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Old 03-22-2005, 05:42 PM   #1
Findegil
King's Writer
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
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Narn I Chîn Húrin 1: Túrins Fostering

This is the first draft of an expaned version ot the Story of Túrin Turambar NA. Our basis text is: Unfinished Tales; part 1; The First Age ; chapter 2: The Narn i Hîn Húrin (Narn). All additions from other sources are marked.

For a easier discussion the text will be devided into three parts:
1. The Fostering of Túrin: Reaching from the intro to the Narn until the end of Dor-Curathol
2. Beleg & Falivirn: Takes the story until the Fall of Nargothrond
3. The End of the Narn

Part 1 corrospondes more or less to the part of the Narn given in Unfinished Tales up to the big break at the end of Of Mîm including what is given in the Appendix to the Narn

Part 2 does fill the break in the Narn as given in Unfinished Tales. In this part only we will try to take up parts of the old Lay of the Children of Húrin.

Part 3 is the End of the Narn as given in Unfinished Tales. And there is not much to add or to change in this part.

In addtion one thread will hold the general changes.

We have 4 groups of changes:

NA-zz: General changes given and discussed in the list below. These changes are taken up in the text, but they are not indicated by "editorial markers"

NA-RG-zz: These changes are semi general. They are normaly forced by a change in the nomuclature but could within the lines of a poem that are added not dealt with by simple replacment. The changed nomuclature is listed but not numbered with the general changes below.

NA-SL-zz: Changes done to make the storyline fit to the later sources. These editorial markers are also sometimes used when a change was not made that could or should be considered and discussed in view of the stroyline of a later text.

NA-TI-zz For text that is takenin from other sources since it was left out in the version given in the Unfinisched Tales.

NA-EX-zz For expansions taken from some other source to make the story more detailed. This also includes some changes made in the expansion, and texts takenin which I marked for easier reference.

Some conventions of my writing:
Normal Text is from the basic text that is mentioned above (when I change the basic-Text it will be mentioned)
Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks
{example} = text that should be deleted
[example] = normalised text, normaly only used for general changes
<source example> = additions with source information
example = text inserted for grammatical or metrical reason
/example/ = outline expansion
Normally if an inserted text includes the beginning of a new § these is indicated by a missing “>” at the end of the § and a missing “<” at the beginning of the next.


Quote:
Narn e·mbar Hador
Narn i Chîn Húrin
or
Narn e·’Rach Morgoth
The Tale of the Children of Húrin
NA-TI-01<Aelfwine & Dirhaval B Many songs are yet sung and many tales are yet told by the Elves in the Lonely Isle of the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, the Battle of Unnumbered Tears, in which Fingon fell and the flower of the Eldar withered. But here I will tell as I may a Tale of Men that Dirhaval of the Havens made in the days of {Earendel}[Eärendil] long ago. Narn i Chîn Húrin he called it, the Tale [Footnote: narn among the Elves signifies a tale that is told in verse to be spoken and not sung.] of the Children of Húrin, which is the longest of all the lays that are now remembered {in Eressea}[by the Elves], though it was made by a man.
For such was Dirhaval. He came of the House of Hador, it is said, and the glory and sorrow of that House was nearest to his heart. Dwelling at the Havens of Sirion, he gathered there all the tidings and lore that he could; for in the last days of Beleriand chere came thither remnants out of all the countries, both Men and Elves: from Hithlum and Dor-lomin, from Nargothrond and Doriath, from Gondolin and the realms of the Sons of Fëanor in the east. NA-EX-01<Aelfwine & Dirhaval A From Mablung he learned much; and by fortune also he found a man named Andvír, and he was very old, but was the son of that Androg who was in the outlaw-band of Túrin, and alone survived the battle on the summit of Amon Rudh. Otherwise all that time between the flight of Túrin from Doriath and his coming to Nargothrond, and Túrin's deeds in those days, would have remained hidden, save the little that was remembered among the people of Nargothrond concerning such matters as Gwindor or Túrin ever revealed. In this way also the matter of Mîm and his later dealings with Húrin were made clear.>
This lay was all that Dirhaval ever made, but it was prized by the Eldar, for Dirhaval used the Grey-elven tongue, in which he had great skill. He used that mode of Elvish verse which is called NA-EX-02{[long space left in typescript]} <Aelfwine & Dirhaval A Minlamad thent / estent> which was of old proper to the narn; but though this verse mode is not unlike the verse NA-SL-01{of the English}[I know], I have rendered it NA-EX-03<editorial addition most often it> in prose, judging my skill too small to be at once scop and walhstod. Even so my task has been hard enough, and without the help of the Elves could not have been completed. I have not added to Dirhaval's tale, nor omitted from it anything that he told; neither have I changed the order of his history. But on matters that seemed of interest, or that were become dark with the passing of the years, I have made notes, whether within the tale or upon its margins, according to such lore as I found{ in Eressea}.>
NA-EX-04{The Childhood of Túrin}[* * *]
Hador Goldenhead was a lord of the Edain and well-beloved by the Eldar. …
NA-TI-01: The intro should be added. I tried the later text but the older one can also be considered.

NA-EX-01: Since we already agreed to use the info given in this passaage, I don’t see any good reason not to use it.

NA-EX-02: The name is only given in text A. It might need a linguistical check.

NA-SL-01: Since Aelfwine is no longer the trading person, we should deleat all references to English.

NA-EX-03: This is only needed if we take up parts from the old “Lay of the Children of Húrin” as I desiere to do.

NA-EX-04: I moved the sub-heading since what follows is by our additions much more than only Túrins childhood.


Quote:
Huor wedded Rían, the cousin of Morwen; she was the daughter of Belegund son of Bregolas. By hard fate was she born into such days, for she was gentle of heart and loved neither hunting nor war. Her love was given to trees and to the flowers of the wild, and she was a singer and a maker of songs. Two months only had she been wedded to Huor when he went with his brother to the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, and she never saw him again.{ 1}

NA-TI-02 <Sil77 At {this}the time [after the Dagor Bragollach] Húrin and Huor{, the sons of Galdor of Dor-lómin, were dwelling with the Haladin, for they were akin. In the days before the Dagor Bragollach those two houses of the Edain were joined at a great feast, when Galdor and Glóredhel the children of Hador Goldenhead were wedded to Hareth and Haldir the children of Halmir lord of the Haladin. Thus it was that the sons of Galdor} were fostered in Brethil by Haldir their uncle, according to the custom of Men in that time; and they went both to that battle with the Orcs NA-EX-05 <editorial addition when they came through the western pass>, even Huor, for he would not be restrained, though he was but thirteen years old. But being with a company that was cut off from …

But Maeglin, the King's sister-son, who was mighty in Gondolin, grieved not at all at their going, though he begrudged them the favour of the King, for he had no love for any of the kindred of Men; and he said to Húrin: “NA-TI-03 {The King's grace is greater than you know, and the law is become less stern than aforetime; or else no choice would be given you but to abide here to your life's end.} <GA; Appended Note 3 The king's grace to you is greater than ye know; and some might wonder wherefore the strict law is abated for two knave-children of Men. It would be safer if they had no choice but to abide here as our servants to their life's end.>”
Then Húrin answered him: “The King's grace is great indeed; but if our word is not enough, then we will swear oaths to you.” And the brothers swore … but he and many others guessed at the truth.>NA-EX-06<GA For both the oath of silence and the Eagles pointed to Turgon, men thought.>
NA-EX-07 <LQ2 Of the Union of {Maidros}[Maeðros]>
In the years after the Dagor Bragollach and the fall of Fingolfin the shadow of the fear of Morgoth lenghtened. NA-EX-08<GA {In this}[But in due] time {Maidros}[Maeðros] began those counsels for the raising of the fortunes of the Eldar that are called the Union of {Maidros}[Maeðros]. For new hope ran through the land, {because of the deeds of Beren and Lúthien,} and it seemed to many that Morgoth was not unconquerable, and that fear only gave him his power.> NA-EX-09<Q30 {But in those days}[Thus] {Maidros}[Maeðros] son of Fëanor lifted up his heart, perceiving that Morgoth was not unassailable; for the deeds of Beren and Lúthien and the breaking of the towers of Sauron were sung in many songs throughout Beleriand. Yet Morgoth would destroy them all, one by one, if they could not again unite, and make a new league and common council. Therefore he planned the Union of {Maidros}[Maeðros], and he planned wisely.>
NA-EX-10<QS Yet the oath of Fëanor and the evil deeds that it had wrought did injury to the design of {Maidros}[Maeðros], and he had less aid than should have been. Orodreth would not march from Nargothrond at the word of any son of Fëanor, because of the deeds of {Celegorn}[Celegorm] and Curufin. Thence came only a small company, whom Orodreth suffered to go, since they could not endure to be idle when their kinsfolk were gathering for war. Gwindor was their leader, son of Guilin, a very valiant prince; but they took the badge of the house of Fingolfin, and marched beneath the banners of Fingon, and came never back, save one.
From Doriath came little help. For {Maidros}[Maeðros] and his brethren, being constrained by their oath, had before sent to Thingol and reminded him with haughty words of their claim, summoning him to yield to them the Silmaril, or become their enemy. Melian counselled him to surrender the jewel, and perchance he would have done so, but their words were proud and threatening, and he was wroth, thinking of the anguish of Lúthien and the blood of Beren whereby the jewel had been won, despite the malice of {Celegorn}[Celegorm] and Curufin. And every day that he looked upon the jewel, the more his heart desired to keep it for ever. Such was its power. Therefore he sent back the messengers of {Maidros}[Maeðros] with scornful words. {Maidros}[Maeðros] answered naught, for he had now begun to devise the league and union of the Elves; but {Celegorn}[Celegorm] and Curufin vowed openly to slay Thingol and destroy his folk, if they came victorious from war, and the jewel were not surrendered of free will. For this reason Thingol fortified the marches of his realm, and went not to war, nor any out of Doriath save Mablung, and Beleg who could not be restrained.>
NA-EX-11<GABut {Maidros}[Maeðros] had the help of the Naugrim, both in armed force and in great store of weapons; and he gathered together again all his brethren and all the folk that would follow them; and the men of Bor and of Ulfang were marshalled and trained for war, and given fair arms, and they summoned yet more of their kinsfolk out of the East. And in Hithlum Fingon, ever the friend of {Maidros}[Maeðros], prepared for war, taking counsel with Himring. To Gondolin also the tidings came to the hidden king, Turgon, and in secret also he prepared for great battle. And {Haleth}[Halmir] gathered his folk in Brethil, and they whetted their axes; but he died of age ere the war came, and {Hundor}[Haldir] his son ruled his people.> NA-EX-12<QS The treacherous shaft of Curufin that wounded Beren was remembered among Men. Therefore of the folk of Haleth that dwelt in Brethil only the half came forth, and they went not to join {Maidros}[Maeðros], but came rather to Fingon{ and Turgon} in the West.>
{But}Thus in the four hundred and sixty-ninth year after the return of the Noldor to Middle-earth there was a stirring of hope among Elves and Men; for the rumour ran among them of the deeds of Beren and Lúthien, and the putting to shame of Morgoth even upon his throne in Angband, and some said that Beren and Lúthien yet lived, or had returned from the Dead. In that year also the great counsels of {Maedhros}[Maeðros] were almost complete, and {with the reviving strength of the Eldar and the Edain the advance of Morgoth was stayed, and the Orcs were driven back from Beleriand.} NA-EX-13<GA {In}in the spring of this year {Maidros}[Maeðros] made the first trial of his strength though his plans were not yet full-wrought. In which he erred, not concealing his stroke until it could be made suddenly with all strength, as Morgoth had done. For the Orcs indeed were driven out of Beleriand once more, and even Dorthonion was freed for a while, so that the frontiers of the Noldor were again as they were before the Bragollach, save that the Anfauglith was now a desert possessed by neither side. But Morgoth NA-EX-14<Q30 withdrew before them and called back his servants; for he was aware of all that was done> ; and being warned of the uprising of the Eldar and the Elf-friends he took counsel against them, and he sent forth many spies and workers of treason among them, as he was the better able now to do, for the faithless men of his secret allegiance were yet deep in the secrets of Fëanor's sons. >Then some began to speak of victories to come, and of redressing the Battle of the Bragollach, when {Maedhros}[Maeðros] should lead forth the united hosts, and drive Morgoth underground, and seal the Doors of Angband.
But the wiser were uneasy still, fearing that {Maedhros}[Maeðros] revealed his growing strength too soon, and that Morgoth would be given time enough to take counsel against him. "Ever will some new evil be hatched in Angband beyond the guess of Elves and Men," they said. And in the autumn of that year, to point their words, there came an ill wind from the North under leaden skies. The Evil Breath it was called, for it was pestilent; and many sickened and died in the fall of the year in the northern lands that bordered on the Anfauglith, and they were for the most part the children or the rising youth in the houses of Men.
NA-EX-15<moved from above The Childhood of Túrin>
In that year Túrin son of Húrin was yet only five years old, and Urwen his sister was three in the beginning of spring. …
NA-TI-02: The footnote does refer to an account of the sejourne of Húrin and Hour in Gondolin which was diecribed in HoME 11. I think that we should add it here. As I have done. (See also NA-TI-04.) I have here taken the text from Sil77 following the appended note 3 to the Grey Annals.

NA-EX-05: We do not know how this was dealt with inthe original text but in Sill77 the reference of “that battle” is clear from the circumstances but in this place it is not.

NA-TI-03: This changes s mentioned in GA.

NA-EX-06: This sentence was not in the original Narn version, but I think we should add it.

NA-EX-07 - NA-EX-14: Here we start with the incooperation of the material concerning the Fifth Battle. Since the Narn will be the only text in The Translation from the Elvish that does discribe that battle we have to add more then only the battle itself. Therefor I started here with a subheading taken from LQS. The following text is a reconstruction of the text edited by Christopher Tolkien for Sil77 from its original sources incooperated into the Narn were there are some faint hints of that action of Maedhros.

NA-EX-15 From this place onward the Narn did return to Túrin and therefore I think here is the apropirate place for this subheading.


Quote:
But Morwen and Túrin stood still by the doors, until far away they heard the faint call of a single horn on the wind: Húrin had passed over the shoulder of the hill, beyond which be could see his house no more.
NA-EX-16 {The Words of Húrin and Morgoth} <Sil77 Of the Fifth Battle: Nirnaeth Arnoediad>
Many songs are sung and many tales are told by the Elves of the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, the Battle of Unnumbered Tears, in which Fingon fell and the flower of the Eldar withered. If all were retold a man's life would not suffice for the hearing{; 2}NA-TI-04<GA; appended Note 2. Here then shall be recounted {only}[especially] those deeds which bear upon the fate of the House of Hador and the children of Húrin the Steadfast.
Having gathered at length all the strength that he could {Maedhros}[Maeðros] appointed a day, the morning of Midsummer. On that day the trumpets of the Eldar greeted the rising of the Sun, … Upon the right were stationed the host of Dor-lomin and all the valour of Húrin and Huor his brother, and to them had come NA-EX-17<editorial addition Haldir and> Hundar of Brethil, their kinsman, with many men of the woods.
Then Fingon looked east and his elven-sight saw far off a dust and the glint of steel like stars in a mist, …

Then in the plain of Anfauglith, on the fourth day of the war, there began the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, all the sorrow of which no tale can contain. Of all that befell in the eastward battle [b]NA-EX-18[b]<editorial addition only a little should be told here>: {of the routing of Glaurung the Drake by the Naugrim of Belegost;} NA-EX-19<GA {But even as}When the vanguard of {Maidros}[Maeðros] came upon{ the Orcs}, Morgoth loosed his {last}[greatest] strength{, and Angband was emptied}. There came wolves, and wolfriders, and there came Balrogs{ a thousand}, and there came worms and drakes, and Glaurung, Father of Dragons. And the strength and terror of the Great Worm were now grown great indeed, and Elves and Men withered before him; and he came {between}[upon] the hosts of {Maidros}[Maeðros]{ and Fingon} and swept them apart.> NA-EX-20< GA
Last of all the eastern force to stand firm NA-EX-21<editorial additionagainst the worms and drakes> were the Enfeng of Belegost, and thus won renown. Now the Naugrim withstood fire more hardily than either Elves or Men, and it was the custom moreover of the Enfeng to wear great masks in battle hideous to look upon, which stood them in good stead against the drakes. And but for them Glaurung and his brood would have withered all that was left of the Noldor. But the Naugrim made a circle about him when he assailed them, and even his mighty armour was not full proof against the blows of their great axes; and when in his rage he turned and struck down Azaghâl of Belegost and crawled over him, with his last stroke Azaghâl drove a knife into his belly and so wounded him that he fled the field and the beasts of Angband in dismay followed after him. Had Azaghâl but borne a sword great woe would have been spared to the Noldor that after befell but his knife went not deep enough. But then the Enfeng raised up the body of Azaghâl and bore it away; and with slow steps they walked behind, singing a dirge in their deep voices, as it were a funeral pomp in their own country, and gave no heed more to their foes; and indeed none dared to stay them.
>{ of the treachery of the Easterlings and the overthrow of the host of Maedhros and} NA-EX-22<GA Yet neither by wolf, balrog, nor dragon would Morgoth have achieved his end, but for the treachery of Men. In this hour the plots of Ulfang were revealed; for many of the Easterlings turned and fled, their hearts being filled with lies and fear; but the sons of Ulfang went over suddenly to the side of Morgoth and drove in upon the rear of the sons of Fëanor. And in the confusion that they wrought they came near to the standard of {Maidros}[Maeðros]. They reaped not the reward that Morgoth promised them, for Maglor slew Uldor the Accursed, the leader in treason, and Bor and his sons slew Ulfast and Ulwarth ere they themselves were slain. But new strength of evil men came up that Uldor had summoned and kept hidden in the eastern hills, and the host of {Maidros}[Maeðros] being assailed now on three sides, by the Orcs, and the beasts, and by the Swarthy Men, was dispersed and fled this way and that. Yet fate saved the sons of Fëanor, and though all were wounded, none were slain, for they drew together and gathering a remnant of Noldor and of the Naugrim about them they hewed a way out of the battle and escaped towards Mount Dolmed.> Of the flight of the Sons of Fëanor, no more is here said.
In the west the host of Fingon retreated over the sands , and Haldir lord of the Haladin was slain in the rearguard; with him fell most of the Men of Brethil, and came never back to their woods. …

… Then Gothmog bound him and dragged him to Angband with mockery.
Thus ended Nirnaeth Arnoediad, as the sun went down beyond the sea. Night fell in Hithlum, and there came a great storm of wind out of the West.

Great indeed now was the triumph of Morgoth; and his design was accomplished in a manner after his own heart; for Men took the lives of Men, and betrayed the Eldar, and fear and hatred were aroused among those that should have been united against him. From that day indeed began the estrangement of Elves from Men, save only from those of the Three Houses of Beor, Hador, and Haleth, and their children.
The March of {Maidros}[Maeðros] was no more. The fell sons of Fëanor were broken and wandered far away in the woods as leaves before the wind. The Gorge of Aglon was filled with Orcs, and the Hill of Himring was garrisoned by soldiers of Angband; the pass of Sirion was pierced NA-EX-22.5{ and Tol-sirion retaken and its dread towers rebuilt}. All the gates of Beleriand were in the power of Morgoth. The realm of Fingon was no more. To Hithlum came back never one of Fingon's host, nor any of the Men of Hador, nor any tidings of the battle and the fate of their lords.> NA-EX-23<GA And Morgoth now broke his pledges to the Easterlings that had served him, and denied to them the rich lands of Beleriand which they coveted, and he sent away these evil folk into Hithlum, and there commanded them to dwell. And little though they now loved their new king, yet they despised the remnant of the folk of Hador (the aged and the women and the children for the most part), and they oppressed them, and took their lands and goods, and wedded their women by force, and enslaved their children. And those of the Grey-elves that had dwelt there fled into the mountains, or were taken to the mines of the North and laboured there as thralls.>
NA-EX-24<GA Now the Orcs in token of the great triumph of Angband gathered with great labour all the bodies of their enemies that were slain, and all their harness and weapons, and they piled them, Elves and Men, in a great hill in the midst of the Anfauglith. {Haud-ina-Nengin}[Haudh-en-Nirnaeth] was the name of that mound, and it was like unto a hill. But thither alone in all the desert the grass came, and grew again long and green, and thereafter no Orc dared tread upon the earth beneath which the swords of the Noldor crumbled into rust.>
NA-EX-25<GA Doriath indeed remained, and Nargothrond was hidden, and Círdan held the Havens; but Morgoth gave small heed to them as yet, either for he knew little of them, or because their hour was not yet come in the deep purposes of his malice. But one thought troubled him deeply, and marred his triumph; Turgon had escaped the net, whom he most desired to take. For Turgon came of the great house of Fingolfin, and was now by right King of all the Noldor, and Morgoth feared and hated most the house of Fingolfin, because they had scorned him in Valinor, and had the friendship of Ulmo, and because of the wounds that Fingolfin gave him in battle. Moreover of old his eye had lighted on Turgon, and a dark shadow fell on his heart, foreboding that, in some time that lay yet hidden in doom, from Turgon ruin should come to him.>
NA-EX-26<moved from above The Words of Húrin and Morgoth>
{but}But now is to be told{ only} of what befell Húrin son of Galdor, Lord of Dor-lómin, when beside the stream of Rivil he was taken at last alive by the command of Morgoth, and carried off to Angband.
NA-EX-16: Here I added a further subheading taken from LQS. I do not believe that all the battle was described under the subheading “The Words of Húrin and Morgoth” as the Narn suggests. But however that may be we need the subheading I think.

NA-TI-04 & NA-EX-18 - NA-EX-22: In the Narn paper there was here an account of the battle which is mentioned in the Note 2 to the Narn and discribed in the appended note 2 to the Grey Annals. This does corosponds with the chapterstructer I developed (see the thread in the public forum). If we follow this the sub-headings must be changed. But while working closer on the text then I did before, I found some changes in the subheadings of the Narn are in order too (as I have done in the text). The problem with this account of the Battle is that it does contradict all earlier once and does not provide any details of the eastern battle which we have to integrate. At least the story of Azaghâl woundig Glaurung was clearly still present when the Narn was written. I have first recreated the text of the Narn as good as possible and then done what I could with additions from other sources. Thus the course of the battle is based on the Narn version, but we must consider these changed course ot the battle. It might prove to be unworkable.

NA-EX-17: See the Table of the house of Haleth and the discussion of the matter in LQS.

NA-EX-22.5: This is contradicting the Tale of Berenand Lúthien were it is told that the grave of Finrod was never disspoiled as long as Beleriand stood. I do not know for sure which version is later, but I think it is the one in Beren and Lúthien.

NA-EX-23 - NA-EX-25: These are again additions necessary because this is the only text in our worke describing these period of time.

NA-EX-26: Here we return tho the Narn and thus this seems the right place for the subheading.


Quote:
… All the people of Húrin's homelands that could work or serve any purpose they took away, even young girls and boys, and the old they killed or drove out to starve. But they dared not yet lay hands on the Lady of Dor-lómin, or thrust her from her house; for the word ran among them that she was perilous, and a witch who had dealings with the white-fiends: for so they named the Elves, hating them, but fearing them more.{ 3}NA-TI-05 <NA; Note 3 {In another version of the text it is made explicit that Morwen did indeed have}/And indeed Morwen had/ dealings with the Eldar who had secret dwellings in the mountains not far from her house. {"}But they could tell her no news. None had seen Húrin's fall. {'}["]He was not with Fingon,{'}["] they said; {'}["]he was driven south with Turgon, but if any of his folk escaped it was in the wake of the host of Gondolin. But who knows? For the Orcs have piled all the slain together, and search is vain, even if any dared to go to the Haudh-en-Nirnaeth.{'}"> For this reason {they}the Easterlings also feared and avoided the mountains, in which many of the Eldar had taken refuge, especially in the south of the land; and after plundering and harrying {the Easterlings}they drew back northwards. …
NA-TI-05: As before I think we should take the content of the note into the body of the text.


Quote:
Then a thought came to him, and he summoned Túrin, an told him that Morwen had sent to her son a mighty thing, the heirloom of his fathers. "Take now the Dragonhead of the North," he said, "and when the time comes wear it well." But Túrin was yet too young to lift the helm, and he heeded it not because of the sorrow of his heart.
[* * *]
NA-EX-27 <GA In this year Morgoth having rested his strength, and given heed to his own hurts and great losses, renewed the assault upon Beleriand, which now lay open to him; and the orcs and wolves passed far into the lands, even as far as the borders of Ossiriand upon one side, and Nan Tathren upon the other, and none were safe in field or wild.
Many now fled to the Havens and took refuge behind Círdan's walls, and the mariner folk passed up and down the coast and harried the enemy with swift landings. Therefore the first assault of Morgoth was against Círdan; and ere the winter was come he sent great strength over Hithlum and {Nivrost}[Nevrast], and they came down the Rivers Brithon and Nenning, and ravaged all the Falas, and besieged the walls of Brithombar and Eglarest. Smiths and miners and masters of fire they brought with them, and set up great engines, and though they were stoutly resisted they broke the walls at last. Then the Havens were laid in ruin, and the Tower of {Ingildon}[Nimrais] cast down, and all Círdan's folk slain or enthralled, save those that went aboard and escaped by sea and some few that fled north to Mithrim.
Then Círdan took his remnant by ship, and they sailed to the Isle of Balar, and made a refuge for all that could come thither. For they kept also a foothold at the mouths of Sirion, and there many light swift ships lay hid in the creeks and waters where the reeds were dense as a forest. And when Turgon heard of this he sent again his messengers to Sirion's Mouths, and besought the aid of Círdan the Shipwright. And at his bidding Círdan let build seven swift ships, and they sailed out into the West, and were never heard of again - save one and the last. Now the captain of this ship was Voronwe, and he toiled in the sea for many years, until returning at last in despair his ship foundered in a great storm within sight of land, and he alone survived, for Ulmo saved him from the wrath of Ossë, and the waves bore him up and cast him ashore in {Nivrost}[Nevrast].>
Túrin in Doriath
In the years of his childhood in the kingdom of Doriath Túrin was watched over by Melian, though he saw her seldom. But there was a maiden named Nellas, who lived in the woods; and at Melian's bidding she would follow Túrin if he strayed in the forest, and often she met him there, as it were by chance. From Nellas Túrin learned much concerning the ways and the wild things of Doriath, and she taught him to speak the Sindarin tongue after the manner of the ancient realm, older, and more courteous, and richer in beautiful words.{ 6} Thus for a little while his mood was lightened, until he fell again under shadow, and that friendship passed like a morning of spring. For Nellas did not go to Menegroth, and was unwilling ever to walk under roofs of stone; so that as Túrin's boyhood passed and he turned his thoughts to the deeds of men, he saw her less and less often, and at last called for her no more{.} NA-TI-06<NA; Note 7; and always{Always} he sought in all faces of women the face of Lalaith.> But she watched over him still, though now she remained hidden.{ 7}
Nine years Túrin dwelt in the halls of Menegroth. …
NA-EX-27: This is not the perfect place for the fall of the Havens, but I could find no better one, and it must betold since otherwise the refference to Arminas and Gelmir would be obscure. Maybe an editorial brigde is in order here (like: “Now it most been told that in this year ...”) or an sub-heading like “The Ruin of the Falas”

NA-TI-06: As before I think we should take the content of the note into the body of the text.


Quote:
… Then Túrin spoke again. "Do you take me to be your captain? Then I will lead you first away into the wild far from the homes of Men. There we may find better fortune or not; but at the least we shall earn less hatred of our own kind.{"} NA-TI-07 <NA; Note 10 {In a variant text of this part of the story Túrin at this time} /I will now /declared to {the outlaws his}/to you my/ true name/: I am Túrin son Húrin/; and {he claimed that, being}/I claim to be/ by right the lord and judge of the People of Hador{, he had}/. Thus I have/ slain Forweg justly, since he was a man of Dor-lómin./"/ Then Algund, the old outlaw who had fled down Sirion from the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, said{ that Túrin's}/: "Your/ eyes {had}/have/ long reminded {him}/me/ of another whom {he}/I/ could not recall, and{ that} now {he}/I/ knew {him}/you/ for the son of Húrin. {"'}But he was a smaller man, small for his kin, though filled with fire; and his hair gold-red. You are dark, and tall. I see your mother in you, now that I look closer; she was of Bëor's people. What fate was hers, I wonder.{' '}/" "/I do not know,{'}/"/ said Túrin. {'}/"/No word comes out of the North.{'}">
Then all those that were of the People of Hador gathered to him, and took him as their captain; and the others with less good will agreed. And at once he led them away out of that country.{ 10}
NA-TI-07: Here we have again the dificult task to decied what we do with the content of the Note. I think we should includ it as I have done.


Quote:
… whom they could not see, and yet could not shake off; and they grew uneasy.{ 11}
NA-TI-07.5 <NA; note 11 {they}Túrin and his band remained in the Vale of Sirion{, and indeed that they were not far from their previous haunts at the time of the Orc-raid on the homes of the Woodmen. In one tentative version} they went away southwards and came to the country {"}above the Aelin-uial and the Fens of Sirion{"; but}/. But/ the men {becoming}became discontented in that {"}harbourless land{",}/. Thus/ Túrin was persuaded to lead them back to the woodlands south of {Teiglin}[Taeglin] where he first encountered them.>
Not long afterwards, as Beleg had feared, …
NA-TI-07.5 Here again we need the content of the note to elaborate our text.


Quote:
… and his shadow passed from her.{ 12}
NA-TI-08 <Sil77 On the next day Beleg set out, and Túrin went with him a bowshot from the camp; but he said nothing. {'}["]Is it farewell, then, son of Húrin?{'}["] said Beleg. Then Túrin looked out westward, and he saw far off the great height of Amon Rûdh; and unwitting of what lay before him he answered: {'}["]You have said, seek me in Dimbar. But I say, seek for me on Amon Rûdh! Else, this is our last farewell.{'}["] Then they parted, in friendship, yet in sadness.
Now Beleg returned to the Thousand Caves, …

… suddenly his companions missed Beleg, and he returned to them no more.>
Of Mîm the Dwarf
After the departure of Beleg (and that was in the second summer after the flight of Túrin from Doriath){13} things went ill for the outlaws. …
NA-TI-08: This note surely must be followed!


Quote:
Upon the eastern side a broken land climbed slowly up to the high ridges among knots of birch and rowan, and ancient thorn-trees rooted in rock. About the lower slopes of Amon Rûdh there grew thickets of aeglos; but its steep grey head was bare, save for the red seregon that mantled the stone. NA-TI-08.5{ 14}[Footnote to the text: Aeglos, "snowthorn", is said to have been like furze (gorse), but larger, and with white flowers. Aeglos was also the name of the spear of Gil-galad. Seregon, "blood of stone", was a plant of the kind called in English "stonecrop"; it had flowers of a deep red.]
As the afternoon was waning the outlaws drew near to the roots of the hill. They came now from the north, for so Mîm had led them, and the light of the westering sun fell upon the crown of Amon Rûdh, and the seregon was all in flower.
"See! There is blood on the hill-top," said Andróg.
"Not yet," said Túrin.
* * *
The sun was sinking and the light was failing in the hollows. …

… They had come to Mîm's house, NA-EX-27.5 Bar-en-Nibin-noeg,{ 16} which only ancient tales in Doriath and Nargothrond remembered, and no Men had seen. …

… Only from the north, as they had come, could it be reached with ease by those who knew the way. NA-EX-27.7{ 17}[Footnote to the text: The tall cliff through which Mîm led them by the cleft that he called "the gate of the garth" was (it appears) the north edge of the shelf; the cliffs on the eastern and western sides were much more precipitous.] From the cleft a path led, and passed soon into a little grove of dwarfed birches growing about a clear pool in a rock-hewn basin. …

Then Mîm rose, and looked long at Túrin. "I hear you," he said. "You speak like a Dwarf-lord of old; and at that I marvel. Now my heart is cooled, though it is not glad. My own ransom I will pay, therefore: you may dwell here, if you will. But this I will add: he that loosed the shaft shall break his bow and his arrows and lay them at my son's feet; and he shall never take arrow nor bear bow again. If he does, he shall die by it. That curse I lay on him."
Andróg was afraid when he heard of this curse; and though he did so with great grudge, he broke his bow and his arrows and laid them at the dead Dwarf's feet. But as he came out from the chamber, he glanced evilly at Mîm, and muttered: "The curse of a Dwarf never dies, they say; but a Man's too may come home. NA-TI-09 {May he die with a dart in his throat!}<NA; note 18 May he lack a bow at need ere his end.>"{ 18}
That night they lay in the hall and slept uneasily …
NA-TI-08.5: This note needs to be discussed. As it stands it could have been and footnote to the original text by JRR Tolkien, but that is nowhere said. If we do not provide it, the info has to be used in in Index, if ever we provide one.

