The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Announcements and Obituaries > Haudh-en-Ndengin
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-24-2003, 10:30 AM   #1
Firefoot
Illusionary Holbytla
 
Firefoot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 7,646
Firefoot has been trapped in the Barrow!
Sting Intelligence of Orcs

There have been a couple of things that have aroused my interest in this topic. One is that there seem to have been a lot of topics about orcs lately. The other is that I was talking to someone the other day and they said something to the extent of "If you rated orcs' intelligence it would be in the negative." But as I thought about this I realized it probably isn't true. For example, listening to, er... reading over Shagrat and Gorbag's conversation, they seem to have definite mental capabilities - not what I would call stupid. Another example is Merry and Pippin's captors. Those Uruks, especially Ugluk and Grishnakh, show some signs of "smartness". In fact some of the things that orcs do are downright cunning.

What do you think? Where do orcs land on an intelligence scale? Go ahead - if you disagree with me, say something.
Firefoot is offline  
Old 12-24-2003, 12:34 PM   #2
Alatariel
Wight
 
Alatariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: The Cliffs of Insanity
Posts: 178
Alatariel has just left Hobbiton.
Silmaril

I agree that orcs and uruk-hai possess cunning and intelligence. I think that the idea that orcs are basically mindless fighting machines comes more from non-Tolkien related books, as well as RPGs like D&D which have a very low maximum inetelligence for orcs. I don't see why orcs would possess a lesser intelligence than other sentient creatures in ME, and Tolkien did not seem to rate his creatures on scales of "more intelligent vs. less intelligent." Perhaps orcs may seem to be more stupid than, say, humans or elves, because they are more easily controlled by forces like Sauron. I would attribute this to a lesser willpower, not a lesser intelligence. Just a thought. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
__________________
You mean you'll put down your rock and I'll put down my sword and we'll try to kill each other like civilized people?
Alatariel is offline  
Old 12-24-2003, 01:30 PM   #3
Phervasaion
Shade of Carn Dm
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: The wilderness of Middle-Earth
Posts: 306
Phervasaion has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

But, then again Orcs always fight to much amongst themselves which doesnt show much intelligence. Also, i heard somewhere that Orcs were insuperior at fighting hand to hand compared to Elves and men. The orcs do have some intellingent conversations but alot of them result in them fighting with each other.
__________________
Phervasaion
Phervasaion is offline  
Old 12-24-2003, 03:02 PM   #4
Altariel
Animated Skeleton
 
Altariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Angband (a small region in northern BC)
Posts: 50
Altariel has just left Hobbiton.
Silmaril

Perhaps the fact that orcs fight so much among themselves is demonstrative not of a lack of intelligence, but of a lack of tolerance? I'd imagine that, um, Orcish society probably teaches them to have a "me first" kind of attitude.

I don't believe that Orcs are any less intelligent than any other beings in Middle-Earth... but their circumstances probably don't allow for a whole lot of independent thought. As someone said, it was mentioned that their hand-to-hand combat abilities are inferior... once again, it's probably something they learn... Sauron and Morgoth both seemed to prefer the "let's overwhelm them with numbers" tactic, so single combat maybe didn't become necessary very often...?

Except in that unfortunate incidence where poor old Fingolfin went up against Morgoth... ai.
__________________
"Candy: tastes like chicken, if chicken was a candy."
Altariel is offline  
Old 12-24-2003, 03:14 PM   #5
Kalimac
Candle of the Marshes
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Flyover Country
Posts: 780
Kalimac has just left Hobbiton.
1420!

Native intelligence doesn't necessarily preclude nastiness and infighting - just look at the graves of Academe if you want to see that demonstrated [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. The Orcs are odd cases, anyway; they've certainly got brains, and cunning, and can speak a language (albeit the Black Speech, but still, it's a language). So I'd say their intelligence level is pretty decent, though I'm not sure I'd compare it to the Elves - we never see an example of an Orc who has anything remotely resembling Galadriel's abilities, for example.

I think the answer isn't that the Orcs are unintelligent, but that they're almost completely unable to control their own most basic instincts. I don't mean this in an off-colour way, but rather that their desires to kill, to dominate everyone else and each other, to live entirely in the short-term, are so strong in them that they have to work actively to keep them down. The leaders are the ones who manage to beat down this impulse, at least for a time, and so strategize their way upwards. Ugluk, for example, doesn't give into the temptation that 98% of his subordinates have, which is to lay into Merry and Pippin right now and despoil them - *despite* the fact that they know perfectly well what bad consequences there would be from Saruman for doing this. Grishnakh, of course, does give in. But the impression I get from the Orcs is that the vast majority of them are unable to think twenty minutes ahead. They fight because they enjoy it, they dominate because they enjoy it, and they use all their intelligence in developing these two skills.

