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Old 04-18-2009, 08:55 AM   #41
Aran e-Godhellim
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Findegil View Post
Thus we could here give the fact that Túrin wore the Dragon-Helm and avoid on brake in the alliterativ text by prose. Since it might be hard to read I give a shorter extract in clean text here:

Quote:
but one they watched, __ warded sleepless,
was stern-visored, strong, __ and in stature tall
as are Hithlum's men __ of the misty hills.
On his head he __ haughtily wore the Dragon;
tauntingly helmed they __ tried him with knives. 185
Tied he lay to __ a trunk of a tree
in baleful bonds, __ yet bold-hearted
his mouth no mercy __ of Morgoth sued,
but defied his foes. __ Foully they smote him.
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Findegil

I tried my hand at a replacement passage, and got this:

Quote:
But one they watched, __ warded sleepless,
was stern-{visaged}[visored], strong, __ and in stature tall
as are Hithlum's men __ of the misty hills.
NA-EX-46b <GA; Commentary §275 {the dragon-helm - or was it set on Túrin's head in mockery by the Orcs that tormented him}/The cruel Orc-captain __ a casque did hale
of mighty work, __ and mocking he set 185
that helm on the head __ of his hapless foe.
And seeing this heaume, __ with sight of elves,
Beleg the bowman __ did burn with cold wrath:
'twas Hador's helm, __ high and lofty,
the tormenting Orcs __ did tauntingly scorn./> 190
NA-TI-23b <Sil77 {Then in great peril they entered in, and they found Túrin fettered hand and foot and tied to a withered tree; and all about him knives that had been cast at him were embedded in the trunk,}/{Full length}/Tied/ the man lay/ to/ __ {and lashed to pickets}/a trunk of a tree/ {855}
in baleful bonds, __ yet bold-hearted
his mouth no mercy __ of Morgoth sued,
but defied his foes. __ Foully they smote him.
Then he called, as clear __ as cry of hunter 195
that hails his hounds __ in hollow places, {860}
on the name renowned __ of that noblest king -
but men unmindful __ remember him little -
Húrin Thalion, __ who Erithámrod hight,
the Unbending, __ for Orc and Balrog 200
and Morgoth's might __ on the mountain yet {865}
he defies fearless, __ on a fangéd peak
of thunder-riven __ Thangorodrim.{'}>

Then a moon mounted __ o'er the mists riding, {1045}
and the keen radiance __ of the cold moonshine 205
the shadows sharpened __ in the sheer hollows,
and slashed the slopes __ with slanting blackness;
It's a bit longer than yours, so it may require too much intervention into the text, but I prefer its flow. Here it is in plain text:

Quote:
But one they watched, __ warded sleepless,
was stern-visored, strong, __ and in stature tall
as are Hithlum's men __ of the misty hills.
The cruel Orc-captain __ a casque did hale
of mighty work, __ and mocking he set 185
that helm on the head __ of his hapless foe.
And seeing this heaume, __ with sight of elves,
Beleg the bowman __ did burn with cold wrath:
'twas Hador's helm, __ high and lofty,
the tormenting Orcs __ did tauntingly scorn. 190
Tied the man lay to __ a trunk of a tree
in baleful bonds, __ yet bold-hearted
his mouth no mercy __ of Morgoth sued,
but defied his foes. __ Foully they smote him.

(Oh, and the "but" at the beginning of the first line (181) should be capitalized like it was in Tolkien's version: I already changed it in my post.)
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Old 04-18-2009, 09:14 AM   #42
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Your suggested lines are quite good, but I'm afraid I still think it's too great a liberty for us to take. I still prefer to keep the prose passage.
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Old 04-19-2009, 10:46 AM   #43
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I must say that I disagree with you Aiwendil. The Lay is in this part for sure the most detailed text we have. That makes in natrually to our basic text. From that we have two tasks: 1. we have to bring the text to the cannon version of the story line in generall and in detail and 2. we have to add details otherwise lost if possible. A compareable situation we have had in the Lay of Leithian. We were in the lucky situation that we only found one very small passages at the departure of Beren and Felagund from Nargothrond, were we had to actually produce ryming lines. But we did aviod breaking the poem by prose inserts and we did so by propose. Here prose inserts are more acceptable here, that is true, because we already jump backward and forward between prose and poem.
But in this case we would aviod a break between a 290 line part of poem and a 560 line part. And the prose froming that break is only 5 lines of which 1 1/2 is an anyway an artifical expansion of an note from the author.

