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Old 09-09-2015, 06:14 AM   #161
Arvegil145
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Concerning Ulmo's message - I think it should stand as it is. After all, Turgon is the last significant threat to Morgoth, and even if he, by himself, cannot stand alone against Angband, it could still mean that he (along with other potential allies) could gather all of his forces to a safer refuge (say, Balar) and then wait for the aid of the Valar - which would mean a substantial help would come to the Host of the West when they arrive to the Beleriand - and Turgon would indeed be haled as one of the greatest heroes of the War of Wrath - nonetheless, in the end, the Doom of Mandos was inevitable.
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Old 09-09-2015, 09:18 AM   #162
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Can you please specify what you mean by:
Quote:
it should stand as it is
Which Version is meant here?

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Old 09-11-2015, 12:12 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by Findegil View Post
Can you please specify what you mean by:Which Version is meant here?
The one from the Lost Tales.
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Old 09-11-2015, 12:13 PM   #164
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Also, I would like to add the essay "Glorfindel" from the PoME - I think it would add a nice touch to the story.
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Old 09-12-2015, 05:29 PM   #165
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To take the Lost Tale verssion of the conversation between Tuor and Turgon is out of question as the discussion stands now.

We have Aiwendil's last outline:
- Tuor bids Turgon prepare for a war against Morgoth, describes the means of preparing (alliances with the Feanorians and with men of the east, probable succour from the Valar), and describes the consequences of such a war (a terrible battle but a chance for real victory).
- Tuor further says that if Turgon refuses this counsel, then he should abandon Gondolin and seek refuge at the mouths of Sirion.
- Idril and Turgon's wise councillors speak in favour of this (the latter) advice.
- Turgon refuses both the first counsel and the second counsel.

I have right now no time to try that out, but I would propose that we could serve the result of the discussion better, if we could avoid that abandon Gondolin is only the counsel if Turgon will not prepare for war.

The essay Glorfindel might be an ingredent in a part of the second age material but for sure not in FoG.

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Old 09-23-2015, 03:45 PM   #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gondowe
I said in a previous post that I agreed with last Findegil's text in the history information. I thought (and I think) was better because Ulmo's message must be (in my opinion, in the "last" conception, no that of LT) in only one breath and then the cloak vanish. And for me narratively looks better. But, repeat, I agree with Findegil's text, it tells the same at the end.
Yes, but I think we had already rejected Findegil's most recent text and decided to first agree on an outline. The outline I proposed, which I still would advocate, is:

- Tuor bids Turgon prepare for a war against Morgoth, describes the means of preparing (alliances with the Feanorians and with men of the east, probable succour from the Valar), and describes the consequences of such a war (a terrible battle but a chance for real victory).
- Tuor further says that if Turgon refuses this counsel, then he should abandon Gondolin and seek refuge at the mouths of Sirion.
- Idril and Turgon's wise councillors speak in favour of this (the latter) advice.
- Turgon refuses both the first counsel and the second counsel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arvegil145
Concerning Ulmo's message - I think it should stand as it is. After all, Turgon is the last significant threat to Morgoth, and even if he, by himself, cannot stand alone against Angband, it could still mean that he (along with other potential allies) could gather all of his forces to a safer refuge (say, Balar) and then wait for the aid of the Valar - which would mean a substantial help would come to the Host of the West when they arrive to the Beleriand - and Turgon would indeed be haled as one of the greatest heroes of the War of Wrath - nonetheless, in the end, the Doom of Mandos was inevitable.
How do you feel about the outline suggested above? I think that this still captures what you describe here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Findegil
I have right now no time to try that out, but I would propose that we could serve the result of the discussion better, if we could avoid that abandon Gondolin is only the counsel if Turgon will not prepare for war.
I'm not sure if I understand you correctly, but it sounds like you are saying you want to follow the idea that if Turgon prepared for war, that would also involve abandoning Gondolin. I would much rather not explicitly say that.

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Old 09-23-2015, 04:50 PM   #167
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My problem with your outline, Aiwendil, is exactly that Tuor does provide Turgon with an alternative, if he would not wage that war he is advocating in Ulmo's name. I think the difference is bit the opposit of Yoda saying that you should not try, you should do it.