NA-EX-27.5: The name needs a checking. As the note 16 gives a lot of variants: “Elsewhere the Sindarin name of the Petty-Dwarves is given as Noegyth Nibin (so in The Silmarillion p. 204) and Nibin-Nogrim. The "high moorlands that rose between the Vales of Sirion and Narog", north-east of Nargothrond (p. 104 above) are more than once referred to as the Moors of the Nibin-noeg (or variants of this name).”

NA-EX-27.7: This note also looks a bit as if it was in the original, we must consider it as a footnote to our text.

NA-TI-09: I think since Mîm died not with an dart in his throat, it is better to use the alternative cruse. In my mind this form would not refer to Húrins coming to Nargothrond but to Mîm’s capture by the Orcs. But the reference of the cruse is a minor point.


Quote:
So began the abiding of Túrin son of Húrin in the halls of Mîm, in Bar-en-Danwedh, the House of Ransom.
NA-EX-28 <editorial addition Of Dor-Cúrathol>
NA-TI-10 <Ap Narn For a long while the life of the outlaws went well to their liking. …

Yet, and strange it seemed to them, with Túrin it went otherwise; and he became ever more friendly with the old Dwarf, and listened more and more to his counsels. In the winter that followed he would sit for long hours with Mîm, listening to his lore and the tales of his life; NA-TI-11 <Sil77 {For}for Mîm came of Dwarves that were banished in ancient days from the great Dwarf-cities of the east, and long before the return of Morgoth they wandered westward into Beleriand; but they became diminished in stature and in smith-craft, and they took to lives of stealth, walking with bowed shoulders and furtive steps. Before the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost came west over the mountains the Elves of Beleriand knew not what these others were, and they hunted them, and slew them; but afterwards they let them alone, and they were called Noegyth Nibin, the Petty-Dwarves, in the Sindarin tongue. They loved none but themselves, and if they feared and hated the Orcs, they hated the Eldar no less, and the Exiles most of all; for the Noldor, they said, had stolen their lands and their homes. Long ere King Finrod Felagund came over the Sea, the caves of Nargothrond were discovered by them, and by them its delving was begun; and beneath the crown of Amon Rûdh, the Bald Hill, the slow hands of the Petty-Dwarves had bored and deepened the caves through the long years that they dwelt there, untroubled by the Grey-elves of the woods. But now at last they had dwindled and died out of Middle-earth, all save Mîm and his two sons; and Mîm was old even in the reckoning of Dwarves, old and forgotten. And in his halls the smithies were idle, and the axes rusted, and their name was remembered only in ancient tales of Doriath and Nargothrond.> {nor did} Túrin did not rebuke him if he spoke ill of the Eldar. Mîm seemed well pleased, and showed much favour to Túrin in return; him only would he admit to his smithy at times, and there they would talk softly together. NA-EX-28.5<Narn, Note 19 /Thus Túrin did learn /that there {were}[had been] ingots of gold disguised as roots/ in Mîm’s sack when they had captured him/, and {refers to}/ that/ Mîm {seeking}/had at that day sought/ {"}for old treasures of a dwarf-house near the 'flat stones'{"}.> Less pleased were the Men; and Andróg looked on with a jealous eye.>

NA-TI-12 <Sil77 But when the year drew on to midwinter, snow came down from the north heavier than they had known it in the river-vales, and Amon Rûdh was covered deep; and they said that the winters worsened in Beleriand as the power of Angband grew.> NA-EX-29 <Ap Narn {that through}Because of the improvidence of the outlaws food became short in Bar-en-Danwedh during the winter, and Mîm begrudged them the edible roots from his store{;}.>NA-EX-30 <Ap Narn At this time Andróg, seeking for Mîm's secret store of food, became lost in the caves, and found a hidden stair that led out on to the flat summit of Amon Rûdh/; but he did not at that time tell anybody of it./> NA-TI-13 <Sil77 Then only the hardiest dared stir abroad; and some fell sick, and all were pinched with hunger.> NA-EX-31 <Ap Narn {therefore}Therefore in the beginning of the year they went out on a hunting foray from the stronghold.> NA-EX-32 <Ap Narn And {either} during the foray just mentioned,{ or on a later occasion}, Andróg, having taken up again bow and arrows in defiance of Mîm's curse, was wounded by a poisoned shaft,> NA-EX-33 <Ap Narn {Beleg, approaching Amon Rûdh, came upon their tracks, and either trailed them to a camp which they were forced to make in a sudden snowstorm, or followed them back to Bar-en-Danwedh and slipped in after them.}/and a sudden snowstrom forced them to make a camp in the wild./> NA-TI-14 <Sil77 But in the dim dusk of a winter's day there appeared suddenly among them a man, as it seemed, of great bulk and girth, cloaked and hooded in white; and he walked up to the fire without a word. And when men sprang up in fear, he laughed, and threw back his hood, and beneath his wide cloak he bore a great pack; and in the light of the fire Túrin looked again on the face of Beleg Cúthalion.>
NA-EX-34 <Ap Narn Beleg, appraoching Amon Rûdh, {came}had come upon their tracks, and{ either} trailed them to {a}the camp{ which they were forced to make in a sudden snowstorm, or followed them back to Bar-en-Danwedh and slipped in after them}.>NA-TI-15 <Sil77 Thus Beleg returned once more to Túrin, and their meeting was glad; and with him he brought out of Dimbar the Dragon-helm of Dor-lómin, thinking that it might lift Túrin's thought again above his life in the wilderness as the leader of a petty company.
But still Túrin would not return to Doriath; and Beleg yielding to his love against his wisdom remained with him, and did not depart, and in that time he laboured much for the good of Túrin's company. Those that were hurt or sick he tended, and gave to them the lembas of Melian{;}>. NA-EX-35 <Ap Narn {It may be mentioned here that when}When Beleg brought out the lembas from his pack {(see The Silmarillion pp. 202, 204) Túrin refused it: The}the silver leaves were red in the firelight; and when Túrin saw the seal his eyes darkened. "What have you there?" he said.
"The greatest gift that one who loves you still has to give," answered Beleg. "Here is lembas, the waybread of the Eldar, that no Man yet has tasted."
"The Helm of my fathers I take," said Túrin, "with good will for your keeping; but I will not receive gifts out of Doriath."
"Then send back your sword and your arms," said Beleg. "Send back also the teaching and fostering of your youth. And let your men die in the desert to please your mood. Nonetheless, this way-bread was a gift not to you but to me, and I may do with it as I will. Eat it not, if it sticks in your throat; but others here may be more hungry and less proud."
Then Túrin was abashed, and in that matter overcame his pride.> NA-TI-15.3 <Sil77 {and they}And his man were quickly healed, for though the Grey-elves were less in skill and knowledge than the Exiles from Valinor, in the ways of the life of Middle-earth they had a wisdom beyond the reach of Men.> NA-EX-36 <Ap Narn Andróg was cured of this wound by Beleg, but it seems that his dislike and distrust of the Elf was not thereby mitigated; and Mîm's hatred of Beleg became all the fiercer, for he had thus "undone" his curse upon Andróg. "It will bite again," he said. It came into Mîm's mind that if he also ate the lembas of Melian he would renew his youth and grow strong again; and since he could not come at it by stealth he feigned sickness and begged it of his enemy. When Beleg refused it to him the seal was set upon Mîm's hatred, and all the more because of Túrin's love for the Elf.>
NA-TI-15.7 <Sil77 {And because}Because Beleg was strong and enduring, farsighted in mind as in eye, he came to be held in honour among the outlaws; but the hatred of Mîm for the Elf that had come into Bar-en-Danwedh grew ever greater, and he sat with Ibun his son in the deepest shadows of his house, speaking to none. But Túrin paid now little heed to the Dwarf; and when winter passed, and spring came, they had sterner work to do.>

NA-TI-16 <Sil77 Who knows now the counsels of Morgoth? Who can measure the reach of his thought, who had been Melkor, mighty among the Ainur of the Great Song, and sat now, a dark lord upon a dark throne in the North, weighing in his malice all the tidings that came to him, and perceiving more of the deeds and purposes of his enemies than even the wisest of them feared, save only Melian the Queen? To her often the thought of Morgoth reached out, and there was foiled.>
NA-TI-17 <Sil77 And now again the might of Angband was moved; and as the long fingers of a groping hand the forerunners of his armies probed the ways into Beleriand. Through Anach they came, and Dimbar was taken, and all the north marches of Doriath. Down the ancient road they came that led through the long defile of Sirion, past the isle where Minas Tirith of Finrod had stood, and so through the land between Malduin and Sirion, and on through the eaves of Brethil to the Crossings of {Teiglin}[Taeglin]. Thence the road went on into the Guarded Plain; but the Orcs did not go far upon it, as yet, for there dwelt now in the wild a terror that was hidden, and upon the red hill were watchful eyes of which they had not been warned. For Túrin put on again the Helm of Hador; and far and wide in Beleriand the whisper went, under wood and over stream and through the passes of the hills, saying that the Helm and Bow that had fallen in Dimbar had arisen again beyond hope. Then many who went leaderless, dispossessed but undaunted, took heart again, and came to seek the Two Captains. Dor-Cúarthol, the Land of Bow and Helm, was in that time named all the region between {Teiglin}[Taeglin] and the west march of Doriath; and Túrin named himself anew, Gorthol, the Dread Helm, and his heart was high again.> NA-EX-37 <Ap Narn Túrin received gladly all who came to him, but by the counsel of Beleg he admitted no newcomer to his refuge upon Amon Rûdh (and that was now named Echad i Sedryn, Camp of the Faithful); the way thither only those of the Old Company knew and no others were admitted. But other guarded camps and forts were established round about: in the forest eastward, or in the highlands, or in the southward fens, from Methed-en-glad ("the End of the Wood") to Bar-erib some leagues south of Amon Rûdh; and from all these places men could see the summit of Amon Rûdh, and by signals receive tidings and commands.>
NA-EX-38 <Ap Narn {It is several times emphasized that }Beleg remained throughout opposed to Túrin's grand design, although he supported him;{ that} it seemed to him that the Dragon-helm had worked otherwise with Túrin than he had hoped; and{ that} he foresaw with a troubled mind what the days to come would bring. Scraps of his words with Túrin on these matters are preserved. {In one of these, they}They sat in the stronghold of Echad i Sedryn together, and Túrin said to Beleg:
"Why are you sad, and thoughtful? …

… and even help with needful things."
In another brief passage of speech between them Túrin replied to Beleg's warnings of the frailty of his power in these words:
"I wish to rule a land; but not this land. Here I desire only to gather strength. To my father's land in Dor-lómin my heart turns, and thither I shall go when I may.">
NA-EX-39 <Ap Narn In this way, before the summer had passed, the following of Túrin was swelled to a great force; and the power of Angband was thrown back. Word of this came even to Nargothrond, and many there grew restless, saying that if an Outlaw could do such hurt to the Enemy, what might not the Lord of Narog do. But Orodreth would not change his counsels. In all things he followed Thingol, with whom be exchanged messengers by secret ways; and he was a wise lord, according to the wisdom of those who considered first their own people, and how long they might preserve their life and wealth against the lust of the North. Therefore he allowed none of his people to go to Túrin, and he sent messengers to say to him that in all that he might do or devise in his war he should not set foot in the land of Nargothrond, nor drive Orcs thither. But help other than in arms he offered to the Two Captains, should they have need (and in this, it is thought, he was moved by Thingol and Melian).> NA-TI-18 <Sil77 {In Menegroth, and in the deep halls of Nargothrond, and} {even}Even in the hidden realm of Gondolin, the fame of the deeds of the Two Captains was heard; and in Angband also they were known. Then Morgoth laughed, for now by the Dragon-helm was Húrin's son revealed to him again; and ere long Amon Rûdh was ringed with spies.>
NA-EX-40 <Ap Narn It is also asserted that Morgoth for a time withheld his hand and made mere feints of attack, {"}So that by easy victory the confidence of these rebels might become overweening; as it proved indeed.{"}>
NA-TI-19 <Sil77 In the waning of the year Mîm the Dwarf and Ibun his son went out from Bar-en-Danwedh to gather roots in the wild for their winter store; and they were taken captive by Orcs. Then for a second time Mîm promised to guide his enemies by the secret paths to his home on Amon Rûdh; but yet he sought to delay the fulfilment of his promise, and demanded that Gorthol should not be slain. Then the Ore-captain laughed, and he said to Mîm: {'}["]Assuredly Túrin son of Húrin shall not be slain.{'}["]
Thus was Bar-en-Danwedh betrayed, for the Orcs came upon it by night at unawares, guided by Mîm. There many of Túrin's company were slain as they slept; but some fleeing by an inner stair came out upon the hill-top, and there they fought until they fell, and their blood flowed out upon the seregon that mantled the stone.> NA-EX-41 <Ap Narn It was only then that {he} [Andróg] revealed to Túrin the existence of the inner stair; and he was one of those who came by that way to the summit. There he is said to have fought more valiantly than any, NA-SL-02 but he fell at last{ mortally} wounded by an arrow; and thus the curse of Mîm {was fulfilled.}[came on him a second time; but alone of all]> <Aelfwine & Dirhaval A the outlaw-band of Túrin{, and alone}he survived the battle on the summit of Amon Rudh.> NA-TI-20 <Sil77 But a net was cast over Túrin as he fought, and he was enmeshed in it, and overcome, and led away.
And at length when all was silent again Mîm crept out of the shadows of his house; and as the sun rose over the mists of Sirion he stood beside the dead men on the hill-top. But he perceived that not all those that lay there were dead; for by one his gaze was returned, and he looked in the eyes of Beleg the Elf. Then with hatred long-stored Mîm stepped up to Beleg, and drew forth the sword Anglachel that lay beneath the body of one that had fallen beside him; but Beleg stumbling up seized back the sword and thrust it at the Dwarf, and Mîm in terror fled wailing from the hill-top. And Beleg cried after him: {'}["]The vengeance of the house of Hador will find you yet!{'}["]>
NA-EX-28: This is the only subheading that I took out of nowhere. I don’t think we can go without it I could find any better.

NA-TI-10: What follows is a wild mixture of text from the appendix of the Narn and the Sil77. I hope it can be follwoed how it is builded.

NA-TI-11: I can already hear Aiwendil ask for the original source of this passage. I don’t think we can find it. It is based on Quendi and Eldar but it is heavily edited to make it fitting. We could try to make the same again, but I don’t see why we should invent the wheel a second time.

NA-EX-28.5: I found that the info from note 19 should be incooperated and this seemed the right place. In reading it now, I find that the reference to Túrins band and Andróg reads a bit strange. Maybe we can find a beter way to put these passages together.

NA-TI-12 - NA-TI-15.7: Belegs arrival must again be build out of many sources. The Sil77 provides the structure of the narrative.

NA-EX-29 - NA-EX-36: The Appendix to the Narn gives some further deatils.

NA-EX-29: The story of the raid is the best solution we have for Beleg finding them. But here we take at first only the reason for it to emphasys their situation.

NA-EX-30: Now here it is time for Andróg to search some food and discover the stair.

NA-EX-31 & NA-EX-32: Now here we come to the fated foray and I read the passage so that Andróg was wounded in that foray.

NA-EX-33 & NA-EX-34: I think we must decied which version (the camp in the wild or Bar-en-Danwedh we take and delete the other one.

NA-EX-35: In accordance to the Appendix to the Narn this bit about the Lemabas must be palced here.

NA-EX-36: The healing of the wound is thus associated with the healing of Túrins Man by Beleg in general.

NA-EX-37 - NA-EX-40: These are the best sources for the story of Dor-Curathol. The arangement must be discussed and also the details of editing.

NA-EX-41: As I put these passages together the revealation of the stair by Andróg is told some what in retrospect, but that was for the moment the best I found.

NA-SL-02: It is atested in Aelfwine and Dirhaval that Andróg survied, so we must make a change here.

That’s all for part 1 in the moment.

Respectfully
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Old 03-22-2005, 10:24 PM   #2
Maédhros
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In NA-TI-01, there are some accents that are missing: Dírhaval, Húrin, Andvír, Rûdh and Túrin.
I noticed that you erased the references to Eressëa and changed it to elves at first and then the plain deletion. I'm not 100% sure that they should be deleted but it seems as the best thing to do.

Regarding your work in the Nirnaeth, I think that you did a good job. It is true that trying to make an unifying battle seems difficult because of the diferent versions of the Narn and the Annals. I will post later my alternative.
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Old 03-24-2005, 03:14 PM   #3
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A few comments

I had hoped to get further with this, but I might as well post what comments I do have (up to EX-14).

NA-TI-01: Two thoughts on using the "Aelfwine and Dirhaval" text:

1. Is the use of first person ("But here I will tell as I may a Tale of Men that Dirhaval of the Havens made . . .") out of keeping with the rest of the project? I suppose one could call this a stylistic matter - however, I think that if our work is supposed to be merely an absolute narrative of events, the "I" should go. Who is "I", anyway? If the Aelfwine story is out, the introduction seems a bit out of place.

2. We must decide whether Andvir mentioned here contradicts the story of Turin and the outlaws as it stands in the Narn and the other late sources. I suppose that if one wants to get technical about it, it is nowhere stated that Androg did not have a son nor that none escaped the battle. But the story as it stands certainly suggests, to me at least, that the defeat of the outlaws was complete: only Beleg, Turin, and Mim survived - because they were, respectively, an Elf, taken alive by the Orcs, and a traitor. I am very hesitant to introduce the point that Andvir somehow survived and letting it stand alongside the latest versions of the battle. Also it would be remarkable that such a full text of the Narn omitted all mention of the fact that Androg had a son who was also in the band. So there are three options here:

a. We could decide there is no contradiction after all.
b. We could eliminate Andvir.
c. We could try to edit the Narn so as to resolve the contradiction in favor of the Andvir story.

Findegil wrote:
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NA-EX-01: Since we already agreed to use the info given in this passaage, I don’t see any good reason not to use it.
Have we? It may be that we've already gone over these points and the discussion has slipped my mind.

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NA-EX-02: The name is only given in text A. It might need a linguistical check.
I think it's perfectly good Sindarin. It is, unfortunately, slightly ambiguous whether the name of the mode is "minlamad thent/estent" or whether Tolkien simply couldn't decide between "minlamad thent" and "minlamad estent".

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NA-EX-05: We do not know how this was dealt with inthe original text but in Sill77 the reference of “that battle” is clear from the circumstances but in this place it is not.
I don't think the addition is necessary. Compare GA:
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It is said that at this time Hurin and Huor, the sons of Galion, were dwelling with Haleth their kinsman as fostersons (as the custom then was among northern Men); and they went both to battle with the Orcs, even Huor . . .
It's a pity we don't have the original Narn text here - I am tempted to suggest going with GA as the basic text for the section in preference to the '77, but then the latter probably has some features from the Narn version that it would be better to keep.

NA-EX-09: No problem with this, but isn't the source QS37 rather than Q30?

NA-EX-12: I wonder whether this is contradicted by GA:

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And Haleth gathered his folk in Brethil, and they whetted their axes; but he died of age ere the war came, and Hundor his son ruled his people.
. . . which suggests that the Halethrim did not send a smaller force out of anger with Celegorm and Curufin. To be safe, I would use the GA version here.

NA-EX-14: I don't understand this. In Q30 and QS37 Maedhros's "first trial of strength" is not present. Whence comes this text and why do we need it?
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Old 03-24-2005, 04:32 PM   #4
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NA-TI-01:
Aiwendils 1. point: I wondered about the first person style here myself. If we decide not to use it that way we could also use the older version of the text instad of reforming the newer version.

Aiwendils 2. point: What we used was the information that Mablung did outlife the fall of Doriath and could be interviewed by Dirhaval.
The problem with Andvír is even greater: As Christopher Tolkien points out the text is clear that it is not Andvír that survived the battle of the sumit of Amon Rûdh but Andróg himself. From what I have understand in Aelfwine and Dírhaval even the first version of the text is younger than all accounts of the battle we have. Thus I think we have Andróg as the single survivor. And I did introduce that into the text (NA-SL-02).

NA-EX-02: From the text and its representation in Aelfwine and Dírhaval Version A and the information in note 3 to that chapter it seems clear to me that the name is "minlamad thent/estent".

NA-EX-05: I still think the addtion is neccesary. In GA and in Sil77 the battle of the Orcs against the combined forces of Brethil and Doriath is discriebed just before. But here in the Narn we do not tell about that battle at all. And in our work a full chapter of about 100 pages has gone by since that battle.

NA-EX-09: Sorry my mistake. You are right the source is QS37.

NA-EX-12: Well, I already halfe agreed to that when I made the text. If we skip this here we must also change the corrosponding sentence in the Lay of Leithian. But it is the saver way to deal with it.

NA-EX-14: Sorry my mistake, again. The source is QS37.
But that is a minor point. My idea was, that the early victories that the Union of Maedhros achieved were all only false, as it was stated in QS37. Clearly the "first trial of strength" was not present, but the sentence lifted form QS37 shows that the short freedom won by the Union for all Beleriand and even Dorthonion was already present and was deciefing of Morgoth.

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Old 03-30-2005, 11:20 PM   #5
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Looks like I will be going through the text piece by small piece. Further comments up to NA-EX-26:

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NA-EX-16 {The Words of Húrin and Morgoth} <Sil77 Of the Fifth Battle: Nirnaeth Arnoediad> Many songs are sung and many tales are told by the Elves of the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, the Battle of Unnumbered Tears, in which Fingon fell and the flower of the Eldar withered. If all were retold a man's life would not suffice for the hearing
Isn't the source for this GA note 2 rather than QS77? Not that it really matters.

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Then Fingon looked east and his elven-sight saw far off a dust and the glint of steel like stars in a mist, … … Then in the plain of Anfauglith, on the fourth day of the war, there began the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, all the sorrow of which no tale can contain.
Isn't there a section from either QS77 or GA in between here? It's not marked in the full text. I think we have:

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. . . But the Captain of Morgoth in the west had been commanded to draw out Fingon from his hills by whatever means he could. <GAHe marched on therefore until the front of his battle was drawn up before the stream of Sirion . . .
And then back to GA note 2 with "Then in the plain of Anfauglith . . ."

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Of all that befell in the eastward battle NA-EX-18<editorial additiononly a little should be told here>: {of the routing of Glaurung the Drake by the Naugrim of Belegost;}
I don't see the need for this sentence; I'd rather delete it than alter it.

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NA-EX-19<GA {But even as}When the vanguard of {Maidros}[Maeðros] came upon{ the Orcs}, Morgoth loosed his {last}[greatest] strength{, and Angband was emptied}. There came wolves, and wolfriders, and there came Balrogs{ a thousand}, and there came worms and drakes, and Glaurung, Father of Dragons. And the strength and terror of the Great Worm were now grown great indeed, and Elves and Men withered before him; and he came {between}[upon] the hosts of {Maidros}[Maeðros]{ and Fingon} and swept them apart.>
The deletion of "the Orcs" in "came upon {the Orcs}" leaves an ungrammatical sentence.

NA-EX-21 , -22: I don't understand why sections 231 and 232 of GA have been switched; indeed, it makes senseless the "yet" in "Yet neither by wolf, balrog, nor dragon . . ."

Findegil wrote:
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Thus the course of the battle is based on the Narn version, but we must consider these changed course ot the battle. It might prove to be unworkable.
Indeed, we must decide about the whole issue of Uldor's machinations. The Narn excises them entirely - at least, so it seems; it's difficult to be sure, since the Narn focuses only on the western battle. It is a little difficult to determine what was rejected from the earlier accounts and what was simply omitted in this version. It is also difficult to integrate GA and the Narn at points, particularly with regard to the coming of Turgon and the relation of the eastern battle and the western battle. This might be easier if we had the whole Narn text. I think it may turn out to be best to revert to the GA story with regard to the events unfolding in the east. At least, Christopher Tolkien seems to think that the new story is unworkable.

Another general consideration is to what extent we can trust that the QS77 text is an accurate presentation of the Narn text. Christopher tells us that "other features of the story as told in The Silmarillion that are not found in GA are derived from the Narn", and gives a few specific examples. Yet I can't help but to wonder whether any further changes were made. Actually, it would be quite uncharacteristic of his general procedure in the '77 to use a large passage from any text without at least a few modifications. Mister Underhill has noted (some time ago) that the whole element of Gothmog's "troll guard" (which may raise several problems with regard to trolls functioning in sunlight) is found nowhere but in this passage in the '77, which we can only guess comes from the Narn.

Findegil wrote:
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Aiwendils 1. point: I wondered about the first person style here myself. If we decide not to use it that way we could also use the older version of the text instad of reforming the newer version.
Actually, the problem is larger than that, I think. Aelfwine is out in our version. With that in mind, I must say that the whole introduction starts to seem quite out of place.

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The problem with Andvír is even greater: As Christopher Tolkien points out the text is clear that it is not Andvír that survived the battle of the sumit of Amon Rûdh but Andróg himself. From what I have understand in Aelfwine and Dírhaval even the first version of the text is younger than all accounts of the battle we have. Thus I think we have Andróg as the single survivor. And I did introduce that into the text (NA-SL-02).
Ah, right. I should never trust my memory. I will comment on the changed storyline in due course.

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NA-EX-02: From the text and its representation in Aelfwine and Dírhaval Version A and the information in note 3 to that chapter it seems clear to me that the name is "minlamad thent/estent".
CRT thinks so, anyway. I don't think the other view is entirely out of the question, but I suppose I agree that it is most likely the full name.

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NA-EX-05: I still think the addtion is neccesary. In GA and in Sil77 the battle of the Orcs against the combined forces of Brethil and Doriath is discriebed just before. But here in the Narn we do not tell about that battle at all. And in our work a full chapter of about 100 pages has gone by since that battle.
I suppose you're right.
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Old 04-05-2005, 02:40 PM   #6
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Sorry for the late response, thing are becoming dense in my privat life.

NA-EX-16: Aiwendil posted:
Quote:
Isn't the source for this GA note 2 rather than QS77? Not that it really matters.
GA note 2 does not give any indication if there was a headline for the battle. It did only indicate what was left out in UT. But it would be rather strange (in my view at least) if the battle would be described under the headline “The Words of Húrin and Morgoth”, therefore I adopted the headline from the Quenta Silmarillion.

NA-TI-04: Aiwendil posted:
Quote:
Isn't there a section from either QS77 or GA in between here? It's not marked in the full text.
Well, the hole passage which is marked NA-TI-04 from “Here then shall be recounted …” to “nor any of the Men of Hador, nor any tidings of the battle and the fate of their lords.” is a silently reconstructed text. This means it is reconstructed from the Sil77 with the information given in GA, note2. If you wish for a clearer indication of what comes from which source I will rework that passage. But it will take some time before I can do this.

NA-EX-18: Okay, I did not think of deleting the sentence. It is a good idea.

NA-EX-19: What about this:
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NA-EX-19<GA {But even as}When the vanguard of {Maidros}[Maeðros] came {upon the Orcs}up, Morgoth loosed his {last}[greatest] strength{, and Angband was emptied}. …
NA-EX-21, NA-EX-22 & the issue of GA versus Narn: The passages are switched because I followed the single sentence of the Narn-Version that deals with the eastern battle as close as possible. The passage in the Narn reads:
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Then in the plain of Anfauglith, on the fourth day of the war, there began the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, all the sorrow of which no tale can contain. Of all that befell in the eastward battle: of the routing of Glaurung the Drake by the Naugrim of Belegost; of the treachery of the Easterlings and the overthrow of the host of Maeðros and the flight of the Sons of Fëanor, no more is here said. In the west the host of Fingon retreated over the sands ...
In this sentence the order is changed and I followed this since it is all we have of the course of the battle in the east as Tolkien later saw it. I only elaborated the single issues (“the routing of Glaurung”; “the treachery of the Easterlings”; “the overthrow of the host of Maeðros”) with the corresponding passages of GA. I also see some points of problem with the integration and on is the issue of “Yet” that Aiwendil mentioned.
But after producing the text as it stands now I don’t think it is impossible to take the course of the battle described in the Narn as a basis. Beside the fact that it is Tolkiens last idea, I think it is in my view better than the old story. In the old story I got the feeling that had Maedhors timing worked, the battle would have had a different result. In the Narn the timing did work, but the forces of Morgoth were so overwhelming that Maedhors planed failed (mostly because of the treachery of the Easterlings).

Aiwendil wrote:
Quote:
Another general consideration is to what extent we can trust that the QS77 text is an accurate presentation of the Narn text. Christopher tells us that "other features of the story as told in The Silmarillion that are not found in GA are derived from the Narn", and gives a few specific examples. Yet I can't help but to wonder whether any further changes were made. Actually, it would be quite uncharacteristic of his general procedure in the '77 to use a large passage from any text without at least a few modifications. Mister Underhill has noted (some time ago) that the whole element of Gothmog's "troll guard" (which may raise several problems with regard to trolls functioning in sunlight) is found nowhere but in this passage in the '77, which we can only guess comes from the Narn.
So what you suggest is that we have to mistrust Christopher Tolkien to the degree that he would add such features as the Troll-guard into the Sil77 out of the blue and does not tell us so in the GA but rather deceives us with the general sentence about “other features”? That is not to say that I think the Sil77-text is one to one from the Narn-version. I am absolutely sure that Christopher Tolkien made many editorial alterations that he did not list in the GA, note 2, but when we lock to other parts of the Sil77 such editorial alterations not listed in the corresponding HoME-section are small alterations of style or grammatical features. To introduce a otherwise unrecorded species into the first age is fare beyond that level and would surely have found its way to the comments in GA. So I am against using GA here. The Narn was the alter account and we have that text even if it is edited by Christopher Tolkien. (On the other hand all the text of the Narn in UT is edited by Christopher Tolkien and we have near to no information to what degree.)
About the problems with the troll-guard: When Húrin killed 70 of them it was night so that does not create a problem. We are told about Trolls, that they were a product of the earlier day when there was no sun-light. Gothmog was also around at that time so it is possible that his guard was a relic of older days, not really much useful in the days of the sun, but still a force of his own that he could use anywhere in the underground kingdom of his master, and during the night also outside of it. Beside that the last stand of Húrin took place near to Taur-nu-Fuin, and I think that in a wood of such a name it might be that Trolls could even move around during the daylight.
In conclusion I see the problem but I can’t feel it a good reason to mistrust it origin of the troll-gurad from JRR Tolkien.

Aiwendil wrote:
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Aelfwine is out in our version. With that in mind, I must say that the whole introduction starts to seem quite out of place.
I agree that Aelfwine is out in our version, but not to the conclusion drawn from it that no introductions are possible. If we look at the Sil77 chapter Of Beren and Lúthien it has a kind of introduction. So I don’t see any good reason to skip the intro completely. I still see the problem of first person telling as it is done in the second version of the intro. As suggested above the second version micght be easier to deal with in that respect. I will try that out here:
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NA-TI-01b< Aelfwine & Dirhaval A Here begins that tale which {Ælfwine}[was] made from the {Húrinien}[Narn i Chîn Húrin]: which is the longest of all the lays of Beleriand now held in memory {in Eressea}[by the Elves]. But it is said {there}[by them] that, though made in Elvish speech and using much Elvish lore (especially of Doriath), this lay was the work of a Mannish poet, {Dirhavel}[Dirhaval], who lived at the Havens in the days of {Earendel}[Earendil] and there gathered all the tidings and lore that he could of the House of Hador, whether among Men or Elves, remnants and fugitives of {Dorlómin}[Dor-lómin], of Nargothrond, or of Doriath. From Mablung he learned much; and by fortune also he found a man named Andvír, and he was very old, but was the son of that Andróg who was in the outlaw-band of Túrin, and alone survived the battle on the summit of Amon Rudh. Otherwise all that time between the flight of Túrin from Doriath and his coming to Nargothrond, and Túrin's deeds in those days, would have remained hidden, save the little that was remembered among the people of Nargothrond concerning such matters as Gwindor or Túrin ever revealed. In this way also the matter of Mîm and his later dealings with Húrin were made clear. This lay was all that {Dirhavel}[Dirhaval] ever made, but it was prized by the Elves and remembered by them. {Dirhavel}[Dirhaval] they say perished in the last raid of the sons of Fëanor upon the Havens. His lay was composed in that mode of verse which was called Minlamad thent / estent. {Though this verse was not wholly unlike the verse known to Ælfwine, he translated the lay into prose (including in it, or adding in the margins as seemed fit to him, matter from the Elvish commentaries that he had heard or seen); for he was not himself skilled in the making of verse, and the transference of this long tale from Elvish into English was difficult enough. Indeed even as it was made, with the help of the Elves as it would seem from his notes and additions, in places his account is obscure.}
This version into 'modern' {English}[language], that is forms of {English}[language] intelligible to living users of {the English}[this] tongue (who have some knowledge of letters, and are not limited to the language of daily use from mouth to mouth) does not attempt to imitate the idiom of {Ælfwine, nor that of} the Elvish which often shows through especially in the dialogue. But since it is even to Elves now 'a tale of long ago', and depicts high and ancient persons and their speech (such as Thingol and Melian), there{ is in Ælfwine's version, and clearly} was in {Dirhavel}[Dirhaval]'s day, much archaic language, of words and usage, and the older and nobler Elves do not speak in the same style as Men, or in quite the same language as that of the main narrative; there are therefore here retained similar elements. It is for this reason that, for example, Thingol's speech is not that of our present day: for indeed the speech of Doriath, whether of the king or others, was even in the days of Túrin more antique than that used elsewhere. One thing (as Mîm observed) of which Túrin never rid himself, despite his grievance against Doriath, was the speech he had acquired during his fostering. Though a Man, he spoke like an Elf of the Hidden Kingdom{, which is as though a Man should now appear, whose speech and schooling until manhood had been that of some secluded country where the English had remained nearer that of the court of Elizabeth I than of Elizabeth II}.>
Here the element of Aelfwine was deleted by me and the first person narrator was not included by Tolkien. The text is now that of an unnamed later editor. To make it even more obscure I did also delete all references to English. It seems to me that this works a bit better than the other version.