Aran, I like your lines, so I have to agree to Aiwendil that you might have used a bit to much freedom with the text. At least I would aviod the jump back to Beleg as observer. The two lines 'And seeing this heaume, __ with sight of elves,/Beleg the bowman __ did burn with cold wrath:' could be skipt with an semikolon in the line above.
And so I know that it is alway easy to critisise, I still have to say that 'casque' is hard to bear. It is too french.

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Old 04-20-2009, 03:42 PM   #44
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I must admit, I am torn here. I agree with Aiwendil that this seems too much of a textual liberty, but I also agree that when the main text is poetry we should edit with poetry.

Findegil suggested altering the lines to:

Quote:
But one they watched, __ warded sleepless,
was stern-visored, strong, __ and in stature tall
as are Hithlum's men __ of the misty hills.
The cruel Orc-captain __ a casque did hale
of mighty work, __ and mocking he set 185
that helm on the head __ of his hapless foe:
'twas Hador's helm, __ high and lofty,
the tormenting Orcs __ did tauntingly scorn.
Tied the man lay to __ a trunk of a tree
in baleful bonds, __ yet bold-hearted 190
his mouth no mercy __ of Morgoth sued,
but defied his foes. __ Foully they smote him.
I can accept that. Aiwendil probably still wishes no retention at all, however, and I'm also fine with keeping a prose insert, though the form might be unpleasing.


As an aside, I just noticed that the line "Tied the man lay to __ a trunk of a tree" doesn't seem to alliterate properly. We should try and find a suitable fix for it.
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Old 04-20-2009, 09:10 PM   #45
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Findegil wrote:
Quote:
The Lay is in this part for sure the most detailed text we have. That makes in natrually to our basic text. From that we have two tasks: 1. we have to bring the text to the cannon version of the story line in generall and in detail and 2. we have to add details otherwise lost if possible.
True, but the caveat is that we have to do those things without changing Tolkien's words except for minimal alterations. Obviously, that's an ambiguous criterion, but in the end if we deem that a text would require more than these 'minimal alterations' to bring it into line with the established canon, then we are free (indeed, obliged) not to use it.

But here the situation is slightly different, as we could incorporate the details in question via a paragraph of prose. The question is whether Aran's (or any other) proposed lines of verse constitute an acceptable 'minimal alteration' of the note that suggests the story. If they do not, then we are constrained to using the prose passage.

It's a good point, though, that this is very similar to the issue we faced in 'Beren and Luthien' where we contrived some lines based on GA. I was hesitant about that too, but I suppose we have a precedent for accepting a few lines of verse, closely based on some prose source. So I'm ambivalent (as usual!).

In the event we do use the verse passage, I would suggest a few small emendations:

Quote:
But one they watched, __ warded sleepless,
was stern-visaged, strong, __ and in stature tall
as are Hithlum's men __ of the misty hills.
The cruel Orc-captain __ a cask did hale
of mighty work, __ and mocking set 185
that helm on the head __ of his hapless foe:
'twas Hador's helm, __ high and lofty,
the tormenting Orcs __ tauntingly scorned.
To the trunk of a tree __ trammelled he lay
in baleful bonds, __ yet bold-hearted 190
his mouth no mercy __ of Morgoth sued,
but defied his foes. __ Foully they smote him.
I changed 'stern-visored' back to 'stern-visaged' because it sounded strange and because now the helm isn't actually on his head until lines 185-186. I think (addressing Findegil's concern) Tolkien probably would've used the spelling 'cask' rather than 'casque'. And I fixed the alliteration in line 189, though I don't know if the antecedent of 'he' is sufficiently clear.
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Old 04-21-2009, 08:17 AM   #46
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I agree with all your changes (I actually meant to change "mocking he set" to "mocking set," but forgot) except for line 188. I think "did tauntingly" fits better here.

