it that I may not see.’
Quote:
§24b The summon to Belegost: Why should be the summon of Thingol restriced to Nogrod? Thingol called for best Smith the dwarven nations had and the Belegost dwarves left it for Smith of Nogrod. (For what ever reason, maybe they had have the last contract and it was simply this time the turne of Nogrod or they recongised that the smith of Nogord were beter for the special order Thingol had placed.) I don't see a forcing reason to skip the summon to both cities. We do restrict the answer to it on the Nogrod-dwarfes and that is sufficient for our purpose.
If I remember correctly, in TN only the Dwarves of Nogrod are summoned, and only they are involved in the quarrel. In Q30, the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost are summoned, and both groups are involved in the quarrel.

So in every version we have, the Dwarves that are involved in the quarrel are the same as the Dwarves that are summoned. There is no indication that any of the Dwarves summoned would not have accepted Thingol's offer (why should they?), so I think that the statement that only the Dwarves of Nogrod were involved should be taken to imply that only they were summoned to work for Thingol.

RD-EX-25

I'm inclined not to use this description because we are putting it in a different context from that for which it was written. It was intended to describe the work of the Dwarves, not the original hoard. Now, the original hoard has changed somewhat. But I don't think that means that we can apply description to it that wasn't meant for it.
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Old 12-20-2004, 09:19 PM   #16
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I wonder if Maedhros will agree to that, but for me it is okay.
I'm ok with this.

Quote:
I can but repeat my mantra: no matter what we do, there are huge problems of scale in the later portions of the Silmarillion, at least if one views things from a literary perspective. I don't think that we should strive to 'fix' things through clever chapter breaks, since our goal is not a literary work but rather a simple account of 'canonical' (in the sense defined by our principles) events.
As I have said before, I see nothing wrong with the subtitle of the Necklace here. I would add the subtittle and not a different chapter break.

Quote:
As for RD-EX-36.5 - it does seem a bit odd to have Thingol doubt their purpose and only reluctantly give them the jewel now. I suppose we ought to delete this.
Where is RD-EX-36.5?

Quote:
RD-EX-22 and RD-EX-24

Okay, I suppose it makes sense for him still to wash it of its stains. But to remove the curse of the blood from Melian's words we would need to do as I suggested and change 'trebly' to 'doubly':
Yes, this is absolutely necessary.

Quote:
So in every version we have, the Dwarves that are involved in the quarrel are the same as the Dwarves that are summoned. There is no indication that any of the Dwarves summoned would not have accepted Thingol's offer (why should they?), so I think that the statement that only the Dwarves of Nogrod were involved should be taken to imply that only they were summoned to work for Thingol.
One could make the point that if both houses of dwarves were summoned, why would only one come to Menegroth? I think it is best to have Thingol only summon one house.

Quote:
I'm inclined not to use this description because we are putting it in a different context from that for which it was written. It was intended to describe the work of the Dwarves, not the original hoard. Now, the original hoard has changed somewhat. But I don't think that means that we can apply description to it that wasn't meant for it.
It is a shame to loose the description but I think that Aiwendil is correct.
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Old 12-21-2004, 08:33 AM   #17
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RD-EX-21: I after I have read the note about the Númenórean tradition of the ‘Great Tales’, I have to agree that WH is not necessarily a part of the Narn i Chîn Húrin, but it is clearly a part of Narn e·mbar Hador. Considering this I would suggest the following chapter structure for later part of the ‘Translation from the Elvish’ (‘Great Tales’ are bold and underlined and there content are marked by quote boxes; chapter headlines are bold, subchapters are italic and section headings are in normal script, mark that especially in the beginning of our work not all chapters are part of a ‘Great Tale’, question marks are added where headings are uncertain or need discussion later on):

Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin
Narn Beren ion Barahir or Narn e·Dinúviel
Quote:
The Lay of Leithian
Of Thingol in Doriath
Of Lúthien the Beloved
Of Dairon Minstrel of Thingol
Of Morgoth & the Snaring of Gorlim
Of the Saving of King Finrod Felagund by the XII Beorings
Of Tarn Aeluin the Blesses
Of Gorlim Unhappy
Of Beren Son of Barahir & his Escape
Of the Coming of Beren to Doriath; but first is told of the Meeting of Melian and Thingol
Beren's meeting with Lúthien
Beren before Thingol
Luthien's captivity in Doriath
Beren in Nargothrond
Beren and Felagund before Sauron
Lúthien in Nargothrond
The defeat of Sauron
The attack by Celegorm and Curufin
The disguising of Beren and Lúthien and the journey to Angband
Fingolfin and Morgoth; the meeting with Carcharoth
Beren and Luthien in Angband
Escape from Angband
?The Hunt for Lúthien and the Loss of Dairon?
?The Home-coming of Beren and Lúthien?
?The Wolf-hunt?
?The Recall of Beren?
Narn e·mbar Hador
Quote:
Narn i Chîn Húrin or Narn e·’Rach Morgoth
The Childhood of Túrin
?Of the Fifth Battle: Nirnaeth Arnoediad?
The Words of Húrin and Morgoth
The Departure of Túrin
Túrin in Doriath
Túrin among the Outlaws
Of Mîm the Dwarf
?Of Dor-Cúrathol, the Land of Bow and Helm?
?Of Túrins Rescue by Beleg?
?Túrin in Nargothrond?
The Return of Túrin to Dor-Lómin
The coming of Túrin into Brethil
The Journey of Morwen and Nienor to Nargothrond
Nienor in Brethil
The Coming of Glaurung
The Death of Glaurung
The Death of Túrin

Of the Ruin of Doriath
The Wanderings of Húrin
The Nauglamír Necklace of the Dwarves, ‘Sigil Elu-neath’ Necklace of the Woe of Thingol

Narn en·Êl or Narn e·Dant Gondolin ar Orthad en·Êl
Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin
Of the Voyage of Eärendil and the War of Wrath

Of the Great Battle and the War of Wrath
Of the Last End of the Oath of Fëanor and his Sons
Of the Passing of the Elves
The Second Prophecy of Mandos
Is that a structure we all can go with?

RD-EX-40: Agreed so fare. (But is “did we have husbanded” grammatically correct?) What if we change the second part like this, to let it sound more like Thingol’s own idea:
Quote:
§28d (§9) … RD-EX-40<TN Now when all was done and their smithcraft given to the king, then said {Ufedhin}[the Dwarves]: ‘O {Tinwelint}[Thingol], richest of kings, dost thou think these things fair?’ And he said: ‘Yea’; but {Ufedhin}[they] said: ‘Know then that great store of thy best and purest gold{ remaineth still, for}[did] we have husbanded{ it}, {having a boon to ask of thee, and it is this: we would}[to] make thee {a}[the] carcanet and to its making lay all the skill and cunning that we have, and we desire that this should be the most marvellous ornament that the Earth has seen, and the greatest of the works of Elves and Dwarves. Therefore {we}[you] beg {of thee to let} us{ have}[to take] that Silmaril that thou treasurest, that it may shine wondrously amid the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír], the Necklace of the Dwarves.’>
RD-EX-36.5: Maédhros, you will find that addition in post #10. But since Aiwendil is not happy with it, read first my new suggestion which follows.
Posted by Aiwendil:
Quote:
As for RD-EX-36.5 - it does seem a bit odd to have Thingol doubt their purpose and only reluctantly give them the jewel now. I suppose we ought to delete this.
But can you understand my reason for clinging to the passage? If so, here it might be one of the few places were the text of Sil77 might be helpful:
Quote:
§28a (§7) RD-EX-36 <TN Being therefore without counsel they bowed before the king, and the faces of the Dwarf-folk show seldom what they think. Now after a time of rest was that{ last} smithying begun in a deep place of {Tinwelint}[Thingol]'s abode which he caused to be set apart for their uses{, and what their hearts lacked therein fear supplied, and in all that work Ufedhin had a mighty part}.> RD-EX-36.5 <Sil77 Long was their labour; and Thingol went down alone to their deep smithies, and sat ever among them as they worked{.}><editorial addition on the necklace.>
RD-EX-22 and RD-EX-24
Sorry I left out “trebly” -> “doubly”. But your passage has an editing problem since you left “, and cursed by” stand which must be deleted. But I think that is not more than a slip of the pen. We seem to be in agreement with the content.

§24b The summon to Belegost: Your argumentations is good, I agree, we will skip the summon to Belegost.

RD-EX-25: If you both think it must go then we will skip the description.

It seems there is not overmuch left. I wonder that we found an agreement in RD-SL-10 so easy.

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Old 12-21-2004, 07:19 PM   #18
Aiwendil
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About chapters: this is a general question and not one that need be answered here.