I mean, that if we press the counsel to go war and to leave Gondolin together in on speach of Tuor, then we should avoid presenting them as alternatives. I would agree to an 'at least' but not an 'if ... then'.

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Old 09-25-2015, 08:16 AM   #168
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Okay, reading some of the older postings brougth mer back into this discussion. May be summary is agian needed:
- At first Maedhros, Aiwendil agreed not to take up the counsel of Ulmo that Turgon should wage a war against Morgoth. I consented to this but with reservations.
- Later Aiwendil found that probably the urging to prepare for a war should be included, but gondowe had joined the group and had some reservations about that. So my Feeling from the arguemnts of gondowe is that he is more concerned with the importance of parts of the counsel then with leaving the war out completly.
- Now Arvegil145 has joined and is for including the counsel of war.

So at least we have overcome the patt situation.

It seems to me that we all agree now to Ulmo asking Turgon to prepare for war, even so that might not be the most important part of the message.

But going back to my own counsel to work with arguments based on supporting textual evidence:
The pricipals say that the younger the text, the more wigth it should have, so we might start with the passage in Grey Annals were Ulmo speaks to Turgon. Ulmo clearly warns Turgon that Gondolin will not stand for ever against Melkor, because of the Doom of Mandos. And that if the time come near that he will send Tuor. This seems to me the strongest support for gondowe's point of view, that the main motive of Ulmos counsel is to remove the Gondolidrim from the city.
In the speach form Ulmo to Tuor we hear that Tuor sword is worth sending, which I would call a support for a forseen warlike out come by Ulmo.
Later when Tuor speaks to Voronw he Shows knowledge of the conversation between Ulmo and Turgon, that only the Gondolindrim (and Ulmo of course) had. I think from this Christopher Tolkien took the idea for Sil77 of recalling the Ulmo's words in Tuor meassage 'And he gave warning to Turgon that the Curse of Mandos now hastened to its fulfilment, when all the works of the Noldor should perish' and in Turgons pondering 'and there came into his mind the words that were spoken to him in Vinyamar ...'.
When Ulmo revales to Turgon, that their is no hope in the war against Melkor with out the help from the west, than this can only mean:
- Had Turgon followed the biding of Ulmo (what ever that had included), the out come would have been better then what is seen at the end of the 1. Age. (Other wise the biding would be sensless.)
- Anyhow the overcome of Melkor would only be contrived with the help from the west.
- So what ever exactly Ulmo asked Turgon to do, it would not have avoided the destruction/derssertion of Gondolin it would have changed the War of Wrath and ist out come.

From the early source Prose fragment of the Tale of Tuor [HoME IV; chapter 1;i] we learn that, Ulmo proberbly did know that only a messager speaking in person for the Noldor and pleading for pardon would change the mind of the Valar and bring them to aid the people of Middle-earth against Melkor (This I have denied in previous posting, but I now see that I might have been wrong.) Thus I agree to gondowe that bring about the birth of Earendil was the most important intention of Ulmo's dealing with Tuor and Turgon. That this motive was still valid might be guesses from the persage of Huor and the vision of Cirdan about the rising star.
Thus if Ulmo ask Turgon to send again messangers to Valinor after he removed from Gondolin, he is speaking of Earendil and nobody else.

But again, if Turgon ist asked to do something by Ulmo the achievement of that deed must have be benevolent in some way.
With this input what might have been the result if Turgon would have followed (this is spectlaution only but it might help to understand my point of view):
- Turgon starts to perpare his folk to leave Gondolin
- Tuor stays for a time an fathers Earendil.
- Turgon starts to make alliances with all Elves left in Beleriand.
- They remove from Gondolin before it is attaced.
- Tuor is sent to the east an gather Men to the help in the battle to come.
- With the intact force of Gondolin at the mouth of Sirion and allainces fromed between Turgon and Maedhros the third kin-slain would have been impossible.
- Earendil would in the end have been reached Valinor (probably later, after taking his wife and the Silmaril onto his ship, only because she would no longer stay alone at home).
- War of Wrath with the help of Men from the East, the Gondolindrim from the south and probably the Feanorian from the south-west. => Melkors Forces completly destroyed.