And I used the spelling "casque" from a line earlier in the work: when Thingol receives the helm. I'm not sure if the Anglicized version is even correct; usually it means a large barrel.
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Old 04-21-2009, 01:46 PM   #47
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Since Tolkien used casque himself (which is bit strange but true) it is the better word.

For line 188 I have to agree to Aiwendil that 'tauntingly scorned' is the better second half-line. The alliteration has to be at the first sylable with emphasis. Thus 'did' is not that good a the start of the line.

I think we have now a very good alliteritive version which we could use. So I am all the more for using it instat of the prose lines.

Aiwendil worte:
Quote:
One of them, untitled, is based on part of Gwindor's speech about the river Sirion at Eithel Ivrin, lines 1554-1570 in the Lay. I'm almost tempted to suggest that it was in fact a replacement passage for those lines. We may want to consider using it as such.
I agree that we can simply use this as an replacement. I will give it the editing mark NA-EX-47.55. But what do we make of the three last lines placed within brackets?

About Winter comes to Nargothrond:
Quote:
Thus NA-RG-95 {Fuilin}[Guilin] and NA-RG-96 {Flinding}[Gwindor] __ {friendship}guest-kindliness showed him, 80
and their halls were his home, __ while high summer
NA-EX-49.03{waned to autumn __ and the western gales
the leaves loosened __ from the labouring boughs;
the feet of the forest __ in fading gold {2085}
and burnished brown __ were buried deeply;
a restless rustle __ down the roofless aisles
sighed and whispered. __ Lo! the Silver Wherry,
the sailing Moon __ with slender mast,
was filled with fires __ as of furnace golden {2090}
whose hold had hoarded __ the heats of summer,
whose shrouds were shaped __ of shining flame
uprising ruddy __ o'er the rim of Evening
by the misty wharves __ on the margin of the world.}<Lay, Endnote {The summer slowly __ in the sad forest
}waned and faded. __ In the west arose
winds that wandered __ over warring seas.
Leaves were loosened __ from labouring boughs:
fallow-gold they fell, __ and the feet buried {5}85
of trees standing __ tall and naked,
rustling restlessly __ down roofless aisles,
shifting and drifting.

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ The shining vessel
of the sailing moon __ with slender mast,
with shrouds shapen __ of shimmering flame, {10}90
uprose ruddy __ on the rim of Evening
by the misty wharves __ on the margin of the world.>
Thus the months fleeted __ and mightily he fared {2095}
in the forest with NA-RG-97 {Flinding}[friends], __ and his fate waited
slumbering a season, __ while he sought for joy 95
the lore learning __ and the league sharing
of the NA-RG-98 {Gnomes}[Noldor] __ renowned of Nargothrond.

The ways of the woods __ he wandered far, {2100}
and the land's secrets __ he learned swiftly
by winter unhindered __ to weathers hardened{,}. 100
NA-EX-49.05{whether snow or sleet __ or slanting rain
from glowering heavens __ grey and sunless
cold and cruel __ was cast to earth, 2105
till the floods were loosed __ and the fallow waters
of sweeping Narog, __ swollen, angry,
were filled with flotsam __ and foaming turbid
passed in tumult; __ or twinkling pale
ice-hung evening __ was opened wide, 2110
a dome of crystal __ o'er the deep silence
of the windless wastes __ and the woods standing
like frozen phantoms __ under flickering stars.}<Lay, Endnote With winding horns __ winter hunted
in the weeping woods, __ wild and ruthless;
sleet came slashing, __ and slanting hail {15}
from glowering heaven __ grey and sunless,
whistling whiplash __ whirled by tempest. 105
The floods were freed __ and fallow waters
sweeping seaward, __ swollen, angry,
filled with flotsam, __ foaming, turbid, {20}
passed in tumult. __ The tempest died.
Frost descended __ from far mountains 110
steel-cold and still. __ Stony-glinting
icehung evening __ was opened wide,
a dome of crystal __ over deep silence, {25}
over windless wastes __ and woods standing
as frozen phantoms __ under flickering stars.> 115
By day or night __ danger needless
he dared and sought for, __ his dread vengeance {2115}
ever seeking unsated __ on the sons of Angband;
yet as winter waxed __ wild and pathless,
and biting blizzards __ the bare faces 120
lashed and tortured __ of the lonely tors
and haggard hilltops, __ in the halls more often {2120}
was he found in fellowship __ with the folk of Narog,
and cunning there added __ in the crafts of hand,
and in subtle mastery __ of song and music 125
and peerless poesy, __ to his proven lore
and wise woodcraft; __ there wondrous tales {2125}
were told to Túrin __ in tongues of gold
in those mansions deep, __ there many a day
to the hearth and halls __ of the haughty king 130
did those friends now fare __ to feast and game,
That's what I thought we could make out of it.