NA-EX-12: I still hesitate to eliminate the motive of the “treacherous shaft of Curufin remembered by Men” completely. Would it be possible to add it in this weekend form: NA-EX-12<QS The treacherous shaft of Curufin that wounded Beren was remembered among Men. Therefore{ of} the folk of Haleth that dwelt in Brethil{ only the half came forth, and they} went not to join {Maidros}[Maeðros], but came rather to Fingon{ and Turgon} in the West.> Some thoughts of mine to this: The folk of Brethil had to that time not made any alliance to the Elves save only Doriath. Thus Maedhros could have hoped to add them to his force since they were long ago rescued by Caranthir. But with the deeds of Curufin remembered about them they did disobey Maedhros bidding and joined Fingon.

So fare for the moment.
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Old 04-21-2005, 04:54 PM   #7
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A few more comments, up to TI-07.5. Sorry I'm moving along with this so slowly.

NA-TI-05: I'm not certain about this. Here is a case where it would really be helpful to have the actual Narn texts instead of just CRT's version. It's possible, after all, that the reason the statement is not in the "final" text is that Tolkien decided against it. I am somewhat inclined to exclude the note to be safe.

NA-TI-06: I have less of a reservation about using this note; but I think the placement of it may be awkward.

NA-EX-27: I agree that this is not a perfect place for this material; but you are right that it must be included somewhere. This place seems as good as any to me.

NA-TI-07: I would rather not include this note. Again, I wish we knew more about this "variant text". But in this case it offers a distinctly different story from the given text. When and to whom Turin reveals his true identity is not a trivial point. I would take the safer course and follow the more authoritative "final text", in the absence of other evidence.

NA-TI-07.5: A similar problem. If we knew that the final text given by CRT was in fact Tolkien's final intention, then clearly we would omit the note, leaving the geography what it is in that text, whether it makes sense or not. But of course we don't know that. I suppose I can agree with adding the explication from the note. However, as the emendation stands it is ungrammatical and seems to alter the intended movements:

Quote:
NA-TI-07.5 <NA; note 11 {they}Túrin and his band remained in the Vale of Sirion{, and indeed that they were not far from their previous haunts at the time of the Orc-raid on the homes of the Woodmen. In one tentative version} they went away southwards and came to the country {"}above the Aelin-uial and the Fens of Sirion{"; but}/. But/ the men {becoming}became discontented in that {"}harbourless land{",}/. Thus/ Túrin was persuaded to lead them back to the woodlands south of {Teiglin}[Taeglin] where he first encountered them.>
I suggest:

Quote:
NA-TI-07.5 <NA; note 11 {they}Túrin and his band went away southwards and came to the country {"}above the Aelin-uial and the Fens of Sirion{"}; but the men becoming discontented in that {"}harbourless land{"}, Túrin was persuaded to lead them back to the woodlands south of {Teiglin}[Taeglin] where he first encountered them.>
We may also want an introductory "Now" or some such thing, for otherwise it's a sudden transition.

Last edited by Aiwendil; 05-29-2005 at 05:59 PM.
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Old 04-27-2005, 03:34 AM   #8
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Posted by Aiwendil:
Quote:
Here is a case where it would really be helpful to have the actual Narn texts instead of just CRT's version. It's possible, after all, that the reason the statement is not in the "final" text is that Tolkien decided against it.
That's definitly true for many parts in the Narn. And it would also be a nice read, to be sure, if The History of the Túrin-Saga would be published.

NA-EX-27: So we agree on this.

NA-TI-05: In this particular case you might be right. Christopher Tolkien said in his forword:
Quote:
... The concluding section (from The Return of Túrin to Dor-Lómin to the Death of Túrin) has undergone only marginal editorial alteration; while the first section (to the end of Túrin in DOriath) required a good deal of revision and selection, and in some places some slight compression, the original texts being scrappy and disconected. But the central section of the narrative (Túrin among the outlaws, Mîm the Petty-dwarf, the land of Dor-Cúrathol, the Death of Beleg at Túrins hand, and Túrin's life in Nargothrond) constituted a much more difficult editorial problem. ...
He does not give the rules by which he made his 'selections' but since he had surely had the better state of info than we have we should may be follow his lead.

NA-TI-06: What about this palcement:
Quote:
... Thus for a little while his mood was lightened, until he fell again under shadow, and that friendship passed like a morning of spring. For NA-TI-06<NA; Note 7 always{Always} he sought in all faces of women the face of Lalaith{.}, and> Nellas did not go to Menegroth, and ...
NA-TI-07: I agree that it is the saver way not to include this. The note does provide the alternative text at lenght, so that our addition could only be halfe original. But the argument about Túrins identity is not really valid. At latest when he put on the Dragon-helm brought by Beleg any men from Dor-Lómin would have know who he was.

NA-TI-07.5: Reading it again I must say that we should even make the first part past perfect since it is already in retrospect. What does not sweet me in your version is the loss of "remained in the Vale of Sirion". Thus I would suggest:
Quote:
Then all those that were of the People of Hador gathered to him, and took him as their captain; and the others with less good will agreed. And at once he led them away out of that country.{ 10}NA-TI-07.2 <NA; note 11 {they}They remained in the Vale of Sirion, and {indeed that they were not far from their previous haunts at the time of the Orc-raid on the homes of the Woodmen. In one tentative version they} went away southwards>.
Many messengers had been sent ...
...
... But they for their part became aware that they were trailed by some tireless pursuer, whom they could not see, and yet could not shake off; and they grew uneasy.{ 11}NA-TI-07.5 <NA; note 11 Túrin and his band {came}had come to the country {"}above the Aelinuial and the Fens of Sirion{"}; but the men becoming discontented in that {"}harbourless land{"}, Túrin was persuaded to lead them back to the woodlands south of {Teiglin}[Taeglin] where he first encountered them.>
Not long afterwards ...
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Old 09-16-2005, 04:31 PM   #9
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In answer to post #5 were Aiwendil remarked that he missed some markings of my editing, I have reworked the section in question. I give here therfore the complet battle in full text (I think the text is short enough for such a treatment). Mark that all editings NA-TI-04 to NA-TI-04.8 are based on GA, appended Note 2.
Quote:
NA-EX-16 {The Words of Húrin and Morgoth} <Sil77 Of the Fifth Battle: Nirnaeth Arnoediad>
Many songs are sung and many tales are told by the Elves of the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, the Battle of Unnumbered Tears, in which Fingon fell and the flower of the Eldar withered. If all were retold a man's life would not suffice for the hearing{; 2}NA-TI-04<GA; appended Note 2. Here then shall be recounted {only}[especially] those deeds which bear upon the fate of the House of Hador and the children of Húrin the Steadfast.
Having gathered at length all the strength that he could {Maedhros}[Maeðros] appointed a day, the morning of Midsummer. On that day the trumpets of the Eldar greeted the rising of the Sun, and in the east was raised the standard of the Sons of Fëanor; and in the west the standard of Fingon, King of the Noldor. Then Fingon looked out from the walls of Eithel Sirion, and his host was arrayed in the valleys and woods upon the east borders of Eryd-wethion, well hid from the eyes of the Enemy; but he knew that it was very great. For there all the Noldor of Hithlum were assembled, and to them were gathered many Elves of the Falas and of Nargothrond; and he had great strength of Men. Upon the right were stationed the host of Dor-lomin and all the valour of Húrin and Huor his brother, and to them had come NA-EX-17<editorial addition Haldir and> Hundar of Brethil, their kinsman, with many men of the woods.
Then Fingon looked east and his elven-sight saw far off a dust and the glint of steel like stars in a mist, and he knew that Maeðros had set forth; and he rejoiced. Then he looked towards Thangorodrim, and behold! there was a dark cloud about it and a black smoke went up; and he knew that the wrath of Morgoth was kindled and that their challenge would be accepted, and a shadow fell upon his heart. But at that moment a cry went up, passing on the wind from the south from vale to vale, and Elves and Men lifted up their voices in wonder and joy. For unsummoned and unlooked-for Turgon had opened the leaguer of Gondolin, and was come with an army, ten thousand strong, with bright mail and long swords and spears like a forest. Then when Fingon heard afar the great trumpet of Turgon, the shadow passed and his heart was uplifted, and he shouted aloud: Utulie'n aure! Aiya Eldalie ar Atanatarni, sctulie'n aure! (The day has come! Lo, people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!) And all those who heard his great voice echo in the hills answered crying: Auta i lome! (The night is passing!)
It was not long before the great battle was joined. For Morgoth knew much of what was done and designed by his foes and had laid his plans against the hour of their assault. Already a great force out of Angband was drawing near to Hithlum, while another and greater went to meet Maeðros to prevent the union of the powers of the kings. And those that came against Fingon were clad all in dun raiment and showed no naked steel, and thus were already far over the sands before their approach became known.
Then the hearts of the Noldor grew hot, and their captains wished to assail their foes on the plain; but Fingon spoke against this.
'Beware of the guile of Morgoth, lords!' he said. 'Ever his strength is more than it seems, and his purpose other than he reveals. Do not reveal your own strength, but let the enemy spend his first in assault on the hills. At least until the signal of {Maedhros}[Maeðros] is seen.' For it was the design of the kings that Maeðros should march openly over the Anfauglith with all his strength, of Elves and of Men and of Dwarves; and when he had drawn forth, as he hoped, the main armies of Morgoth in answer, then Fingon should come on from the west, and so the might of Morgoth should be taken as between hammer and anvil and be broken to pieces; and the signal for this was to be the firing of a great beacon in Dorthonion.
But the Captain of Morgoth in the west had been commanded to draw out Fingon from his hills by whatever means he could. NA-TI-04.1<Sil77 He marched on therefore until the front of his battle was drawn up before the stream of Sirion, from the walls of the fortress of Eithel Sirion to the inflowing of Rivil at the Fen of Serech; and the outposts of Fingon could see the eyes of their enemies. But there was no answer to his challenge, and the taunts of the Orcs faltered as they looked upon the silent walls and the hidden threat of the hills. Then the Captain of Morgoth sent out riders with tokens of parley, and they rode up before the outworks of the Barad Eithel. With them they brought Gelmir son of Guilin, that lord of Nargothrond whom they had captured in the Bragollach; and they had blinded him. Then the heralds of Angband showed him forth, crying: 'We have many more such at home, but you must make haste if you would find them; for we shall deal with them all when we return even so.' And they hewed off Gelmir's hands and feet, and his head last, within sight of the Elves, and left him.
By ill chance, at that NA-TI-04.2{place in the outworks}< GA; appended Note 2 point in the outposts> stood Gwindor of Nargothrond, the brother of Gelmir. Now his wrath was kindled to madness, and he leapt forth on horseback, and many riders with him; and they pursued the heralds and slew them, and drove on deep into the main host. And seeing this all the host of the Noldor was set on fire, and Fingon put on his white helm and sounded his trumpets, and all the host of Hithlum leapt forth from the hills in sudden onslaught. The light of the drawing of the swords of the Noldor was like a fire in a field of reeds; and so fell and swift was their onset that almost the designs of Morgoth went astray. Before the army that he sent westward could be strengthened it was swept away, and the banners of Fingon passed over Anfauglith and were raised before the walls of Angband. Ever in the forefront of that battle went Gwindor and the Elves of Nargothrond, and even now they could not be restrained; and they burst through the Gate and slew the guards upon the very stairs of Angband, and Morgoth trembled upon his deep throne, hearing them beat upon his doors. But they were trapped there, and all were slain save Gwindor only, whom they took alive; for Fingon could not come to their aid. By many secret doors in Thangorodrim Morgoth had let issue forth his main host that he held in waiting, and Fingon was beaten back with great loss from the walls.>
NA-TI-04.3 < GA; appended Note 2 Then in the plain of Anfauglith, on the fourth day of the war, there began the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, all the sorrow of which no tale can contain. NA-EX-18{Of all that befell in the eastward battle: of the routing of Glaurung the Drake by the Naugrim of Belegost;} NA-EX-19<GA {But even as}When the vanguard of {Maidros}[Maeðros] came {upon the Orcs}up, Morgoth loosed his {last}[greatest] strength{, and Angband was emptied}. There came wolves, and wolfriders, and there came Balrogs{ a thousand}, and there came worms and drakes, and Glaurung, Father of Dragons. And the strength and terror of the Great Worm were now grown great indeed, and Elves and Men withered before him; and he came {between}[upon] the hosts of {Maidros}[Maeðros]{ and Fingon} and swept them apart.> NA-EX-20< GA
Last of all the eastern force to stand firm NA-EX-21<editorial additionagainst the worms and drakes> were the Enfeng of Belegost, and thus won renown. Now the Naugrim withstood fire more hardily than either Elves or Men, and it was the custom moreover of the Enfeng to wear great masks in battle hideous to look upon, which stood them in good stead against the drakes. And but for them Glaurung and his brood would have withered all that was left of the Noldor. But the Naugrim made a circle about him when he assailed them, and even his mighty armour was not full proof against the blows of their great axes; and when in his rage he turned and struck down Azaghâl of Belegost and crawled over him, with his last stroke Azaghâl drove a knife into his belly and so wounded him that he fled the field and the beasts of Angband in dismay followed after him. Had Azaghâl but borne a sword great woe would have been spared to the Noldor that after befell but his knife went not deep enough. But then the Enfeng raised up the body of Azaghâl and bore it away; and with slow steps they walked behind, singing a dirge in their deep voices, as it were a funeral pomp in their own country, and gave no heed more to their foes; and indeed none dared to stay them.
>{ of the treachery of the Easterlings and the overthrow of the host of Maedhros and} NA-EX-22<GA Yet neither by wolf, balrog, nor dragon would Morgoth have achieved his end, but for the treachery of Men. In this hour the plots of Ulfang were revealed; for many of the Easterlings turned and fled, their hearts being filled with lies and fear; but the sons of Ulfang went over suddenly to the side of Morgoth and drove in upon the rear of the sons of Fëanor. And in the confusion that they wrought they came near to the standard of {Maidros}[Maeðros]. They reaped not the reward that Morgoth promised them, for Maglor slew Uldor the Accursed, the leader in treason, and Bor and his sons slew Ulfast and Ulwarth ere they themselves were slain. But new strength of evil men came up that Uldor had summoned and kept hidden in the eastern hills, and the host of {Maidros}[Maeðros] being assailed now on three sides, by the Orcs, and the beasts, and by the Swarthy Men, was dispersed and fled this way and that. Yet fate saved the sons of Fëanor, and though all were wounded, none were slain, for they drew together and gathering a remnant of Noldor and of the Naugrim about them they hewed a way out of the battle and escaped towards Mount Dolmed.> Of the flight of the Sons of Fëanor, no more is here said.
In the west the host of Fingon retreated over the sands > NA-TI-04.4 <Sil77, and Haldir lord of the Haladin was slain in the rearguard; with him fell most of the Men of Brethil, and came never back to their woods. But on the fifth day as night fell, and they were still far from Ered Wethrin, the Orcs surrounded the host of Hithlum, and they fought until day, pressed ever closer. In the morning came hope, when the horns of Turgon were heard as he marched up with the main host of Gondolin; for they had been stationed southward guarding the Pass of Sirion, and Turgon restrained most of his people from the rash onslaught. Now he hastened to the aid of his brother; and the Gondolindrim were strong and clad in mail, and their ranks shone like a river of steel in the sun.>
NA-TI-04.5<GA; appended Note 2 Now the phalanx of the guard of the King broke through the ranks of the Orcs, and Turgon hewed his way to the side of his brother. And it is said that the meeting of Turgon with Húrin who stood beside Fingon was glad in the midst of battle. For a while then the hosts of Angband were driven back, and Fingon again began his retreat. But having routed {Maedhros}[Maeðros] in the east Morgoth had now great forces to spare, and before Fingon and Turgon could come to the shelter of the hills they were assailed by a tide of foes thrice greater than all the force that was left to them.> NA-TI-04.6<Sil77 Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs, high-captain of Angband, was come; and he drove a dark wedge between the Elvenhosts, surrounding King Fingon, and thrusting Turgon and Húrin aside towards the Fen of Serech. Then he turned upon Fingon. That was a grim meeting. At last Fingon stood alone with his guard dead about him; and he fought with Gothmog, until another Balrog came behind and cast a thong of fire about him. Then Gothmog hewed him with his black axe, and a white flame sprang up from the helm of Fingon as it was cloven. Thus fell the High King of the Noldor; and they beat him into the dust with their maces, and his banner, blue and silver, they trod into the mire of his blood.
The field was lost; but still Húrin and Huor and the remnant of the house of Hador stood firm with Turgon of Gondolin, and the hosts of Morgoth could not yet win the Pass of Sirion. Then Húrin spoke to Turgon, saying: 'Go now, lord, while time is! For in you lives the last hope of the Eldar, and while Gondolin stands Morgoth shall still know fear in his heart.'
But Turgon answered: 'Not long now can Gondolin be hidden; and being discovered it must fall.'
Then Huor spoke and said: 'Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and from me a new star shall arise. Farewell!'
And Maeglin, Turgon's sister-son, who stood by, heard these words, and did not forget them; but he said nothing.
Then Turgon took the counsel of Húrin and Huor, and summoning all that remained of the host of Gondolin and such of Fingon's people as could be gathered he retreated towards the Pass of Sirion; and his captains Ecthelion and Glorfindel guarded the flanks to right and left, so that none of the enemy should pass them by. But the Men of Dor-lómin held the rearguard, as Húrin and Huor desired; for they did not wish in their hearts to leave the Northlands, and if they could not win back to their homes, there they would stand to the end. Thus was the treachery of Uldor redressed; and of all the deeds of war that the fathers of Men wrought in behalf of the Eldar, the last stand of the Men of Dor-lómin is most renowned.
So it was that Turgon fought his way southward, until coming behind the guard of Húrin and Huor he passed down Sirion and escaped; and he vanished into the mountains and was hidden from the eyes of Morgoth. But the brothers drew the remnant of the Men of the house of Hador about them, and foot by foot they withdrew, until they came behind the Fen of Serech, and had the stream of Rivil before them. There they stood and gave way no more.
Then all the hosts of Angband swarmed against them, and they bridged the stream with their dead, and encircled the remnant of Hithlum as a gathering tide about a rock. There as the sun westered on the sixth day, and the shadow of Ered Wethrin grew dark, Huor fell pierced with a venomed arrow in his eye, and all the valiant Men of Hador were slain about him in a heap; and the Orcs hewed their heads and piled them as a mound of gold in the sunset.
Last of all Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and NA-TI-04.7<GA; appended Note 2seized the axe of an Orc-captain and wielded it>{wielded an axe} two-handed; and it is sung that the axe smoked in the black blood of the troll-guard of Gothmog until it withered, and each time that he slew Húrin cried: 'Aurë entuluva! Day shall come again!' Seventy times he uttered that cry; but they took him at last alive, by the command of Morgoth, for the Orcs grappled him with their hands, which clung to him still though he hewed off their arms; and ever their numbers were renewed, until at last he fell buried beneath them. Then Gothmog bound him and dragged him to Angband with mockery.
Thus ended Nirnaeth Arnoediad, as the sun went down beyond the sea. Night fell in Hithlum, and there came a great storm of wind out of the West.
>
NA-TI-04.8<GA; §241 Great indeed now was the triumph of Morgoth; and his design was accomplished in a manner after his own heart; for Men took the lives of Men, and betrayed the Eldar, and fear and hatred were aroused among those that should have been united against him. From that day indeed began the estrangement of Elves from Men, save only from those of the Three Houses of Beor, Hador, and Haleth, and their children.
The March of {Maidros}[Maeðros] was no more. The fell sons of Fëanor were broken and wandered far away in the woods as leaves before the wind. The Gorge of Aglon was filled with Orcs, and the Hill of Himring was garrisoned by soldiers of Angband; the pass of Sirion was pierced Na-EX-22.5{ and Tol-sirion retaken and its dread towers rebuilt}. All the gates of Beleriand were in the power of Morgoth. The realm of Fingon was no more. To Hithlum came back never one of Fingon's host, nor any of the Men of Hador, nor any tidings of the battle and the fate of their lords.> NA-EX-23<GA, §252 And Morgoth now broke his pledges to the Easterlings that had served him, and denied to them the rich lands of Beleriand which they coveted, and he sent away these evil folk into Hithlum, and there commanded them to dwell. And little though they now loved their new king, yet they despised the remnant of the folk of Hador (the aged and the women and the children for the most part), and they oppressed them, and took their lands and goods, and wedded their women by force, and enslaved their children. And those of the Grey-elves that had dwelt there fled into the mountains, or were taken to the mines of the North and laboured there as thralls.>
NA-EX-24<GA Now the Orcs in token of the great triumph of Angband gathered with great labour all the bodies of their enemies that were slain, and all their harness and weapons, and they piled them, Elves and Men, in a great hill in the midst of the Anfauglith. {Haud-ina-Nengin}[Haudh-en-Nirnaeth] was the name of that mound, and it was like unto a hill. But thither alone in all the desert the grass came, and grew again long and green, and thereafter no Orc dared tread upon the earth beneath which the swords of the Noldor crumbled into rust.>
NA-EX-25<GA Doriath indeed remained, and Nargothrond was hidden, and Círdan held the Havens; but Morgoth gave small heed to them as yet, either for he knew little of them, or because their hour was not yet come in the deep purposes of his malice. But one thought troubled him deeply, and marred his triumph; Turgon had escaped the net, whom he most desired to take. For Turgon came of the great house of Fingolfin, and was now by right King of all the Noldor, and Morgoth feared and hated most the house of Fingolfin, because they had scorned him in Valinor, and had the friendship of Ulmo, and because of the wounds that Fingolfin gave him in battle. Moreover of old his eye had lighted on Turgon, and a dark shadow fell on his heart, foreboding that, in some time that lay yet hidden in doom, from Turgon ruin should come to him.>
I hope this may help to creat some new impulse in the discussion.

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Findegil
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Old 09-30-2005, 09:54 AM   #10
Aiwendil
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I am really very sorry for my long absence. I hope that I can get around to looking over more of the changes sometime this weekend.

NA-EX-19: I think we might actually stay closer to the original with:

Quote:
NA-EX-19<GA But even as the vanguard of {Maidros}[Maeðros] came {upon the Orcs}up, Morgoth loosed his {last}[greatest] strength, and Angband was emptied. …
I don't understand the deletion of "and Angband was emptied" in your version.

NA-EX-21, -22: I'm still unsure about this. The trouble as I see it is that the Narn version is told exclusively from the point of view of the western host. Reading what we are given of the Narn version I do not feel at all sure that Uldor's plot was removed entirely. We have only the indirect evidence that Fingon sees dust rising in the east. There is also something of a minor mystery in the Narn text - though Maedhros sets forth at the right time, he does not fire the beacon. I suppose one could blame this on the second host sent from Angband to attack him - but wasn't the whole point of Maedhros's assault to draw out the forces of Angband, at which time the beacon would be fired?

So I still see think it quite possible that Uldor's machinations were retained and simply omitted from the Narn version, which focuses only on the western battle. I suppose, though, that this may not be enough to justify any actual, explicit reference to Uldor's plot. I need to think about this a little bit more.

Findegil wrote:
Quote:
So what you suggest is that we have to mistrust Christopher Tolkien to the degree that he would add such features as the Troll-guard into the Sil77 out of the blue and does not tell us so in the GA but rather deceives us with the general sentence about “other features”?
No. This is an extreme example, and in the end I suppose we are better off following QS77. My only hesitation is the issue of trolls in the sunlight. For it was not night when they fought against Hurin - the sun was westering when Huor fell, by which time the final battle in the fen was already underway. And it was not until Hurin was captured that the sun was gone:

Quote:
Thus ended Nirnaeth Arnoediad, as the sun went down beyond the sea. Night fell in Hithlum, and there cam a great storm of wind out of the West.
Even if one were to suppose that these exact timings are not reliable, and that night had fallen by the time Hurin fought with the troll-guard, there is still the problem that the troll-guard must have taken an appreciable time to cross the Anfauglith, and thus must have been travelling in daylight. Indeed, if they were with Gothmog, then earlier that day they were fighting Fingon farther north.

It is only for this reason that I wish we had more tangible proof that the troll-guard are in the Narn text. Ultimately, though, I agree that it is probably best to include them, despite the problems this creates.

NA-TI-01b: This version looks good to me. One very minor point - I would delete a comma:

Quote:
there{ is in Ælfwine's version, and clearly} was in {Dirhavel}[Dirhaval]'s day{,} much archaic language, of words and usage,
NA-EX-12: Yours seems a reasonable solution.

NA-TI-06: I suppose this placement works.

NA-TI-07: Findegil wrote:

Quote:
But the argument about Túrins identity is not really valid. At latest when he put on the Dragon-helm brought by Beleg any men from Dor-Lómin would have know who he was.
Good point. This had slipped my mind. Still, I think it's safer not to use this note.

NA-TI-07.5: I guess I'm a little worried here about whether there is a conflict between the "final" version where "it seems necessary to suppose . . . that they remained in the Vale of Sirion" and the "tentative version" wherein "they went away southwards . . . but the men becoming discontented in that "harbourless land", Turin was persuaded to lead them back." It seems to me that the implication in that tentative version is that they did not remain in the Vale of Sirion, but departed southward and later returned to the Vale of Sirion.

I would, then, either say simply that they remained in the Vale of Sirion (and exclude the bit where they go south) or say that they went southward (and exlude the claim that they "remained in the Vale of Sirion").
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Old 10-01-2005, 06:45 AM   #11
Findegil
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I don't mind how slow the project goes on, as long as it still has a chance to go on at all!

NA-EX-19: Aiwendil worte:
Quote:
I don't understand the deletion of "and Angband was emptied" in your version.
As I understand the course of the battle in the Narn version Morgoth sent one army against Fingon and one against Maedhros, both nearly at the same time. A third army he held back in Angband and sent it out when Fingon had approached his gate. In GA the western Army against Fingon was the first, then when Fingon was in front of Angband the second Army drove him back and when Maedhros finally approached the third army with Glaurung "emptied Angband". Thus in the Narn version it could not been said that Angband was emptied because Morgoth had still the forces in reserve that he used to drive Fingon from the gates back into the plain.

NA-EX-21, -22: The not fired bacon is really a riddle, but the course of the battle is clearly changed in the Narn version. From what we get in the Narn it seems clear to me that Maedhros was not late with his attack. There were no wishpers of treason in the western army. Thus if Uldor's machinations were still present they were not effective in the way they had been in Sil77. On the basis of this I can't see how we could work them in, without creating an entirely new thread in the story. A reason why the beacon never was fired could be that Maedhros was cut of from Dorthonion by the Easterlings of Uldor before he could sent the order to fire it. And afterwards he would not fire it in the hope that Fingon would be save from the disaster of that day when he stayed in Hithlum, not knowing that Fingon was already involved in fights of his own. On the other hand it would not be any great wonder if a bacon fired when Fingon was already fare out on Anfauglith would not be marked by many and not found any mention in the battle description.

Aiwendil wrote:
Quote:
Even if one were to suppose that these exact timings are not reliable, and that night had fallen by the time Hurin fought with the troll-guard, there is still the problem that the troll-guard must have taken an appreciable time to cross the Anfauglith, and thus must have been travelling in daylight. Indeed, if they were with Gothmog, then earlier that day they were fighting Fingon farther north.
Yes, I suppose that the exact timings are not reliable to the least. And locking at the geography it is clear that night fell earlier in the gorge of Sirion father east than at the coast were it could be said that "the sun went down beyond the sea" equally if we are dealing with a round earth turning around it self or a flat earth with the sun running around in circles.
In the fight of Gothmog and Fingon there is no mention of the troll-guard, thus they were possibly not there. They might have been in the fighting the night before when Fingon was surrounded and hid themselves during the day in some dark place near at hand (Taur-nu-Fuin?), approaching the fight again when the sun went down behind Ered Wethrin.
In the The Hobbit the trolls changed into stone exactly when the sun peeped over the rim of the mountains, thus the trolls could stand the dawn, and I suppose the dusk as well.

Aiwendil wrote:
Quote:
It is only for this reason that I wish we had more tangible proof that the troll-guard are in the Narn text. Ultimately, though, I agree that it is probably best to include them, despite the problems this creates.
Agreed, full heartedly!

NA-TI-01b, NA-EX-12 & NA-TI-06: So these points are done.

NA-TI-07: So what is about using the words of Algund in the place were Túrin takes up the helm. Thus we would get some more material for the rather week Dor-Cúrathol part:
Quote:
NA-EX-34 <Ap Narn Beleg, appraoching Amon Rûdh, {came}had come upon their tracks, and{ either} trailed them to {a}the camp{ which they were forced to make in a sudden snowstorm, or followed them back to Bar-en-Danwedh and slipped in after them}.>NA-TI-15 <Sil77 Thus Beleg returned once more to Túrin, and their meeting was glad; and with him he brought out of Dimbar the Dragon-helm of Dor-lómin, thinking that it might lift Túrin's thought again above his life in the wilderness as the leader of a petty company.> NA-TI-15.5 <NA; Note 10 Then Algund, the old outlaw who had fled down Sirion from the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, said{ that Túrin's}/: "Your/ eyes {had}/have/ long reminded {him}/me/ of another whom {he}/I/ could not recall, and{ that} now {he}/I/ knew {him}/you/ for the son of Húrin. {"'}But he was a smaller man, small for his kin, though filled with fire; and his hair gold-red. You are dark, and tall. I see your mother in you, now that I look closer; she was of Bëor's people. What fate was hers, I wonder.{' '}/" "/I do not know,{'}/"/ said Túrin. {'}/"/No word comes out of the North.{'}">
<Sil77 But still Túrin would not return to Doriath; and Beleg yielding to his love against his wisdom remained with him, and did not depart, and in that time he laboured much for the good of Túrin's company. ...>
NA-TI-07.5: The question seems to be how broad the vale of Sirion was in that area, and how exactly we should press the words "went away southwards". I can not see any contradiction between "went away southwards from the wood south of Taeglin" and staying in the vale of Sirion. Locking at the north-west section of the map in HoME 11 the camp of the Woodman is marked (labelled "Turin among the Outlaws) very near to the confluence of Taeglin and Sirion. (It is interesting that Túrin was driven by the orcs beyond the road that went down from the crossing of Taeglin, and came back in only three days.) But it seems also clear that Túrin and his band did not go exactly south from that place, since otherwise they would run into Doriath beyond Sirion. It is also later attested that they did not move fare from the River Taeglin or the borders of Doriath. Thus I think "southwards" means they followed the vale of the river Sirion to the south along the borders of Doriath. The vale of Sirion is later attested to be as broad as the woods shown on the map ("... the next day he led his men away, further than they had yet come from the {Teiglin}[Taeglin] and the marches of Doriath. After three days' journeying they halted at the western edge of the woods of Sirion's Vale. There the land was drier and more bare, as it began to climb up into the moorlands.") Thus their is space enough for a journey southwards from the former haunts of the Outlaws but still remaining in the vale of Sirion.
Could it be that you, Aiwendil, placed the Woodman nearer to the crossing of Taeglin, as I did at first myself? Then a southward movement would clearly lead out of the vale of Sirion.
But the map does provide us with a place for the Woodman and the Outlaws that fits all statments in the text, I created, with the sole exception of Túrin twice crossing the road south of the crossing of Taeglin in a journey of only three days. But for that problem it is possible to disagree with Christopher Tolkiens statment "that that they were not far from their previous haunts at the time of the Orc-raid on the homes of the Woodmen". It seems probable that they were much father to the west at that time.

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Old 10-01-2005, 08:59 PM   #12
Aiwendil
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A few more comments for the moment.

NA-TI-08.5: We might as well make this a footnote.

NA-EX-27.5: Again, we have "alternate" forms without any indication what their chronological relations are. I can at the moment think of no later source wherein we'd find the name, so I suppose we have no reason to think any form superior to the others. I suppose in that case, it's best to go with "Nibin-noeg".

NA-EX-27.7: This also looks okay to me as a footnote.

NA-TI-09: I'm not sure that the alternative form of the curse must be used - it's possible that Androg's curse simply didn't come true. It's Dwarves' curses that one is supposed to have to fear, not Mens'! Again, I wish we knew more about the various texts of the Narn and why Christopher used the version he did and called the other an "alternative". I suppose that since we don't have any information that suggests either version to be of higher priority, we may as well use the alternative.