With that in mind, it would be most important to leave Gondolin before the attac, because otherwise (as is seen in FoG) Earendil is in danger of being killed and with him the sole hope of secure for the Elves of Beleriand.

Now all this rambling leads in my mind at least to the follwoing outline:
- Tuor bides Turgon to abandon Gondolin, search refuge under Ulmos protection at Sirions mouth (he mentions unknown dangers greater than expected and a harder future for Middle-Earth if only that course is taken) and bides Turgon farther to prepare for the War against Morgoth to come.
- Tuor speaks about the means by which that war should be prepared (alliance with the Men of the east build by the help of Tuor after a time of abiding in Gondolin and alliance with the Feanorians, probably succour by the Valar urged to this by Ulmo, but in the end only archivable through a messanger from the Gondlindrim [Earendil]) and consequences of that war (terrible battle but a chance for a real victory).
- When Tuor Ends his speach the mantle of Ulmo desapears.
- Maeglin speaks against the counsel of Ulmo and Idril supports it.
- Turgon denies again by blaming the Valar for being blind and deaf against his messengers asking for help and of being not helpful so far in protecting his people against Morgoth.
- Idril and the wiser councilors are troubled that Turgon did not follow the biding.

Is that helpfull?

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Old 10-04-2015, 01:48 PM   #169
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I suppose I'm just not convinced, even if the counsel of war includes the abandonment of Gondolin, that it necessarily includes the specific instructions to go down to Sirion's mouths. Moreover, I'm still not really convinced that the counsel of war necessarily involves the abandonment of Gondolin.

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Originally Posted by Findegil
My problem with your outline, Aiwendil, is exactly that Tuor does provide Turgon with an alternative, if he would not wage that war he is advocating in Ulmo's name. I think the difference is bit the opposit of Yoda saying that you should not try, you should do it.

I mean, that if we press the counsel to go war and to leave Gondolin together in on speach of Tuor, then we should avoid presenting them as alternatives. I would agree to an 'at least' but not an 'if ... then'.
Let me try to add some logic to my earlier outline to show how I think it makes sense.

- Tuor bids Turgon prepare for a war against Morgoth, describes the means of preparing (alliances with the Feanorians and with men of the east, probable succour from the Valar), and describes the consequences of such a war (a terrible battle but a chance for real victory). It is not explicitly said, at this point, whether such a war would involve abandoning Gondolin, but perhaps this is understood to be implied.
- Tuor further says that if Turgon refuses to go to war, then he should (still) abandon Gondolin and seek refuge at the mouths of Sirion.
- Idril and Turgon's wise councillors speak in favour of this (the latter) advice.
- Turgon refuses both the first counsel and the second counsel.

So if you want to interpret it in such a way that the counsel of war involves abandoning Gondolin, then Ulmo is saying (through Tuor): "Even if you refuse to do the war thing, you should still at least do the part where you abandon your city and seek refuge at the mouths of Sirion.
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Old 10-05-2015, 10:35 AM   #170
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Yes, formulated in such a way I at least can agree to your outline, Aiwendil.

What about the others? Gondowe? Arvegil145?
If both of you agree I will try to make a draft from this outline.