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Last edited by Findegil; 04-21-2009 at 03:12 PM.
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Old 04-21-2009, 03:07 PM   #48
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Actually the form with "did" matches almost exactly the form of one of the lines in "The Flight of the Noldoli:"

Quote:
a shuddering fear __ and shapeless night
Perhaps we should drop the "-ly" rather than the "did" to make it match completely the form of the "Tolkienian" verse:

Quote:
the tormenting Orcs __ did taunting scorn.
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Old 04-21-2009, 06:18 PM   #49
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Well, obviuosly since Tolkien used 'casque' it can stay. (The spelling 'cask' has been used with the meaning of 'helmet' according to the OED, so I'm surprised Tolkien spelled it the French way).

Line 188: I think either 'did taunting scorn' or 'tauntingly scorned' is a perfectly good half-line. If I recall correctly, the former is a type B and the latter a type E verse. I suppose if Aran prefers 'did taunting scorn' we can go with that - indeed, it might be better simply because B verses are more common than E.

I think I now agree to using the alliterative passage rather than the prose.

Quote:
But what do we make of the three last lines placed within brackets?
I don't know if the intention could have been to simply delete them, since that would leave the last line as a sentence fragment. I suppose we could delete the last four lines, or perhaps delete the last three and change the semicolon at line 22 to a comma. But actually I think it's perfectly fine to use the last three lines, despite the brackets - Tolkien may have intended to revise them, but of course that's true of many texts.

I'm a little less sure about Winter Comes to Nargothrond. As much as I love this poem, I don't know if we really gain much of anything by chopping it up and inserting it into the Lay. So I think I lean toward omitting it and sticking with the Lay as written.
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Old 04-21-2009, 08:23 PM   #50
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If I may make one last comment on this portion, I would drop a couple words to make: "To the trunk of a tree __ trammeled he lay" into "To trunk of tree __ trammeled he lay," unless you don't like that. The first seems to have too many syllables for my taste.
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Old 04-21-2009, 08:55 PM   #51
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That works for me. As long as we're making minor suggestions, though, how about:

Quote:
to trunk of tree __ he trammeled lay
At perhaps the danger of giving the verse an iambic feel, I think the x ` x ` pattern is to be preferred to ` x x ` (I hope that makes sense).
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Old 04-22-2009, 03:37 AM   #52
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About Winter comes to Nargothrond: What about using it later as an entity? Like this:
Quote:
But Túrin passed away on the northward road, and Glaurung laughed once more, for he had accomplished the errand of his Master. Then he turned to his own pleasure, and sent forth his blast, and burned all about him. But all the Orcs that were busy in the sack he routed forth, and drove them away, and denied them their plunder even to the last thing of worth. The bridge then he broke down and cast into the foam of Narog; and being thus secure he gathered all the hoard and riches of Felagund and heaped them, and lay upon them in the innermost hall, and rested a while.NA-EX-58.15 <Lay Endnote

Winter comes to Nargothrond
The summer slowly __ in the sad forest
waned and faded. __ In the west arose
winds that wandered __ over warring seas.
Leaves were loosened __ from labouring boughs:
fallow-gold they fell, __ and the feet buried 5
of trees standing __ tall and naked,
rustling restlessly __ down roofless aisles,
shifting and drifting.