NA-TI-11:

Quote:
Yet, and strange it seemed to them, with Túrin it went otherwise; and he became ever more friendly with the old Dwarf, and listened more and more to his counsels. In the winter that followed he would sit for long hours with Mîm, listening to his lore and the tales of his life; NA-TI-11 <Sil77 {For}for Mîm came of Dwarves that were banished in ancient days from the great Dwarf-cities of the east, and long before the return of Morgoth they wandered westward into Beleriand; but they became diminished in stature and in smith-craft, and they took to lives of stealth, walking with bowed shoulders and furtive steps. Before the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost came west over the mountains the Elves of Beleriand knew not what these others were, and they hunted them, and slew them; but afterwards they let them alone, and they were called Noegyth Nibin, the Petty-Dwarves, in the Sindarin tongue. They loved none but themselves, and if they feared and hated the Orcs, they hated the Eldar no less, and the Exiles most of all; for the Noldor, they said, had stolen their lands and their homes. Long ere King Finrod Felagund came over the Sea, the caves of Nargothrond were discovered by them, and by them its delving was begun; and beneath the crown of Amon Rûdh, the Bald Hill, the slow hands of the Petty-Dwarves had bored and deepened the caves through the long years that they dwelt there, untroubled by the Grey-elves of the woods. But now at last they had dwindled and died out of Middle-earth, all save Mîm and his two sons; and Mîm was old even in the reckoning of Dwarves, old and forgotten. And in his halls the smithies were idle, and the axes rusted, and their name was remembered only in ancient tales of Doriath and Nargothrond.> {nor did} Túrin did not rebuke him if he spoke ill of the Eldar.
I think that the insertion of this material makes "Turin did not rebuke him if he spoke ill of the Eldar" sound out of place. I think that better would be:

Quote:
Yet, and strange it seemed to them, with Túrin it went otherwise; and he became ever more friendly with the old Dwarf, and listened more and more to his counsels. In the winter that followed he would sit for long hours with Mîm, listening to his lore and the tales of his life; nor did Túrin rebuke him if he spoke ill of the Eldar.<Sil77 {For} Mîm came of Dwarves that were banished in ancient days from the great Dwarf-cities of the east, and long before the return of Morgoth they wandered westward into Beleriand; but they became diminished in stature and in smith-craft, and they took to lives of stealth, walking with bowed shoulders and furtive steps. Before the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost came west over the mountains the Elves of Beleriand knew not what these others were, and they hunted them, and slew them; but afterwards they let them alone, and they were called Noegyth Nibin, the Petty-Dwarves, in the Sindarin tongue. They loved none but themselves, and if they feared and hated the Orcs, they hated the Eldar no less, and the Exiles most of all; for the Noldor, they said, had stolen their lands and their homes. Long ere King Finrod Felagund came over the Sea, the caves of Nargothrond were discovered by them, and by them its delving was begun; and beneath the crown of Amon Rûdh, the Bald Hill, the slow hands of the Petty-Dwarves had bored and deepened the caves through the long years that they dwelt there, untroubled by the Grey-elves of the woods. But now at last they had dwindled and died out of Middle-earth, all save Mîm and his two sons; and Mîm was old even in the reckoning of Dwarves, old and forgotten. And in his halls the smithies were idle, and the axes rusted, and their name was remembered only in ancient tales of Doriath and Nargothrond.>
NA-EX-28.5:
Quote:
Mîm seemed well pleased, and showed much favour to Túrin in return; him only would he admit to his smithy at times, and there they would talk softly together. NA-EX- 28.5<Narn, Note 19 /Thus Túrin did learn /that there {were}[had been] ingots of gold disguised as roots/ in Mîm's sack when they had captured him/, and {refers to}/ that/ Mîm {seeking}/had at that day sought/ {"}for old treasures of a dwarf-house near the 'flat stones'{"}.> Less pleased were the Men; and Andróg looked on with a jealous eye.>
This definitely leaves the last sentence in an awkward position. This sentence must follow "Mim was well-pleased . . ." or the "Less pleased" loses its reference. We could try:

Quote:
Mîm seemed well pleased, and showed much favour to Túrin in return; him only would he admit to his smithy at times, and there they would talk softly together. Less pleased were the Men; and Andróg looked on with a jealous eye. NA-EX-28.5<Narn, Note 19 /But Túrin learned /that there {were}[had been] ingots of gold disguised as roots/ in Mîm's sack when they had found him/, and {refers to}/ that/ Mîm {seeking}/had that day sought/ {"}for old treasures of a dwarf-house near the flat stones{"}.>
But I'm not so sure that the inclusion of the note here is justified. There's no indication that Turin was to learn about the ingots of gold. I think it might be safer simply to omit it; the gold plays no further part in the story anyway.

On to the previous discussion:

NA-EX-19: Ah, I missed that alteration in the sequence of assaults.

NA-EX-21, -22: I suppose you're right.

NA-TI-07: Good idea; using it there seems to work.

NA-TI-07.5: I think you are right. I had been thinking of the "Vale of Sirion" as a smaller region - as, more or less, the area near the confluence of Taeglin and Sirion. But I suppose it makes more sense to think of it as a long valley cut by Sirion all the way down to Andram.

Still, I think that the phrasing of the passage as it now stands suggests a contradiction (even though there isn't one); I would rather make it:

Quote:
Then all those that were of the People of Hador gathered to him, and took him as their captain; and the others with less good will agreed. And at once he led them away out of that country. NA-TI-07.2 <NA; note 11{they}They remained in the Vale of Sirion, {and} [but] {indeed that they were not far from their previous haunts at the time of the Orc-raid on the homes of the Woodmen. In one tentative version they} went away southwards and came to the country {"}above the [Aelin-uial] and the Fens of Sirion{"}; but the men becoming discontented in that {"}harbourless land{"}, Túrin was persuaded to lead them back to the woodlands south of {Teiglin}[Taeglin] where he first encountered them.>
As long as we keep the movement southward, I don't see why we should not also keep the point that they went as far as Aelin-uial but turned back and came more or less back to their "previous haunts".
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Old 10-02-2005, 03:07 PM   #13
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NA-TI-08.5, NA-EX-27.7: Both were planed as footnotes. Maybe my editing was not entierly clear in this.

NA-TI-11: Your suggestions is a good deal better then mine.

NA-TI-28.5: I dessired to clear the riddle, and this was the only way I could think of doing so. If we retain it at all I would suggest to bring in a bit earlier:
Quote:
Yet, and strange it seemed to them, with Túrin it went otherwise; and he became ever more friendly with the old Dwarf, and listened more and more to his counsels. In the winter that followed he would sit for long hours with Mîm, listening to his lore and the tales of his life; nor did Túrin rebuke him if he spoke ill of the Eldar. NA-TI-11 <Sil77 For Mîm came of Dwarves that were banished in ancient days from the great Dwarf-cities of the east, and long before the return of Morgoth they wandered westward into Beleriand; but they became diminished in stature and in smith-craft, and they took to lives of stealth, walking with bowed shoulders and furtive steps. Before the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost came west over the mountains the Elves of Beleriand knew not what these others were, and they hunted them, and slew them; but afterwards they let them alone, and they were called Noegyth Nibin, the Petty-Dwarves, in the Sindarin tongue. They loved none but themselves, and if they feared and hated the Orcs, they hated the Eldar no less, and the Exiles most of all; for the Noldor, they said, had stolen their lands and their homes. Long ere King Finrod Felagund came over the Sea, the caves of Nargothrond were discovered by them, and by them its delving was begun; and beneath the crown of Amon Rûdh, the Bald Hill, the slow hands of the Petty-Dwarves had bored and deepened the caves through the long years that they dwelt there, untroubled by the Grey-elves of the woods. But now at last they had dwindled and died out of Middle-earth, all save Mîm and his two sons; and Mîm was old even in the reckoning of Dwarves, old and forgotten. NA-EX-28.5<Narn, Note 19 /Thus Túrin learned that/{refers to} Mîm {seeking}/had sought/ {"}for old treasures of a dwarf-house near the 'flat stones'{"}.> {And}But in his halls the smithies were idle, and the axes rusted, and {their name}[the name of the Petty-Dwarves] was remembered only in ancient tales of Doriath and Nargothrond.> Mîm seemed well pleased, and showed much favour to Túrin in return; him only would he admit to his smithy at times, and there they would talk softly together. Less pleased were the Men; and Andróg looked on with a jealous eye.>
Thus we would only hint at the gold and admit only that Túrin did learn of the ancient history of Petty-Dwarves.

NA-TI-07.5: I did split use of the note for the reason that it would take some time before the outlaws came the land above Aelin-uial and became discontent their. In addition I find it much better to make Beleg follow them before we tell that they came at least back to the place were Beleg first found their track.

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Old 10-04-2005, 01:13 PM   #14
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NA-EX-30:

Quote:
NA-EX-30 <Ap Narn At this time Andróg, seeking for Mîm's secret store of food, became lost in the caves, and found a hidden stair that led out on to the flat summit of Amon Rûdh/; but he did not at that time tell anybody of it./>
The addition sounds a little awkward to me, though I may be reading too critically. Perhaps:

Quote:
NA-EX-30 <Ap Narn At this time Andróg, seeking for Mîm's secret store of food, became lost in the caves, and found a hidden stair that led out on to the flat summit of Amon Rûdh/; but he spoke of it to no one./>
NA-EX-32:

Quote:
NA-EX-32 <Ap Narn And {either} during the foray just mentioned,{ or on a later occasion}, Andróg, having taken up again bow and arrows in defiance of Mîm's curse, was wounded by a poisoned shaft,>
I think we can safely delete "just mentioned", which is incongruously colloquial, since this is CT's summary anyway:

Quote:
NA-EX-32 <Ap Narn And {either} during the foray {just mentioned, or on a later occasion}, Andróg, having taken up again bow and arrows in defiance of Mîm's curse, was wounded by a poisoned shaft {.}>
Also, I think the last period was supposed to be in deletion brackets rather than underlined.

NA-TI-15.3
Quote:
NA-TI-15.3 <Sil77 {and they}And his man were quickly healed, for though the Grey-elves were less in skill and knowledge than the Exiles from Valinor, in the ways of the life of Middle-earth they had a wisdom beyond the reach of Men.>
Should be:

Quote:
NA-TI-15.3 <Sil77 {and they}And his men were quickly healed, for though the Grey-elves were less in skill and knowledge than the Exiles from Valinor, in the ways of the life of Middle-earth they had a wisdom beyond the reach of Men.>
NA-EX-36:
Quote:
NA-EX-36 <Ap Narn Andróg was cured of this wound by Beleg, but it seems that his dislike and distrust of the Elf was not thereby mitigated; and Mîm's hatred of Beleg became all the fiercer, for he had thus "undone" his curse upon Andróg.
I think we have here more of CT's colloquialisms that can be omitted. I would say:

Quote:
NA-EX-36 <Ap Narn Andróg was cured of this wound by Beleg, but {it seems} that his dislike and distrust of the Elf was not thereby mitigated; and Mîm's hatred of Beleg became all the fiercer, for he had thus {"}undone{"} his curse upon Andróg.
A problem that occurs to me reading over these paragraphs is that, since we never state that they returned to Amon Rudh, it sounds like the whole scene takes place at the camp in the snow. This is fine up until Mim becomes involved - the implication of the text as it stands is that Mim was with them at the camp, which surely was not the case. I think that perhaps the best approach is to add a simple statement to the effect that they returned to Amon Rudh. Perhaps:

Quote:
NA-EX-34.5But still Túrin would not return to Doriath; and Beleg yielding to his love against his wisdom remained with him, /and returned with the men to Bar-en-Danwedh/ and did not depart, and in that time he laboured much for the good of Túrin's company.
NA-EX-38

Quote:
NA-EX-38 <Ap Narn {It is several times emphasized that }Beleg remained throughout opposed to Túrin's grand design, although he supported him;{ that} it seemed to him that the Dragon-helm had worked otherwise with Túrin than he had hoped; and{ that} he foresaw with a troubled mind what the days to come would bring. Scraps of his words with Túrin on these matters are preserved. {In one of these, they}They sat in the stronghold of Echad i Sedryn together, and Túrin said to Beleg:
I think that the sentence "Scraps of his words with Turin on these matters are preserved" is CT's comment about JRRT's text, and cannot be transmuted into a comment by some intra- Legendarium historian about the surviving records of the First Age. I would delete it:

Quote:
NA-EX-38 <Ap Narn {It is several times emphasized that }Beleg remained throughout opposed to Túrin's grand design, although he supported him;{ that} it seemed to him that the Dragon-helm had worked otherwise with Túrin than he had hoped; and{ that} he foresaw with a troubled mind what the days to come would bring. {Scraps of his words with Túrin on these matters are preserved. In one of these, they}They sat in the stronghold of Echad i Sedryn together, and Túrin said to Beleg:
NA-EX-40
Quote:
NA-EX-40 <Ap Narn It is also asserted that Morgoth for a time withheld his hand and made mere feints of attack, {"}So that by easy victory the confidence of these rebels might become overweening; as it proved indeed.{"}>
A minor point, but "So" should not be capitalized:

Quote:
NA-EX-40 <Ap Narn It is also asserted that Morgoth for a time withheld his hand and made mere feints of attack, {"}[s]o that by easy victory the confidence of these rebels might become overweening; as it proved indeed.{"}>
NA-TI-19
Quote:
Then the Ore-captain laughed, and he said to Mîm: {'}["]Assuredly Túrin son of Húrin shall not be slain.{'}["]
A typo: should be "Orc-captain". Also, I thought that our general policy was to use single quotes for speech instead of double.

I have become a bit troubled by the curse of Mim upon Androg. If Androg survives the battle, then the curse cannot be fulfilled. But it seems that at the time the curse was written about, it was most certainly intended to be fulfilled. I think there is a strong case for taking the statement that Androg survived as contradicting the curse of Mim. We must decide, then, from among the following:

1. Androg's survival does not contradict the curse.

2. The curse is to be excised from the narrative.

3. Androg's survival must be taken as a projected change that cannot be implemented.

Old discussion:

NA-EX-28.5: If we retain it, I think this placement is good. But it may not be clear in that position that the statement refers to the time they first came upon Mim. Maybe:

Quote:
NA-EX-28.5<Narn, Note 19 /Thus Túrin learned that/{refers to} Mîm {seeking}/had sought/ {"}for old treasures of a dwarf-house near the 'flat stones'{"} /when they had first found him/.> {And} But in his halls the smithies were idle, and the axes rusted, and {their name}[the name of the Petty-Dwarves] was remembered only in ancient tales of Doriath and Nargothrond.> Mîm seemed well pleased, and showed much favour to Túrin in return; him only would he admit to his smithy at times, and there they would talk softly together. Less pleased were the Men; and Andróg looked on with a jealous eye.>
NA-TI-07.5: I'm afraid I still don't quite follow you here. As I see it, we have two statements:

1. The outlaws remained in the Vale of Sirion
2. The outlaws went south to Aelin-uial and then became discontent and returned.

I think we must either follow 1, follow 2, or decide that they are not contradictory and follow both. In other words, as I see it, the statement that they went south must be treated as an indivisble unit; I don't think we'd be justified in taking only part of that version.
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Old 10-04-2005, 05:05 PM   #15
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NA-EX-34.5: I think that "... and ... and ..." isn't that good. What about:
Quote:
[NA-EX-34.5[/b]But still Túrin would not return to Doriath; and Beleg yielding to his love against his wisdom remained with him, and did not depart /, but returned with the men to Bar-en-Danwedh/, and in that time he laboured much for the good of Túrin's company. ...
Posted by Aiwendil:
Quote:
Also, I thought that our general policy was to use single quotes for speech instead of double.
That's good to know. I think it was discussed before my time and I did never asked but switched forward and backward some times.

Quote:
I have become a bit troubled by the curse of Mim upon Androg. If Androg survives the battle, then the curse cannot be fulfilled. But it seems that at the time the curse was written about, it was most certainly intended to be fulfilled. I think there is a strong case for taking the statement that Androg survived as contradicting the curse of Mim. We must decide, then, from among the following:

1. Androg's survival does not contradict the curse.

2. The curse is to be excised from the narrative.

3. Androg's survival must be taken as a projected change that cannot be implemented.
Why should the cruse not be fullfilled if Androg survives the battle upon Amon Rudh? On the contary it was also never told how he died there. I think he could survie that battle and later die a violent death acording to the curse.

NA-EX-28.5: Your addition is good, even if I do not think it necessary to make it perfectly clear what was meaned. But you seem to have still some doubts about the inclusion?

NA-TI-07.5: Posted by Aiwendil:
Quote:
In other words, as I see it, the statement that they went south must be treated as an indivisble unit; I don't think we'd be justified in taking only part of that version.
I can see your point. But still it sound odd to me first to tell all about the way of Turin and his band and then speak of Beleg starting on thier track in the same area of which we had just told that Túrin had returned to. So what about:
Quote:
Then all those that were of the People of Hador gathered to him, and took him as their captain; and the others with less good will agreed. And at once he led them away out of that country.{ 10}NA-TI-07.2 <NA; note 11 {they}They remained in the Vale of Sirion, and {indeed that they were not far from their previous haunts at the time of the Orc-raid on the homes of the Woodmen. In one tentative version they} went away southwards and came to the country {"}above the Aelinuial and the Fens of Sirion{"}>.
Many messengers had been sent out by Thingol to seek Túrin within Doriath and in the lands near its borders; ...
...
... "Alas!" he cried. "To well did I teach this child of Men craft in wood and field! An Elvish band almost one might think this to be." But they for their part became aware that they were trailed by some tireless pursuer, whom they could not see, and yet could not shake off; and they grew uneasy.{ 11}
NA-TI-07.5 <NA; note 11 {but}And with the men becoming discontented in that {"}harbourless land{"}/ above the Aelinuial and the Fens of Sirion/, Túrin was persuaded to lead them back to the woodlands south of {Teiglin}[Taeglin] where he first encountered them.>
Not long afterwards, as Beleg had feared, the Orcs came across the Brithiach, ...
If that does not go in your oppinion, I think that this would be as fare as I would go:
Quote:
Then all those that were of the People of Hador gathered to him, and took him as their captain; and the others with less good will agreed. And at once he led them away out of that country.{ 10}
Many messengers had been sent out by Thingol to seek Túrin within Doriath and in the lands near its borders; ...
...
... "Alas!" he cried. "To well did I teach this child of Men craft in wood and field! An Elvish band almost one might think this to be." But they for their part became aware that they were trailed by some tireless pursuer, whom they could not see, and yet could not shake off; and they grew uneasy.{ 11}
NA-TI-07.5 <NA; note 11{they}They had remained in the Vale of Sirion, and {indeed that they were not far from their previous haunts at the time of the Orc-raid on the homes of the Woodmen. In one tentative version they went away}had gone southwards and {came}come to the country {"}above the Aelinuial and the Fens of Sirion{"} but the men becoming discontented in that {"}harbourless land{"}, Túrin was persuaded to lead them back to the woodlands south of {Teiglin}[Taeglin] where he first encountered them.>
Not long afterwards, as Beleg had feared, the Orcs came across the Brithiach, ...
All the issues I did not comment on, I agree with Aiwendils versions/comments.

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Old 10-05-2005, 12:07 PM   #16
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NA-EX-34.5: Your suggestions looks good.

Findegil wrote:
Quote:
Why should the cruse not be fullfilled if Androg survives the battle upon Amon Rudh? On the contary it was also never told how he died there. I think he could survie that battle and later die a violent death acording to the curse.
That's a good point. Still, at the time the text was written, the curse was clearly supposed to result in Androg's death during the battle at Amon Rudh. I think that if we have Androg survive (which I suppose we must do), we should simply delete the reference to the curse at this point:

Quote:
There he is said to have fought more valiantly than any, NA-SL-02 but he fell at last {mortally wounded by an arrow; and thus the curse of Mîm was fulfilled.} [but alone of all]> <Aelfwine & Dirhaval A the outlaw-band of Túrin{, and alone} he survived the battle on the summit of Amon Rudh.>
NA-EX-28.5: I suppose I'm ultimately for the inclusion of this bit.

NA-TI-07.5: Your first suggestion looks good to me.

If this section is settled, I'll move on to the next section as soon as I get a chance - possibly tonight but more likely tomorrow or Friday.
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Old 10-06-2005, 04:33 PM   #17
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the Curse on Androg: What a bad argument on my side! That what a bad memory creats! Your suggestions is good, but I think wounded should be used to clear it up ultimatly:
Quote:
NA-EX-41 <Ap Narn It was only then that {he} [Andróg] revealed to Túrin the existence of the inner stair; and he was one of those who came by that way to the summit. There he is said to have fought more valiantly than any, NA-SL-02 but he fell at last{ mortally} wounded {by an arrow; and thus the curse of Mîm was fulfilled.}[but alone of all]> <Aelfwine & Dírhaval A the outlaw-band of Túrin{, and alone}he survived the battle on the summit of Amon Rûdh.>
Without the point above we are then done with this section.

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Old 05-07-2007, 05:11 AM   #18
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Meadhros and Aiwendil, please let me know when it is okay for you that I start posting diffrences between The Children of Húrin and our version of the Narn. What I post might be bad spoilers to your reading of The Children of Húrin.

Also this is a warning to all: If you did not jet finish The Children of Húrin and are not interested knowing beforehand what is diffrent in that book DO NOT READ further in this thread.

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Old 05-07-2007, 09:13 AM   #19
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Meadhros and Aiwendil, please let me knowwhen it is okay for that I start posting diffrences between The CHildren of Húrin and our version of the Narn. What I post might be bad spoilers to your reading of The CHildren of Húrin.
Hmmmmm. I don't know. I will get my Children of Húrin book in July, but I have no problem with you posting the changes in it. I mean, it's not as if I haven't read the story before.
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Old 05-08-2007, 01:24 PM   #20
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Yes, post away by all means.
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Old 05-15-2007, 01:08 PM   #21
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First a general lock on the texts. I give here a part of the Appendix of CoH:
Quote:
From Túrin in Doriath the new text is a good deal changed in relation to that in Unfinished Tales. There is here a range of writing, much of it very rough, concerned with the same narrative elements a different stages of development, and in such a case it is obviously possible to take different views on how the original material should be treated. I have come to think that when I composed the text in Unfinished Tales I allowed myself more editorial freedom than was necessary. In this book I have reconsidered the original manuscripts and reconstituted the text, in many (usually very minor) places restoring the original words, introducing sentences or brief passages that should not have been omitted, correcting a few errors, and making different choices among the original readings.
...
The major lacuna in the narrative as given in Unfinished Tales (p. 104) is filled in the new text on pages 141 to 181, from the end of the section Of Mîm the Dwarf and through The Land of Bow and Helm, The Death of Beleg, Túrin in Nargothrond, and The Fall of Nargothrond.
There is a complex relationship in this part of the 'Túrin saga' between the original manuscripts, the story as it is told in The Silmarillion, the disconnected passages collected in the appendix to the Narn in Unfinished Tales, and the new text in this book. I have supposed that it was my father's general intention, in the fullness of time, when he had archived to his satisfaction the 'great tale' of Túrin, to derive from it a much briefer form of the story in what one may call 'the Silmarillion mode'. But of course this did not happen; and so I undertook, now more than thirty years ago, the strange task of trying to simulate what he did not do: the writing of a 'Silmarillion' version of the latest form of the story, but deriving this from the heterogeneous materials of the 'long version', the Narn. That is Chapter 21 in the published Silmarillion.
Thus the text in this book that fills the long gap in the story in Unfinished Tales is derived from the same original materials as is the corresponding passage in The Silmarillion (pp. 204-15), but they are used for different purpose in each case, and in the new text with a better understanding of the labyrinth of drafts and notes and their sequence. Much in the original manuscripts that was omitted or compressed in The Silmarillion remains available; but where there was nothing to be added the Silmarillion version (as in the tale of the death of Beleg, derived from the Annals of Beleriand that version is simply repeated.
In the result, while I have had to introduce bridging passages here and there in the piecing together of different drafts, there is no element of extraneous 'invention' of any kind, however slight, in the longer text here presented. The text is nonetheless artificial, as it could not be otherwise: the more especially since this great body of manuscripts represents a continual evolution in the actual story. ...
Thus we learn how to handle the different texts: lowest priority is given to the version in the Sil77, then follows the body of the text of the Narn and then the text of CoH, but highest priority is given to the fragments in the appendix to the Narn and GA since there was no external need for any editing of style or for consistency.

In general therefore I followed the in my comparison the text and structure of CoH instead of the [b]Narn[B] or the Sil77. Exceptions of this will be mentioned.

On exception is the use of 'thou' instead of 'you' etc.. In CoH 'you' is used throughout, but in Unfinished Tales it is attested that this is not the case in the original manuscripts. Therefore where ever we have the information that once there was a 'thou' used in a place I kept that.

I have marked all changes that I introduce but I did not give a editing mark with a number to each change because of the great amount of changes. I will also not give here each and every small change of wording, since that would mean giving the text in full which is not appropriate (here).

While reading and preparing the text I found a few possible addition from earlier sources that we missed as yet. They will also be given in the following posts.

Respectfully
Findegil
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Old 05-15-2007, 01:32 PM   #22
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... knew her in her short life.
Huor wedded Rían, the cousin of Morwen; she was the daughter of Belegund son of Bregolas. By hard fate was she born into such days, for she was gentle of heart and loved neither hunting nor war. Her love was given to trees and to the flowers of the wild, and she was a singer and a maker of songs. Two months only had she been wedded to Huor when he went with his brother to the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, and she never saw him again.{ 1}

NA-TI-02b <CoH But now the tale returns to Húrin and Huor in the days of their youth. It is said that for a while the sons of Galdor dwelt in Brethil as foster-sons of Haldir their uncle, according to the custom of Men in that time. They often went to battle with the Men of Brethil against the Orcs, who now harried the northern borders of their land; for Húrin, though only seventeen years of age, was strong, and Huor the younger was already as tall as most full-grown men of that people.
On a time Húrin and Huor went with a company of scouts, but they were ambushed by the Orcs and scattered, and the brother were pursued to the ford of Brithiach. There ...
This is the intro to the yourney to Gondolin. It is changed in sofar as the battle with the Orcs is not a speacial one which in my view is disearable. I changed the complet text of teh Gondolin episode to CoH since it is easier in the text composition without changing anythink substantially from out composit text from Sil77 and GA.
Quote:
At this time Túrin was almost eight years old, in the month of Gwaeron in the reckoning of the Edain, in the year that cannot be forgotten. Already there were rumours among his elders of a great mustering and gathering of arms, of which Túrin heard nothing; NA-EX-15.1 <CoH though he marked that his father often looked steadfastly at him, as a man might look at something dear that he must part from.
Now> {and} Húrin, knowing her courage and her guarded tongue, often spoke with Morwen ...
...
‘If such an evil time should indeed come, what help would there be in Men?’ said Morwen. ‘The House of Bëor has fallen. If the great House of Hador falls, in what holes shall the little Folk of Haleth creep?’
NA-EX-15.2 <CoH ‘In such as they can find,’ said Húrin, ‘but do not doubt their valour, though they are few and unlearned >{‘They are few and unlearned, but do not doubt their valour,’ said Húrin. ‘}Where else is hope?’
‘You do not speak of Gondolin,’ said Morwen.
...
‘Then if your kin are not hopeful, and your friends deny you,’ said Morwen, ‘I must take counsel for myself; and to me now comes the thought of Doriath. NA-EX-15.3 <CoH
‘Ever your aim is high,’ said Húrin.
‘Over-high, you would say?’ said Morwen. ‘But last> {Last} of all defences will the Girdle of Melian be broken, I think; ...
...
... the Elven-kings are resolved to restore all the fiefs of Bëor's house to his {heirs;} NA-EX-15.4 <CoH heir; and that is you Morwen daughter of Baragund. Wied lordship we should then wield,> and a high inheritance will come to our son.’
NA-EX-15.5 <CoH ‘Húrin Thalion,’ said Morwen, ‘this I judge truer to say: that you look high and I fear to fall low.’
‘That at the worst you need not fear,’ said Húrin.>
That night Túrin half-woke, ...
A small additions only.
Quote:
... Húrin had passed over the shoulder of the hill, beyond which he could see his house no more.

NA-EX-16 {The Words of Húrin and Morgoth} <Sil77 27 Of the Fifth Battle: Nirnaeth Arnoediad, NA-EX-16.1 <CoH The Battel of Unnumbered Tears>
Many songs are sung and ...
Here I added the title given to the chapter in CoH tha that on that we had chosen from Sil77.
Quote:
Then Fingon looked out from the walls of Eithel Sirion, and his host was arrayed in the valleys and woods upon the east NA-EX-16.2 CoH {borders} of Eryd-wethion, well hid from the eyes of the Enemy; but he knew that it was very great.
This change is debatable, but I think in CoH the text from the Narn version is given in full.

Thus far for the moment. There is more to come soon.
Respectfully
Findegil

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Old 05-17-2007, 08:46 AM   #23
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... Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatarni, utúlie'n aurë! (The day has come! {Lo}NA-EX-17.1 <CoH Behold>, people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!) And all those who heard his great voice echo in the hills answered crying: Auta i lómë! (The night is passing!)
...
... And they hewed off Gelmir's {hands and feet}NA-EX-17.2 <CoH arms and legs>, and his head last, within sight of the Elves, and left him.
By ill chance, at that NA-TI-04.2 {place in the outworks}<GA; appended Note 2 point in the outposts> stood Gwindor NA-EX-17.3 <CoH son of Guillin with many folk> of Nargothrond{,}<CoH and indeed he had marched to war with such strength as he could gather because of his grief for the taking of his>{the} brother{ of} Gelmir. Now his wrath was kindled to madness, and he leapt forth on horseback, and many riders with him; and they pursued the heralds and slew them{, and drove on deep into the main host } NA-EX-17.4 <CoH ; and all the folk of Nargothrond followed after, and they drove on deep into the ranks> of Angband. And seeing this all the host of the Noldor was set on fire, and Fingon put on his white helm and sounded his trumpets, and all the host of Hithlum leapt forth from the hills in sudden onslaught.
The light of the drawing of the swords of the Noldor was like a fire in a field of reeds; and so fell and swift was their onset that almost the designs of Morgoth went astray. Before the NA-EX-17.5 <CoH decoying> army that he sent westward could be strengthened it was swept away <CoH and destroyed>, and the banners of Fingon passed over Anfauglith and were raised before the walls of Angband.
Ever in the forefront of that battle went Gwindor and the Elves of Nargothrond, and even now they could not be restrained; and they burst through the NA-EX-17.6 <CoH outer>Gate and slew the guards {upon the very stairs}<CoH within the very courts> of Angband, and Morgoth trembled upon his deep throne, hearing them beat upon his doors. But they were trapped there, and all were slain save Gwindor only, whom they took alive; for Fingon could not come to their aid. By many secret doors in Thangorodrim Morgoth had let issue forth his main host that he held in waiting, and Fingon was beaten back with great loss from the walls> NA-EX-17.7 <CoH of Angband.>
Small additions. In NA-EX-17.2 in CoH the head of Gelmir is not cut of, but I think we can led it stand on the basis of GA. It is also interisting that Gwindor does no longer enter Angband, but only come to the court. The concept of an outer gate has never been heard before, I think.
Quote:
... Turgon restrained most of his people from the rash onslaught. Now he hastened to the aid of his brother; and the Gondolindrim were strong and clad in mail, and their ranks shone like a river of steel in the sun> NA-EX-22.1 <CoH , for the sword and harness of the least of the warriors of Turgon was worth more than the ransom of any king among Men.>
...
Then Turgon took the counsel of Húrin and Huor, and summoning all that remained of the host of Gondolin and such of Fingon's people as could be gathered he NA-EX-22.2 <CoH gave orders that his host should begin a> retreated towards the Pass of Sirion; and his captains Ecthelion and Glorfindel guarded the flanks to right and left, so that none of the enemy should pass them by <CoH , for the only road in that region was narrow and ran near the west bank of the growing stream Sirion>. But the Men of Dor-lómin held the rearguard, ...
...
... 'Aurë entuluva! Day shall come again!' Seventy times he uttered that cry; but they took him at last alive, by the command of Morgoth, NA-EX-22.3 <CoHwho thought thus to do him more evil than by death. Therefore> {for} the Orcs grappled him with their hands, ...
...
NA-TI-04.8 <GA; §241 Great indeed now was the triumph of Morgoth; and his design was accomplished in a manner after his own heart; for Men took the lives of Men, and betrayed the Eldar, and fear and hatred were aroused among those that should have been united against him. From that day indeed began the estrangement of Elves from Men, save only from those of the Three Houses of Bëor, Hador, and Haleth, and their children.
The March of {Maidros}[Maeðros] was no more. The fell sons of Fëanor were broken and wandered far away in the woods as leaves before the wind. The Gorge of Aglon was filled with Orcs, and the Hill of Himring was garrisoned by soldiers of Angband; the pass of Sirion was pierced NA-EX-22.5 { and Tol-sirion retaken and its dread towers rebuilt}. All the gates of Beleriand were in the power of Morgoth. The realm of Fingon was no more. To Hithlum came back never one of Fingon's host, nor any of the Men of Hador, nor any tidings of the battle and the fate of their lords.> NA-EX-22.6 <CoH {Great was the triumph of Morgoth, though} Though all the purposes of Morgoths maliece were not yet accomplished. One thought troubled him deeply and marred his victory with unquiet: Turgon had escaped the net, of all his foes the one whom he most desired to take or destroy. For Turgon of the great house of Fingolfin was now by right King of all the Noldor; and Morgoth feared and hated most the house of Fingolfin, because they had scorned him in Valinor, and had the friendship of Ulmo his foe, and because of the wounds that Fingolfin gave him in battle. And most of all Morgoth feared Turgon, for of old in Valinor his eye had lighted on him, and whenever he drew near a dark shadow had fallen on his spirit, foreboding that in some time that lay yet hidden in doom, from Turgon ruin should come to him.>

NA-EX-22.7 <CoH The Words of Húrin and Morgoth
Now by the command of Morgoth> NA-EX-24 <GA {Now} the Orcs in token of the great triumph of Angband gathered with great labour all the bodies of their enemies that were slain, and all their harness and weapons, and they piled them, Elves and Men, in a NA-EX-24.1 <CoH mound> {great hill} in the midst of the Anfauglith. {Haud-ina-Nengin}[Hauð-en-Nirnaeth] was the name of that mound, and it was like unto a {hill}<CoH great hill that could be seen from afar>. But thither alone in all the desert the grass came, and grew again long and green, and thereafter no {Orc}<CoH servant of Morgoth> dared tread upon the earth beneath which the swords of the Noldor crumbled into rust.>
NA-EX-24.5 <GA, §252 And Morgoth now broke his pledges to the Easterlings that had served him, and denied to them the rich lands of Beleriand which they coveted, and he sent away these evil folk into Hithlum, and there commanded them to dwell NA-EX-24.6 <CoH ; and he shut them in that land and forbade them to leave it. That was all that he gave them of the rich rewards that he had promised them for their treachery to {Maedhros}[Maeðros]: to plunder and harass the old and the children and the womenfolk of Hadors people>. And little though they now loved their new king, yet they despised the remnant of the folk of Hador {(the aged and the women and the children for the most part)}, and they oppressed them, and took their lands and goods, and wedded their women by force, and enslaved their children. And those of the Grey-elves that had dwelt there fled into the mountains, or were taken to the mines of the North and laboured there as thralls.> NA-EX-24.7 <CoH Orcs went freely through all the North and pressed ever shoutward into Beleriand. There> NA-EX-25 <GA Doriath indeed remained, and Nargothrond was hidden, and Círdan held the Havens; but Morgoth gave small heed to them as yet, either for he knew little of them, or because their hour was not yet come in the deep purposes of his malice.> NA-EX-25.01 <CoH But his thought ever returned to Turgon.
Therefore>{but now is to be told only of what befell Húrin son of Galdor, Lord of Dor-lómin, when beside the stream of Rivil he was taken at last alive by the command of Morgoth, and carried off to Angband.
}Húrin was brought before Morgoth, for Morgoth knew by his arts and his spies that Húrin had the friendship of the King of Gondolin; and {he sought to daunt him with his eyes. But Húrin could not yet be daunted, and he defied Morgoth. Therefore Morgoth had him chained and set in slow torment; but after a while he came to him,} NA-EX-25.02 <editorial bridge the Narn tells:
><Lay Said the dread Lord of Hell: __ 'Dauntless Hurin,
stout steel-handed, __ stands before me
yet quick a captive, __ as a coward might be!
Then knows he my name, __ or needs be told
what hope he has __ in the halls of iron? {80}5
The bale most bitter, __ Balrogs' torment!'