The main headings at least seem all right to me. But some of the proposed subheadings will be quite long and others quite short. It seems odd to me to prefer this because making the Great Tales "chapters" would result in disproportionality.

RD-EX-40

Quote:
But is “did we have husbanded” grammatically correct?
No. That's why I suggested "did we husband" - as it really must be.

The second part of this still doesn't quite work:

Quote:
and we desire that this should be the most marvellous ornament that the Earth has seen, and the greatest of the works of Elves and Dwarves. Therefore {we}[you] beg {of thee to let} us{ have}[to take] that Silmaril that thou treasurest, that it may shine wondrously amid the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír], the Necklace of the Dwarves.’>
The 'therefore' isn't logical anymore. Also, the Dwarves' last sentence has little point and sounds strange.

I think there is a real danger in getting into very detailed alterations to individual sentences like this. It becomes very difficult to say for sure what is satisfactory and what is not. This passage has a certain function in the context of the original tale - the Dwarves are here asking, with guile, that Thingol yield the Silmaril to them so that they can make the Nauglafring. We have altered that context completely - now it is not an act of guile at all, and indeed Thingol has already given them the Silmaril, and he's done it of his own accord. To try at all costs to retain the passage, even in the new and very different context, by changing it's whole purport seems a dubious proposition to me. That's why I am inclined to err on the side of deleting rather than changing. My first choice, to be honest, would still be to replace the whole passage with a simple statement that they brought forth the Nauglamir.

RD-EX-36.5

Quote:
But can you understand my reason for clinging to the passage? If so, here it might be one of the few places were the text of Sil77 might be helpful
This emendation does seem to work, and I suppose I can live with the '77 here.

RD-EX-22 and RD-EX-24

Ah, yes - I did accidentally not delete 'and curse by'.

RD-SL-10: I am in agreement with Findegil's last proposal here.
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Old 12-22-2004, 04:45 AM   #19
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RD-EX-40 Okay, then we skip the last sentence leading to the following §:
Quote:
§28d (§9) RD-EX-39 <TN Now {come}[came] the Dwarves{ nonetheless over the bridge and} before the chair of {Tinwelint}[Thingol], and behold, the things of their workmanship they had conveyed thither in silken cloths, and boxes of rare woods carven cunningly. In other wise had {Úrin}[Húrin] haled the treasure thither{, and half thereof lay yet} in his rude sacks and clumsy chests}; yet when the gold was once more revealed, then did a cry of wonder arise, for the things the {Nauglath}[Naugrim] had made were more wondrous>. RD-EX-40<TN Now when all was done and their smithcraft given to the king, then said {Ufedhin}[the Dwarves]: ‘O {Tinwelint}[Thingol], richest of kings, dost thou think these things fair?’ And he said: ‘Yea’; but {Ufedhin}[they] said: ‘Know then that great store of thy best and purest gold {remaineth still, for} we {have husbanded it}[did husband], {having a boon to ask of thee, and it is this: we would}[to] make thee a carcanet and to its making lay all the skill and cunning that we have, and we {desire}[desired] that this should be the most marvellous ornament that the Earth has seen, and the greatest of the works of Elves and Dwarves.{ Therefore we beg of thee to let us have that Silmaril that thou treasurest, that it may shine wondrously amid the Nauglafring, the Necklace of the Dwarves.}’>
As for the chapters: Yes it is a general question that we need not to answer now and here. I will for now leave the (sub-)heading called RD-EX-21 in the text and we can later skip if it doesn't sweet our chapter structure any longer.

As fare as I can see, we are done with this section.

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Old 12-22-2004, 04:11 PM   #20
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RD-EX-40

I just realized that in my haste I've been continually misreading this:

Quote:
Know then that great store of thy best and purest gold{ remaineth still, for}[did] we have husbanded{ it},
It is not grammatic incorrect. However, I would still use my version. This version ("did we have husbanded") changes the grammatical structure. In the original, "husband" is the main verb and "have" is just an auxiliary verb used to indicate the perfect tense. A straight conversion to past tense would be "did we husband" or "we husbanded". A change to "did we have husbanded" makes "have" the primary verb and "husbanded" an appositive participle.

A somewhat obscure point, but I think we should go with "did we husband".

Other than that, I think there are no further issues with this section. I will give the next one a look when I get a chance.
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Old 12-23-2004, 03:41 AM   #21
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It seems in such matters I am of little use. So is it okay to use "we did husband" instatt of "did we husband"? Or should I change the text given in post #19?

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