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ The shining vessel
of the sailing moon __ with slender mast,
with shrouds shapen __ of shimmering flame, 10
uprose ruddy __ on the rim of Evening
by the misty wharves __ on the margin of the world.
With winding horns __ winter hunted
in the weeping woods, __ wild and ruthless;
sleet came slashing, __ and slanting hail 15
from glowering heaven __ grey and sunless,
whistling whiplash __ whirled by tempest.
The floods were freed __ and fallow waters
sweeping seaward, __ swollen, angry,
filled with flotsam, __ foaming, turbid, 20
passed in tumult. __ The tempest died.
Frost descended __ from far mountains
steel-cold and still. __ Stony-glinting
icehung evening __ was opened wide,
a dome of crystal __ over deep silence, 25
over windless wastes __ and woods standing
as frozen phantoms __ under flickering stars.>

And Túrin hastened along the ways to the north, through the lands now desolate between Narog and {Teiglin}[Taeglin], and the Fell Winter came down to meet him; for in that year snow fell ere autumn was passed, and spring came late and cold. Ever it seemed to him as he went that he heard the cries of Finduilas, calling his name by wood and hill, and great was his anguish; but his heart being hot with the lies of Glaurung, and seeing ever in his mind the Orcs burning the house of Húrin or putting Morwen and Niënor to torment, he held on his way, and turned never aside.>
The Return of Túrin to Dor-lómin
At last worn by haste ...
Thus we have some repeating of simelar lines but I think they can bear it.

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Old 04-22-2009, 07:57 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiwendil View Post
That works for me. As long as we're making minor suggestions, though, how about:



At perhaps the danger of giving the verse an iambic feel, I think the x ` x ` pattern is to be preferred to ` x x ` (I hope that makes sense).
I agree.

I'm not so sure about "Winter Comes to Nargothrond."
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Old 04-24-2009, 09:07 AM   #54
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I'm hesitant to use 'Winter Comes to Nargothrond' there since so many lines are repeated (more or less exactly) from the Lay. I think in the end we must simply drop the poem.
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Old 04-26-2009, 12:33 PM   #55
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Well, I suposse there will be some space for it in the appendix.

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Old 04-29-2009, 03:56 AM   #56
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A few further issues I've noticed:

NA-RG-29: Here the revision places alliteration on the last stress of the line, which is not allowed:

Quote:
Though NA-RG-29 {Flinding}[the Noldo] shook him, __ he {felt}knew it not:
We could simply transpose the half-lines:

Quote:
Though NA-RG-29 {Flinding shook him, __} he {felt}knew it not[, __ the Noldo shook him]:
In the Finduilas/Gwindor/Turin section there seems to be a lot of redundancy between the prose and verse passages. The information in lines 2173-2212 of the lay, is partially repeated in the prose paragraph from the Narn that follows (NA-EX-53); and the prose paragraphs that follow are then partially repeated in the lay extract 2213-2260. I’m not entirely sure what to do about this, though.

NA-TI-28: It would be nice to know whether this passage in the ’77 and in CoH is from a Narn text or simply derived from GA. If the latter, then it would be better for us to follow GA and include the detail that Turin refrains from wedding Finduilas because he does not wish to bring his curse upon her. However, UT seems to suggest that the passage in question does derive from the Narn.

NA-TI-29: We miss the statement that Orodreth gives Turin greater honour when he learns his identity, because in our version the material about Turin’s counsels and the adoption of open warfare by the Elves of Nargothrond comes before the material on Finduilas. However, I think it would be advisable to retain the statement. I suppose the simplest thing would be just to do this:

Quote:
NA-TI-29b <Sil77 When it became known to Orodreth that the Mormegil was in truth the son of Húrin Thalion he gave him great honour, and Túrin became mighty among the people of Nargothrond. {But he had no liking for their manner of warfare, of ambush and stealth and secret arrow, and he yearned for brave strokes and battle in the open; and his counsels weighed with the King ever the longer the more.
NA-EX-58: The ‘it’ here has lost its antecedent. We should change it to:

