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Old 04-24-2001, 06:19 AM   #1
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I've just finished reading the thread on the Parentage of Orodreth and Erenion/Gil-galad. I have a question which you guys will proberly find easy, still here goes.
In the Tread it is said that Celebrimbor &quot;had affection for Finrod (and his wife, of whom Im not conserned in this question) in Nargothrond... hmmm this goes well with the story of Celebrimbor being the son of Curufin, staying in N after his Father was cast out. But it doesn't go good with the Essay of the Elessar where Celebrimbor is said to be a Noldorin elf of Gondolin.

Which of these to stories is dated latest?
If Celebrimbor was from Gondolin he wouldn't be of Fëanorian Line, but proberly neither of a Descentent close enough to Turgon to claim the title of High King??

Can anybody clarify?

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Old 04-25-2001, 08:48 AM   #2
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Re: Celebrimbor

I believe Celebrimbor as a Grandson to Feanor, living in Nargothrond is both the later and more &quot;complete&quot; version, if you will.

The Elessar essay has him making both Elessars, one in Gondolin and the second in Eregion. Since he was in Nargothrond in the First Age, as mentioned also in the published Silmarillion, he must have made the first Elessar there. That is the only way I can reconcile the two ideas.

Celebrimbor as a Gondolin inhabitant doesn't make sense when you consider his parentage of course. You could however also say that it was indeed Enerdhil who made the first Elessar in Gondolin and have Celebrimbor make the second one, as is said in the Elessar essay itself. You would then, have to exclude, Tolkien's later note that there is no Enerdhil and Celebrimbor made them both.

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Old 04-25-2001, 11:17 AM   #3
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Re: Celebrimbor

Considering the statement in LotR that Celebrimbor was a Feanorian, and that in RGEO that Galadriel was among the rebel Noldor, we cannot accept the Amanian Telerin story of Celebrimbor; nor can we accept that he was of the Gondolodrim. In this case, we cannot follow Tolkien's latest ideas because of insoluble contradictions with his published works. I see no reason to assume that Celebrimbor made the first Elessar in Nargothrond: how then would it have come to Idril and Earendil? I think the only solution is to go back to the story that the first was made by Enerdhil in Gondolin.

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Old 04-25-2001, 11:16 PM   #4
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Re: Celebrimbor

You both make perfekt sence - But Aiwendil, you make a very good point that I did not think of; the problem with getting the stone to Idril &amp; Co.
Taking that into consideration I actually like the version of only one Elessar made by Enerdhil in Gondolin, and then Gandalf bringing it back to Galadriel as a token of the good will of the Valar.

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Old 04-26-2001, 01:57 AM   #5
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.....

I didn't think of that. It had to be given to her yes, so you would only have to change my creation in Nargothrond to creation in Gondolin <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

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Old 04-26-2001, 03:31 AM   #6
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Re: .....

But if Celebrimbor is from Gondolin and made it there, if I understand you correct :-) - then how can he be a grandson of Feänor???

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Old 04-26-2001, 03:45 AM   #7
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Re: .....

When I think about it only two posibilities fit:
1: Enerdhil made the first and only Elessar in Gondolin, it passed over the Sea and was brought back to Galadriel by Gandalf.

2: Enerdhil made the first Elessar in Gondolin, it passed over the Sea. The second Ellesar was made around SA 1000 in Eregion by Celebrimbor. Givin to Galadriel as a gift.

The two explainations above hold up with Celecrimbor being a grandson of Feänor. If you want to hold that both or at least the first Elessar was made by Celebrimbor, then you must also I think abandon teh thought that he is of Feänorian descent.

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Old 04-26-2001, 06:50 AM   #8
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Re: .....

That was my point Telchar <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

The first one would have to made by Enerdhil, as I stated in my first post, made in Gondolin. The second made by Celembrimbor in the land of Eregion.

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Old 04-26-2001, 05:10 PM   #9
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Re: .....

I suggest that it be left ambiguous whether there was really a second Elessar or if it was merely the first returned. JRRT seems to imply in UT that the people of Middle-earth didn't know which was true; though I suppose there are things they wouldn't know, but the reader should. However, in this case it might be important to maintain a distinction between two contradictory stories by Tolkien - in which case we have to sort out which one to use - and two contradictory stories among the loremasters who wrote the tales - in which case the ambiguity is embedded, and can be retained.

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Old 05-28-2001, 03:22 PM   #10
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Re: Re: .....

I see no reason why Celebrimbor might not have been in Gondolin following the Sack of Nargothrond, unless there is some unrecalled text telling of his whereabouts elsewhere.

We know that some Elves of Nargothrond were taken captive by the sacking army and presumbably made prisoners of Morgoth. But others apparently fled to Doriath. That some sought out the Hidden City is reasonable. Surely at least Celebrimbor should not be thought of as dwelling with his father and the other Fëanorians during their final grim deeds.