Then Húrin answered, __ Hithlum's chieftain -
his shining eyes __ with sheen of fire
in wrath were reddened: __ 'O ruinous one,
by fear unfettered __ I have fought thee long, {85}10
nor dread thee now, __ nor thy demon slaves,
fiends and phantoms, __ thou foe of NA-RG-00.01 {Gods}[the free]!'
His NA-EX-25.03 {dark}[doused] tresses, __ drenched and tangled,
that fell o'er his face __ he flung backward,
in the eye he looked __ of the evil Lord - {90}15
since that day of dread __ to dare his glance
has no mortal Man __ had might of soul.
There the mind of Húrin __ in a mist of dark
neath gaze unfathomed __ groped and foundered,
yet his heart yielded not __ nor his haughty pride. {95}20
But Lungorthin __ Lord of Balrogs
on the mouth smote him, __ and Morgoth smiled:
'Nay, fear when thou feelest, __ when the flames lick thee
and the whistling whips __ thy white body
and wilting flesh __ weal and torture!' {100}25
Then hung they helpless __ Húrin dauntless
in chains by fell __ enchantments forged
that with fiery anguish __ his flesh devoured,
yet loosed not lips __ locked in silence
to pray for pity. __ Thus prisoned saw he {105}30
on the sable walls __ the sultry glare
of far-off fires __ fiercely burning
down deep corridors __ and dark archways
in the blind abysses __ of those bottomless halls;
there with mourning mingled __ mighty tumult {110}35
the throb and thunder __ of the thudding forges'
brazen clangour; __ belched and spouted
flaming furnaces; __ there faces sad
through the glooms glided __ as the gloating Orcs
their captives herded __ under cruel lashes. {115}40
Many a hopeless glance __ on Húrin fell,
for his tearless torment __ many tears were spilled.

Lo! Morgoth remembered __ the mighty doom,
the weird of old, __ that the Elves in woe,
in ruin and wrack __ by the reckless hearts {120}45
of mortal Men __ should be meshed at last;
that treason alone __ of trusted friend
should master the magic __ whose mazes wrapped
the children of NA-RG-00.02 {Cor}[Tirion], __ cheating his purpose,
from defeat fending __ Fingolfin's son, {125}50
Turgon the terrible, __ and the troth-brethren
the sons of Fëanor, __ and secret, far,
homes hid darkly __ in the hoar forest
where Thingol was throned __ in the Thousand Caves.

Then the Lord of Hell __ lying-hearted {130}55
to where Hurin hung __ hastened swiftly,
and the Balrogs about him __ brazen-handed
with flails of flame __ and forged iron
there laughed as they looked __ on his lonely woe;
but Bauglir said: __ 'O bravest of Men, {135}60
'tis fate unfitting __ for thus fellhanded
warrior warfain __ that to worthless friends
his sword he should sell, __ who seek no more
to free him from fetters __ or his fall avenge.
While shrinking in the shadows __ they shake fearful {140}65
in the hungry hills __ hiding outcast
their league belying, __ lurking faithless,
he by evil lot __ in everlasting
dungeons droopeth __ doomed to torment
and anguish endless. __ That thy arms unchained {145}70
I had fainer far __ should a falchion keen
or axe with edge __ eager flaming
wield in warfare __ where the wind bloweth
the banners of battle - __ such a brand as might
in my sounding smithies __ on the smitten anvil {150}75
of glowing steel __ to glad thy soul
be forged and fashioned, __ yea, and fair harness
and mail unmatched - __ than that marred with flails
my mercy waiving __ thou shouldst moan enchained
neath the brazen Balrogs' __ burning scourges: {155}80
who art worthy to win __ reward and honour
as a captain of arms __ when cloven is mail
and shields are shorn, __ when they shake the hosts
of their foes like fire __ in fell onset.
Lo! receive my service; __ forswear hatred, {160}85
ancient enmity __ thus ill-counselled -
I am a mild master __ who remembers well
his servants' deeds. __ A sword of terror
thy hand should hold, __ and a high lordship
as Bauglir's champion, __ chief of Balrogs, {165}90
to lead o'er the lands __ my loud armies,
whose royal array __ I already furnish;
on Turgon the troll __ (who turned to flight
and left thee alone, __ now leaguered fast
in waterless wastes __ and weary mountains) {170}95
my wrath to wreak, __ and on redhanded
NA-RG-00.03 {robber-Gnomes}[robber-Exiles], __ rebels, and roaming Elves,
that forlorn witless __ the Lord of the World
defy in their folly - __ they shall feel my might.
I will bid men unbind thee, __ and thy body comfort! {175}100
Go follow their footsteps __ with fire and steel,
with thy sword go search __ their secret dwellings;
when in triumph victorious __ thou returnest hither,
I have hoards unthought-of' - __ but Húrin Thalion
suffered no longer __ silent wordless; {180}105
through clenched teeth __ in clinging pain,
'O accursed king', __ cried unwavering,
'thy hopes build not __ so high, Bauglir;
no tool am I __ for thy treasons vile,
who tryst nor troth __ ever true holdest- {185}110
seek traitors elsewhere.'

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Then returned answer
Morgoth amazed __ his mood hiding:
'Nay, madness holds thee; __ thy mind wanders;
my measureless hoards __ are mountains high {190}115
in places secret __ piled uncounted
agelong unopened; __ NA-RG-00.04 {Elfin}[Elven] silver
and gold in the gloom __ there glister pale;
the gems and jewels __ once jealous-warded
in the mansions of the Gods, __ who mourn them yet, {195}120
are mine, and a meed __ I will mete thee thence
of wealth to glut __ the Worm of Greed{.},'>
and he offered him his choice to go free whither he would{, or to receive power and rank as the greatest of Morgoth's captains}, if he would but reveal where Turgon had his stronghold, and aught else that he knew of the King's counsels. ...
NA-EX-22.1 to NA-EX-22.3, NA-EX-22.6, NA-EX-24.1, NA-EX-22.6, NA-EX-224.7, and NA-EX-25.01 are only small additions or changes of wording.
NA-EX-22.7 does change the possition of the headline slightly.
NA-EX-25.02 Here we come to the first text from an older source. I found that the Lay did recount the first conversation and the following torment of Húrin in much more elaborted form. Thus it seems fitting for me to insert it here.
NA-RG-00.01 'Gods' must go here. I changed the sence but hoped to keep up with the aliteration.
NA-EX-25.03 Húrin has no longer 'dark tresses', I hope 'doused' is any good in this place. I am always open for better ideas.
NA-RG-00.02 Does Tirion fit in this line?
NA-EX-00.03 Exiles is good in sence but otherwise?
Quote:
... For this reason they also feared and avoided the mountains, in which many of the Eldar had taken refuge, especially in the south of the land; and after plundering and harrying {they} NA-EX-25.04 <CoH the Easterlings> drew back northwards. ...
...
... and though they were now aged they were valiant, and they knew well the lands, for they had journeyed often through Beleriand in former times. Thus by fate and courage they passed over the Shadowy Mountains, and coming down into the Vale of Sirion they passed into the Forest of Brethil; and {at last, weary and haggard, they reached the confines of Doriath. But there they became bewildered, and were enmeshed in the mazes of the Queen, and wandered lost amid the pathless trees, until all their food was spent. There they came near to death, for winter came cold from the North; but not so light was Túrin's doom. Even as they lay in despair they heard a horn sounded. Beleg the Strongbow was hunting in that region, for he dwelt ever upon the marches of Doriath, and he was the greatest woodsman of those days. He heard their cries and came to them, and when he had given them food and drink he learned their names and whence they came, and he was filled with wonder and pity.} NA-EX-25.05 <editorial bridge in the Narn it is told:
><Lay The ways were weary __ and woven with deceit
o'er the hills of Hithlum __ to the hidden kingdom
deep in the darkness __ of Doriath's forest,
and never ere now __ for need or wonder
had children of Men __ chosen that pathway, {350}5
save Beren the brave __ who bounds knew not
to his wandering feet __ nor feared the woods
or fells or forest __ or frozen mountain,
and few had followed __ his feet after.
There was told to Túrin __ that tale by NA-RG-00.05 {Halog}[Grithnir] {355}10
that in the Lay of Leithian, __ Release from Bonds,
in linked words __ has long been woven,
of Beren {Ermabwed}[Erchamion], __ the boldhearted;
how Lúthien the lissom __ he loved of yore
in the enchanted forest __ chained with wonder - {360}15
Tinúviel he named her, __ than nightingale
more sweet her voice, _ as veiled in soft
and wavering wisps __ of woven dusk
shot with starlight, __ with shining eyes
she danced like dreams __ of drifting sheen, {365}20
pale-twinkling pearls __ in pools of darkness;
how for love of Lúthien __ he left the woods
on that quest perilous __ men quail to tell,
thrust by Thingol __ o'er the thirst and terror
of the Lands of Mourning; __ of Lúthien's tresses, {370}25
and Melian's magic, __ and the marvellous deeds
that after happened __ in Angband's halls,
and the NA-EX-25.06 {flight}[fear] o'er fell __ and forest pathless
when Carcharoth __ the cruel-fanged,
the wolf-warden __ of the Woeful Gates, {375}30
whose vitals fire __ devoured in torment
NA-EX-25.07 {them}[there] hunted howling __ (the hand of Beren
he had bitten from the wrist __ where that brave one held
the nameless wonder, __ the NA-RG-00.06 {Gnome}[Elven]-crystal
where light living __ was locked enchanted, {380}35
all hue's essence. __ His heart was eaten,
and the woods were filled __ with wild madness
in his dreadful torment, __ and Doriath's trees
did shudder darkly __ in the shrieking glens);
how the hound of NA-RG-00.07 {Hithlum}[Valinor], __ Huan wolf-bane, {385}40
to the hunt hasted __ to the help of Thingol,
and as dawn came dimly __ in Doriath's woods
was the slayer slain, __ but silent lay
there Beren bleeding __ nigh brought to death,
till the lips of Lúthien __ in love's despair {390}45
awoke him to words, __ ere he winged afar
to the long awaiting; __ thence Lúthien won him,
the Elf-maiden, __ and the arts of Melian,
her mother Mablui __ of the moonlit hand,
that they dwell for ever __ in days ageless {395}50
and the grass greys not __ in the green forest
where East or West __ they ever wander.
Then a song he made them __ for sorrow's lightening,
a sudden sweetness __ in the silent wood,
that is 'Light as Leaf __ on Linden' called, {400}55
whose music of mirth __ and mourning blended
yet in hearts does echo. __ This did NA-RG-00.08 {Halog}[the henchman] sing them:

The grass was very long and thin,
...
__ Since Beren came to Doriath.

This for hearts' uplifting __ did NA-RG-00.09 {Halog}[the henchman] sing them {485}130
as the frowning fortress __ of the forest clasped them
...
Without bread or water __ with bleeding feet
and fainting strength __ in the forest straying
their death they deemed it __ to die forwandered,
when they heard a horn __ that hooted afar
and dogs baying{.}, __ NA-EX-25.08 <Narn {but not so light was Túrin's doom}but Túrin’s dome being 155
not so lightly brought. __
> Lo! the dreary bents {510}
and hushed hollows __ to the hunt wakened,
and echoes answered __ to eager tongues,
...
'Who are ye?' he asked. __ 'Outlaws, maybe,
hiding, hunted, __ by hatred dogged?' 170

'Nay, for famine and thirst __ we faint,' said NA-RG-00.10{Halog}[Grithnir], {525}
'wayworn and wildered, __ and wot not the road.
...
Then Beleg bade them __ be blithe, saying:
NA-RG-00.11 ‘{The Gods have}[Good you] guided[ the boy,] __ {you} to {good}[grand] keeping;
I have heard of the house __ of Húrin undaunted, 185
and who hath not heard __ of the hills of slain, {540}
of {Nirnaith Ornoth}[Nirnaeth Arnoediad], __ Unnumbered Tears!
To that war I went NA-EX-25.09{not, __ yet}[, __ and still} wage a feud
with the Orcs unending, __ whom mine arrows fleeting
smite oft unseen __ swift and deadly. 190
I am the hunter Beleg __ of the hidden people; {545}
the forest is my NA-EX-25.11{father}[fort] __ and the fells my home.'>
And he looked with liking upon Túrin, for he had the beauty of his mother and the eyes of his father, and he was sturdy and strong.
‘What boon would you have of King Thingol?’ said Beleg to the boy.
‘I would be one of his knights, to ride against Morgoth, and avenge my father,’ said Túrin.
‘That may well be, when the years have increased you,’ said Beleg. ‘For though you are yet small you have the makings of a valiant man, worthy to be a son of Húrin the Steadfast, if that were possible.’ For the name of Húrin was held in honour in all the lands of the Elves. NA-EX-25.12 <editorial bridge in the Narn it is told:
><Lay Then he bade them drink __ from his belt drawing
a flask of leather __ full-filled with wine
that is bruised from the berries __ of the burning South -
the NA-RG-00.12{Gnome-folk}[Noldor] know it, __ from Nogrod the Dwarves {540}
by long ways lead it __ to the lands of the North 5
for the Elves in exile __ who by evil fate
the vine-clad valleys __ now view no more
in the land of NA-RG-00.13{Gods}[good]. __ There was lit gladly
a fire, with flames __ that flared and spluttered, {545}
...
long leagues to cover. __ Now led by ways
devious winding __ through the dark woodland, {560}
by slade and slope __ and swampy thicket, 25
through lonely days, __ long-dragging nights,
they fared unfaltering, __ and their friend they blessed,
who but for Beleg __ had been baffled utterly
by the magic mazes __ of Melian the Queen.> {570}
{Therefore }Beleg gladly became the guide of the wanderers, and he led them to a lodge where he dwelt at that time with other hunters, and there they were housed while a messenger went to Menegroth. ...
NA-EX-25.04 is a small addition that makes the sentence even more understandable.
NA-EX-25.05 I found that the yourney of Túrin to Doritah is underrepresentetd in the Narnand in CoH as well. The Lay has a lot more to tell about it.
NA-RG-00.05 Here I think the neccessary change to Grithnir does not harm the line.
NA-EX-25.06 and NA-EX-25.07 Beren and Lúthein do no longer run over fell and forest. Therefore I tried to change this to the sence that Carcharoth does spread fright over all the land.
NA-RG-00.06 I did not finde a good replacement for 'Gnome'. I hope some one has an better idea.
NA-RG-00.07 The same here for Hithlum which we must change since Huan did not dwell in Hithlum for any considerable long time to call him 'hound of Hithlum'.
NA-RG-00.08 and NA-RG-00.09 'the henchmen' might be to long or does it fit?
NA-EX-25.08 Here I tried to incooperate the only sentence from the prosa account that I felt was not covered by the Lay. But I doubt that my solution is good enough. It this worth doing it at all?
NA-RG-00.10 I see no problem here.
NA-RG-00.11 Again the terible 'Gods'! I hope my solution is not to bad.
NA-EX-25.09 and NA-EX-25.10 Beleg is now attestd in the Nirnaeth, so we have to introduce some change here.
NA-EX-25.11 Again the warm welcome Beleg gave them is much more elaborated in the poem.
NA-RG-00.12 No problem with Noldor here I think.
NA-RG-00.13 Can we call Valinor 'the land of good'?
Quote:
Túrin in Doriath
In the years of his childhood in the kingdom of Doriath Túrin was watched over by Melian, though he saw her seldom. But there was a maiden named Nellas, who lived in the woods; and at Melian's bidding she would follow Túrin if he strayed in the forest, and often she met him there, as it were by chance. NA-EX-27.01 <CoH Then they played together, or walked hand in hand; for he grew swiftly, whereas she seemed no more than a maiden of his own age, and was so in heart for all her elven-years.> From Nellas Túrin learned much ...
...
In the year that Túrin was seventeen years old, his grief was renewed; for all tidings from his home ceased at that time. The power of Morgoth had grown yearly, and all Hithlum was now under his shadow. Doubtless he knew much of the doings of Húrin's NA-EX-27.02 <CoH people and> kin, and had not molested them for a while, so that his design might be fulfilled; ...
...
Thingol looked on Túrin in wonder, seeing suddenly before him in the place of his fosterling a Man and a stranger, tall, dark-haired, looking at him with deep eyes in a white face{. Then Túrin asked Thingol for mail, sword, and shield, and he reclaimed now the Dragon-helm of Dor-lómin; and the king granted him what he sought, saying:} NA-EX-27.03 <CoH , stern and proud; but he did not speak.
‘What do you desire, foster-son?’said Thingol, and guessed that he would ask for nothing small.
‘Mail, sword, and shield of my stature, lord,’ answered Túrin. ‘Also by your leave I will now reclaim the Dragon-helm of my sires.’
‘These you shall have,’ said Thingol. ‘But what need have you yet of such arms?’
‘The need of a man,’ said Túrin; ‘and of a son who has kin to remember. And I need also companions valiant in arms.’
>‘I will appoint you a place among my knights of the sword; for the sword will ever be your weapon{.}<CoH ,’ said Thingol. ‘>With them you may make trial of war upon the marches, if that is your desire.’
{But Túrin said: }‘Beyond the marches of Doriath my heart urges me{;}<CoH said Túrin. ‘For onset against our foe> I long rather {for assault upon the Enemy,} than for defence of the borderlands.’
‘Then you must go alone,’ said Thingol. ‘The part of my people in the war with Angband I rule according to my wisdom, Túrin son of Húrin. No force of the arms of Doriath will I send out at this time; nor in any time that I can yet foresee.’
‘Yet you are free to go as you will, son of Morwen,’ said Melian. ‘The Girdle of Melian does not hinder the going of those that passed in with our leave.’
‘Unless wise counsel will restrain you,’ said Thingol.
‘What is your counsel, lord?’ said Túrin.
‘A Man you seem in stature, <CoH and indeed more than many already,>’ Thingol answered; ‘but nonetheless you have not come to the fullness of your manhood that shall be. <CoH Until that is achieved, you should be patient, testing and training your strength. Then>{ When that time comes, then}, maybe, you can remember your kin; but there is little hope that one Man alone can do more against the Dark Lord than to aid the Elf-lords in their defence, as long as that may last.’
Then Túrin said: ‘Beren my kinsman did more.’
‘Beren, and Lúthien,’ said Melian. ‘But you are over-bold to speak so to the father of Lúthien. Not so high is your destiny, I think, Túrin son of Morwen, though <CoH greatness is in you,> your fate is twined with that of the Elven-folk, for good or for ill. Beware of yourself, lest it be ill.’ Then after a silence she spoke to him again, saying: ‘Go now, fosterson; and {heed the counsel of the king}<CoH take the advice of the King. That will ever be wiser than your own counsel>. Yet I do not think that you will long abide with us in Doriath after the coming of manhood. If in days to come you remember the words of Melian, it will be for your good: fear both the heat and the cold of your heart <CoH , and strive for patience, if you can>.’
Then Túrin bowed before them, and took his leave. ...
...
One only was mightier in arms among the march-wardens of Thingol at that time than Túrin, and that was Beleg Cúthalion; and Beleg and Túrin were companions in every peril, and walked far and wide in the wild woods together.} NA-EX-27.04
<Lay Thus his prowess was proven __ and his praise was noised
and beyond his years __ he was yielded honour,
for by him was holden __ the hand of ruin {755}
from Thingol's folk, __ and NA-RG-00.14 {Thû}[Gorthaur] feared him,
and wide wandered __ the word of Túrin: 5
'Lo! we deemed as dead __ the dragon of the North,
but high o'er the host __ its head uprises,
NA-EX-27.05 its {wings are}worth is spread! __ Who has waked this spirit {760}
and the flame kindled __ of its fiery jaws?
Or is Húrin of Hithlum __ from Hell broken?' 10
NA-RG-00.15 {And Thû}[Gorthaur] who was throned __ as thane mightiest
neath Morgoth Bauglir, __ whom that master bade
'go ravage the realm __ of the robber Thingol {765}
and mar the magic __ of Melian the Queen',
even Thu feared him, and his thanes trembled. 15

One only was there in war greater,
more high in honour in the hearts of the Elves
than Túrin son of Húrin, __ tower of Hithlum, {770}
even the hunter Beleg __ of the hidden people,
whose NA-EX-27.06 {father}[fort] was the forest __ and the fells his home; 20
to bend whose bow, __ Balthronding named,
that the black yewtree __ once bore of yore,
had none the might; unmatched in knowledge {775}
of the woods' secrets __ and the weary hills.
He was leader beloved __ of the light companies 25
all garbed in grey __ and green and brown,
the archers arrowfleet __ with eyes piercing,
the scouts that scoured __ scorning danger {780}
afar o'er the fells __ their foemen's lair,
and tales and tidings __ timely won them 30
of camps and councils, __ of comings and goings,
all the movements of the might __ of Morgoth Bauglir.
Thus Túrin, who trusted __ to targe and sword, {785}
who was fain of fighting __ with foes well seen,
where shining swords __ made sheen of fire, 35
and his corslet-clad __ comrades-in-arms
were snared seldom __ and smote unlooked-for.