Quote:
NA-EX-58 <Ap Narn {and} Glaurung, desiring to rid Túrin of {its}the aid and protection of the Dragon-helm (since he himself feared it), taunted him, saying that surely Túrin claimed to be his vassal and retainer, since he bore his master's likeness on the crest of his helm.
Something’s mixed up here:
Quote:
And if thou tarry for Finduilas, then never shalt thou see Morwen and never at all shalt thou see} Niënor {thy sister}<CoH again>; and they will curse thee.'
I think it should be:
Quote:
And if thou tarry for Finduilas, then never shalt thou see Morwen {and never at all shalt thou see}[or] Niënor {thy sister}<CoH again>; and they will curse thee.'
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Old 04-29-2009, 09:35 AM   #57
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Posted by Aiwendil
Quote:
In the Finduilas/Gwindor/Turin section there seems to be a lot of redundancy between the prose and verse passages. The information in lines 2173-2212 of the lay, is partially repeated in the prose paragraph from the Narn that follows (NA-EX-53); and the prose paragraphs that follow are then partially repeated in the lay extract 2213-2260. I’m not entirely sure what to do about this, though.
I can see your point. But I don't think that they are completly redundant. The only part that seemed superficialy to me is this statement:
Quote:
NA-TI-27 <Sil77 Then the heart of Finduilas was turned from Gwindor and against her will her love was given to Túrin; but Túrin did not perceive what had befallen. And being torn in heart Finduilas became sorrowful; and she grew wan and silent. ...
I think we should change that to
Quote:
NA-TI-27 <Sil77 {Then the heart of Finduilas was turned from Gwindor and against her will her love was given to Túrin; but}And Túrin did not perceive what had befallen. And being torn in heart Finduilas became sorrowful; and she grew wan and silent.
Porberbly for the rest of the material a rearangement would be helpfull:
Quote:
NA-TI-25 <Sil77 {For Gwindor’s} NA-EX-48.2 <CoH Thus Gwindor came home, and for his> sake Túrin was admitted with him into Nargothrond{, and he dwelt there in honour}<CoH for Gwindor said that he was a valiant man, dear friend of Beleg Cúthalion of Doriath.>. But when Gwindor would tell his name, Túrin checked him, saying: 'I am Agarwaen the son of Úmarth (which is the Bloodstained, son of Ill-fate), a hunter in the woods.'{; and the Elves of Nargothrond} <CoH But though the Elves guessed that he took these names because of the slaying of his friend (not knowing other reasons), they> questioned him no more.> NA-EX-50b <Ap Narn And Túrin would not wear the Helm of Hador again {"}lest it reveal him{"}.> NA-EX-49 <Lay
In those halls in the hills __ at that homecoming
mirth was mingled __ with melting tears {2000}
for the unyielding years __ whose yoke of pain
the form and face __ of NA-RG-80 {Fuilin's son }[the faithful Elf]
had changed and burdened, __ chilled the laughter 5
that leapt once lightly __ to his lips and eyes.
Now in kindly love __ was care lessened, {2005}
with song assuaged __ sadness of hearts;
the lights were lit __ and lamps kindled
o'er the burdened board; __ there bade they feast 10
Túrin Thalion __ with his true comrade
at the long tables' __ laden plenty, {2010}
where dish and goblet __ on the dark-gleaming
wood well-waxéd, __ where the wine-flagons
engraven glistened __ gold and silver. 15
Then NA-RG-81 {Fuilin}[the father] __ filled with flowing mead,
dear-hoarded drink __ dark and potent {2015}
a carven cup __ with curious brim,
by ancient art __ of olden smiths
fairly fashioned, __ filled with marvels; 20
there gleamed and lived __ in grey silver
the folk of NA-RG-82 {Faërie}[the Elves] __ in the first noontide {2020}
of the Blissful Realms; __ with their brows wreathed
in garlands golden __ with their gleaming hair
in the wind flying __ and their wayward feet 25
fitful flickering, __ on unfading lawns
the ancient Elves __ there everlasting {2025}
danced undying __ in the deep {pasture}past;
NA-RG-83 {of the gardens of the Gods; __ there Glingol shone
and Bansil bloomed __ with beams shimmering,
mothwhite moonlight __ from its misty flowers;}
the hilltops of NA-RG-86 {Tun}[Túna] __ there high and green {2030}
were crowned by NA-RG-87 {Côr}[Tirion], __ climbing, winding, 30
town white-walled __ where the tower of {Ing}[Ingwë]
with pale pinnacle __ pierced the twilight,
and its crystal lamp __ illumined clear
with slender shaft __ the Shadowy Seas. {2035}
Through wrack and ruin, __ the wrath of the NA-RG-88 {Gods}[Valar], 35
through weary wandering, __ waste and exile,
had come that cup, __ carved in gladness,
in woe hoarded, __ in waning hope
when little was left __ of the lore of old. {2040}
Now NA-RG-89 {Fuilin}[Guilin] at feast __ filled it seldom 40
save in pledge of love __ to proven friend;
blithely bade he __ of that beaker drink
for the sake of his son __ that sate nigh him
Túrin Thalion __ in token sure {2045}
of a league of love __ long enduring. 45
'NA-SL-18 {O Húrin's child __ chief of Hithlum,}[O Child of Man __ whom chance led hither,]
with mourning marred, __ may the mead of the Elves
thy heart uplift __ with hope lightened;
nor fare thou from us __ the feast ended, {2050}
here deign to dwell; __ if this deep mansion 50
thus dark-dolven __ dimly vaulted
displease thee not, __ a place awaits thee.'
There deeply drank __ a draught of sweetness
Túrin Thalion __ and returned his thanks {2055}
in eager earnest, __ while all the folk 55
with loud laughter __ and long feasting,
with mournful lay __ or music wild
of magic minstrels __ that mighty songs
did weave with wonder, __ there wooed their hearts {2060}
from black foreboding; __ there bed's repose 60
their guest was granted, __ when in gloom silent
the light and laughter __ and the living voices
were quenched in slumber. __ Now cold and slim
the sickle of the Moon __ was silver tilted {2065}
o'er the wan waters __ that washed unsleeping, 65
nightshadowed Narog, __ the NA-RG-90 {Gnome}[Noldorin]-river.
In tall treetops __ of the tangled wood
there hooted hollow __ the hunting owls.