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Old 10-05-2015, 12:24 PM   #171
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I agree.
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Old 10-09-2015, 04:35 PM   #172
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Earlier as I aspected, I got a chance to make a draft. Here we go:
Quote:
FG-T-23 Then Turgon {king of Gondolin} <Narn King of Gondolin>, <TO tallest of all the Children of the World, save Thingol>, robed in white with a belt of gold, and a coronet of garnets was upon his head, <TO {with a}[and at his side] a white and gold sword in a ruel-bone sheath,> stood before his doors and spake from the head of the white stairs that led thereto. Welcome, O Man of the Land of Shadows. Lo! thy coming was {set in our books of wisdom}[foretold by Ulmo], {and it has been written}[saying] that {there would come to pass many great things in the homes of the Gondothlim} <QS77 beyond ruin and fire hope shall be born for Elves and Men> whenso thou faredst hither. <QS77 {and}[And] upon the King's right hand there stood Maeglin his sister-son, but upon his left hand sat Idril Celebrindal his daughter> <TO {and that it was to be emphasized, either when Tuor first set eyes upon Idril or at some earlier point, that}[and at the sight of her Tuor marvelled, for] he had known or even seen few women in his life. Most of the women and all the children of Annael's company in Mithrim were sent away south; and as a thrall Tuor had seen only the proud and barbarous women of the Easterlings, who treated him as a beast, or the unhappy slaves forced to labour from childhood, for whom he had only pity.>
FG-T-24 Then spake Tuor, and Ulmo set power in his heart and majesty in his voice. Behold, O father of the City of Stone, I am bidden by him who maketh deep music in the Abyss, and who knoweth the mind of Elves and Men, to say unto thee that the days of Release draw nigh. FG-T-24.1{There have come to the ears of Ulmo whispers of your dwelling and your hill of vigilance against the evil of Melko, and he is glad: but his}His heart is wroth FG-T-24.2{and the hearts of the Valar are angered who sit in the mountains of Valinor and look upon the world from the peak of Taniquetil, }seeing the sorrow of the thraldom of the {Noldoli}[Elves] and the wanderings of Men; for {Melko}[Melkor] ringeth them in the Land of Shadows beyond {hills of iron}[Ered Wethrin]. FG-T-24.3Therefore have I been brought by a secret way to FG-T-24.4<QS77 {And he gave}give warning to {Turgon}you that the Curse of Mandos now hastened to its fulfilment, when all the works of the Noldor should perish> and FG-T-24.5 bid you number your hosts and prepare for battle, for the time is ripe. FG-T-24.55<Q30 {and}And he bade Turgon to send again his messengers into the West>; FG-T-24.57<Q30; QI promising that Ulmo would win the hearts of the Valar to send him succour.> FG-T-24.77 <S If Turgon {does}did {Ylmir}[Ulmo]'s will Tuor {is}was to abide a while in Gondolin>FG-T-24.79<Q30 {Summons}, but summons too should {he}Turgon send into the East and gather, if he might, Men (who were now multiplying and spreading on the earth) unto his banners; and for that task Tuor was most fit. 'Forget,' counselled Ulmo, 'the treachery of Uldor the accursed, and remember Hurin; for without mortal Men the Elves shall not prevail against the Balrogs and the Orcs.' Nor should the feud with the sons of Feanor be left unhealed; for this should be the last gathering of the hope of the {Gnomes}[Noldor], when every sword should count.> FG-T-25{
Then spake Turgon: That will I not do, though it be the words of Ulmo and all the Valar. I will not adventure this my people against the terror of the Orcs, nor emperil my city against the fire of Melko.
}Then spake Tuor: {Nay, if}If thou dost not now dare greatly then will the Orcs dwell for ever and possess in the end most of the mountains of the Earth, and cease not to trouble both Elves and Men, even though by other means the Valar contrive hereafter to release the {Noldoli}[Noldor]; but if thou trust now to the Valar, though terrible the encounter, then shall the Orcs fall, and {Melko}[Melkor]'s power be minished to a little thing. FG-T-24.8<Q30 A terrible and mortal strife he foretold, FG-T-24.9 but victory if Turgon would dare it, the breaking of Morgoths power, and the healing of feuds, and friendship between Men and Elves, whereof the greatest good should come into the world, and the servants of Morgoth trouble it no more.> FG-T-24.95{
But Turgon said that he was king of Gondolin and no will should force him against his counsel to emperil the dear labour of long ages gone; but}And Tuor said, for thus was he bidden by Ulmo who had feared the reluctance of Turgon: {Then am }I am bidden to say that at least FG-T-24.6<Q30 abandon Gondolin and lead {his}your people> {men of the Gondothlim repair swiftly and} secretly down the river Sirion to the sea, FG-T-25.65<Q30; QI ere Morgoth could oppose {him}you, and at Sirion's mouth Ulmo {would}will befriend {him}you, and lend his aid to the building of>{and there build them} boats and {go}to seek back to Valinor: lo! the paths thereto are forgotten and the highways faded from the world, and the seas and mountains are about it, yet still dwell there the Elves on the hill of {Kr}[Tuna] and the {Gods}[Valar] sit in Valinor, though their mirth is minished for sorrow{ and fear of Melko}, and they hide their land and weave about it inaccessible magic that no evil come to its shores. Yet still might thy messengers win there and turn their hearts that they rise in wrath and smite {Melko}[Melkor], and destroy the Hells of Iron that he has wrought beneath the Mountains of Darkness.{} FG-T-25.67<Q30 But in this counsel there {was}is danger more dire than in the other, though so it might not seem; and grievous thereafter would be the fate of the Outer Lands.
This errand Ulmo performed out of his love of the Elves, and because he knew that ere many years were passed the doom of Gondolin would come, if its people sat still behind its walls; not thus should anything of joy or beauty in the world be preserved from Morgoth's malice.> FG-T-24.91 Thus <Q30 Tuor spoke the embassy of Ulmo <TO in the hearing of all>, and something of the power and majesty of the Lord of Waters his voice had caught, so that all folk looked in wonder on him, and doubted that this were a Man of mortal race as he declared.>
FG-T-25.3< QS77 Then Turgon pondered long the counsel of Ulmo, and there came into his mind the words that were spoken to him in Vinyamar: 'Love not too well the work of thy hands and the devices of thy heart; and remember that the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West, and cometh from the Sea.'> FG-T-25.31< Q30 But proud was Turgon become, and Gondolin as beautiful as a memory of {Tun}[Tirion], and he trusted in its secret and impregnable strength [b]FG-T-25.32[b]< QS77 , though even a Vala should gainsay it; and after the Nirnaeth Arnoediad>{; so that} he and the most part of his folk wished not to imperil it nor leave it, and they desired not to mingle in the woes of Elves and Men without; nor did they any longer desire to return through dread and danger to the West. FG-T-25.34{Meglin}[Maeglin] spoke ever against Tuor in the councils of the king, and his words seemed the more weighty in that they went with Turgon's heart. Wherefore Turgon rejected the bidding of Ulmo; though some there were of his wisest counsellors who were filled with disquiet. Wise-hearted even beyond the measure of the daughters of Elfinesse was the daughter of the king, and she spoke ever for Tuor, though it did not avail, and her heart was heavy. Very fair and tall was she, well nigh of warrior's stature, and her hair was a fountain of gold. Idril was she named, and called Celebrindal, Silver-foot, for the whiteness of her foot; and she walked and danced ever unshod in the white ways and green lawns of Gondolin.>
FG-T-25.35<moved from above Then spake Turgon: That will I not do, though it be the words of Ulmo and all the Valar. I will not adventure this my people against the terror of the Orcs, nor emperil my city against the fire of {Melko}[Morgoth].> FG-T-25.36<moved from above{But}And Turgon said that he was king of Gondolin and no will should force him against his counsel to emperil the dear labour of long FG-T-25.53{ages}[years] gone>. Then said Turgon: {Every}Many year at the lifting of winter have messengers repaired swiftly and by stealth down the river FG-T-26 {that is called} Sirion to the coasts of the Great Sea, and there builded them boats whereto have swans and gulls been harnessed or the strong wings of the wind, and these have sought back beyond the moon and sun to Valinor; but the paths thereto are forgotten and the highways faded from the world, and the seas and mountains are about it, and they that sit within in mirth reck little of the dread of {Melko}[Morgoth] or the sorrow of the world, but hide their land and weave about it inaccessible magic, that no tidings of evil come ever to their ears. Nay, enough of my people have for years untold gone out to the wide waters never to return, but have perished in the deep places or wander now lost in the shadows that have no paths; and at the coming of next year no more shall fare to the sea, but rather will we trust to ourselves and our city for the warding off of {Melko}[Morgoth]; and thereto have the Valar been of scant help aforetime.