The first line of The Elessar need only be changed to &quot;There was in Gondolin a jewel-smith named Celebrimbor of Nargothrond, son of Curufin son of Fëanor, the greatest of that craft among the Noldor after the death of Fëanor.&quot; Later occurrences of &quot;Enerdhil&quot; can be changed to &quot;Celebrimbor&quot; in the account of the first Elessar and the first account of the second Elessar (if it is to be preserved as a variant). For the second account of the second Elessar I suggest emendation of the passage as follows, using italics to indicate words to be removed, and words in square brackets to indicate changes of names:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> And Celebrimbor said: 'Where now is the Stone of Eärendil? And Enerdhil who made it is gone.' ' They have passed over Sea,' said Galadriel, 'with almost all fair things else. But must then Middle-earth fade and perish for ever?'
****'This is its fate, I deem,' said Celebrimbor. 'But you know that I love you (though you turned to Celeborn of the Trees), and for that love I will do what I can, if haply by my art your grief can be lessened.' But he did not say to Galadriel that he himself was of Gondolin long ago, and a friend of Enerdhil, though his friend in most things outrivalled him. Yet if Enerdhil had not been then Celebrimbor would have been more renowned. Therefore he took thought and began a long and delicate labour, and so for Galadriel he made the greatest of his works (save the Three Rings only). And it is said that more subtle and clear was the green gem that he made than that of Enerdhil [Eärendil], but yet its light had less power. For whereas that of Enerdhil [Eärendil] was lit by the Sun in its youth, already many years had passed ere Celebrimbor began his work, and nowhere in Middle-earth was the light as clear as it had been, for though Morgoth had been thrust out into the Void and could not enter again, his far shadow lay upon it.<hr></blockquote>










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Old 06-18-2017, 10:21 PM   #11
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Re: Re: .....

I see no reason why Celebrimbor might not have been in Gondolin following the Sack of Nargothrond, unless there is some unrecalled text telling of his whereabouts elsewhere.

We know that some Elves of Nargothrond were taken captive by the sacking army and presumbably made prisoners of Morgoth. But others apparently fled to Doriath. That some sought out the Hidden City is reasonable. Surely at least Celebrimbor should not be thought of as dwelling with his father and the other Fëanorians during their final grim deeds.

The first line of The Elessar need only be changed to &quot;There was in Gondolin a jewel-smith named Celebrimbor of Nargothrond, son of Curufin son of Fëanor, the greatest of that craft among the Noldor after the death of Fëanor.&quot; Later occurrences of &quot;Enerdhil&quot; can be changed to &quot;Celebrimbor&quot; in the account of the first Elessar and the first account of the second Elessar (if it is to be preserved as a variant). For the second account of the second Elessar I suggest emendation of the passage as follows, using italics to indicate words to be removed, and words in square brackets to indicate changes of names:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> And Celebrimbor said: 'Where now is the Stone of Eärendil? And Enerdhil who made it is gone.' ' They have passed over Sea,' said Galadriel, 'with almost all fair things else. But must then Middle-earth fade and perish for ever?'
****'This is its fate, I deem,' said Celebrimbor. 'But you know that I love you (though you turned to Celeborn of the Trees), and for that love I will do what I can, if haply by my art your grief can be lessened.' But he did not say to Galadriel that he himself was of Gondolin long ago, and a friend of Enerdhil, though his friend in most things outrivalled him. Yet if Enerdhil had not been then Celebrimbor would have been more renowned. Therefore he took thought and began a long and delicate labour, and so for Galadriel he made the greatest of his works (save the Three Rings only). And it is said that more subtle and clear was the green gem that he made than that of Enerdhil [Eärendil], but yet its light had less power. For whereas that of Enerdhil [Eärendil] was lit by the Sun in its youth, already many years had passed ere Celebrimbor began his work, and nowhere in Middle-earth was the light as clear as it had been, for though Morgoth had been thrust out into the Void and could not enter again, his far shadow lay upon it.<hr></blockquote></p>

This best recounts something about Celebrimbor and Galadriel that has roots with the Kinslaying and Galadriel being "...unfriends with Feanor forever...". It was an important theme that Galadriel was not seduced by Celebrimbor, during Annatar's presence in Eregion. We know as well that Cirdan was wary of Annatar, which naturally allies itself to Galadriel's rebuffing of Celebrimbor's advance. She must have sensed something of wrong in Annatar's relationship with Celebrimbor, and the innate mistrust from knowing the Curse of Mandos as an affliction upon the Sons of Feanor.

That's provided as context.

About the two stories of the Elessar we can never be really sure that those were about Tolkien and his latter emendations as he produced his mythology. However, given the context cited above I find it supports the supposition that there is very little chance, if any at all that Celebrimbor would have any presence in Gondolin.