Then the fame of the fights __ on the far marches {790}
was carried to the courts __ of the king of Doriath,
and tales of Túrin __ were told in his halls, 40
of the bond and brotherhood __ of Beleg the ageless
with the blackhaired boy __ from the beaten people.
Then the king called them __ to come before him {795}
did Orc-raids lessen __ in the outer lands
ever and often __ unasked to hasten, 45
to rest them and revel __ and to raise awhile
in songs and lays __ and sweet music
the memory of the mirth __ ere the moon was old, {800}
when the mountains were young __ in the morning of the world.>
Thus three years passed, and in that time Túrin came seldom to Thingol's halls; ...
All what we have up to NA-EX-27.04 are small additions that make the text fuller and more detailed, I wonder why they were left out from the Narn.
NA-EX-27.04 I found the description of the warfare of Túrin and Beleg would add to the simple text given in the Narn.
NA-RG-00.14 Gorthaur is longer, but I think it still fits.
NA-EX-27.05 Since the Glaurung had never have wings I do not understand how these wings came ever to be part of the Helm at all, but we surely must eliminate them.
NA-RG-00.15 Thû again. I think it is okay to leave the And out for the longer Gorthauer.
NA-EX-27.06 The same replacement as in NA-EX-25.10.
Quote:
... {Saeros}[Orgol], entering late, was angered, believing that Túrin had done this in pride, and with intent to affront him; and his anger was not lessened to find that Túrin was not rebuked by those that sat there, but welcomed NA-EX-27.07 <CoH as one worthy to sit> among them.
For a while therefore {Saeros}[Orgol] feigned to be of like mind, and took another seat, facing Túrin across the board. ‘Seldom does the march-warden favour us with his company,’ he said; ‘and I gladly yield my accustomed seat for the chance of speech with him.’ <CoH But Túrin, who was in converse with Mablung the Hunter, did not rise, and said only a curt ‘I thank you’.
{Saeros}[Orgol] then plied him with questions, concerning> {And much else he said to Túrin, questioning him concerning the} news from the borders, and his deeds in the wild; but though his words seemed fair, the mockery in his voice could not be mistake ...
...
‘If the cub has a grievance, let him bring it to the King's judgement,’ answered {Saeros}[Orgol]. ‘But the drawing of swords here is not to be excused for any such cause. Outside the hall, if the woodwose draws on me, I shall kill him.’
‘{That seems to me less certain}NA-EX-27.08 <CoH It may well go otherwise>,’ said Mablung; ‘but if either be slain it will be an evil deed, more fit for Angband than Doriath, and more evil will come of it. Indeed I {think}<CoH feel> that some shadow of the North has reached out to touch us tonight. Take heed, {Saeros}[Orgol] son of Ithilbor, lest you do the will of Morgoth in your pride, and remember that you are of the Eldar.’
‘I do not forget it,’ said {Saeros}[Orgol]; but he did not abate his wrath, and through the night his malice grew, nursing his injury.
In the morning NA-EX-27.09 <CoH he waylaid Túrin, as he set off early from Menegroth, intending to go back to the marches. Túrin had gone only a little way when {Saeros}[Orgol] run>{, when Túrin left Menegroth to return to the north-marches, Saeros waylaid him, running} out upon him from behind with drawn sword. ...
...
... But Túrin let him up, and then ‘Run NA-EX-27.10 <CoH , run, mocker of women>!’ he cried. ‘Run! And unless you go as swift as the deer I shall prick you on from behind.’ <CoH Then he set the point of the sword in [Saeros’}[Orgols] buttock; and he> {And Saeros} fled into the wood, crying wildly for help <CoH in his terror>; but Túrin came after him like a hound and however he ran, or swerved, still the sword was behind him to egg him on.
...
‘Hold, hold, Túrin!’ he cried. ‘This is Orc-work in the woods!’ {But Túrin called back: ‘Orc-work in the woods for Orc-words in the hall!’ and sprang again after Saeros; and he,} NA-EX-27.11 <CoH ‘Orc-work there was; this is only Orc-play, ‘ Túrin called back. Before Mablung spoke he had been on the point of releasing {Saeros}[Orlog], but now with a shout he sprang after him again; and {Saeros}[Orlog],> despairing of aid and thinking his death close behind, ran wildly on, until he came suddenly to a brink where a stream that fed Esgalduin flowed in a deep cleft through high rocks, and it was wide for a deer-leap. {There Saeros in}In his {great fear}<CoH terror {Saeros}[Orgol]> attempted the leap; ...
...
... And he turned and looked darkly on Mablung and his companions, who now came up and stood near him on the brink. Then after a silence Mablung said <CoH gravely>: ‘Alas! But come back now ...
...
‘Your words are {unwise} NA-EX-27.12 <CoH too proud>,’ said Mablung, though {in his heart he felt pity for Túrin. ‘}<CoH he pitied the young man. ‘Learn wisadom!> You shall not turn runagate. I bid you return with me, as a friend. And there are other witnesses. When the King learns the truth you may hope for his pardon.’
...
‘Fare free!’ said Mablung; ‘for that is your wish. {But well I do not hope for}<CoH To say well would be vain>, if you go in this way. A shadow is {on your heart}<CoH over you>. When we meet again, may it be no darker.’
...
It is told that when Túrin did not return to the north-marches of Doriath and no tidings could be heard of him, Beleg Strongbow came himself to Menegroth to seek him; and with heavy heart he gathered news of Túrin's deeds and flight. Soon afterwards Thingol and Melian came back to their halls, for the summer was waning; and when the King heard report of what had passed he NA-EX-27.13 <CoH said: ‘This is a grievous matter, which I must hear in full. Though {Saeros}[Orgol], my counsellor, is slain, and Túrin my foster-son has fled, tomorrow I will sit in the seat of judgment, and hear again all in due order, before I speak my doom.’
Next day the King> sat upon his throne <CoH in his court> in the great hall of Menegroth, and about him were all the lords and counsellors , <CoH the chiefs and elders> of Doriath. Then all was searched and NA-EX-27.14 <CoH {Then} many witnesses were heard, and of these Mablung spoke most and clearest. And as he told of the quarrel at table, it seemed to the King that Mablung’s heart leaned to Túrin.
‘You speak as a friend of Túrin son of Húrin?’ said Thingol. ‘I was, but I have loved truth more and longer,’ Mablung answered. ‘Hear me to the end, lord!’
When all was> told, even to the parting words of Túrin{; and at the last}, Thingol sighed, <CoH and he looked at those that sat before him, >and he said: ‘Alas! <CoH I see a shadow on your faces.> How has this shadow stolen into my realm? <CoH Malice is at work here.> {Saeros}[Orgol] I accounted faithful and wise; but if he lived he would feel my anger, for his taunting was evil, and I hold him to blame for all that chanced in the hall. So far Túrin has my pardon. But <CoH I cannot pass over his later deeds, when wrath should have cooled.> {the}The shaming of {Saeros}[Orgol] and the hounding of him to his death were wrongs greater than the offence{, and these deeds I cannot pass over}. They show a hard heart, and proud.’
Then Thingol {fell silent, but at last he spoke again in sadness}<CoH sat for a while in thought, and spoke sadly at last>. ‘This is an ungrateful fosterson, and <CoH in truth> a man too proud for his state. How shall I harbour one who scorns me and my law, or pardon one who will not repent? {Therefore} <CoH This must be my doom.> I will banish Túrin son of Húrin from the kingdom of Doriath. If he seeks entry he shall be brought to judgement before me; and until he sues for pardon at my feet he is my son no longer. If any here accounts this unjust, let him speak{.}<CoH now!>’
Then there was silence in the hall, ...
...
... Then Beleg went out, and led in by the hand the maiden Nellas, who dwelt in the woods, and came never into Menegroth; and she was afraid, {both for}NA-EX-27.15 <CoH as much of> the great pillared hall and the roof of stone{, and for}<CoH as of> the company of many eyes that watched her. ...
...
‘Judgement is mine,’ said Thingol. ‘But what you have told shall govern it.’ Then he questioned Nellas closely; and at last he turned to Mablung, saying: ‘It is strange to me that Túrin said nothing of this to you.’
‘Yet he did not,’ said Mablung{. ‘And had he spoken of it, otherwise would my words have been to him at }NA-EX-27.16 <CoH , ‘or I should have recounted it. And otherwise should I have spoken to him at our> parting.’
...
... and gladly would I welcome him back; for I loved him well.’
{And Beleg answered: ‘I will seek Túrin until I find him, and I will bring him back to Menegroth, if I can; for} NA-EX-27.17 <CoH ‘Give me leave, lord,’ said Beleg, ‘and on your behalf I will redress this evil, if I can. For such manhood as he promised should not run to nothing in the wild. Doriath has need of him, and the need will grow more. And> I love him also.’
Then Thingol said to Beleg: ‘Now I have hope in the quest! Go with my good will, and if you find him, guard him and guide him as you may. ...
...
... They hunted and gathered such food as they could; but NA-EX-27.18 <CoH many took to robbery and became cruel, when hunger or other need drove them. In>{in} winter{ when hunger drove them} they were <CoH most> to be feared{ as}<CoH , like> wolves{,}<CoH ;> and Gaurwaith, the Wolf-men, they were called by those who still defended their homes. Some {fifty}<CoH sixty> of these Men had joined in one band, wandering in the woods beyond the western marches of Doriath; and they were hated scarcely less than Orcs, for there were among them outcasts hard of heart, bearing a grudge against their own kind.
The {grimmest}<CoH hardest> among them was one named Andróg, <CoH who had been> hunted from Dor-lómin for the slaying of a woman; and others also came from that land: old Algund, the oldest of the fellowship, who had fled from the Nirnaeth, and Forweg, as he named himself, the captain of the band, a man with fair hair and unsteady glittering eyes, big and bold, but far fallen from the ways of the Edain of the people of Hador. <CoH Yet he could still be wise and generous at times; and he was the captian of the fellowship. They had dwindled now to some fifty men, by deaths in hardship or affrays; and they>{They} were become{ very} wary, and{ they} set scouts or a watch about them, whether moving or at rest{; and thus}<CoH . Thus> they were quickly aware of Túrin when he strayed into their haunts. They trailed him, and they drew a ring about him{; and}<CoH , so that> suddenly, as he came out into a glade beside a stream, he found himself within a circle of men with bent bows and drawn swords.
...
... ‘for these are our haunts, and {we}<CoH my men> do not allow other men to walk in them. We take their lives as forfeit, unless they can ransom them.’
Then Túrin laughed{.}<CoH grimly>: ‘You will get no ransom from me,{’ he said, ‘}an outcast and an outlaw. You may search when I am dead, but it will cost you dearly to prove my words true. <CoH Many of you are likely to die first.>’
Nonetheless his death seemed near, for many arrows were notched to the string, waiting for the word of the captain; and <CoH though Túrin wore elven-mail under his grey tunic and cloak, some would find a deadly mark. None> {none} of his enemies stood within reach of a leap with drawn sword. But {Túrin, seeing some stones at the stream's edge before his feet, stooped suddenly; and in that instant one of the men, angered by his}<CoH suddenly Túrin stooped, for he had espied some stones at the stream’s edge before his feet. At that moment an outlaw, angered by his proud> words, let fly a shaft{. But}<CoH amid at his face; but> it passed over {Túrin}<CoH him>, and he {springing up}<CoH sprang up again like a bowstring released and> cast a stone at the bowman with great force and true aim; and he fell to the ground with broken skull.
...
... I will take you in his stead, if you will heed my words better.’
NA-EX-27.19 <CoH ‘I will,’ said Túrin, ‘as long as you are captain, and in all that belongs to a captain. But the choice of a new man to a fellowship is not his alone, I judge. All voices should be heard. Are there any here who do not welcome me?’>
Then two of the outlaws cried out against him; and one was a friend of the fallen man. Ulrad was his name. ‘A strange way to gain entry to a fellowship,’ he said: ‘the slaying of one of {the best men.}<CoH our best men!>’
‘Not unchallenged,’ said Túrin. ‘But come then! I will endure you both together, with weapons or with strength alone{; and then}<CoH . Then> you shall see if I am fit to replace one of your best men. <CoH But if there are bows in this test, I must have one too.’ Then he strode towards them; but Ulrad gave back and would not fight. The other threw down his bow <CoH and walked up to meet Túrin. This>{, and looked Túrin up and down; and this} man was Andróg of Dor-lómin. <CoH He stood before Túrin and looked him up and down.
‘Nay,’ he said at length, shaking his head. ‘I am not a chicken-heart, as men know; but>{‘}I am not your match{,’ he said at length, shaking his head. ‘}. There is none here, I think. You may join us, for my part. But there is a strange {look about you}<CoH light in your eyes>; you are a dangerous man. What is your name?’
...
... he did little to restrain their evil deeds. <CoH Thus he soon became hardened to a mean and often cruel life, and yet>{Yet} at times pity and shame would wake in him, ...
...
Then he put up his sword. ‘Come!’ he said to Andróg. ‘We will return. But if you wish to bury your captain, you must do so yourself. Make haste, for a hue and cry may be raised. Bring his weapons!’
NA-EX-27.20 <CoH The woman went off through the woods, and she looked back many times before the trees hid her.> Then Túrin went on his way without more words, and Andróg watched him go, and he frowned as one pondering a riddle.
...
Then Beleg went on his way in haste, and sought for the lairs of the outlaws, and such signs as might show him whither they had gone. These he soon found; but Túrin was now several days ahead, and moved swiftly, fearing the pursuit of the Woodmen and he NA-EX-27.21 <CoH had> used all the arts that he knew to defeat or mislead any that tried to follow {them.}<CoH him> NA-TI-07.5b <NA; note 11 , but with the men becoming discontented in that {"}harbourless land{"}/ above the Aelinuial and the Fens of Sirion/, Túrin was persuaded to lead them back to the woodlands south of {Teiglin}[Taeglin] where he first encountered them.> But he <CoH {He} led his men westward, away from the Woodmen and from the borders of Doriath, until they came to the northern end of the great highlands that rose between the Vales of Sirion and Narog. There the land was drier, and the forest ceased suddenly on the brink of a ridge. Below it could be seen the ancient South road, climbing up from the Crossing of {Teiglin}[Taiglin] to pass along the western feet of the moorlands on its way to Nargothrond. There for a time the outlaws lived warily, remaining seldom>{Seldom did they remain} two nights in one camp, and {they left}<CoH leaving> little trace of their going or staying. ...
Up to NA-TI-07.5b there is little to comment on from my point of view. The movment of Túrin and his band are otherwise recounted by Chrictopher Tolkien as he did in the Narn. It is now questionalbe if we need the southward movment at all. But think it still has some point since it nicely fills the time between Túrins slaying of Forweg and the Orc-attack on the Wood-men.
Quote:
‘The friend of truth, rather,’ said Beleg, ‘and that was best, in the end NA-EX-27.22 <CoH ; though the doom would have benn less just, were it not for the witness of Nellas. Why,>{. But} why, Túrin, did you not speak{ to him} of {Saeros’}[Orgols] assault {upon you}<CoH to Mablung>? All otherwise might things have gone. And,’ he said, looking at the men sprawled near the mouth of the cave, ‘you might have held your helm still high, and not fallen to this.’
...
‘If I stayed beside you, love would lead me, not wisdom, ‘ said Beleg. ‘My heart warns me that we should return to Doriath. NA-EX-27.23 <CoH Elsewhere a shadow lies before us.>’
‘Nonetheless, I will not go there,’ said Túrin.
<CoH ‘Alas!’ said Beleg. ‘But as a fond father who grants his son’s desire against his own foresight, I yielde to your will. At your asking, I will stay.’
‘That is well indeed!’ said Túrin. Then all at once he fell silent, as if he himself were aware of the shadow, and strove with his pride, which would not let him turn back. Far a long while he sat, brooding> {Then Beleg strove once more to persuade him to return to the service of King Thingol, saying that there was great need of his strength and valour on the north-marches of Doriath, and he spoke to him of the new inroads of the Orcs, coming down into Dimbar out of Taur-nu-Fuin by the Pass of Anach. But all his words were of no avail, and at last he said: ‘A hard man you have called yourself, Túrin. Hard you are, and stubborn. Now the turn is mine. If you wish indeed to have the Strongbow beside you, look for me in Dimbar; for thither I shall return.’
Then Túrin sat in silence, and strove with his pride, which would not let him turn back; and he brooded} on the years that lay behind{ him. But coming}<CoH .
Coming> suddenly out of {his }thought he {said to}<CoH looked at> Beleg<CoH , and said>: ‘The Elf-maiden {whom}<CoH that> you named<CoH , though I forget how>: I owe her well for her timely witness; yet I cannot recall her. Why did she watch my ways?’
Then Beleg looked strangely at him. ‘Why indeed?’ he said. ‘Túrin, have you lived always with your heart and half your mind far away? <CoH As a boy you used to walk> {You walked} with Nellas in the woods{ of Doriath; when you were a boy}.’
‘That {was}<CoH must have been> long ago,’ said Túrin. ‘Or so my childhood now seems, and a mist is over it - save only the memory of my father's house in Dor-lómin. But why should I have walked with an Elf-maiden?’
‘To learn what she could teach, maybe,’ said Beleg<CoH , ‘if no more than a few elven-words of the names of woodland flowers. Their names at least you have not forgotten>. {‘}Alas, child of Men! There are other griefs in Middle-earth than yours, and wounds made by no weapon. Indeed I begin to think that Elves and Men should not meet or meddle.’
Túrin said nothing, but looked long in Beleg's face, as if he would read in it the riddle of his words. {But }Nellas of Doriath never saw him again, and his shadow passed from her.{ 12}NA-EX-27.24 <CoH Now Beleg and Túrin turned to other matters, debating where they should dwell. ‘Let us return to Dimbar, on the north-marches, where once we walked together!’ said Beleg eagerly. ...
...
... It is said that Beleg went back to Menegroth, and came> NA-TI-08 <Sil77 {On the next day Beleg set out, and Túrin went with him a bowshot from the camp; but he said nothing. ‘Is it farewell, then, son of Húrin?’ said Beleg. Then Túrin looked out westward, and he saw far off the great height of {Amon Rûdh}[Amon Rûð]; and unwitting of what lay before him he answered: ‘You have said, seek me in Dimbar. But I say, seek for me on {Amon Rûdh}[Amon Rûð]! Else, this is our last farewell.’ Then they parted, in friendship, yet in sadness.
Now Beleg returned to the Thousand Caves, and coming} before Thingol and Melian <CoH and>{he} told them of all that had {befallen}<CoH happened>, save only of his evil handling by Túrin's companions. Then Thingol sighed, and he said: ‘<CoH I took up the fathering of the son of Húrin, and that cannot be laid down for love or hate, unless Húrin the Valiant himself should return. >What more would {Túrin}<CoH he> have me do?’
NA-EX-27.25 ‘Give me leave, lord,’ said Beleg, ‘and I will guard him and guide him as I may; then no man shall say that elven-words are lightly spoken. Nor would I wish to see so great a good run to nothing in the wild.’
Then Thingol gave Beleg leave to do as he would.{; and he said: ‘Beleg Cúthalion! For many deeds you have earned my thanks; ...
...
‘Nonetheless I will wield it while I may,’ said Beleg.}
NA-EX-27.26 <CoH But Melian said: ‘ A gift you shall now have of me, Cúthalion, for your help and your honour, for I have none worthier to give.’> {‘Another gift I will give to you, Cúthalion,’ said Melian, ‘that shall be your help in the wild, and the help also of those whom you choose.’} And she gave him store of lembas, the waybread of the Elves, wrapped in leaves of silver, and the threads that bound it were sealed at the knots with the seal of the Queen, a wafer of white wax shaped as a single flower of Telperion; for according to the customs of the Eldalië the keeping and giving of lembas belonged to the Queen alone. <CoH ‘This waybread, Beleg,’ she said; ‘shall be your help in the wild and the winter, and the help also of those whom you choose. For I commit this now to you, to apportion as you will in my stead.’> In nothing did Melian show greater favour to Túrin than in this gift; for the Eldar had never before allowed Men to use this waybread, and seldom did so again.
...
A view additions here and there as was to expacted upt to the point were we come to the giving of the sword Anglachel and the lembas. to this Christopher Tolkien comments in CoH:
Quote:
In Unfinished Tales there is a third gap in the narrative on p. 96: the story breaks off at the point where Beleg, having found Túrin among the outlaws, cannot persuade him to return to Doriath (pp. 115-19 in the new text), and does not take up again until the outlaws encounter the Petty-dwarves. Here I referred again to The Silmarillion for the filling of the gap, noting that there follows in the story Beleg's farewell to Túrin and his return to Menegroth 'where he received the sword Anglachel from Thingol and lembas from Melian'. But it is in fact demonstrable that my father rejected this; for 'what really happened' was that Thingol gave Anglachel to Beleg after the trial of Túrin, when Beleg first set off to find him. In the present text therefore the gift of the sword is placed at that point (p. 96), and there is no mention there of the gift of lembas. In the later passage, when Beleg returned to Menegroth after the finding of Túrin, there is of course no reference to Anglache in the new text, but only to Melain's gift.
It remains only to mention that in CoH also the paragraph marked here as NA-EX-27.25 is omited. It seems that this paragraph in Sil77 was composed by Christopher Tolkien as an appropirate answer to Thingols question 'What more would Túrin have me do?' For me tha passage look a bit strange without that answer. Do you agree to add this paragraph even so we know now nearly for sure that it is composed by Christopher Tolkien?

Agian it is enough for the moment, I think. Next will be 'Of Mîm the Dwarf' and 'The Land of Bow and Helm', which will end this part.

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Old 05-18-2007, 05:46 PM   #24
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Of Mîm the Dwarf
NA-EX-27.28 <CoH Now the tale turns to Mîm the Petty dwarf. The Petty-dwarves are long out of mind, for Mîm was the last. Little was known of them even in days of old. NA-EX-27.29 <Sil77 Before the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost came west over the mountains the Elves of Beleriand knew not what these others were, and they hunted them, and slew them; but afterwards they let them alone, and they were called Noegyth Nibin, the Petty-Dwarves, in the Sindarin tongue.> The Nbin-nogrim the Elves of Beleriand called them long ago, but they did not love them; and the Petty-dwarves loved none but themselves. If they hated and feared the Orcs, they hated alos the Eldar, and the Exiles most of all; for the Noldor, they said, had stolen their lands and their homes. Nargothrond was first found and its delving begun by Petty-dwarves, long before Finrod Felagund came over the Sea.
They came, some said, of Dwarves that were banished from the great Dwarf-cities of the east in ancient days. Long before the return of Morgoth they had wandered westward. Being masterless and few in number, they found it hard to come by ore of metals, and their smith-craft and store of weapons dwindled; and they took to live of stealth, and became somewhat smaller in stature than their eastern kin, walking with bowed shoulders and quick, furtive steps. Nonetheless, as all Dwarf-kind, they were far stronger than their stature promised and they could cling to life in great hardship. But now at last they had dwindled and died out of Middle-earth, all save Mîm and his two sons; and Mîm was old even in the reckoning of Dwarves, old and forgotten.> NA-EX-27.30 <Sil77 And in his halls the smithies were idle, and the axes rusted, and their name was remembered only in ancient tales of Doriath and Nargothrond.>

After the departure of Beleg (and that was in the second summer after the flight of Túrin from Doriath){13} things went ill for the outlaws. There were rains out of season, and Orcs in greater numbers than before came down from the North and along the old south road over {Teiglin}[Taeglin], troubling all the woods on the west borders of Doriath. There was little safety or rest, and the company were more often hunted than hunters.
One night as they lay lurking in the fireless dark, Túrin looked on his life, and it seemed to him that it might well be bettered. ‘I must find some secure refuge,’ he thought, ‘and make provision against winter and hunger{’; and the next} NA-EX-27.31 <CoH .’ But he did not know whither to turn.
Next> day he led his men away <CoH southward>, further than they had yet come from the {Teiglin}[Taeglin] and the marches of Doriath{. After}<CoH ; and after> three days' journeying they halted at the western edge of the woods of Sirion's Vale. There the land was drier and more bare, as it began to climb up into the moorlands.
Soon after, it chanced that as the grey light of a day of rain was failing Túrin and his men were sheltering in a holly-thicket; and beyond it was a treeless space, in which there were many great stones, leaning or tumbled together. All was still, save for the drip of rain from the leaves.
Suddenly a watchman gave a call, and leaping up they saw three hooded shapes, grey-clad, going stealthily among the stones. They were burdened each with a great sack, but they went swiftly for all that. NA-EX-27.32 <CoH They were burdened each with a great sack, but they went swiftly for all that. >Túrin cried out to them to halt, and the men ran out on them like hounds; but they held on their way, and though Andróg shot arrows {after}<CoH at> them two vanished in the dusk. One lagged behind, ...
...
... Mîm is my name. Do not let them slay me, {lord}<CoH master>, for no cause, as <CoH Orcs> would{ the Orcs}.’
Then Túrin pitied him in his heart, but he said: ‘Poor you seem, Mîm, though that {is}<CoH would be> strange in a Dwarf; but we are poorer, I think: ...
...
Then Mîm clasped Túrin about his knees, saying: ‘Mîm will be your friend, lord. At first {I}<CoH he> thought you were an Elf, by your speech and your voice; but if you are a Man, that is better. Mîm does not love Elves.’
‘Where is this house of yours?’ said Andróg. ‘It must be good indeed {if Andróg is }to share it with a Dwarf. For Andróg does not like Dwarves. His people brought few good tales of that race out of the East.’
<CoH’They left worse tales of themselves behind them,’ said Mîm.> ‘Judge my home when you see it{,’ said Mîm}. {‘}But you will need light on {the}<CoH your> way, you stumbling Men. I will return in good time and lead you.’ <CoH Then he rose and picked up his sack.>
‘No, no!’ said Andróg. ...
... But he marked, and others also, that Mîm set more {value on}<CoH store by the sack and> his load than it seemed worth to the eye.
...
‘Good!’ said Túrin. ‘But now I will add this: I understand your pride. You may die, but you shall not be set in bonds again.’
{Then Mîm}NA-EX-27.33 <CoH ‘I will not,’ said Mîm. ‘But come now!’ And with that> led them back to the place where he had been captured, ...
NA-EX-27.34 <CoH Soon the> {The} company set out westward, and Túrin went at the head with Mîm at his side. They walked warily when they left the woods, but all the land {was} <CoH seemd> empty and quiet. ... rooted in rock. {About}<CoH Beyond, upon the moors and about> the lower slopes of {Amon Rûdh}[Amon Rûð] there grew thickets ...
...
... Then suddenly there was a rock-wall before them, flat-faced and sheer, {towering high above them in the dusk.} NA-EX-27.35 <CoH forty feet high, maybe, but dusk dimmed the sky above them and guess was uncertain.>
‘Is this the door of your house?’ said Túrin. ...
...
... From the {cleft}NA-EX-27.71 <CoH ‘gate’> a path led, and passed soon into a little grove of dwarfed birches ...
... At the mouth of the cave he turned and bowed to Túrin. ‘Enter,{’ he said,}NA-EX-27.72 <CoH lord!’ he said:> ‘{Bar-en-Danwedh}[Bar-en-Danweð], the House of Ransom; for so it shall be called.’
...
... he darted into the passage and disappeared. {Then}<CoH Now> Andróg was all for going forward. ‘Attack first!’ he {said}<CoHcried>. ‘There may be a hive of them; but they are small.’
...
‘Not all your {shafts}<CoH shots> went wild,’ said Túrin to Andróg. ‘But this may prove an ill hit. You lose shaft too lightly; but you may not live long enough to learn wisdom.’
{Then entering softly Túrin}<CoH Leaving the others, Túrin entered softly> stood behind Mîm, and spoke to him. ‘What is the trouble, Mîm?’ he said. ‘I have some healing arts. {Can I give you aid?}<CoHMay I help you?>’
Mîm turned his head, and {there was a red light in his eyes}<CoH his eyes had a red light>. ‘Not unless you can turn back time{,} and{ then} cut off the cruel hands of your men,’ he answered. ‘This is my son{, pierced by an arrow.}<CoH An arrow was in his breast.> Now he is beyond speech. He died at sunset. Your bonds held me from healing him.’
Again pity long hardened welled in Túrin's heart as water from rock. ‘Alas!’ he said. ‘I would recall that shaft, if I could. Now {Bar-en-Danwedh}[Bar-en-Danweð], House of Ransom, shall this be called in truth. For whether we dwell here or no, I will hold myself in your debt; and if ever I come to any wealth, I will pay you a {ransom}<CoH {danwedh}[ danweð] of heavy gold for your son, in token of sorrow, though it gladden your heart no more.’
...
... ‘Do you fear that you have followed a spider to the heart of his web?’ he said. ‘NA-EX-27.73 <CoH Nay, >Mîm does not eat Men. And a spider could ill deal with thirty wasps at a time. See, you are armed, and I stand here bare. No, we must share, you and I: house, food, and fire, an maybe other winnings. The house, I think, you will guard and keep secret for your own good, even when you know the ways in and out. You will learn them in time. But in the meanwhile Mîm must guide you, or Ibun his son <CoH , when you go out; and one will go where you go and return when you return – or await you at some point that you know and can find unguided. Ever nearer and nearer home will that be, I guess>.’
To this Túrin agreed ...
...
But when they were {cooked these roots proved} NA-EX-27.74 <CoH washed the roots proved white and fleshy with their skins, and when> boiled they were good to eat, ...
...
... ‘You are one of the fools that spring would not mourn if you perished in winter,’ he said NA-EX-27.75 <CoH to him>. ‘I had spoken my word, ...
... Northward {he looked}, andNA-EX-27.76 <CoH seeming strangely near, he could> descried the Forest of Brethil climbing green about Amon Obel{ in its midst, and thither}<CoH . Thither he found that> his eyes {were drawn ever and again,}<CoH would stray more often than he wished, though> he knew not why; for his heart was set rather to the northwest, where league upon league away on the skirts of the sky it seemed to him that he could glimpse the Mountains of Shadow{, the walls}<CoH and the borders> of his home. But at evening, Túrin looked west into the sunset, as the sun rode down red into the hazes above the<CoH far> distant coasts, and the Vale of Narog lay deep in the shadows between.
...
... There Mîm would work a times, but would not allow others to be with him NA-EX-27.77 <CoH ; and he did not tell of the secret hidden stair that led from his haous to the flat summit of {Amon Rûdh}[Amon Rûð]{. This Andróg came upon when seeking in hunger to find Mîm’s stores of food he became lost in the caves; but he kept this discovery to himself}>.
During the rest of that year they went on no more raid, ...
...
Yet, and strange it seemed to them, with Túrin it went otherwise; and he became ever more friendly with the old Dwarf, and listened more and more to his counsels. In the winter that followed he would sit for long hours with Mîm, listening to his lore and the tales of his life; nor did Túrin rebuke him if he spoke ill of the Eldar. NA-TI-11 <Sil77{ For Mîm came of Dwarves that were banished in ancient days from the great Dwarf-cities of the east, and long before the return of Morgoth they wandered westward into Beleriand; but they became diminished in stature and in smith-craft, and they took to lives of stealth, walking with bowed shoulders and furtive steps. Before the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost came west over the mountains the Elves of Beleriand knew not what these others were, and they hunted them, and slew them; but afterwards they let them alone, and they were called Noegyth Nibin, the Petty-Dwarves, in the Sindarin tongue. They loved none but themselves, and if they feared and hated the Orcs, they hated the Eldar no less, and the Exiles most of all; for the Noldor, they said, had stolen their lands and their homes. Long ere King Finrod Felagund came over the Sea, the caves of Nargothrond were discovered by them, and by them its delving was begun; and beneath the crown of {Amon Rûdh}[Amon Rûð], the Bald Hill, the slow hands of the Petty-Dwarves had bored and deepened the caves through the long years that they dwelt there, untroubled by the Grey-elves of the woods. But now at last they had dwindled and died out of Middle-earth, all save Mîm and his two sons; and Mîm was old even in the reckoning of Dwarves, old and forgotten. And in his halls the smithies were idle, and the axes rusted, and their name was remembered only in ancient tales of Doriath and Nargothrond.}> NA-EX-28.5b <Narn, Note 19 /Thus Túrin learned that/{refers to} Mîm {seeking}/had sought/ {"}for old treasures of a dwarf-house near the 'flat stones'{"} /when they had first found him/.> Mîm seemed well pleased, and showed much favour to Túrin in return; him only would he admit to his smithy at times, and there they would talk softly together. Less pleased were the Men; and Andróg looked on with a jealous eye.>

NA-TI-12 <Sil77 But when {the year drew on to midwinter,}NA-EX-28.51 <CoH autumn was passed the winter pressed them hard. Before Yule> snow came down from the north heavier than they had known it in the river-vales{, and} <CoH ; at that time, and ever the more as the power of Angband grew, the winters worsened in Beleriand.> {Amon Rûdh}[Amon Rûð] was covered deep; and {they said that the winters worsened in Beleriand as the power of Angband grew. Then} only the hardiest dared stir abroad; and some fell sick, and all were pinched with hunger.> NA-EX-29 <Ap Narn {that through}Because of the improvidence of the outlaws food became short in {Bar-en-Danwedh}[Bar-en-Danweð] during the winter, and Mîm begrudged them the edible roots from his store{;}.> NA-EX-30b <Ap Narn At this time Andróg, seeking for Mîm's secret store of food, became lost in the caves, and found {a}the hidden stair that led out on to the flat summit of {Amon Rûdh}[Amon Rûð]><CoH ; but he kept this discovery to himself.> {NA-TI-13 <Sil77 Then only the hardiest dared stir abroad; and some fell sick, and all were pinched with hunger.>} NA-EX-31b <Ap Narn {therefore in}In the beginning of the year they went out on a hunting foray from the stronghold.> NA-EX-32 {<Ap Narn And {either} during the foray {just mentioned, or on a later occasion,} Andróg, having taken up again bow and arrows in defiance of Mîm's curse, was wounded by a poisoned shaft> NA-EX-33 <Ap Narn {Beleg, approaching {Amon Rûdh}[Amon Rûð], came upon their tracks, and either trailed them to a camp which they were forced to make in a sudden snowstorm, or followed them back to {Bar-en-Danwedh}[Bar-en-Danweð] and slipped in after them.}/and a sudden snwostrom forced them to make a camp in the wild./>}
NA-TI-14 <Sil77 But in the dim dusk of a winter's day there appeared suddenly among them a Man, as it seemed, of great bulk and girth, cloaked and hooded in white; NA-EX-33.1 <CoH . He had alluded their watchmen,> and he walked up to the fire without a word. {And when}<CoH When> men sprang up in fear, he laughed, and threw back his hood, and <CoH they saw that it was Beleg Strongbow. Under>{beneath} his wide cloak he bore a great pack{; and in the light of the fire Túrin looked again on the face of Beleg Cúthalion}<CoH in which he had brought many things for the help of men.>
NA-EX-34b <Ap Narn Beleg, appraoching {Amon Rûdh}[Amon Rûð], {came}had come upon their tracks, and{ either trailed them to a camp which they were forced to make in a sudden snowstorm, or} followed them back to {Bar-en-Danwedh}[Bar-en-Danweð] and slipped in after them.> NA-EX-34.1 <CoH In this way Beleg came back to Túrin, yielding to his love against his wisdom. Túrin was glad indeed, for he had often regretted his stubbornness; and now the desire of his heart was granted without the need to humble himself or to yield his own will. But if Túrin was glad, not so was Andróg, nor some others of his company. It seemed to them that there had been a tryst between Beleg and their captain, which he had kept secret from them; and Andróg watched them jealously as the two sat apart in speech together.
Beleg had brought with him the Helm of Hador; for he hoped>NA-TI-15 <Sil77 {Thus Beleg returned once more to Túrin, and their meeting was glad; and with him he brought out of Dimbar the Dragon-helm of Dor-lómin, thinking} that it might lift Túrin's thought again above his life in the wilderness as the leader of a petty company. NA-EX-34.2 <CoH ‘This is your own which I bring back to you,’ he said to Túrin as he took out the helm. ‘It was left in my keeping on the north-marches; but not forgotten, I think.’
‘Almost,’ said Túrin; ‘but it shall not be so again.NA-TI-15.5 <NA; Note 10 Then Algund, the old outlaw who had fled down Sirion from the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, said{ that Túrin}/: ‘Your/ eyes {had}/have/ long reminded {him}/me/ of another whom {he}/I/ could not recall, and{ that} mow {he}/I/ knew {him}/you/ for the son of Húrin. {“’}But he was a smaller man, small for his kin, though filled with fire; and his hair gold-red. You are dark, and tall. I see your mother in you, now that I look closer; she was of Bëor’s people. What fate was hers, I wonder.’
‘/I do not know,’ said Túrin. ‘No word comes out of the North.’> {; and}And he fell silent, looking far away with the eyes of his thought, until suddenly he caught the gleam of another thing that Beleg held in his hand. It was the gift of Melian; but the silver leaves were red in the firelight, and when Túrin saw the seal his eyes darkened. ‘What have you there?’ he said.
‘The greatest gift that one who loves you still has to give,’ answered Beleg. ‘Here is {lembas in•Elidh}[ lembas in•Elið], the waybread of the Eldar, that no man yet has tasted.’
‘The Helm of my fathers I take, with good will for your keeping,’ said Túrin, ‘but I will not receive gifts out of Doriath.’
‘Then send back your sword and your arms,’ said Beleg. ‘Send back also the teaching and fostering of your youth. And let your men, who (you say) have been faithful, die in the desert to please your mood! Nonetheless, this way-bread was a gift not to you but to me, and I may do with it as I will. Eat it not, if it sticks in your throat; but others here may be more hungry and less proud.’
Túrin’s eyes glinted, but as helocked in Beleg’s face the fire in them died, and they went grey, and he said in a voice hardly to be heard: ‘I wonder, friend, that you deign to come back to such a churl. From you I will take whatever you give, even rebuke. Henceforward you shall counsel me in all ways, save the road to Doriath only.’
The Land of Bow and Helm
In the days that followed Beleg> NA-EX-34.5 {But still Túrin would not return to Doriath; and Beleg yielding to his love against his wisdom remained with him, and did not depart /, but returned with the men to Bar-en-Danweð/, and in that time he} laboured much for the good of Túrin's company. ...
...
NA-EX-27.28 In CoH the chapter beginns diffrent. And we I have added in NA-EX-27.29 NA-EX-30 passages about the dwarves not used in CoH that we found necessary but added in a diffrent palce (NA-TI-11).
NA-EX-27.31 a small add but it brings more inside in Túrins thinking at that time.
up to NA-EX-27.77 I have nothing to comment. In NA-EX-27.77 I skipt the finding of the stair by Andróg. The placing in the story when it is really winter seems much beter to me.
NA-EX-28.5b I have slightly changed the position of this addition.
NA-EX-28.51 'only the hardiest dared stir abroad;' is not in CoH but I find it stilll usefull and Narn seems to alow it.
NA-EX-29 to NA-EX-33, NA-EX-34b and NA-TI-15.5 are also not in CoH but we took them from the appendix of the Narn because they add details to the story.

Another stop for the moment. Later more.
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Old 05-20-2007, 04:30 AM   #25
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... Those that were hurt or sick he tended, {and gave to them the lembas of Melian{;}>. NA-EX-35 <Ap Narn {It may be mentioned here that when}When Beleg brought out the lembas from his pack {(see The Silmarillion pp. 202, 204) Túrin refused it: The}the silver leaves were red in the firelight; and when Túrin saw the seal his eyes darkened. ‘What have you there?’ he said.
‘The greatest gift that one who loves you still has to give,’ answered Beleg. ‘Here is lembas, the waybread of the Eldar, that no Man yet has tasted.’
‘The Helm of my fathers I take,’ said Túrin, ‘with good will for your keeping; but I will not receive gifts out of Doriath.’
‘Then send back your sword and your arms,’ said Beleg. ‘Send back also the teaching and fostering of your youth. And let your men die in the desert to please your mood. Nonetheless, this way-bread was a gift not to you but to me, and I may do with it as I will. Eat it not, if it sticks in your throat; but others here may be more hungry and less proud.’
Then Túrin was abashed, and in that matter overcame his pride.> NA-TI-15.3 and they{And his men} were quickly healedNA-EX-35.1 <CoH . For in those days the Grey-elves were still a high people, possessing great power, and they were wise in the ways of life and of all living things; and>{, for} though {the Grey-elves}<CoH they> were less in {skill and knowledge}<CoH craft and lore> than the Exiles from Valinor{, in the ways of the life of Middle-earth} they had {a wisdom}<CoH many arts> beyond the reach of Men. {NA-EX-36 <Ap Narn Andróg was cured of this wound by Beleg, but it seems that his dislike and distrust of the Elf was not thereby mitigated; and Mîm's hatred of Beleg became all the fiercer, for he had thus {"}undone{"} his curse upon Andróg. ‘It will bite again,’ he said. It came into Mîm's mind that if he also ate the lembas of Melian he would renew his youth and grow strong again; and since he could not come at it by stealth he feigned sickness and begged it of his enemy. When Beleg refused it to him the seal was set upon Mîm's hatred, and all the more because of Túrin's love for the Elf.>} NA-TI-15.7 {And because}{Because Beleg}<CoH Moreover Beleg the Archer was great among the people of Doriath; he> was strong and enduring, <CoH and> far-sighted in mind as in eye, <CoH and at need he was valiant in battle, relying not only upon the swift arrows of his long bow, but also upon his great sword Anglachel.> {he}He came to be held in honour among the outlaws{; but the hatred of Mîm}<CoH And ever the more did hatred grow> for the Elf that had come into {Bar-en-Danwedh}[Bar-en-Danweð] {grew ever greater,} <CoH in the heart of Mîm, who hated all Elves, as has been told, and who looked with a jealous eye on the love that Túrin bore to Beleg.> {and}And he sat with Ibun his son in the deepest shadows of his house, speaking to none. But Túrin paid now little heed to the Dwarf{; and when}.<CoH
When> winter passed, and <CoH stirring came, and the> spring{ came, they}<CoH , the outlaws soon> had sterner work to do.><CoH Morgoth’s might was moved; and as the long fingers of a groping hand the forerunners of his armies probed the ways into Beleriand.>
NA-TI-16 <Sil77 Who knows now the counsels of Morgoth? Who can measure the reach of his thought, who had been Melkor, mighty among the Ainur of the Great Song, and sat now, a dark lord upon a dark throne in the North, weighing in his malice all the tidings that came to him, <CoH whether by spy or by traitor, seeing in the eyes of his mind and understanding> {and perceiving} more of the deeds and purposes of his enemies than even the wisest of them feared, save only Melian the Queen{?}. To her often the thought of Morgoth reached out, and there was foiled.>
NA-EX-36.1 <CoH In this year, therefore, he turned his malice towards the lands west of Sirion, where there was still power to oppose him. Gondolin still stood, but it was hidden. Doriath he knew, but could not enter yet. Further still lay Nargothrond, to which none of his servants had yet found the way, a name of fear to them; there the people of Finrod dwelt in hidden strength. And fare away from the South, beyond the white woods of the birches of Nimbrethil, from the coast of Arvernien and the mouths of Sirion, came rumour of the Havens of the Ships. Thither he could not reach until all else had fallen.