Whether it's realistic for an entire race to share these characteristics and survive more than a few generations is another question, and that's not the issue here. It seems that when Melkor tortured the Elves, he seems to have concentrated on turning them into creatures who delighted in killing and domination. Good for his purposes, of course, but it also brought some unexpected drawbacks, like all that infighting. Just my $0.02.
__________________
Father, dear Father, if you see fit, We'll send my love to college for one year yet
Tie blue ribbons all about his head, To let the ladies know that he's married.
Kalimac is offline  
Old 12-24-2003, 10:38 PM   #6
Tar-Alcarin
Wight
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Numenore
Posts: 108
Tar-Alcarin has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

They, i am only guessing here, that they are much like Lennie in "Of Mice and Men." Kind of stupid and slow witted. But then again, The Uruk-hai seem to know who they are. Countless Cries of "We are the Fighting Uruk-hai" durng helms deep support this theory. But orcs in general are slow witted and not the brightest bulb in the bunch. That would be the elves.
__________________
Miniature Rohirrim armor: $500. Amount of fuel it took pippin to light the beacons: $20. Seeing your two favourite hobbits get wasted and drunk: priceless
Tar-Alcarin is offline  
Old 12-24-2003, 10:45 PM   #7
elenquesse
Pile O'Bones
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Gardens of Ithilien
Posts: 19
elenquesse has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to elenquesse
Sting

I'd say the Orcs are slow-witted because they were bred for only one purpose: to kill. They don't really need anything else to serve this purpose for their masters. Therefore, I think the "intelligence" displayed by the Orcs in Cirith Ungol was simply a display of their singlemindedness.
__________________
"The hands of a king are the hands of a healer, and so shall the rightful king be known." ~Ioreth~
elenquesse is offline  
Old 12-26-2003, 04:32 AM   #8
doug*platypus
Delver in the Deep
 
doug*platypus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Aotearoa
Posts: 963
doug*platypus has just left Hobbiton.
Shield

Actually, if you compare the conversations at the Green Dragon to the conversations between orc captains, I think I have to conclude that Orcs are of much the same intelligence as hobbits. That, of course, does not include the Four Travellers, Bilbo or Farmer Maggot.

I think that Orcs left to their own devices and given the same opportunities as other races may have had some chance at a decent civilisation. Their carving and painting may not have been up to scratch, but as graffiti artists they were second to none. Unfortunately, Sauron or Morgoth never really lavished the care and attention on them that better masters would have. I guess I see them a little bit as the underprivileged street kids of Middle-Earth, who turn to gangs, robbery and murder, but not because they are inherently evil. I have a lot more pity for Orcs than the average reader does.

But while the average orc may have been a match for the average hobbit in Trivial Pursuit, I think that the leaders of the Orc race were far inferior to the leaders of the other races. Tolkien frequently shows us exemplary elves, men, ents and dwarves. But we never once see a truly exceptional orc. Grishnkh is the shrewdest orc we come across, but he's not really all that super-intelligent when it comes down to it. Maybe the truly smart ones get killed off as a matter of course. Orcs don't seem to be the kind of people who really value intelligence. Our own society is quite different; as Homer Simpson once said:
Quote:
and the weak and nerdy are admired for their computer-programming ability!
__________________
But Gwindor answered: 'The doom lies in yourself, not in your name'.
doug*platypus is offline  
Old 12-26-2003, 09:09 AM   #9
Noxomanus
Wight
 
Noxomanus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 233
Noxomanus has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

I think they were quite smart and capable of complex conversations and actions,but were completely brainwashed and trained only for war. They easily fought among each other because they were probably been convinced of the inferiority of their own existence and that anyone opposing you could be killed.
__________________
Nothing is evil in the beginning,even Sauron wasn't
Noxomanus is offline  
Old 12-26-2003, 09:57 AM   #10
Finwe
Deathless Sun
 
Finwe's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos
Posts: 2,609
Finwe has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Finwe
Sting

In their world, intelligence wasn't valued as much as strength was. Thus, the strong ones would survive more than the smart ones. That's not to say that strength is everything, but at some point, even the smartest person in the world couldn't stand up against the strongest person in the world.
__________________
But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fanor, and there he slew Finw King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finw alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.
Finwe is offline  
Old 12-26-2003, 10:48 AM   #11
Annalaliath
Shade of Carn Dm
 
Annalaliath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Albuquerque
Posts: 380
Annalaliath has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Annalaliath Send a message via Yahoo to Annalaliath
Sting

I think that the Orcs were intelligent enough. I mean havent you all seen the quote that pops up above once in a while, about Ocs counting.