He was the grandson of Feanor and with a parentage in the 7 sons, I doubt Turgon would pleasantly receive him, especially given Fingolfin's march through the Heclaraxe and their alienation from Feanor (for which Fingolfin went some way to reverse, however, Turgon was very xenophobic, and he threw Eol off the cliffs nigh his city for the death of Aredhel).

So, (if) two green stones ever existed with Celebrimbor's the second (and I'm not sure about this--because it's weird to imagine an Istari bearing the green stone back from Aman), which is how theories of 'the return stone' come about. [though there is a tantalising supposition it *might* have occurred, in a famous short text about Galadriel and Olorin possibly meeting nigh Amon Lanc in southern Mirkwood].


Quote:
"It is not so," said Olorin. "Their eyes are not dimmed nor their hearts hardened. In token of which look upon this!"
*** And he held before her the Elessar, and she looked on it and wondered.
*** And Olorin said, "This I bring to you from Yavanna. Use it as you may, and for a while you shall make the land of your dwelling the fairest place in Middle-earth. But it is not for you to possess. You shall hand it on when the time comes. For before you grow weary, and at last forsake Middle-earth one shall come who is to receive it, and his name shall be that of the stone; Elessar he shall be called."
I find it easier to accept that Celebrimbor made it as a courtship token for Galadriel in the Second Age, which is how she came to be in possession of it. Because of the alienation between Galadriel and Feanor's house, seems also a way for her to distance herself from Celebrimbor, even in death -- ridding herself of the nuisance stalker she must have found Feanor and his offspring.
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Old 05-28-2001, 11:46 PM   #12
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Re: Re: .....

I think this basicly ruin the thought of Gondolin as a hidden city. Why should Celebrimbor be able to find Gondolin when there is no history of anybody else haven found the way without being lead???

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Old 06-03-2001, 06:24 PM   #13
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Re: Other Elessar reconstructions

If it is to be accepted that Celebrimbor was in Gondolin when he made the first Elessar, it makes no difference how he came there. But I agree it is unlikely he found it on his own and more likely he was led. To speculate more would be fan fiction.

It would also be possible to place the making of the Elessar in Nargothrond, as has been suggested, and then the giving of it to Idril would occur while Turgon still dwelt at Vinyamar.

Why give it to Indril?

Suddenly (in fan fiction mode) one sees Celebrimbor as doubly unlucky in love. His first love, Idril, vanishes with her father and their people to a hidden city beyond knowledge. And then later Galadriel choses Celeborn. But for each he has created an Elessar.

Another answer would be to include in the main projected Silmarillion narrative only what is beyond dispute. Here is such a patchwork, using the symbol &quot;/&quot; as a paste mark, and added words in italics, takng the account from The Elessar as found in Unfinished Tales:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> The Elessar / was / a jewel / green as leaves / within which the clear light of the sun / was / imprisoned. The Noldor marvelled at it. For it is said that those who looked through this stone saw things that were withered or burned healed again or as they were in the grace of their youth, and that the hands of one who held it brought to all that they touched healing from hurt. / Idril / wore it upon her breast; and so it was saved from the burning of Gondolin.<hr></blockquote>The story then continues exactly as in Unfinished Tales. It would be broken into two parts, one just after the birth of Elrond and Elros, and he other after the summary of Eärendil's first voyage, or the entire accout could be inserted at that place. This is all that is actually needed to provide a Slmarillion account to explain the references in The Lord of the Rings.

The full account might then appear in an appendices dealing with variant legends and traditions.

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Old 06-04-2001, 11:27 PM   #14
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Re: Other Elessar reconstructions

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> jallanite said:
If it is to be accepted that Celebrimbor was in Gondolin when he made the first Elessar, it makes no difference how he came there. But I agree it is unlikely he found it on his own and more likely he was led. To speculate more would be fan fiction.<hr></blockquote>

I personally can't accept that!

I can nowhere find any reference (beside the one consernng the Elessar) that suggest that Celebrimbor had ever been to Gondolin - I think a person of his statue would have been remembered If he had been with the company of Tuor and Idril. I think the tale is much more beliveable and logical if he was a Grandson of Fëanor that stayed in Nargothrond after his father was bannished. Fleeing to the Havens after the Sack of Nargothrond
The Alternative, I personally belive is quite unlikely: Celebrimbor fleeing from Nargothrond in FA 496 somehow getting to Gondolin, much the same time as Tuor and making the Elessar before the fall of Gondolin in FA 511. Then Escaping from the Fall without ever being mentioned in the tales of Turin or Tuor - whice both were quite extensive - Sorry, but I just don't bye it!