Thus fate it fashioned __ that in NA-RG-91 {Fuilin}[the friend]'s house {2070}
the dark destiny __ now dwelt awhile 70
of Túrin the tall. __ There he toiled and fought
with the folk of NA-RG-92 {Fuilin}[Guilin] __ for NA-RG-93 {Flinding}[Gwindor]'s love;
lore long forgotten __ learned among them,
for light yet lingered __ in those leaguered places, {2075}
and wisdom yet lived __ in that wild people, 75
whose minds yet remembered __ the Mountains of the West
and the faces of the NA-RG-94 {Gods}[Valar], __ yet filled with glory
more clear and keen __ than kindreds of the dark
or Men unwitting __ of the mirth of old. {2080}

Thus NA-RG-95 {Fuilin}[Guilin] and NA-RG-96 {Flinding}[Gwindor] __ {friendship}guest-kindliness showed him, 80
and their halls were his home, __ while high summer
NA-EX-49.03{waned to autumn __ and the western gales
the leaves loosened __ from the labouring boughs;
the feet of the forest __ in fading gold {2085}
and burnished brown __ were buried deeply;
a restless rustle __ down the roofless aisles
sighed and whispered. __ Lo! the Silver Wherry,
the sailing Moon __ with slender mast,
was filled with fires __ as of furnace golden {2090}
whose hold had hoarded __ the heats of summer,
whose shrouds were shaped __ of shining flame
uprising ruddy __ o'er the rim of Evening
by the misty wharves __ on the margin of the world.}<Lay, Endnote {The summer slowly __ in the sad forest
}waned and faded. __ In the west arose
winds that wandered __ over warring seas.
Leaves were loosened __ from labouring boughs:
fallow-gold they fell, __ and the feet buried {5}85
of trees standing __ tall and naked,
rustling restlessly __ down roofless aisles,
shifting and drifting.

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ The shining vessel
of the sailing moon __ with slender mast,
with shrouds shapen __ of shimmering flame, {10}90
uprose ruddy __ on the rim of Evening
by the misty wharves __ on the margin of the world.>
Thus the months fleeted __ and mightily he fared {2095}
in the forest with NA-RG-97 {Flinding}[friends], __ and his fate waited
slumbering a season, __ while he sought for joy 95
the lore learning __ and the league sharing
of the NA-RG-98 {Gnomes}[Noldor] __ renowned of Nargothrond.