Then Tuor's heart was heavy, and Voronw wept; and Tuor sat by the great fountain of the king and its splashing recalled the music of the waves, and his soul was troubled by the conches of Ulmo and he would return down the waters of Sirion to the sea. But Turgon, who knew that Tuor, mortal as he was, had the favour of the Valar, marking his stout glance and the power of his voice sent to him and bade him dwell in Gondolin and be in his favour, and abide even within the royal halls if he would, FG-TG-01 <GA for Tuor was held in honour, for his kindreds sake>.
Then Tuor, for he was weary, and that place was fair, said yea; and hence cometh the abiding of Tuor in Gondolin. FG-TG-01.5 <QS77
But in the warning of Ulmo Turgon heard again the words that were spoken before the departing Noldor on the coast of Araman long ago; and the fear of treason was wakened in Turgon's heart. Therefore in that time the very entrance to the hidden door in the Encircling Mountains was caused to be blocked up; and thereafter none went ever forth from Gondolin on any errand of peace or war, while that city stood. FG-T-25.33< QS77 Shut behind their pathless and enchanted hills they suffered none to enter, though he fled from Morgoth hate-pursued; and tidings of the lands beyond came to them faint and far, and they heeded them little. The spies of Angband sought for them in vain; and their dwelling was as a rumour, and secret that none could find.>