If you want Celebrombor to make the 1st Elessar I think you have to dismis him as a Grandson of Fëanor!

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Anar kaluva tielyanna!</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000018>Telchar</A> at: 6/5/01 1:40:15 am
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Old 06-05-2001, 07:42 AM   #15
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Re: Celebrimbor

agreed, Celebrimbor as anyone other than son of Feanor is like a little 'Myth's transformed' it destroys more than it creaes.

There is an important symmetry in Feanor creating the 3 silmarills and then his grandson creating the 3 rings.

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Old 06-05-2001, 05:25 PM   #16
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Re: Celebrimbor in Gondolin

It would of course have been no difficulty at all for Tolkien to reasonably put Celebrimbor son of Curufin in Gondolin, whether recruited by a messenger of Turgon, or going there with Turgon from Vinyamar, having taken service with him because of estrangment from his father (this estrangement now happening earlier).

But our hands are bound.

Assuming Celebrimbor's Fëanorian parentage is retained, the choices for relating the making of the Elessar are, I believe, the following:


***** A. None of the Elessar material is used.



***** B. The Elessar material is used:


*****1. It is not told by whom the first Elessar was made.
************ See an example of this in my last post.

*****2. It is told by whom the first Elessar was made:

************a. The first Elessar was made by Enerdhil of Gondolin.
***************** This account was early rejected by Tolkien, perhaps almost as written.

************b. The first Elessar was made by Celebrimbor:
***************** See example in a previous post by myself in this thread.
***** *******************i. In Gondolin
********************************* But how did this descendant of Fëanor come there?
********************************* No account survives as Celebrimbor not important to main story.
************************ii. Not specified as in Gondolin.
********************************* Remove words &quot;in Gondolin&quot; from first sentence.
*********************************A. Made before Turgon went to Vinyamar.
*************************************** Account placed shortly before Turgon leaves Vinyamar.
*************************************** Perhaps after &quot;... and it became Gondolin, the Hidden Rock.&quot;
*************************************** Include mention that Idril bore it on her breast.
*********************************B. Place undefined and time undefined.
*************************************** As a backflash when describing Idril in Gondolin.
********************************************* or
*************************************** As a backflash just before the gem is given to Eärendil.


None of the above are totally satisfactory, but ...

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Old 06-06-2001, 02:23 AM   #17
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Re: Celebrimbor

I think its simpler than that:
1: Either you drop the total exsistence of Enerdhil and make Celebrimbor a elf of Gondolin (of the house of Fingolfin/Turgon) Making the first of two Elessars in Gondolin

or 2: You go with Enerdhil making the first and maybe only Elessar

Although - as lindil states - the symmetry of Celebrimbor being a grandson of Fëanor works more beautiful. But the more I reread the passage I lean towards the idear of Celebrimbor being a elf of Gondolin (of the house of Fingolfin/Turgon).

But maybe the question should be solved the other way around - by concentrating on the parentage of Celebrimbor rather than &quot;Who made the Elessar&quot;. For instance when do you belive that Celeborn was born? In Aman or in Beleriand?


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Old 06-06-2001, 05:27 AM   #18
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Re: Celebrimbor

intriuging work jallanite- given a clear set of options I favor 2.b.ii.
remove the words in Gondolin.
Celebrimbor is stated as having been in Nargothrond and to go moving elf-princes around w/ out a nod from the prof, is unneccesary and somewhat presumptous. although I am willing in general to do a back flip w/ the texts to keep something intriguing or beautiful, it seems some part of the conflicting eleesar stories must go and the words in Gondolin are the easiest way out methinks.

again nice summary, you and Tar elenion are 2 birds of a feather it would seem.



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Old 06-06-2001, 07:09 AM   #19
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Re: Celebrimbor

I personally think this is the easy way out - It's like taking The One West - easy but not right - It does not solve the problem of how Idril got the stone... unless I have misunderstood something <img src=frown.gif ALT="">

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Old 06-06-2001, 03:09 PM   #20
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Celebrimbor

I have to disagree with this solution. Perhaps I merely fail to understand the proposed narrative - but I still don't see how the Elessar could come to Idril in this way. A) Why would it pass from a descendant of Feanor to Turgon's family? and B) When was it made? Having Celebrimbor make it and then having it later turn up in Gondolin requires its existence prior to the founding of Gondolin - and every indication from Tolkien suggests a later date for its making.

I think it's better to keep Enerdhil; of the possible solutions, it's the one that agrees best with the rest of the Legendarium.



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Old 06-06-2001, 03:12 PM   #21
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Re: Celebrimbor

If you mean, just omitting the words &quot;in Gondolin&quot; is too easy, because it leaves things vague, then I agree.