So now the Orcs came down out of the North in ever greater numbers.>NA-TI-17 <Sil77 {And now again the might of Angband was moved; and as the long fingers of a groping hand the forerunners of his armies probed the ways into Beleriand.} Through Anach they came, and Dimbar was taken, and all the north marches of Doriath. Down the ancient road they came that led through the long defile of Sirion, past the isle where Minas Tirith of Finrod had stood, and so through the land between Malduin and Sirion, and on through the eaves of Brethil to the Crossings of {Teiglin}[Taeglin]. Thence <CoH of old> the road {went}<CoH passed> on into the Guarded Plain{; but}<CoH , and then along the feet of the highlands watched over by {Amon Rûdh}[Amon Rûð], it ran down into the vale of Narog and came at last to Nargothrond. But> the Orcs did not go far upon it, as yet, for there dwelt now in the wild a terror that was hidden, and upon the red hill were watchful eyes of which they had not been warned.
{For}<CoH In that spring> Túrin put on again the Helm of Hador<CoH , and Beleg was glad. At first their company had less than fifty men, but the woodcraft of Beleg and the valour of Túrin made them seem to their enemies as a host. The scouts of the Orcs were hunted, their camps were espied, and if they gathered to march in force in some narrow place, out of the rocks of from the shadow of the trees there leaped the Dragon-helm and his men, tall and fierce. Soon at the very sound of his horn in the hills their captains would quail and the Orcs would turn to flight before any arrow whined or sword was drawn. NA-EX-37.2b <editorial bridge And the Lay tells about that time:
><Lay Thus war was waked __ in the woods once more
for the foes of Faërie, __ and its fame widely,
...
nor on robber-raids __ now rode they ever,
who fended from NA-EX-37.5{Faërie}[friends] __ the fiends of Hell. {660}15>
It has been told that when Mîm surrendered his hidden dwelling on {Amon Rûdh}[Amon Rûð] to Túrin and his company, he demanded that he who had loosed the arrow that slew his son should break his bow and his arrows and lay them at the feet of Khîm; and that man was Andróg. Then with great illwill Andróg did as Mîm bade. Moreover Mîm declared that Andróg must never again bear bow and arrow, and he laid a curse on him, that if nevertheless he should do so, then would he meet his own death by that means.
Now in the spring of that year Andróg defied the curse of Mîm and took up a bow again in a foray from {Bar-en-Danwedh}[Bar-en-Danweð]; and in that foray he was struck by a poisoned orc-arrow, and was brought back dying in pain. But Beleg healed him of his wound NA-EX-36b <Ap Narn {Andróg was cured of this wound by Beleg}, but {it seems that }his dislike and distrust of the Elf was not thereby mitigated>. And now the hatered that Mîm bore to Beleg was increased still more, for he had thus undone his curse; but ‘it will bite again,’ he said. It came into Mîm's mind that if he also ate the lembas of Melian he would renew his youth and grow strong again; and since he could not come at it by stealth he feigned sickness and begged it of his enemy. When Beleg refused it to him the seal was set upon Mîm's hatred, and all the more because of Túrin's love for the Elf.>

In that year>{; and} far and wide in Beleriand the whisper went, under wood and over stream and through the passes of the hills, saying that the Helm and Bow that had fallen in DimbarNA-EX-36.2 <CoH (as was thought)> had arisen again beyond hope. Then many <CoH , both Elves and Men,> who went leaderless, dispossessed but undaunted, <CoH , remnants of battle and defeat, and lands laid waste,> took heart again, and came to seek the Two Captains{. Dor-Cúarthol, the Land of Bow and Helm, was in that time named all the region between {Teiglin}[Taeglin] and the west march of Doriath; and Túrin named himself anew, Gorthol, the Dread Helm, and his heart was high again.}> NA-EX-36.3 <CoH , though where they had their stronghold none yet knew.> NA-EX-37 <Ap Narn Túrin received gladly all who came to him, but by the counsel of Beleg he admitted no newcomer to his refuge ... or in the southward fens, from Methed-en-glad (‘the End of the Wood’) NA-EX-37.1 <CoH south of the Crossing of {Teiglin}[Taeglin]> to Bar-erib some leagues south of {Amon Rûdh}[Amon Rûð]{; and from}<CoH in the once fertile land between Narog and the Meres of Sirion.> From all these places men could see the summit of {Amon Rûdh}[Amon Rûð], and by signals receive tidings and commands.> {NA-EX-37.2 <editorial bridge And the Lay tells about that time:
><Lay Thus war was waked __ in the woods once more
...
who fended from NA-EX-37.5{Faërie}[friends] __ the fiends of Hell. {660}15>
NA-EX-38 <Ap Narn {It is several times emphasized that }Beleg remained throughout opposed to Túrin's grand desig ...
...
... Here I desire only to gather strength. To my father's land in Dor-lómin my heart turns, and thither I shall go when I may.’>
}NA-EX-39 <Ap Narn In this way, before the summer had passed, the following of Túrin was swelled to a great force; and the power of Angband was thrown back. Word of this came even to Nargothrond, and many there grew restless, saying that if an Outlaw could do such hurt to the Enemy, what might not the Lord of Narog do. But OrodrethNA-EX-39.1 <CoH King of Nargothrond> would not change his counsel. ... should they have need (and in this, it is thought, he was moved by Thingol and Melian).> {NA-TI-18 <Sil77 {In Menegroth, and in the deep halls of Nargothrond, and} {even}Even in the hidden realm of Gondolin, the fame of the deeds of the Two Captains was heard; and in Angband also they were known. Then Morgoth laughed, for now by the Dragon-helm was Húrin's son revealed to him again; and ere long {Amon Rûdh}[Amon Rûð] was ringed with spies.>}
NA-EX-40 <Ap Narn {It is also asserted that Morgoth for a time}NA-EX-40.1 <CoH Then Morgoth> withheld his hand{ and made mere}<CoH ; though he made frequent> feints of attack, {"So}so that by easy victory the confidence of these rebels might become overweening{; as}<CoH . As> it proved indeed{."}> NA-EX-40.2 <CoH Fot Túrin now gave the name Dor-Cúarthol to all the land between {Teiglin}[Taiglin] and the west march of Doriath; and claiming the lordship of it he named himself anew, Gorthol, the Dread Helm; and his heart was high. But to Beleg it seemd now that the Helm had wrought otherwise with Túrin than he had hoped; and looking into the days to come he was troubled in mind.
One day as summer was wearing on he and Túrin were sitting in the Echad resting after a long affray and march. Túrin said to Beleg:‘Why are you sad, and thoughtful? ...
...
‘Nonetheless, I will be the captain of my own host,’ said Túrin; ‘and if I fall, then I fall. Here I stand in the path of Morgoth, and while I so stand he cannot use the southward road.{‘}> NA-EX-40.3 <Ap Narn For that in Nargothrond there should be some thanks; and even help with needful things.{’
In another brief passage of speech between them Túrin replied to Beleg's warnings of the frailty of his power in these words:
‘}I wish to rule a land; but not this land. Here I desire only to gather strength. To my father's land in Dor-lómin my heart turns, and thither I shall go when I may.’>

NA-EX-40.4 <CoH Report of the Dragon-helm in the land west of Sirion came swiftly to the ear of Morgoth, ...
...
[here follows a long extract from CoH telling of the treachery of Mîm]
...
... The Orc-captian thought that the fate of Beleg might well be left to Mîm; but as to letting Túrin go free, ‘alive to Angband’ were his orders. NA-TI-19a <Sil77 {In the waning of the year Mîm the Dwarf and Ibun his son went out from Bar-en-Danwedh to gather roots in the wild for their winter store; and they were taken captive by Orcs. Then for a second time Mîm promised to guide his enemies by the secret paths to his home on Amon Rûdh; but yet he sought to delay the fulfilment of his promise, and demanded that Gorthol should not be slain.} Then the Orc-captain laughed, and he said to Mîm: 'Assuredly Túrin son of Húrin shall not be slain.'
{Thus was Bar-en-Danwedh betrayed, for the Orcs came upon it by night at unawares, guided by Mîm. There many of Túrin's company were slain as they slept; but some fleeing by an inner stair came out upon the hill-top, and there they fought until they fell, and their blood flowed out upon the seregon that mantled the stone.}> While agreeing to the conditions he insisted that they keep Ibun as hostage; ...
...
[here follows the elaborate discription of the battle of Amon Ruð from CoH)
...
... Most valiant of these was Andróg, who fell NA-SL-02b {mortally }wounded{ by an arrow} at the head of the outside stair.
...
But Mîm and Beleg were not the only living beings on that stony height. Andróg, though himself wounded NA-SL-02.1 { to the death}, crawled among the dead bodies towards them, and seizing a sword he thrust it at the Dwarf. Shrieking in fear Mîm ran to the brink of the cliff and disappeared: he fled down a steep and difficult goat’s path that was known to him. NA-EX-41b {<Ap Narn It was only then that {he}[Andróg] revealed to Túrin the existence of the inner stair; and he was one of those who came by that way to the summit. There he is said to have fought more valiantly than any, NA-SL-02 but he fell at last{ mortally} wounded by an arrow{; and thus the curse of Mîm was fulfilled.}> NA-TI-20 <Sil77 But a net was cast over Túrin as he fought, and he was enmeshed in it, and overcome, and led away.
And at length when all was silent again Mîm crept out of the shadows of his house; and as the sun rose over the mists of Sirion he stood beside the dead men on the hill-top. But he perceived that not all those that lay there were dead; for by one his gaze was returned, and he looked in the eyes of Beleg the Elf. Then with hatred long-stored Mîm stepped up to Beleg, and drew forth the sword Anglachel that lay beneath the body of one that had fallen beside him; but Beleg stumbling up seized back the sword and thrust it at the Dwarf, and Mîm in terror fled wailing from the hill-top.} And Beleg cried after him: ‘The vengeance of the house of Hador will find you yet!’> But Andróg putting forth his last strength cut through the wristbands and fetters that bound Beleg, and so released him. NA-SL-02.2 {; but dying he said: ‘My hurts are too deep even for your healing.’}
The death of Beleg {NA-EX-42 <Lay Beleg>}
Beleg sought among the dead for Túrin, to bury him; but he could not discover his body. He knew then that Húrin’s son was still alive, and taken to Angband; but he remained perforce in {Bar-en-Danwedh}[Bar-en-Danweð] until his wounds were healed.> NA-TI-21b <Sil77 Now Beleg was sorely wounded, but he was mighty among the Elves of Middle-earth, and he was moreover a master of healing. Therefore he did not die, and slowly his strength returned; and {he sought in vain among the dead for Túrin, to bury him. But he found him not; and then he knew that Húrin's son was yet alive, and taken to Angband}. NA-EX-42.1 <Aelfwine & Dírhaval A And in this way also Andróg {who was in the outlaw-band of Túrin, and} alone[ of the outlaw-band of Túrin] survived the battle on the summit of {Amon Rûdh}[Amon Rûð].> Then with{With} little hope Beleg departed from {Amon Rûdh}[Amon Rûð] and set out northward, ...
...
Up to NA-EX-37.2b I remoulded our text based on CoH. In parts this might be hard to follow. Therefore I will give here an extract of clean text:
NA-EX-34.5 to NA-EX-35.1:
Quote:
Those that were hurt or sick he tended, and they were quickly healed. For in those days the Grey-elves were still a high people, possessing great power, and they were wise in the ways of life and of all living things; and though they were less in craft and lore than the Exiles from Valinor they had many arts beyond the reach of Men.
NA-EX-37.2b the postion were this part of the Lay is inserted is slightly changed.
NA-EX-37.2, NA-EX-37.5, NA-EX-38 and NA-TI-18: Mark that all this is skipt and brought in at diffrent positions following CoH.
NA-EX-40.3 This passages is not in CoH but it shows what kind of help Nargothrond granted.
NA-EX-40.4 From this point the material in [b}CoH[/b] much more elaborate than anything we had have before. It seems therefore best simply to take CoH as the basis text to be edited. (Sorry for all those that have no access to the text for not giving it here in full.)
NA-TI-19a Here I used the tricky uternace of the Orc captian about not slaying Túrin. But I have some doubts if this can be done.
NA-SL-02b and NA-SL-02.1 Following the intor we used Andróg can not be "mortally" wounded.
NA-EX-41b, NA-SL-02 and NA-TI-20: Most of skipt, because it is told much fuller in CoH. I just used the cry of Beleg about the vengenace of the house of Hador.
NA-SL-02.2: Again Andróg can not be dead at the end of the battle.
NA-EX-42 Okay from here we would start in the next therad normaly, but I think it is better to give the insertion from CoH fully here and discuss also here the further details of Belegs and Andrógs survival.
NA-TI-21b this is slightly changed because we have just told about his search for Túrin's body about the slain.
NA-EX-42.1 I found this the best opportunity to give the information about Andróg survival. The question why then Beleg goes on the serach for Túrin alone I will discuss in the next part of our Narn editing were I found a nice way to address it inside the text without editorial text.

Now I have posted the most tangeld part, in which CoH brought about the greatest amount of changes. All I did is of course open for discussion, so please feel free to disagree with me.

Respectfully
Findegil

Last edited by Findegil; 09-24-2008 at 07:45 AM.
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Old 05-20-2007, 05:25 AM   #26
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Just an after thought: Seeing that we have now Andróg two times heald from deadly wounds of arrows by Beleg this seems a bit strange. If I were completlly free to deal with the text my edditng would run in this line:
- Andróg would curse Mîm to dy with an arrow in his throath.
- Andróg would only be wounded at the battle of Amon Ruð, and then heald by Beleg.
- Andróg would be a member of Húrins band when he comes to Nargothrond:
Quote:
...
§276 (§4d) TT Then {Úrin}[Húrin] wavered, but his men were wroth at that, so that he bid them seize it all, and Mîm stood by and watched, and he broke forth into terrible and evil curses.
§277 (§5) TT Thereat did {Úrin}[Húrin] smite him, saying: ‘We came but to take what was not thine - now for thy evil words we will take what is thine as well, even thy life.{'}> RD-EX-11.5 <Sil77 And{and} not unknown is it to me by whom the Dragon-helm of Dor-lómin was betrayed.'>
§278 (§6) <TT But Mîm dying said unto {Úrin}[Húrin]: ‘Now Elves and Men shall rue this deed, and because of the death of Mîm the dwarf shall death follow this gold so long as it remain on Earth, and a like fate shall every part and portion share with the whole.’ And {Úrin}[Húrin] shuddered, but his folk laughed{.}>RD-EX-11.51<editorial bridge and one among them was Andróg. And Mîm reconising him saw that Beleg><Ap Narn had thus {"}undone{"} his curse upon Andróg. ‘It will bite again,’ he said.><editorial bridge But it is sung that
><Lay of the Children of Húrin {The}the dawn over {Doriath}[Narog] __ dimly kindled {695}
saw {Blodrin Bor's son}[Mîm the petty-dwarf] __ by a beech standing
with throat thriléd __ by a thrusting arrow,
whose shaven shaft, __ shod with {poison}[iron],
and feather-wingéd, __ was fast in the tree. [5]
He bargained the blood __ of {his brothers}Túrin's band for gold: {700}
this his meed meted - __ in the mirk at {random}[Narog]
by {an orc-}[Andróg's ]arrow __ his {oath}[curse] came home.>
§279 (§8) RD-SL-05 {And the curse came upon the possessors in this wise. Each one of Húrin's company died or was slain in quarrels upon the road; but Húrin went unto Thingol and sought his aid, and the folk of Thingol bore the treasure to the Thousand Caves.}<TT Now {Úrin}[Húrin] caused his followers to bear this gold to the halls of {Tinwelint}[Thingol], ...
But we are not free to use the text and the ideas in it as free as that I deem.

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Old 05-27-2007, 03:56 AM   #27
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Interisting enough I found something, to support my idea of Andróg being a member of Húrins Band at Nargothrond. We used it already at the begining of the Narn:
Quote:
NA-TI-01b <Aelfwine & Dírhaval A Here begins that tale which {Ælfwine}[was] made from the {Húrinien}[Narn i Chîn Húrin]: ... From Mablung he learned much; and by fortune also he found a man named Andvír, and he was very old, but was the son of that Andróg who was in the outlaw-band of Túrin, and alone survived the battle on the summit of {Amon Rûdh}[Amon Rûð]. Otherwise all that time between the flight of Túrin from Doriath and his coming to Nargothrond, and Túrin's deeds in those days, would have remained hidden, save the little that was remembered among the people of Nargothrond concerning such matters as Gwindor or Túrin ever revealed. In this way also the matter of Mîm and his later dealings with Húrin were made clear. This lay was all that {Dírhavel}[Dírhaval] ever made, ...
Doesn't "In this way also the matter of Mîm and his later dealings with Húrin were made clear." in this context imply that Andróg witnessed these events as well? So may be we should skip the first healing of Andróg by Beleg and take only the wound recived on the summit of Amon Ruð, and use the note that the curse should bit agian in the meting of Húrin and his band including Andróg with Mîm at Nargothrond.

As yet this has only be a futtile idea, but since it finds now some support from inside Tolkiens on writings I like to concret the ideas of editing a bit more:
Quote:
Then Mîm rose, and looked long at Túrin. ‘I hear you,’ he said. ‘You speak like a Dwarf-lord of old; and at that I marvel. Now my heart is cooled, though it is not glad. My own ransom I will pay, therefore: you may dwell here, if you will. But this I will add: he that loosed the shaft shall break his bow and his arrows and lay them at my son's feet; and he shall never take arrow nor bear bow again. If he does, he shall die by it. That curse I lay on him.’
Andróg was afraid when he heard of this curse; and though he did so with great grudge, he broke his bow and his arrows and laid them at the dead Dwarf's feet. But as he came out from the chamber, he glanced evilly at Mîm, and muttered: ‘The curse of a Dwarf never dies, they say; but a Man's too may come home. NA-TI-09b May he die with a dart in his throat!{<NA; note 18 May he lack a bow at need ere his end.>}’{18}
...
Then Túrin was abashed, and in that matter overcame his pride.> NA-TI-15.3 and they{And his men} were quickly healed NA-EX-35.1 <CoH . For in those days the Grey-elves were still a high people, possessing great power, and they were wise in the ways of life and of all living things; and>{, for} though {the Grey-elves}<CoH they> were less in {skill and knowledge}<CoH craft and lore> than the Exiles from Valinor{, in the ways of the life of Middle-earth} they had {a wisdom}<CoH many arts> beyond the reach of Men. NA-EX-36d <Ap Narn {Andróg was cured of this wound by Beleg, but it seems that his dislike and distrust of the Elf was not thereby mitigated; and Mîm's hatred of Beleg became all the fiercer, for he had thus {"}undone{"} his curse upon Andróg. ‘It will bite again,’ he said. }It came into Mîm's mind that if he also ate the lembas of Melian he would renew his youth and grow strong again; and since he could not come at it by stealth he feigned sickness and begged it of his enemy. When Beleg refused it to him the seal was set upon Mîm's hatred, and all the more because of Túrin's love for the Elf.

> NA-TI-15.7 {And because}{Because Beleg}<CoH Moreover Beleg the Archer was great among the people of Doriath; he> was strong and enduring,<CoH and> far-sighted in mind as in eye, <CoH and at need he was valiant in battle, relying not only upon the swift arrows of his long bow, but also upon his great sword Anglachel.> {he}He came to be held in honour among the outlaws{; but the hatred of Mîm}<CoH And ever the more did hatred grow> for the Elf that had come into {Bar-en-Danwedh}[Bar-en-Danweð] {grew ever greater,} <CoH in the heart of Mîm, who hated all Elves, as has been told, and who looked with a jealous eye on the love that Túrin bore to Beleg.> {and}And he sat with Ibun his son in the deepest shadows of his house, speaking to none. But Túrin paid now little heed to the Dwarf{; and when}.
...
It has been told that when Mîm surrendered his hidden dwelling on {Amon Rûdh}[Amon Rûð] to Túrin and his company, he demanded that he who had loosed the arrow that slew his son should break his bow and his arrows and lay them at the feet of Khîm; and that man was Andróg. Then with great illwill Andróg did as Mîm bade. Moreover Mîm declared that Andróg must never again bear bow and arrow, and he laid a curse on him, that if nevertheless he should do so, then would he meet his own death by that means.
Now in the spring of that year Andróg defied the curse of Mîm and took up a bow again in a foray from {Bar-en-Danwedh}[Bar-en-Danweð] NA-EX-36c .{; and in that foray he was struck by a poisoned orc-arrow, and was brought back dying in pain. But Beleg healed him of his wound NA-EX-36b <Ap Narn {Andróg was cured of this wound by Beleg}, but {it seems that }his dislike and distrust of the Elf was not thereby mitigated>. And now the hatered that Mîm bore to Beleg was increased still more, for he had thus undone his curse; but ‘it will bite again,’ he said. It came into Mîm's mind that if he also ate the lembas of Melian he would renew his youth and grow strong again; and since he could not come at it by stealth he feigned sickness and begged it of his enemy. When Beleg refused it to him the seal was set upon Mîm's hatred, and all the more because of Túrin's love for the Elf.>}
...
Túrin and Beleg retreated into the cave, and rolled a great stone across the passage. In these straits Andróg revealed to them the hidden stair leading to the flat summit of {Amon Rûdh}[Amon Rûð] which he had found when lost in the caves, as has been told. Then Túrin and Beleg with many of their men went up by this stair and came out on the summit, surprising those few Orcs who had already come there by the outer path, and driving them over the edge. For a little while they held off the Orcs climbing up the rock, but they had no shelter on the bare summit, and many were shot from below. Most valiant of these was Andróg, who fell NA-SL-02c mortally wounded by an arrow at the head of the outside stair.
Then Túrin and Beleg with the ten men left to them drew back to the center of the summit, where was a standing stone, and making a ring about it they defended themselves until all were slain save Beleg and Túrin, for over them the orcs cast nets. Túrin was bound and carried off; Beleg who was wounded was bound likewise, but he was laid on the ground with wrists and ankles tied to iron pins driven in to the rock.
Now the Orcs, finding the issue of the secret stair, left the summit and entered {Bar-en-Danwedh}[Bar-en-Danweð], which they defiled and ravaged. They did not find Mîm, luking in his caves, and when they had departed from {Amon Rûdh}[Amon Rûð] Mîm appeared on the summit, and going to where Beleg lay prostrate and unmoving he gloated over him while he sharpend a knife.
But Mîm and Beleg were not the only living beings on that stony height. Andróg, though himself wounded NA-SL-02.1 to the death, crawled among the dead bodies towards them, and seizing a sword he thrust it at the Dwarf. Shrieking in fear Mîm ran to the brink of the cliff and disappeared: he fled down a steep and difficult goat’s path that was known to him. NA-EX-41b {<Ap Narn It was only then that {he}[Andróg] revealed to Túrin the existence of the inner stair; and he was one of those who came by that way to the summit. There he is said to have fought more valiantly than any, NA-SL-02 but he fell at last{ mortally} wounded {by an arrow; and thus the curse of Mîm was fulfilled.}> NA-TI-20 <Sil77 But a net was cast over Túrin as he fought, and he was enmeshed in it, and overcome, and led away.
And at length when all was silent again Mîm crept out of the shadows of his house; and as the sun rose over the mists of Sirion he stood beside the dead men on the hill-top. But he perceived that not all those that lay there were dead; for by one his gaze was returned, and he looked in the eyes of Beleg the Elf. Then with hatred long-stored Mîm stepped up to Beleg, and drew forth the sword Anglachel that lay beneath the body of one that had fallen beside him; but Beleg stumbling up seized back the sword and thrust it at the Dwarf, and Mîm in terror fled wailing from the hill-top.} And Beleg cried after him: ‘The vengeance of the house of Hador will find you yet!’> But Andróg putting forth his last strength cut through the wristbands and fetters that bound Beleg, and so released him NA-SL-02.2b {.}; but{ dying} he said: ‘My hurts are too deep even for your healing.’
The death of Beleg {NA-EX-42 <Lay Beleg>}
Beleg sought among the dead for Túrin, to bury him; but he could not discover his body. He knew then that Húrin’s son was still alive, and taken to Angband; but he remained perforce in {Bar-en-Danwedh}[Bar-en-Danweð] until his wounds were healed.> NA-TI-21b <Sil77 Now Beleg was sorely wounded, but he was mighty among the Elves of Middle-earth, and he was moreover a master of healing. Therefore he did not die, and slowly his strength returned; and {he sought in vain among the dead for Túrin, to bury him. But he found him not; and then he knew that Húrin's son was yet alive, and taken to Angband}. NA-EX-42.1b <Aelfwine & Dírhaval A And in this way also Andróg {who was in the outlaw-band of Túrin, and} alone[ of the outlaw-band of Túrin] survived the battle on the summit of {Amon Rûdh}[Amon Rûð],><CoH he was brought back dying in pain to Bar-enm-Danweð. But Beleg healed him of his wound NA-EX-36b <Ap Narn {Andróg was cured of this wound by Beleg}, but it seems that his dislike and distrust of the Elf was not thereby mitigated>. Then with{With} little hope Beleg departed from {Amon Rûdh}[Amon Rûð] and set out northward, towards the Crossings of {Teiglin}[Taeglin]{, following in the track of the Orcs; and he crossed over the Brithiach and journeyed through Dimbar towards the Pass of Anach. And now he was not far behind them, for he went without sleeping, whereas they had tarried on their road, hunting in the lands and fearing no pursuit as they came northward; and not even in the dreadful woods of Taur-nu-Fuin did he swerve from the trail, for the skill of Beleg was greater than any that have been in Middle-earth}.>NA-EX-43b <editorial bridge And of this in the Narn it is told:
><Lay NA-EX-44{he}He fared to the forest{. __ No}; __ no fellows sought he {735}
in his hopeless hazard, __ but in haste alone
he followed the feet __ of the foes of Elfland,
the dread daring, __ and the dire anguish,
that held the hearts __ of Hithlum's men 5
and Doriath's doughtiest __ in a dream of fear. {740}
...
...
...
RD-EX-02.5 <WH, Note 57 Húrin in Nargothrond>
§269 (§1d) RD-EX-02.7 <WH, Note 54, Text 2 But now Húrin {seems}seemed to pick up strength and youth - vengeance {seems}seemed to have heartened him, and he {[ ] and walks}walked now strongly. They {pass}passed into the woods <RD-EX-03 editorial addition to make a the term wood-men understandable south of Taeglin> and {gather}gathered the last fugitives of the wood-men (the kin of the folk of Brethil).>RD-EX-0.5 <TT; Note 33 {Now therefore he gathered to him a band of wild men, and they were waxen a fiercy and lawless folk that dwelt not with their kin, who thrust them into the hills to live or die as they might.}<taken from Lay of the Children of Húrin {till outcast folk
there}There also one by one,{ __ wild and reckless
}around him railed; /outcast folk, wild and reckless;/><taken from Sill77 such houseless and desperate man as could be found in those evil days lurking in the wild; and><[b]editorial addtion based on Aelfwine & Dírhaval A; taken from Narn[B] {The}the grimmest among them was {one named }Andróg,><Aelfwine & Dírhaval A who was in the outlaw-band of Túrin.>
§270 (§1e) RD-EX-04 <WH, Note 54, Text 1 {Asgorn}[Asgon] they {choose}chose for captain, but he {treats}treated Húrin as lord, and {does}did as he {will}willed. ...
...
Follwed by the scene of Mîm's death as in the last posting up to the point were Mîm uttered his 'it will bit again'. The rest of the passages in my last post is probably to freely interpreted to be useable in this project.