Just because you are evil and kill things for fun does not mean that you are an idiot. Some may have been but I think that they were smart in their own twisted way. I mean Hitler was a genius and his men were not all stupid. Some of them were geniuses too.

I think that we as a world have come to the conclusion that if something is evil and kills for fun, then it is generally stupid. I think that is a misconception. This leads to stupid mistakes on our parts and we pay for it with our lives. So I think that the Orcs have intelligence. As my mother is saying that lack of intelligence precludes evil. They had a society and they made weapons and armor so therefore they are not stupid. Orcs were evil from birth, as twisted creations of Iluvitar.

The Orcs knew who was who, had names and had a language. They also knew what was going on and were able to organize attacks on middle earth.
__________________
Bloody Stumps!!!
Annalaliath is offline  
Old 12-26-2003, 11:45 AM   #12
Teleri
Animated Skeleton
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: U.S.A., though I'd prefer the Shire
Posts: 45
Teleri has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Orcs are definitely not stupid, but it is true that we never meet an orc Gandalf or Galadriel. I think the orcs have a different kind of cunning that is more suited to their purpose. And we must not forget the reasoning skills of some of the captains.
Also, I can think of at least one place where I was thinking along the same lines as one of them. Remember Gorbag's little "You'd best put your thinking cap on, if you have one." speach? Did anyone else read that, and think "Oh finally Sam's gotten some recognition." Up until then even wise people like Faramir have treated Sam as inferior.
"Do not speak before your master, who's wit is greater than yours." I think Gorbag got a better introduction than Faramir.
__________________
"But after coming all that way I don't want to give up yet. It's not like me, somehow, if you understand."
Teleri is offline  
Old 12-26-2003, 05:19 PM   #13
willkill4food
Animated Skeleton
 
willkill4food's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Salem, OR
Posts: 44
willkill4food has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via ICQ to willkill4food Send a message via AIM to willkill4food
Sting

But you have to consider the fact that I doubt neither Morgoth or Sauron spent much resources on the education of Orcs, probably not much more than handing out cards with picture of men, elves, hobbits, and dwarves with a giant "KILL" written over the picture...

Also when you look at the 4 orcs that seem to posses inteligence in lotr, Gorbag, Shagrat, Ugluk, and Grishnakh. All have one thing in common, they are all high ranking leaders. Possible Sauron notices inteligence in his servants and promotes based on the most capable?

-willkill
__________________
Gil-galad was an Elven-king. Of him the harpers sadly sing...
willkill4food is offline  
Old 12-26-2003, 05:38 PM   #14
Alatariel
Wight
 
Alatariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: The Cliffs of Insanity
Posts: 178
Alatariel has just left Hobbiton.
Silmaril

Quote:
I doubt neither Morgoth or Sauron spent much resources on the education of Orcs
Just because someone is uneducated does not mean he is unintelligent.
Quote:
it is true that we never meet an orc Gandalf or Galadriel
Yes, but Gandalf and Galadriel have both been on ME for thousands of years. Given the same lifespan, an orc could probably reach the same level of wisdom. Then again, this is picking out two of the most wise people in all of ME and then measuring an entire culture against them. This would be like taking Socrates and Aristotle and comparing them to uneducated people in a third world country. It is not a fair judgement.
__________________
You mean you'll put down your rock and I'll put down my sword and we'll try to kill each other like civilized people?
Alatariel is offline  
Old 12-27-2003, 04:54 AM   #15
Lhunardawen
Hauntress of the Havens
 
Lhunardawen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: IN it, but not OF it
Posts: 2,618
Lhunardawen has been trapped in the Barrow!
Send a message via MSN to Lhunardawen
Silmaril

Intelligence is a relative characteristic. Some may see Orcs as intelligent because they are capable of speaking, understanding, remembering, and others. Probably compared to other foul races, they are. But if they are compared to the Elves or Wizards, they certainly aren't. But I am amazed at how cunning they can be in terms of war and fighting, though I am not exactly one for their violence.