It is half-removing a difficulty. A reader then must guess whether the giving of the stone to Idril happened in Vinaymar before Idril depearted to Gondolin or whether Celebrimbor did indeed end up in Gondolin. So why not just put in Gondolin, since that's where Tolkien put him at that time? But would Tolkien have done so if Celebrimbor was a descendant of Fëanor?

Everything feels somewhat wrong, including using the discarded Enerdhil.

But since Celebrimbor is made a descendant of Fëanor in LR, he must remain so by the rules, or so I understand. And Curufin as his father is as good as anything and the only one Tolkien names. He cannot be one of the Sindar or one of the Teleri who crossed with Teleporno as in variant Tolkien accounts.

Therefore I gather you would go the Enerdhil route.

The passages from which Christopher Tolkien's Celebrimbor material in the published Quenta Silmarillion derive all appear in The Peoples of Middle-earth, chapter X, &quot;Of Dwarves and Men&quot;, Note 7. There he was born in Aman, but his unnamed mother did not accompany the Noldor into exile.

At the moment I'm thinking that removing all mention of how the stone was made may be best. It is just Idril's stone and these are its powers.

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Old 06-06-2001, 11:30 PM   #22
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Re: Celebrimbor

OK - So we know he was born in Aman, which gives him both the age and wisdom to create the stone. I think we can rule out that it was made during the time in Araman, so it had to be made in the first 100 years of the first age or more proberly (which I myself find unlikely) in the 40 years after Dagor Aglareb and the beginning if the Siege of Angband. That is the only time it could be made if it was not made IN GONDOLIN.

Celebimbor himself in Gondolin is too conflicting with the rest of the material.

My own guess is that when Tolkien wrote the last remark in the essay conserning the Elessar he had something greater in mind - Like removing Celebrimbor completely from the &quot;stained&quot; house of Fëanor. Very much like he changed his wiev on the parentage on Gil-Galad and Orodreth.

The really really easy way out is just accepting the Enerdhil-story, then you also would be able to use the sentance: &quot;In ages after there was again an Elessar, and of this two things are said,though which is true only those Wise could say who are now gone.

The Enerdhil-story in no way conflicts with the rest of the published material - as I see it.
It doesn't conflict with what we are told about Celebrimbors parentage and it doesn't raise question about how Idril got in possesion of the stone.

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Anar kaluva tielyanna!</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000018>Telchar</A> at: 6/7/01 1:33:29 am
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Old 06-07-2001, 01:52 AM   #23
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Re: Celebrimbor

Telchar posted:The really really easy way out is just accepting the
Enerdhil-story, then you also would be able to use the
sentance: &quot;In ages after there was again an Elessar, and
of this two things are said,though which is true only
those Wise could say who are now gone.

The Enerdhil-story in no way conflicts with the rest of the
published material - as I see it.
It doesn't conflict with what we are told about Celebrimbors
parentage and it doesn't raise question about how Idril got
in possesion of the stone.

Lindil: I think that due to the vast number of contradictions , discrepancies and unresolved conumdrums leaving this reference to divergent traditions in is quite appropriate. come to think of it i know of about 100 other places I could put it in the silmarillion <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> -

I def. spoke hastily re: the previous 'solution'.



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Old 06-07-2001, 02:45 AM   #24
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Re: Celebrimbor

How beautiful, that the beloved JRRT - that leaves us with so many problems, also leaves us with the backdoor open <img src=laugh.gif ALT=":lol">

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Old 06-07-2001, 05:18 PM   #25
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Re: Celebrimbor

The numerous contradictory accounts concerning the history of Galadriel not the least of which is the Elessar tale is what led me to abandon an attempt to dedicate a chapter of the Tales from Tol Eressea to Galadriel.

With respect to the Elessar and Celebrimbor, you may be missing (or glossing over) one possibility (for which there is no textual evidence). I agree that Celebrimbor, by virtue of the discussion in LoTR, is &quot;bound&quot; to the House of Feanor. Assuming that Celebrimbor was born in Aman, he may have known Idril there. Consider, Idril's Aunt Aredhel was a close friend of the sons of Feanor. Celebrimbor and Idril then could have been friends, or perhaps Celebrimbor was enamored of Idril's beauty, and the Elessar could have been a gift to her either in Aman or before she entered Gondolin. Another alternative would be that it was a gift to signify the setting aside of the greivances between the houses after the rescue of Maedhros by Fingon. If the gift were given in Middle Earth, the Elessar could have been crafted in Beleriand by Celebrimbor and then entered Gondolin.

Forgive me if I parrot other's opinions. The above speculation (certainly not canon) at least provides a motive for the giving of the Elessar by Celebrimbor to Idril.

Telchar, so far as chronology is concerned, my recollection is that the Elessar tale and the other writings about Galadriel were among JRRT's last writings about Middle Earth.