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Old 09-24-2008, 10:32 AM   #28
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Reading the parts of Andróg as member of Húrins band again I find myself moved to edit parts of it again:
Quote:
...
But Mîm and Beleg were not the only living beings on that stony height. Andróg, though himself wounded NA-SL-02.1 to the death, crawled among the dead bodies towards them, and seizing a sword he thrust it at the Dwarf. Shrieking in fear Mîm ran to the brink of the cliff and disappeared: he fled down a steep and difficult goat’s path that was known to him. NA-EX-41b {<Sil77 And Beleg cried after him: ‘The vengeance of the house of Hador will find you yet!’> But Andróg putting forth his last strength cut through the wristbands and fetters that bound Beleg, and so released him; but NA-SL-02.2b { dying} he said: ‘My hurts are too deep even for your healing.’
The death of Beleg {NA-EX-42 <Lay Beleg>}
Beleg sought among the dead for Túrin, to bury him; but he could not discover his body. He knew then that Húrin’s son was still alive, and taken to AngbandNA-EX-41.15{;}. <Sil77 Now Beleg was sorely wounded, but he was mighty among the Elves of Middle-earth, and he was moreover a master of healing. Therefore he did not die, and slowly his strength returned; but he remained perforce in {Bar-en-Danwedh}[Bar-en-Danweð] until his wounds were healed.> NA-EX-42.1b <Aelfwine & Dírhaval A And in this way also Andróg {who was in the outlaw-band of Túrin, and} alone[ of the outlaw-band of Túrin] survived the battle on the summit of Amon Rûdh.> <CoH {he}He was brought back dying in pain to Bar-en-Danweð. But Beleg healed him of his wound NA-EX-36b <Ap Narn {Andróg was cured of this wound by Beleg}, but it seems that his dislike and distrust of the Elf was not thereby mitigated;>NA-EX-43c <editorial bridge since it is sung about Beleg in the Narn:

><Lay NA-EX-44b{he}He fared to the forest{. __ No}; __ no fellows sought he {735}
in his hopeless hazard, __ but in haste alone
he followed the feet __ of the foes of Elfland,
the dread daring, __ and the dire anguish,
that held the hearts __ of Hithlum's men 5
and Doriath's doughtiest __ in a dream of fear. {740}
Unmatched among Men, __ or magic-wielding
Elves, or hunters __ of the Orc-kindred,
or beasts of prey __ for blood pining,
was his craft and cunning, __ that cold and dead 10
an unseen slot __ could scent o'er stone, {745}
foot-prints could find __ on forest pathways
that lightly on the leaves __ were laid in moons
long waned, and washed __ by windy rains.
The grim Glamhoth's __ goblin armies 15
go cunning-footed, __ but his craft failed not {750}
to tread their trail, __ till the lands were darkened,
and the light was lost __ in lands unknown.>

With little hope Beleg departed from Amon Rûdh and set out northward, towards the Crossings of {Teiglin}[Taeglin]{, following in the track of the Orcs; and he crossed over the Brithiach and journeyed through Dimbar towards the Pass of Anach.} And now he was not far behind them, for he went without sleeping, whereas they had tarried on their road, hunting in the lands and fearing no pursuit as they came northward{; and not even in the dreadful woods of Taur-nu-Fuin did he swerve from the trail, for the skill of Beleg was greater than any that have been in Middle-earth}.
NA-EX-44.1 <CoH He{ set out then with little hope to try to find the trail of the Orcs, and he} came upon their tracks near the Crossing of {Teiglin}[Taeglin]. There they divided, some passing along the eaves of the Forest of Brethil towards the Ford of Brithiach, while others turned away westwards; and it seemed plain to Beleg that he must follow those that went direct with greatest speed to Angband, making for the Pass of Anach. Therefore he journeyed on through Dimbar, and up to the Pass of Anach in Ered Gorgoroth, the Mountains of Terror, and so to the highlands of Taur-nu-Fuin, the Forest under Night, a region of dread and dark enchantment, of wandering and despair{.} NA-EX-44.2 <editorial bridge , of which in the Lay it is told:
...
...
...
§267 (§1a) RD-EX-01 <WH Now it is said that those who {…}/sided/ with Hardang were not all caught, and others came in hearing the news, and there was fighting in the Obel, and a great burning, until all was well nigh destroyed. But when the {madness [written above: }wrath{]} of men had cooled they made peace, and some said: 'What hath bewitched us? Surely Húrin begot all this evil, and Hardang and {Avranc}[Daruin] were more wise. They would have kept him out if they could.' So they chose {Avranc}[Daruin] to be their chief, since none of the House of Haleth were left, but {[?? }he wielded no{]} such authority and reverence as the Chieftains before, and the Folk of Brethil fell back again to be more like their kinsmen in the {[?}open{]} woods - each minding his own houselands and little {...}[clearings] and their {...}[confederation] was loosened.>
§268 (§1b) {Húrin gathered therefore a few outlaws of the woods unto him, and they came to Nargothrond, which as yet none, Orc, Elf, or Man, had dared to plunder, for dread of the spirit of Glomund and his very memory.} RD-SL-01 <Conclusion of the second draft Manuscript WH; Note 54 But some misliked this and would not serve under {Avranc}[Daruin] and made ready to depart, <WH Note 54 Isolated page end and others there were who {despair}despaired now of defending Brethil from the growing strength of Morgoth and {wish}wished to fly south> and they joined Húrin.> RD-EX-02.7b <WH, Note 54, Text 2 But now Húrin {seems}seemed to pick up strength and youth - vengeance {seems}seemed to have heartened him, and he {[ ] and walks}walked now strongly. They {pass}passed into the woods and {gather}gathered the last fugitives of the wood-men (the kin of the folk of Brethil).> [b]RD-EX-03.1b[b] <WH, Note 54, Text 2 A few men fearing the end of Brethil and desiring to flee further from Morgoth - having no homes or lands of their own - {are}were willing to go with Hurin.>
§269 (§1d) RD-EX-02 <WH, Note 54, Text 2 At the Taeglin crossing they {fall}fell in with Asgon, who {has}had heard rumour of the wild deeds in Brethil, and of Húrin's coming, and {are}was now venturing back into the land to seek him. Asgon {greets}greeted him - and {is}was glad that {Harathor}[Hardang] {has}had been punished. And he was angered {Angered} that no one had told Húrin of their coming.>
§270 (§1e) RD-EX-04 <WH, Note 54, Text 1 {Asgorn}[Asgon] they {choose}chose for captain, but he {treats}treated Húrin as lord, and {does}did as he {will}willed. /And he asked therefore Húrin:/ ‘Whither shall we go? {They}/We/ must {[? }know{]} a place of refuge.’ /And/ Húrin {elects}elected to go to Nargothrond.>

RD-EX-02.5b <WH, Note 57 Húrin in Nargothrond>

§271 (§1f) RD-EX-05 <WH, Year 501 of The Grey Annals Of the wanderings of Húrin[ and his men] there is no tale told, until {he}they came at last late in {this}[the] year to Nargothrond. It is said that he had then gathered to him other fugitives and masterless men in the wild, RD-EX-05.3{and}<TT; Note 33 {Now therefore he gathered to him a band of wild men, and} they were waxen a fiercy and lawless folk that dwelt not with their kin, who thrust them into the hills to live or die as they might.><editorial addtion based on Aelfwine & Dírhaval A; taken from Narn The grimmest among them was {one named }Andróg,><Aelfwine & Dírhaval A who {was}had been in the outlaw-band of Túrin.> Thus Húrin came south with a following of a hundred or more. But why it was that he went to Nargothrond is uncertain, save that so his doom and the fate of the Jewels led him. ...
...
§277 (§5) TT Thereat did {Úrin}[Húrin] smite him, saying: ‘We came but to take what was not thine - now for thy evil words we will take what is thine as well, even thy life.{'}> RD-EX-11.5 <Sil77 And{and} not unknown is it to me by whom the Dragon-helm of Dor-lómin was betrayed.'>
§278 (§6) <TT But Mîm dying said unto {Úrin}[Húrin]: ‘Now Elves and Men shall rue this deed, and because of the death of Mîm the dwarf shall death follow this gold so long as it remain on Earth, and a like fate shall every part and portion share with the whole.’ And {Úrin}[Húrin] shuddered, but his folk laughed.> RD-EX-11.51<editorial bridge and one among them was Andróg. And Mîm reconising him saw that Beleg><Ap Narn had thus {"}undone{"} his curse upon Andróg. ‘It will bite again,’ he said.><editorial bridge But it is sung that

><Lay of the Children of Húrin {The}the dawn over {Doriath}[Narog] __ dimly kindled {695}
saw {Blodrin Bor's son}[Mîm the petty-dwarf] __ by a beech standing
with throat thriléd __ by a thrusting arrow,
whose shaven shaft, __ shod with {poison}[iron],
and feather-wingéd, __ was fast in the tree. [5]
He bargained the blood __ of {his brothers}Túrin's band for gold: {700}
this his meed meted - __ in the mirk at {random}[Narog];
by {an orc-}[Andróg's ]arrow __ his {oath}[curse] came home.>
...
I will comment on some points tomorrow since I have to run now.

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Old 09-25-2008, 08:42 AM   #29
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Wow, it been a long time since I posted in the project. I need to ask a question first with the generalities of the text.
Since the new Children of Húrin, our base text for the story of Túrin are the Narn found in Unfinished Tales and what we have in the Published Silmarillion.
Now that we have a new Narn, besides the small differences from the previous sources does it affects our base text.
For example, if we have the same two parragraphs from both the Sil77 and the newNarn, should we present it belonging to which one?

Ok, now to begin
About NA-TI-02b.
Quote:
NA-TI-02b <CoH But now the tale returns to Húrin and Huor in the days of their youth. It is said that for a while the sons of Galdor dwelt in Brethil as foster-sons of Haldir their uncle, according to the custom of Men in that time. They often went to battle with the Men of Brethil against the Orcs, who now harried the northern borders of their land; for Húrin, though only seventeen years of age, was strong, and Huor the younger was already as tall as most full-grown men of that people.
On a time Húrin and Huor went with a company of scouts, but they were ambushed by the Orcs and scattered, and the brother were pursued to the ford of Brithiach.
The original text from the Gray Annals
Quote:
§161 It is said that at this time Húrin and Huor, the sons of Galion were dwelling with Haleth [added later: their kinsman] as fostersons (as the custom then was among northern Men); and they went both to battle with the Orcs, even Huor, for he would not be restrained, though he was but thirteen years in age. And being with a company that was cut off from the rest, they were pursued to the ford of Brithiach;
Posted by Findegil
Quote:
This is the intro to the yourney to Gondolin. It is changed in sofar as the battle with the Orcs is not a speacial one which in my view is disearable. I changed the complet text of teh Gondolin episode to CoH since it is easier in the text composition without changing anythink substantially from out composit text from Sil77 and GA.
I may miss something, but why is that battle with the Orcs not desirable?
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Old 09-26-2008, 02:15 AM   #30
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Basis text: If we would start from scratch right now we would for sure take CoH as our basis for the editing process. But as it is we have already done a lot with the Narn of the Unfinished Tales as basic text. Therefore what I did so fare was editing our text by introducing all diffrences I observed to CoH. This leads often to very confusing editings. If we have agreed of how the text should read in the end, I will undertake the task of 'cleaning' the editing. That means I will probably change the basic text and skip all preliminary editing. But for the moment I found it necessary to dokument how we had come to the text as it was before CoH.

Only in one point the are the text from Unfinished Tales and GA more reliable then the text from CoH and that is the use of the old personal pronome 'thou'.

Na-TI-02b:
My appologies for not been as clear as needed.
In CoH the battle in which Húrin and Hour are driven ofer the Brithiach is not a specific one but one of a series of skirmishs at the nothern border of Brethil.
In GA (and following this source in Sil77) it is a specially mentioned battle that came to pass after the capture of Tol Sirion by Sauron because the Orcs drove into Beleriand.

The question is which source we follow. Or to be more specific do we mention the graeter geo-politic meaning of the fights.

CoH has the higher priority as a source text, but GA provides more information. I scipt the text of GA and toke CoH instaed, but that could be discussed.
I did incooperat the information about that battle from GA into the chapter Of the Ruin of Beleriand (which is not jet here in the forum) and found it textually difficult to repeat it here or to back-reference the reader. Therefore the solution in CoH to make the fight in which Húrin and Huor are lost unspecific worked very good for me.

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Old 09-26-2008, 03:14 AM   #31
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So now some comments about the changes I introduced in posting #28:

NA-SL-02.1 Can we say ‘wounded to the death’ if the object of that phrase does in the event not died?

NA-EX-41b I just cleaned the editing.

NA-EX-41.15 Here I mixed the texts a bit more to make it more fluent.

NA-EX-42.1b, NA-EX-36b & NA-EX44bThis gives a good reason for Andróg survival. The editing is of course fetching text from here and there, but due to my approach by taking up Andróg survival from Aelfwine & Dírhaval A we have to simplify the matter by deleting the other arrow-wound received during the foray in spring. Thus what was said at this point can be used here if it fits the scene as it does in my opinion. Especially the continued dislike and distrust comes in handy since it explains why Beleg hunted alone for the Orcs that had captured Túrin. That is also the reason why I put the part of the Lay at this position.
In addition I re-entered the passage were we are told that the Orcs did tarried and hunted on the road while Beleg did not sleep. It makes Belegs catching up much more probable.

RD-EX-02.7b RD-EX-03.1b This change follows the discussion about the Woodmen. The conclusion was that most probably the Woodmen had all fled to Brethil but were there not fully integrated fugitives that had no land of their own.

RD-EX-02.5b I changed the position of the sub-chapter heading slightly. Now the heading is followed by a more narrated part before it changes back to direct speech when we arrive at Nargothrond. That seemed to me very fitting for the start of a sub-chapter.

RD-EX-05.3 Here do I introduce the gathering of outlaws from the old sources, to get a good opportunity for Andróg to come into Húrins followers.

RD-EX-11.51 At least we come to the reason we have for all this changes. We have Andróg now here in the Band of Húrin and he is so much angered by Mîm’s ‘It will bite again’ that he makes his own curse true by shooting the dying dwarf through his throat.
It is now my opinion that this scene of the betrayer of Túrin’s Band killed with an arrow in his throat, was a lasting image in Tolkiens mind. It came up first in the Lay were it was Ban, Bors son, who broke the tryst and was killed then by an random flying shaft. Then Tolkien developed the story of Túrin further by introducing Mîm who had beforehand only been the warden of the Dragon hoard. But the image of the death of traitor survived since it is foretold by the curse of Andróg.
Since Tolkien never touched the death of Mîm again after the Lost Tales we have Andrógs curse as the source text with highest priority. But of course curses must not always become true (even so they do very oft in Middle-Earth) and we have two competing versions of the curse.
Now since we have established Andróg as the communicator of the story of Túrins years between his flight from Doritah and the battle of Amon Rudh and, as I believe, about the ‘further dealings of Húrin and Mîm’, we should also take up that image of the traitor of Túrin (now Mîm) dying with a shaft in his throat. Since the Lay is the only source for it, that is in my view what we have to take.

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Old 03-01-2009, 12:40 PM   #32
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With the sincerest apologies for my long absence, I offer some comments on the proposed changes. Overall, I think you've done a very nice job of integrating the new information from CoH.

Quote:
NA-TI-02b <CoH But now the tale returns to Húrin and Huor in the days of their youth. It is said that for a while the sons of Galdor dwelt in Brethil as foster-sons of Haldir their uncle, according to the custom of Men in that time. They often went to battle with the Men of Brethil against the Orcs, who now harried the northern borders of their land; for Húrin, though only seventeen years of age, was strong, and Huor the younger was already as tall as most full-grown men of that people.
On a time Húrin and Huor went with a company of scouts, but they were ambushed by the Orcs and scattered, and the brother were pursued to the ford of Brithiach. There ...
First of all, I must ask you to refresh my memory about something - have we decided to include Hurin's and Huor's sojourn in Gondolin in the 'Childhood of Turin' chapter rather than the 'Ruin of Beleriand' chapter? Apparently we are, but I can't find where we discussed it.

I take it, though, that we decided to keep the account of the Orc attack on Brethil, when Beleg comes to their aid (s. 160 in GA) in the 'Ruin of Beleriand' chapter, thus separating it from the account of Hurin and Huor (is that right?). I now wonder whether this is advisable. Of course, this is done in the 'Narn', but that is in the context of a stand-alone tale, not a chapter in a longer Silmarillion.

The impression I get from the texts, at any rate, is that the attack in which Hurin and Huor were lost always remained identified with the attack GA section 160 - in other words that it remained this 'special' battle with the Orcs - and that the more generalized reference in CoH is made simply to compress this early portion of the work.

NA-EX-25.02: I'm very hesitant to use the alliterative lay here (and subsequently), though I appreciate that you have done a lot of nice work with the verse. This is, after all, one of the relatively few places where we have a late, complete 'long version' by Tolkien, and in such cases I think that generally the policy should be (and has been) not to insert earlier material for the sole purpose of elaboration.
Quote:
It remains only to mention that in CoH also the paragraph marked here as NA-EX-27.25 is omited. It seems that this paragraph in Sil77 was composed by Christopher Tolkien as an appropirate answer to Thingols question 'What more would Túrin have me do?' For me tha passage look a bit strange without that answer. Do you agree to add this paragraph even so we know now nearly for sure that it is composed by Christopher Tolkien?
Reading the text in CoH, I actually think it works fine without NA-EX-27.25.

Quote:
NA-TI-15.7 {And because}{Because Beleg}<CoH Moreover Beleg the Archer was great among the people of Doriath; he> was strong and enduring, <CoH and> far-sighted in mind as in eye, <CoH and at need he was valiant in battle, relying not only upon the swift arrows of his long bow, but also upon his great sword Anglachel.> {he}He came to be held in honour among the outlaws{; but the hatred of Mîm}<CoH And ever the more did hatred grow> for the Elf that had come into {Bar-en-Danwedh}[Bar-en-Danweð] {grew ever greater,} <CoH in the heart of Mîm, who hated all Elves, as has been told, and who looked with a jealous eye on the love that Túrin bore to Beleg.> {and}And he sat with Ibun his son in the deepest shadows of his house, speaking to none.
I can't find a source for 'He came to be held in honour among the outlaws' other than QS77 - is this perhaps an editorial addition by CT? I think we must either remove it or reword things slightly:

Quote:
NA-TI-15.7 {And because}{Because Beleg}<CoH Moreover Beleg the Archer was great among the people of Doriath; he> was strong and enduring, <CoH and> far-sighted in mind as in eye, <CoH and at need he was valiant in battle, relying not only upon the swift arrows of his long bow, but also upon his great sword Anglachel.> , and he came to be held in honour among the outlaws{; but the hatred of Mîm}<CoH {And} But ever the more did hatred grow> for the Elf that had come into {Bar-en-Danwedh}[Bar-en-Danweð] {grew ever greater,} <CoH in the heart of Mîm, who hated all Elves, as has been told, and who looked with a jealous eye on the love that Túrin bore to Beleg.> {and}And he sat with Ibun his son in the deepest shadows of his house, speaking to none.
Quote:
NA-TI-16 <Sil77 Who knows now the counsels of Morgoth? Who can measure the reach of his thought, who had been Melkor, mighty among the Ainur of the Great Song, and sat now, a dark lord upon a dark throne in the North, weighing in his malice all the tidings that came to him, <CoH whether by spy or by traitor, seeing in the eyes of his mind and understanding> {and perceiving} more of the deeds and purposes of his enemies than even the wisest of them feared, save only Melian the Queen{?}.
If Tolkien used a period rather than a question mark there, surely it was a mere mistake. I think we should use the question mark.

I must give the whole matter of Androg some thought before I comment on the changes and proposals relating to him.
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Old 03-01-2009, 06:14 PM   #33
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NA-TI-02b: Since we did as yet not start the discussion of Of the Ruin of Beleriand, we did not decide as a group if that battle will be included in that chapter. But I included it in my proposal for that chapter.
In our earlier version based only on Narn and Sil we included this battle, without any big discussion. In Posting #3 you commented on an inclusion of clearification which battle was meant (NA-EX-05). The text of CoH offered an other way to deal with that issue: To leave it open if Húrin and Hour got lost in the "main" battle between the forces of Angband coming down Sirion and Brethil and Doriath or in a smaller scirmish which took place at that time. Since that seemed better to me than the back reference, I used the text of Coh as I did.

NA-EX-25.02: Aiwendil worte:
Quote:
This is, after all, one of the relatively few places where we have a late, complete 'long version' by Tolkien, and in such cases I think that generally the policy should be (and has been) not to insert earlier material for the sole purpose of elaboration.
Do you refer to CoH in general as a late long version? If so, that would mean a terible lose in my oppinion. Such things as the wolf shooting of Beleg and the entrance into Nargothrond. These are details not anywere else to be found. Is it not the goal to compile a most detailed version?
Or do you refer to the opening part of the Narn only, which Tolkien finished himself to a high degree? I thought that the inclusion of parts of the poem in the earlier parts of the Narn would help to make the, in my view inascapable, changes between poesy and prosa in the later part more bearable. And I only included parts were the poem has some points of detail to add to the text of CoH and/or Narn.

NA-EX-27.25: What is strange to me in that paragrph in CoH is that the reader does not know that beleg will return to Túrin until halfe a page later. Even to the contary: just a view sentences before ion the same page Beleg answeres Túrin that it might be best if that parting would be thier last. So what was the reason for Melain to give him the lembas? to use them in his fight at the north marches? All the passage becomes much more natural if Beleg tells that he will go back to Túrin.

NA-TI-15.7: Your rewording is good, but didn't you argue to remove it? I could find any other source either, so porbably we should realy skip it because it is an Christopher Tolkien addition to Sil77. But then, it could also be part of an alternativ Narn fragment.

NA-TI-16: In Sill77 it was a questionmark, in CoH it is a fullstop. I agree that a question mark is gramaticaly correct and should be restored.

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Old 03-01-2009, 08:55 PM   #34
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NA-TI-02b: Okay, thanks for reminding me about this. I think the latest version is good.

Quote:
Do you refer to CoH in general as a late long version? If so, that would mean a terible lose in my oppinion. Such things as the wolf shooting of Beleg and the entrance into Nargothrond. These are details not anywere else to be found. Is it not the goal to compile a most detailed version?
Or do you refer to the opening part of the Narn only, which Tolkien finished himself to a high degree? I thought that the inclusion of parts of the poem in the earlier parts of the Narn would help to make the, in my view inascapable, changes between poesy and prosa in the later part more bearable. And I only included parts were the poem has some points of detail to add to the text of CoH and/or Narn.
I'm referring only to the opening part of the Narn (sorry I wasn't clear) - I agree entirely that the CoH version of the middle portions must be considered quite incomplete, and I agree with using the alliterative lay there. But the portion up to the meeting with Mim is surely to be regarded as a full, authoritative and more or less complete text. I believe we treated the late 'Tuor' the same way, and avoided adding earlier material to it for the sole purpose of elaboration. You do make a fair point that introducing excerpts from the lay early on could soften the transition to verse in the middle section. However, if we are entertaining concerns of an aesthetic nature, one could just as easily argue that adding the verse excerpts breaks the tone, rhythm, and balance of a text that Tolkien was, apparently, satisfied with from a literary standpoint.

NA-EX-27.25: I suppose you're right - Melian's gift of lembas makes little sense if Beleg is simply returning to the north-marches, but in CoH there's no suggestion he's going to join Turin.

NA-TI-15.7: Yes, I agree we should probably just drop the sentence.
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Old 03-02-2009, 07:01 AM   #35
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NA-EX-25.02, Na-EX-25.06 to Na-EX-25.12 und Na-EX-27.04 to NA-EX-27.06 (the material from the Lay added in the first part of the Narn): So what we discuss about are 4 passages from the Lay. The first is the treatment of Húrin before the talk with Morgoth. The second is the journey to Doriath and the song of Lúthien, the third is the guided entrance to Doriath with the rest at Belegs lodge and the fourth is the praising of Turins powers in the warfare at the marches.
The list is just to make clear for all what we are talking about. It also shows that the aesthetic argument was only a faint support argument and not the reason to add these parts. In each part information are given that are not in the text of the Narn. Some of course are only minor details. But especially the first two seem more substantial to me.

I must say that I was not around when the principals of editing the early Tuor were discussed. So I did not recognise that principal at all. But it is a sound one and it worked very well in the Tour text. And I remember that such an argument was brought up before.
What I was think about when I added this parts of the poem was the last sentence of our general principles: “A corallary is that we may not disregard any text or note, old idea or projected change, by JRRT unless it is invalidated by one of the above principles, explicitly or implicitly; that is, we must have a REASON for rejecting something.”
This does of course open a wide field of argumentation, since it contradicts in part the meaning of principles 2 made clear by the statement at the beginning of principal 3:
“2. Secondary priority is given to the latest ideas found among Tolkien's unpublished texts and letters, except where they:
a. violate the published canon without specifically correcting an error or
b. are proposed changes that do not clearly indicate the exact details that must be changed and how they are to be changed.
3. If no sources that fall under number 2 can be used to form the actual narrative of a section, …”

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Old 03-03-2009, 12:08 PM   #36
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2. Secondary priority is given to the latest ideas found among Tolkien's unpublished texts and letters, except where they:
a. violate the published canon without specifically correcting an error or
b. are proposed changes that do not clearly indicate the exact details that must be changed and how they are to be changed.
Quote:
A corollary is that we may not disregard any text or note, old idea or projected change, by JRRT unless it is invalidated by one of the above principles, explicitly or implicitly; that is, we must have a REASON for rejecting something.
Well, I suppose I’d argue that the alliterative ‘Turin’ is (in these sections) invalidated by principle 2, as it does not represent Tolkien’s ‘latest ideas’. I do understand where you’re coming from, though, and I suppose one could argue from your side that as long as the earlier material (the lay in this case) does not contradict the later material, it is not invalidated by principle 2, even if the later material contains a full account of Tolkien’s latest ideas.

But I think a reasonable counter-argument would be that the relevant portions of the lay are contradicted, implicitly, by the Narn. In many cases we must make the difficult judgement of whether a certain detail that appears in an early source but not in a late one was rejected by Tolkien or merely omitted. When the late text we’re dealing with is the Quenta Silmarillion or the Annals, it’s often easy to argue that the detail in question was merely omitted due to compression of the narrative (hence, our retention of the mechanical dragons for example). But here, the late text is the full ‘Narn i Chin Hurin’, the long version of the longest tale of the Elder Days and intended, as we may suppose from ‘Aelfwine and Dirhaval’, as a prose translation of the same primary source that the old lay was supposed to be verse translation of. It seems, then, very reasonable to me to think that when Tolkien omitted a detail that was found in the alliterative lay, it was because he had rejected it.

Despite this argument, I’m still of two minds about this and, to be honest, there are some lovely details in the passages of the lay you excerpt. Maybe we need a third opinion on this (Maedhros, if you happen by here, perhaps you could give us your thoughts?)

I plan to have a look at all the Androg-related material this evening and will post on that as soon as I’ve looked over it.
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Old 03-03-2009, 01:49 PM   #37
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If I may make a suggestion here, I don't think that the two forms of "Aelfwine and Dirhavel" are mutually exclusive. I think it might be best to keep A as a "Translator's Note" and to keep B as the "Preface," since those are essentially their roles. They cannot strictly be two versions of the same note, as one professes to be Tolkien's work, and the other Aelfwine's.

Also, the phrase "Minlamad thent / estent" should probably be dropped, as it doesn't seem to fit the linguistic situation perfectly. You could just say "the form of Elvish verse that was of old particular to the Narn," as that is how Tolkien described it.
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Old 03-04-2009, 02:05 PM   #38
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Aran - Interesting idea. However, I'm hesitant to do this because so much material is repeated in both A and B. Certainly, it's possible for there to be some redundancy between a 'Translator's Note' and a 'Preface', but I think that in this case it seems clear that Tolkien intended B to replace A rather than stand alongside it.

Can you explain your reservations about the name 'minlamad thent/estent'? I'm not aware of any problems with it, though I'm no Sindarin scholar.

On Andróg: Well, Findegil, I think you’ve come up with some very intriguing ideas here! Personally, I rather like the idea of Andróg as a member of Hurin’s band. Unfortunately (and I think you predicted I would say this), I fear it goes a bit too far and entails too much supposition to be justifiable within this project. Perhaps if I lay out the inferences and revisions inolved in your proposal I can better make my point:

1. We have to interpret “In this way also the matter of Mîm and his later dealings with Húrin were made clear” to assert that Andróg was a member of Hurin’s band at Nargothrond.

2. We change the ‘Narn’ so that Andróg does not die at Amon Rudh.

3. We move Beleg’s healing of Andróg from the place where it stands in the ‘Narn’ to after the battle.

4. We add to our ‘Ruin of Doriath’ text mention of Andróg being one of Hurin’s band.

5. We change the slayer of Mîm from Hurin to Andróg.

6. We assume (implicitly) that Andróg is killed by an arrow at some future point.

When I look at all that’s involved, it seems clear to me that this solution, as nice as it is, is too speculative for us. First of all, I don’t think that point 1 is at all clear-cut. It is certainly a very fascinating statement by Tolkien, and I’m grateful to you for pointing out it’s possible implications. But is Andróg as a member of Hurin’s band really the only way to read it? ‘In this way’ could, I think, be read as referring more generally to what was said before – i.e., that Dirhavel ‘gathered all the tidings and lore that he could of the House of Hador, whether among Men or Elves, remnants and fugitives of Dorlómin, of Nargothrond, or of Doriath.’ Or one could read it as implying that Andvír, rather than Andróg, was with Hurin.

Moreover, even if there were no ambiguity in point 1, the implementation of that change in points 2-6 might involve more speculation than we are allowed. In other words, even if we accept that Tolkien decided Andróg was one of Hurin’s followers, I think a good argument could be made that this falls under 2b in our principles:

Quote:
. . . proposed changes that do not clearly indicate the exact details that must be changed and how they are to be changed.
Indeed, I’m still not completely convinced that even the statement that Andróg survived the battle doesn’t fall into that category.

You also make an interesting observation about the recurrence of the motif of the traitor to Turin being killed by an arrow. But, though I think this too is an astute observation, what then do we make of the alternative form of Andróg’s curse (‘May he lack a bow at need ere his end’)? Also, there is no suggestion anywhere that Andróg himself is the one who kills the Dwarf, even if we consider Andróg’s curse a ‘source text’ for the death of Mîm (which is a bit of a stretch).

So in the end, I think that while your idea itself is great, it is not suitable for our project. On the smaller matter of whether Andróg survives Amon Rudh at all, I think we are in safer territory. I am still not entirely convinced on this point, though. What bothers me is that when it was written, Mîm’s curse was clearly supposed to be fulfilled during the attack on Amon Rudh. Having Andróg survive that battle doesn’t contradict the letter of the curse, but it does retroactively change the import of the curse from what it was when that part of the narrative was written. That’s not necessarily sufficient reason to reject Andróg’s survival, but it at least ought to be considered.

If I had to make a decision, I suppose I would vote against the revision that incorporates Andróg into Hurin’s company but for the less drastic revision that has him survive Amon Rudh (in spite of my reservations).
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Old 03-04-2009, 02:50 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Aiwendil View Post
Aran - Interesting idea. However, I'm hesitant to do this because so much material is repeated in both A and B. Certainly, it's possible for there to be some redundancy between a 'Translator's Note' and a 'Preface', but I think that in this case it seems clear that Tolkien intended B to replace A rather than stand alongside it.

Can you explain your reservations about the name 'minlamad thent/estent'? I'm not aware of any problems with it, though I'm no Sindarin scholar.
You may be right on Tolkien's decision, I was just pointing out that it's not quite as clear cut as could be hoped, and it might be good to salvage most of A somehow for the sake of added detail.

As to "minlamad thent / estent," my primary problem is that it seems to have no sure translation in the later Sindarin. Also, I doubt the form would have been retained as such, especially as Tolkien himself did not use it in B. I will try and look into it more, and see if I can trace it's etymology to anything coherent. In any case, I'd say the surest thing is to simply avoid naming it outright.

Quote:
On Andróg: Well, Findegil, I think you’ve come up with some very intriguing ideas here! Personally, I rather like the idea of Andróg as a member of Hurin’s band. Unfortunately (and I think you predicted I would say this), I fear it goes a bit too far and entails too much supposition to be justifiable within this project. Perhaps if I lay out the inferences and revisions inolved in your proposal I can better make my point:

1. We have to interpret “In this way also the matter of Mîm and his later dealings with Húrin were made clear” to assert that Andróg was a member of Hurin’s band at Nargothrond.

2. We change the ‘Narn’ so that Andróg does not die at Amon Rudh.

3. We move Beleg’s healing of Andróg from the place where it stands in the ‘Narn’ to after the battle.

4. We add to our ‘Ruin of Doriath’ text mention of Andróg being one of Hurin’s band.

5. We change the slayer of Mîm from Hurin to Andróg.

6. We assume (implicitly) that Andróg is killed by an arrow at some future point.

When I look at all that’s involved, it seems clear to me that this solution, as nice as it is, is too speculative for us. First of all, I don’t think that point 1 is at all clear-cut. It is certainly a very fascinating statement by Tolkien, and I’m grateful to you for pointing out it’s possible implications. But is Andróg as a member of Hurin’s band really the only way to read it? ‘In this way’ could, I think, be read as referring more generally to what was said before – i.e., that Dirhavel ‘gathered all the tidings and lore that he could of the House of Hador, whether among Men or Elves, remnants and fugitives of Dorlómin, of Nargothrond, or of Doriath.’ Or one could read it as implying that Andvír, rather than Andróg, was with Hurin.

Moreover, even if there were no ambiguity in point 1, the implementation of that change in points 2-6 might involve more speculation than we are allowed. In other words, even if we accept that Tolkien decided Andróg was one of Hurin’s followers, I think a good argument could be made that this falls under 2b in our principles:



Indeed, I’m still not completely convinced that even the statement that Andróg survived the battle doesn’t fall into that category.

You also make an interesting observation about the recurrence of the motif of the traitor to Turin being killed by an arrow. But, though I think this too is an astute observation, what then do we make of the alternative form of Andróg’s curse (‘May he lack a bow at need ere his end’)? Also, there is no suggestion anywhere that Andróg himself is the one who kills the Dwarf, even if we consider Andróg’s curse a ‘source text’ for the death of Mîm (which is a bit of a stretch).

So in the end, I think that while your idea itself is great, it is not suitable for our project. On the smaller matter of whether Andróg survives Amon Rudh at all, I think we are in safer territory. I am still not entirely convinced on this point, though. What bothers me is that when it was written, Mîm’s curse was clearly supposed to be fulfilled during the attack on Amon Rudh. Having Andróg survive that battle doesn’t contradict the letter of the curse, but it does retroactively change the import of the curse from what it was when that part of the narrative was written. That’s not necessarily sufficient reason to reject Andróg’s survival, but it at least ought to be considered.

If I had to make a decision, I suppose I would vote against the revision that incorporates Andróg into Hurin’s company but for the less drastic revision that has him survive Amon Rudh (in spite of my reservations).
I don't think having Andróg survive is a valid idea. Regarding the convoluted story of the "curse," Tolkien seems to have decided at the very least that Andróg was to die on Amon Rudh. I would agree with the suggestion of having Andvír be in Húrin's band.

If I may, I suggest that we use the alternate version of Andróg's curse, and note that Mîm "reached about for a weapon, but found none" when Húrin kills him, or something to that effect.

Last edited by Aran e-Godhellim; 03-04-2009 at 06:02 PM. Reason: grammar
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Old 03-04-2009, 06:06 PM   #40
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Upon further reviewing the linguistic situation of "Minlamad thent / estent," I have changed my mind. It appears to be a name made of both an acceptable form and an uncertain one. Here is my reasoning:

"Minlamad" seems to mean 'first [sound]-echoing,' refering to the alliterative form of the verse. I have come to believe, however, that "thent / estent" is not intended as a real title, but rather is the result of Professor Tolkien being unsure of which form he liked better; "thent" or "estent." Both seem to relate to "thenn," meaning 'short'. This likely refers to the fact that the alliterative verse is typically broken into two balanced, "short" lines. Due to other evidences, I would say that "thent" was probably the form finally chosen. As a final note, it might be appropriate to change "thent" to the plural form "thint."

This leaves us with "Minlamad thint" as the Elvish name of alliterative verse. (Or 'Minlamad thent' in unaltered form.)


What do you think?


EDIT: As an aside, if Aelfwine and all references to old England are to be removed, then the words "scop and walhstod" should be rendered in modern English: "poet and translator."

Last edited by Aran e-Godhellim; 03-04-2009 at 06:15 PM.
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