Did they really lose all of their Elven characteristics as a result of Morgoth's mutilation?

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 6:32 AM December 27, 2003: Message edited by: Lhunardawen ]
Lhunardawen is offline  
Old 12-27-2003, 07:08 AM   #16
Reyna Evergreen
Haunting Spirit
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Mirkwood, Canada
Posts: 69
Reyna Evergreen has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Reyna Evergreen
Silmaril

In a movie I saw, probably Star Wars or the like, one of the character states:
Quote:
The ability to speak does not make you intelligent
Is it safe to say that a cunning orc is not necessarily an intelligent one? Acting for one's own advantage may seem cunning, but in the long run, it may not be the most intelligent thing to do. The orcs who wanted to eat Merry and Pippin were idiots, enough said, although the one who decided to capture them for himself- and pardon my memory and lack of names- was considered cunning and perhaps intelligent. Wasn't he killed in the end, anyway?

It's true that there is some speck of brains among the orcs, but not enough to actually plan something deft and subtle. Their act is more chop, hack, kill and eat. There might be the oddball, or a mutation, every few generations who would be able to push himself to better things, but he's always the exception.

Orcs are brainless, tools for the greater mind's schemes.

Or I could just be totally missing the point here.
__________________
"Utlie 'n aur! Aiya Eldali ar Atanatri, utlie 'n aur!"
The day has come! Behold, people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, day has come!
Reyna Evergreen is offline  
Old 12-27-2003, 03:43 PM   #17
Finwe
Deathless Sun
 
Finwe's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos
Posts: 2,609
Finwe has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Finwe
Sting

I'm inclined to agree with you there, Reyna.

Orcs just didn't NEED intelligence, the way that Elves or Men needed it. They could easily survive for a normal Orc lifespan, without a lot of intelligence. Men or Elves, on the other hand, needed to be smart to live as long as they did, especially in the Third Age.
__________________
But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fanor, and there he slew Finw King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finw alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.
Finwe is offline  
Old 12-29-2003, 01:14 AM   #18
Lobelia
Wight
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 150
Lobelia has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

If we regard THE HOBBIT as part of canon - and JRR did go back and re-write to make sure it was - the orcs/goblins did seem to have their own cities and rulers less than a century before the events of LOTR, so they must have been able to co-operate enough to keep those going. It was also stated that they were very good at technology of the loud bang variety and making things from iron. Now, Tolkien didn't approve of technology, so this wasn't meant as a compliment, but the fact remains that if you can make - and presumably design - things technological, you aren't dumb! The orcs of Goblintown in THE HOBBIT weren't being ordered around by the likes of Saruman or Sauron at that time.
Lobelia is offline  
Old 12-29-2003, 11:01 AM   #19
Tar-Alcarin
Wight
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Numenore
Posts: 108
Tar-Alcarin has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Quote:
This would be like taking Socrates and Aristotle and comparing them to uneducated people in a third world country. It is not a fair judgement.
Amen to that.(not aman Finwe [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] )

Orcs probably would have semi-bright bulbs in the bunch. Shagrat and Gorgab seemed pretty smart in the books, except the elvish warrior thing with sam. But orcs dont need to be smart to survive, thy ust need to kill, eat, and die to make suaron happy. Melkor probably made them intentionally not smart so that they could never question his authority.

That being said, was there ever an Orc Rebelion?
__________________
Miniature Rohirrim armor: $500. Amount of fuel it took pippin to light the beacons: $20. Seeing your two favourite hobbits get wasted and drunk: priceless
Tar-Alcarin is offline  
Old 12-29-2003, 04:34 PM   #20
Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar
Wight
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Somewhere, wandering in middle earth...
Posts: 137
Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

If an orc was born with a mind with the potential to become like gandalf or galadriel, it would not matter, because he would not be allowed to become someone that powerful. For sauron, it might even seem better to kill the most intelligent orcs, so that they do not ralize that they are not benifiting from obeying him. Or he simply crushes their spirit and then promotes them, so that they become the leaders and use what intelligence they have.

Orcs have the potential to become powerful, like elves, but they never will because of their culture.

I think.
__________________
Turin Turambar, Master of Fate, by Fate Mastered.