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Old 06-07-2001, 11:24 PM   #26
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Re: Celebrimbor

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Mithadan said:
...and the Elessar could have been a gift to her either in Aman or before she entered Gondolin.<hr></blockquote>

Yes there is the possibility that it was made and given to Idril in Beleriand (Though I think it is unlikely - it is said about the second Elessar that Celebrimbor made that &quot;He bagan a long and delicate labour...&quot; - As stated above I think the timespan is too short)
The Elessar could not have been made in Aman since the Elessar was a stone wherein the light of the Sun should be imprisoned. (You need a Sun raise before you can see the sun)

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Mithadan said
...so far as chronology is concerned, my recollection is that the Elessar tale and the other writings about Galadriel were among JRRT's last writings about Middle Earth.<hr></blockquote>

Im sorry for my ignorance in failure to understand where you are going with this last remark? Could you explain? <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

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Old 06-08-2001, 06:00 AM   #27
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Re: Celebrimbor

Sorry. Misread a prior post. I thought you (or someone) had asked about the timing of the creation of some of these materials. I agree about the sun issue. Forgot that reference.

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Old 06-08-2001, 06:03 AM   #28
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Re: Celebrimbor

No problem - have a nice weekend <img src=cool.gif ALT="8)">

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Old 06-18-2001, 07:16 PM   #29
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Re: Celebrimbor

In The War of the Jewels, in the chapter &quot;Maeglin&quot;, Tolkien explains why Curufin and Celegorm did not send word of Aredhel to Gondolin:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Now they could only get word to Gondolin by facing evil perils, which only her rescue from misery would have seemed to them sufficient reason. Moreover while she was happy and at ease they delayed*** believing that even if Turgon was informed he would only have demanded her return (since his permission to her to depart was void after her disobedience). But before they had made up their minds she was again lost, and it was a long time before they knew or even guessed what had become of her. This they did eventually when Areðel again began to visit the borders of Nan Elmoth, or stray beyond them. For they held a constant watch on Nan Elmoth, mistrusting the doings and goings of Eöl, and their scouts espied her at times riding in the sunlight by the wood-eaves. But now it seemed too late [to] them; and thy all [ ? read they thought that all] they would get for any peril would be the rebuke or wrath of Turgon. And this [they] wished in no way to receive.<hr></blockquote>That Curufin and Celegorm did not know Gondolin's location or approach is not even considered. They knew it. They could have sent messengers to Turgon. It was presumably known by the other sons of Fëanor, and quite possibly by Curufin's son Celebrimbor.

So Celebrimbor might have come to Gondolin on his own. Whether he did ...

I would rather picture Celebrimbor in Morgoth's mines than at the Mouth of Sirion, as otherwise one expects some word of what part he plays in the attacks of the sons of Fëanor. Of course nothing is told either way, and there is no necessity that anything be told.

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Old 06-21-2001, 07:30 AM   #30
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Re: Celebrimbor

Personally I don't think the sons of Fëanor knew the location of Gondolin! They could have - how I do not know...
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Turgon to Aredhel:
I grudge you nothing that I have. Yet I desire that none shall dwell beyond my walls who knows the way hither; and if I trust you, my sister, others I trust less to keep guard on their tongues<hr></blockquote>

I think it would be sad if we cant keep the idear of a hidden city - just to solve problems elsewhere in the story - I can feel JRRT spinning in his grave!

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Old 06-21-2001, 10:09 AM   #31
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Re: Celebrimbor

Telchar:I think it would be sad if we cant keep the idear of a hidden
city - just to solve problems elsewhere in the story - I can feel
JRRT spinning in his grave!

lindil: true enough, but jrrt did strongly suggest in the afore mentioned narrative re: eol that the sons of Feanor knew how to get messages through.

You are right though in going to far in having as potential text, the idea of Noldor of other houses going to and fro Gondolin. Although come to think of it, Arminas when he meets Tuor at the gate of the Noldor, says [as I recall] other Noldor may know G's location , but that they would not tell Men.




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Old 06-22-2001, 01:21 AM   #32
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Re: Celebrimbor

The Exact quote is:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> For since the dwelling of Turgon is hidden, so also are the ways thither. I Know them not, though I have sought them long. Yet if I knew them, I would not reveal them to you , nor to any among men<hr></blockquote>


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Old 06-22-2001, 07:18 PM   #33
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Re: Celebrimbor

The passage I quoted unequivocally indicates that Curufin and Celegorm &quot;could only get word to Gondolin by facing evil perils.&quot; These perils are presumably the dangers of Dungorthin.

So it is said and so it must be.

But I realize on re-reading this account that it does not say that they actually knew its location.