>Of all Tuor's deeds among the {Gondothlim}[Gondolindrim] the tales tell not,
Comments to my changes, most are repeated but I thought it might help to collect them here:
FG-T-23: This complete paragraph was already discussed and agreed. I add it only for completness.
FG-T-24: This marks only were the counsel of Ulmo (and the troule with it) begins.
FG-T-24.1: That Ulmo knowest of Gondolin is a given fact in our version, therefore part of this must go. But why gondowe took out so much he never explained.
FG-T-24.2: Earlier when he spoke to Tuor in Vinyamar Ulmo said that he did send Tuor against the will of the other Valar. Therefore he should not mention them here.
FG-T-24.3: The first part of the sentence was skipt by gondowe, but I think it should be kept.
FG-T-24.4: I put the warning first, to give it more wiegth.
FG-T-24.6 & FG-T-24.5: These two are back in the position they had have.
FG-T-24.55: If the voyage of Erendil ist he final goal, then if Turgon would follow Ulmos biding Turgon is to send him.
FG-T-24.57: I took this up. It is not absolutley necessary, but as Ulmo does know quite well that Turgon had send many meassangers without availe, he should ofer some help to make the quest less hopeless.
FG-T-24.77: This deals with Tuor's role. As we agreed that the most improtant part for Ulmo was the fathering of Earendil, it might be necessary to emphasis that Tuor was never supposed to leave Gondolin at once to search for an allaince with men. This was made clear in the Sketch.
FG-T-24.79: As FG-T-24.77 splited this addition I added this to make more clear where this text comes from.
FG-T-25: Okay we agreed to have only one answer from Turgon.
The editing marks are hereafter no longer numbered in a stright forward fashion, but stick to the text fragments to which they were first applied.
FG-T-24.8: Here I used a big part of Q30 which is the latest telling we have.
FG-T-24.9: As Ulmos counsel to war is back, he might also promise victory.
FG-T-24.95: Again we skip Turgons answer.
FG-T-24.6 & FG-T-24.65: Here at last we make the counsel explicit to leave Gondolin. The passage from Q30, QI add to make it more urgent.
FG-T-25.67: We lost that part of the greater danger if flight only was the course, but I thought it belongs here.
FG-T-24.91: I think that here is the right place to end Tuors mission. He has brought forward all choices and arguments that Ulmo could give. As wished in one long statement.
FG-T-25.3: If we want to put in FG-T-25.34 from Q30 with Maeglin speaking against Tuor, we need an intro here. And even so I am a bit reluctant to use that source QS77 is the best we can find and it is a nice echo of the words of Ulmo which come ultimatley from GA.
FG-T-25.31: At this point at last we know were the text from QS77 comes from.
FG-T-25.32: This change is questionable. It does bring the original text of Q30 to the text found in QS77. The text sound better to my ear, but we can consider it as a change for style only and reject it.
FG-T-25.35 & FG-T-25.36: Here I took together the answeres of Turgon.
FG-T-25.53: The ages are out of question. I wonder how they ever fited the time frame of LT.
FG-T-26: Not sure of this verys old change. It is rather one of style.
FG-GT-01 & FG-GT-01.5: This was already agreed upon.
FG-T-25.33: This we can probably leave out, but I found it very fitting as closer to the debate of Turgon and Tuor.

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Findegil
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