No, im not turin. Or tuor. Or anyone. I am not!
Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar is offline  
Old 12-30-2003, 11:12 AM   #21
Olorin_TLA
Shade of Carn Dm
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Gardens of Lrien, Valinor.
Posts: 420
Olorin_TLA has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

But cunning is what you need to have a good army. Take a look at the Two Towers chapter, "the Uruk-hai" - do you really think that if Ugluk or Grishnahk had acted like the Northern Orks, that they would have survived for as long as they did?
__________________
"For I am Olrin! And Olrin means me!"

ELENDIL! - Join "Forth Tolkiengas!"
Olorin_TLA is offline  
Old 12-30-2003, 11:25 AM   #22
Tar-Alcarin
Wight
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Numenore
Posts: 108
Tar-Alcarin has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

I think that the Uruks were the exception to that rule. They were smart, not as smart as our heros granted, but smart notheless. They do seem to know who they are, and why they have to bring Merry and pippen back to orthanc. They know that saruman thinks they have a "Powedrful Elvish Weapon" that and they dont have to speak in the black speach. But orcs are just stupid, sure there might be a bright bukb in the bunch but they will most likely die anyways.
__________________
Miniature Rohirrim armor: $500. Amount of fuel it took pippin to light the beacons: $20. Seeing your two favourite hobbits get wasted and drunk: priceless
Tar-Alcarin is offline  
Old 12-30-2003, 01:51 PM   #23
Finwe
Deathless Sun
 
Finwe's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos
Posts: 2,609
Finwe has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Finwe
Sting

There is always going to be that occasional "bright bulb" amid the crowd of "dim bulbs." In Orcish society, there were many more "dim bulbs," than in Human or Elf society, ergo, there were fewer "bright bulbs."
__________________
But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fanor, and there he slew Finw King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finw alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.
Finwe is offline  
Old 12-30-2003, 07:51 PM   #24
Alimarwen
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Sting

But if you consider the fact the the very first orcs were mutilated and tourtured Elves, and the fact the tourture often breaks the minds of the victims, then add in the fact that while the later orcs were not tourtured (aside from day to day orcish life) but retained the broken appearance of their forebearers, isn't it possible that they also received the psycological effects of the tourture? That would ensure that their desire to kill things, especially Elves, continued into all the generations, and would stop an especially bright orc from starting an uprising.
Just a thought...
 
Old 12-30-2003, 11:58 PM   #25
Teleri
Animated Skeleton
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: U.S.A., though I'd prefer the Shire
Posts: 45
Teleri has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Quote:
"isn't it possible that they also received the psycological effects of the tourture?"
I know it's horrible, but that made me laugh a bit. I could just see Snaga in a psychiatrist's office: "Post Tramitic Stress? May the Black Pits take you!"
__________________
"But after coming all that way I don't want to give up yet. It's not like me, somehow, if you understand."
Teleri is offline  
Old 12-31-2003, 10:06 AM   #26
Olorin_TLA
Shade of Carn Dm
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Gardens of Lrien, Valinor.
Posts: 420
Olorin_TLA has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Well Tolkien says that Orks are filled with hate, and unless occupied with some kind of enemy (Gondor, Elves, etc) they'd kill each other.
__________________
"For I am Olrin! And Olrin means me!"

ELENDIL! - Join "Forth Tolkiengas!"
Olorin_TLA is offline  
Old 12-31-2003, 03:26 PM   #27
Teleri
Animated Skeleton
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: U.S.A., though I'd prefer the Shire
Posts: 45
Teleri has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Which is why it is very good for them that they have tons of enimies.
If orcs are tortured elves, then maybe they have the intellect of an elf, but lack the emotion and understanding to use it, so they are left with exceptional logic skills when they are able to overcome more primitive urges (must...eat...the halfling!).
In my opinion, orcs are smart when their not stupid. And if that made sense, it was smart too.
__________________
"But after coming all that way I don't want to give up yet. It's not like me, somehow, if you understand."
Teleri is offline  
Old 01-01-2004, 12:39 PM   #28
Finwe
Deathless Sun
 
Finwe's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos
Posts: 2,609
Finwe has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Finwe
Sting

Exactly.

By the Third Age, I don't think that the Orcs were even capable of a high level of intelligence, except for a few. Think about it. Generations of broken minds were breeding for hundreds of years. Could you really expect to have a brilliant kid when you and the rest of your ancestors had been mentally, emotionally, and physically tortured, and your mind broken?
__________________
But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fanor, and there he slew Finw King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finw alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.
Finwe is offline  
 

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:37 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.