This is only speculation, but it might be that Turgon had made known to the Elf Kings that messages might be sent to him through the eagles of Crissaegrim. Whether Gondolin itself was in the vicinity of Crissaegrim or far off would not be known. This might have been known also to Celebrimbor. But maybe instead messages could be got to Gondolin through Fingolfin in some manner. But to come to either Crissaegrim or to Fingolfin might indeed involve braving the perils of Dungorthin.

I say might because one of the problems with the story of Maeglin is that it ignores entirely the possiblilty of travel between Gondolin and Himlad via Dorthonion, which one would think, in those days before the breaking of the Siege, would be much safer, though somewhat longer. But that is a different problem.

I do not believe that Tolkien, once he had placed the founding of Gondolin before the breaking of the Siege, ever in any way indicated what was thought when Turgon and all his people suddenly vanished, forsaking the siege of Angband. The account I quoted indicates that it was known that Turgon and his folk now dwelt in a hidden city. The ordinary tale of Maeglin also assumes some such knowledge, for there is no suggestion that Aredhel's sudden appearance would be an utter surprise to Fingon and Eöl openly calls his wife &quot;the White Lady of Gondolin&quot; in his bandinage with Celegorm. So the Elven kings at least knew of the existance of the Hidden City and also, it would seem, how to send messages to Turgon in need. But indeed none would have known its exact location or its approaches, taking Turgon's words to Ardhel with their open meaning.

But the little they knew would have been a closely guarded secret and few who knew it survived to tell it after the ending of the Elder Days.

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Old 02-12-2004, 11:00 PM   #34
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Turgon's enmity

From the Shibboleth of Fëanor
Quote:
Elenwë her mother had no Sindarin name, for she never reached Beleriand. She perished in the crossing of the Ice; and Turgon was thereafter unappeasable in his enmity for Fëanor and his sons. He had himself come near to death in the bitter waters when he attempted to save her and his daughter Itaril, whom the breaking of treacherous ice had cast into the cruel sea. Itaril he saved; but the body of Elenwë was covered in fallen ice.
If we are going to take this into account, (and I don't see any reason as to not use it), it seems to me somewhat improbable that Turgon would have allowed that Celebrimbor being descended from Fëanor into Gondolin, knowing his enmity for Fëanor and his sons.
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Old 02-13-2004, 12:21 AM   #35
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That's a very good point. Of course, one could say that Celebrimbor's renunciation of his lineage satisfied Turgon.

But I still hold the opinion I expressed way back in my post of 6/6/2001: that the story wherein Celebrimbor made the Elessar in Gondolin is incompatible with his eventual Feanorian ancestry. I still vote for Enerdhil.
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Old 02-17-2004, 05:30 PM   #36
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Synopsis

From the Elessar
Quote:
There was in Gondolin a jewel-smith named Enerdhil, the greatest of that craft among the Noldor after the death of Fëanor. Enerdhil loved all green things that grew, and his greatest joy was to see the sunlight through the leaves of trees. And it came into his heart to make a jewel within which the clear light of the sun should be imprisoned, but the jewel should be green as leaves. And he made this thing, and even the Noldor marvelled at it. For it is said that those who looked through this stone saw things that were withered or burned healed again or as they were in the grace of their youth, and that the hands of one who held it brought to all that they touched healing from hurt. This gem Enerdhil gave to Idril the King's daughter, and she wore it upon her breast; and so it was saved from the burning of Gondolin. And before Idril set sail she said to Eärendil her son: "The Elessar I leave with thee, for there are grievous hurts to Middle-earth which thou maybe shalt heal. But to none other shalt thou deliver it."
In the end of the essay we have the following:
Quote:
The Elessar was made in Gondolin by Celebrimbor, and so came to Idril and so to Eärendil. But that passed away. But the second Elessar was made also by Celebrimbor in Eregion at the request of the Lady Galadriel (whom he loved), and it was not under the One, being made before Sauron rose again.
And we have the notes of CT:
Quote:
This narrative goes with "Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn" in certain features, and was probably written at about the same time, or a little earlier. Celebrimbor is here again a jewel-smith of Gondolin, rather than one of the Fëanorians (cf. p.247); and Galadriel is spoken of as being unwilling to forsake Middle-earth (cf. p.246) – though the text was later emended and the conception of the ban introduced, and at a later point in the narrative she speaks of the pardon of the Valar.
Enerdhil appears in no other writing; and the concluding words of the text show that Celebrimbor was to displace him as the maker of the Elessar in Gondolin
We seem to have the following problem:

1. Celebrimbor was to displace the character of Enerdhil as the maker of the Elessar, but how can we explain Celebrimbor's appearance in Gondolin, being himself the son of Curufin a Fëanorian, given the fact that we know that Turgon had a great dislike for Fëanor and his sons.
2. Enerdhil would be a good compromise except for the fact that he cannot be the greatest jewel-smith after Fëanor, it has to be his grandson Celebrimbor. Can we keep Enerdhil knowing that he was going to be displaced as a character?
3. I feel bad about using Enerdhil because he was to be discarded. Why must the creator of the Elessar be told. We could keep it vague, that the Elessar was given to Idril in Gondolin.

We could use the following:

[quote]<LQ2 There shining fountains played, and in the courts of Turgon stood images of the Trees of old, which Turgon himself wrought with elven-craft; and the Tree which he made of gold was named Glingal, and the Tree whose flowers he made of silver was named Belthil, and the light which sprang from them filled all the ways of the city. But fairer than all the wonders of Gondolin was Idril Turgon's daughter, she that was called Celebrindal the Silver-foot for the whiteness of her unshod feet, but her hair was as the gold of Laurelin ere the coming of Melkor. <EL [She wore {it} [a jewel] upon her breast] within which the clear light of the sun {should be} [was] imprisoned [and it was]{, but the jewel should be} green as leaves and even the Noldor marvelled at it. For it is said that those who looked through this stone saw things that were withered or burned healed again or as they were in the grace of their youth, and that the hands of one who held it brought to all that they touched healing from hurt. >

It would not be the first time that such a thing would happen. I mean look at the Palantiri. There is no exact quote, as fas as I know, that tells us who exactly made them, although there is the indirect reference to them in the Silmarillion.
If we say that we do not like to use the mention of how the Elessar survived the destruction of Gondolin in here, we can take that little part and move it to our version of the Fall of Gondolin.
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Old 02-17-2004, 09:02 PM   #37
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I vote for the mysterious background of the Elessar. Couldn't we just say that it was made by a great Elf-smith in Gondolin and given to Idril, Turgon's daughter, to heal all hurts?
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Old 06-05-2016, 06:12 PM   #38
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I know this very late but I really don't see necessarily a contradiction between Celebrimbor being Curufin's sons born in Valinor and him abiding in Gondolin in the First Age.

Celebrimbor was associated with Galadriel and Celeborn in many writings (both in the writings concerning Eregion and the Elessar as well as that late concept of Celebrimbor as a Falmar elf and companion of Galadriel and Celeborn in their lonely ship.

If we go with the assumption that Celebrimbor fell in love with Galadriel (or at least felt close to her) then we don't have to go with that assumption of Christopher Tolkien that he only cut his ties with Curufin and Celegorm after the Nargothrond issues in the wake of Finrod's death but he might actually have never been all that close to his father and the other sons of Feanor.

If we doesn't swear the oath he could easily be closer to Finrod/Galadriel and Turgon than his father and uncles, and subsequently end up joining Turgon in the building of Gondolin (where he might be very welcome due to his craftsmanship).

After all, we also know that Fingon and Maedhros were always close, just as Finrod and Turgon were, as well as Aredhel and Feanor's sons. Not to mention that Finrod later allowed Celegorm and Curufin and their people to settle in Nargothrond.

And with Galadriel settling in Doriath and meeting Celeborn there (if we go with him being a Sinda) where Celebrimbor could not go as a Noldo of Feanor's house it wouldn't be very surprising if he ended up joining Turgon rather than ending up in Nargothrond.
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Old 06-06-2016, 04:35 PM   #39
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It is never too late especially in a discussion like these that never found a conclusive end.

But as nice as your speculation is, I don't see that with so less an textual evidence as we have, to have Celebrimbor in Gondolin is out of question in our version. That means it is not siad explicit or strongly suggested. If we could handle it textwise, we might leave this question open. But for that I would suggest to work out a text.

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Old 06-06-2016, 07:48 PM   #40
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Well, I guess the idea would mostly affect the Elessar story in whatever fashion it would be included. I'd propose to just add Celebrimbor being Curufin's son and Feanor's grandson when he is introduced there as a Noldo of Gondolin.

How exactly that turned out to be doesn't have to be explained. I just spun that tale to illustrate that Celebrimbor being Curufin's son is not necessarily contradictory to him living in Gondolin. Granted, it would be nicer to have some grand tale why he didn't swear the oath with his father, uncles, and grandfather, and so on, and how he and Galadriel actually are connected, but we don't need to know any of that to allow Celebrimbor to go to Gondolin.

One could consider including Tolkien's finale note on Celebrimbor's ancestry (Curufin's son, mother remained in Valinor) during the story of the founding of Gondolin. Something like, 'Among them [the Noldor and Sindar going to Gondolin] also was Celebrimbor, Curufin's son, whose mother had remained in Aman.'

The problem with Turgon having issues with Feanor's sons is only problematic for Celebrimbor's abode if we assume he took part in the Kin-slaying and the oath. For all we know he could have been with Fingolfin's host and might have crossed the ice himself. Just because Feanor's sons all jumped on his bandwagon doesn't mean Celebrimbor did the same.

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