The ways of the woods __ he wandered far, {2100}
and the land's secrets __ he learned swiftly
by winter unhindered __ to weathers hardened{,}. 100
NA-EX-49.05{whether snow or sleet __ or slanting rain
from glowering heavens __ grey and sunless
cold and cruel __ was cast to earth, 2105
till the floods were loosed __ and the fallow waters
of sweeping Narog, __ swollen, angry,
were filled with flotsam __ and foaming turbid
passed in tumult; __ or twinkling pale
ice-hung evening __ was opened wide, 2110
a dome of crystal __ o'er the deep silence
of the windless wastes __ and the woods standing
like frozen phantoms __ under flickering stars.}<Lay, Endnote With winding horns __ winter hunted
in the weeping woods, __ wild and ruthless;
sleet came slashing, __ and slanting hail {15}
from glowering heaven __ grey and sunless,
whistling whiplash __ whirled by tempest. 105
The floods were freed __ and fallow waters
sweeping seaward, __ swollen, angry,
filled with flotsam, __ foaming, turbid, {20}
passed in tumult. __ The tempest died.
Frost descended __ from far mountains 110
steel-cold and still. __ Stony-glinting
icehung evening __ was opened wide,
a dome of crystal __ over deep silence, {25}
over windless wastes __ and woods standing
as frozen phantoms __ under flickering stars.> 115
By day or night __ danger needless
he dared and sought for, __ his dread vengeance {2115}
ever seeking unsated __ on the sons of Angband;
yet as winter waxed __ wild and pathless,
and biting blizzards __ the bare faces 120
lashed and tortured __ of the lonely tors
and haggard hilltops, __ in the halls more often {2120}
was he found in fellowship __ with the folk of Narog,
and cunning there added __ in the crafts of hand,
and in subtle mastery __ of song and music 125
and peerless poesy, __ to his proven lore
and wise woodcraft; __ there wondrous tales {2125}
were told to Túrin __ in tongues of gold
in those mansions deep, __ there many a day
to the hearth and halls __ of the haughty king 130
did those friends now fare __ to feast and game,
for frail Finduilas __ her father urged {2130}
to his board and favour __ to bid those twain,
and it grudging her granted __ that grimhearted
king deep-counselled - __ cold his anger, 135
his ruth unready, __ his wrath enduring;
yet fierce and fell __ by the fires of hate {2135}
his breast was burned __ for the broods of Hell
NA-SL-19 {(his son had they slain, __ the swift-footed
Halmir the hunter __ of hart and boar),
}and kinship therein __ the king ere long
in his heart discovered __ for Húrin's son, {2140}
dark and silent, __ as in dreams walking 140
of anguish and regret __ and evergrowing
feud unsated. __ Thus favour soon
by the king accorded __ of the company of his board
he was member made, __ and in many a deed {2145}
and wild venture __ to West and North 145
he achieved renown __ among the chosen warriors
and fearless bowmen; __ in far battles
in secret ambush __ and sudden onslaught,
where fell-tonguéd flew __ the flying serpents, {2150}
their shafts envenomed, __ in valleys shrouded 150
he played his part, __ but it pleased him little,
who trusted to targe __ and tempered sword NA-SL-20 {,
whose hand was hungry __ for the hilts it missed
but dared never a blade __ since the doom of Beleg} {2155}
{to draw or handle.}drawn and handled. __ Dear-holden was he,
though he wished nor willed it, __ and his works were praised.
When tales were told __ of times gone by, 155
of valour they had known, __ of vanished triumph,
glory half-forgot, __ grief remembered, {2160}
then they bade and begged __ him be blithe and sing
NA-SL-21 {of deeds in Doriath __ in the dark forest
by the shadowy shores __ that shunned the light
where Esgalduin __ the Elf-river
by root-fencéd pools __ roofed with silence, 2165
by deep eddies __ darkly gurgling,
flowed fleetly on __ past the frowning portals
of the Thousand Caves. __ Thus his thought recalled
the woodland ways __ where once of yore
Beleg the bowman __ had a boy guided 2170
by slade and slope __ and swampy thicket
neath trees enchanted;}of former deeds; __ then faltered his tongue{ faltered
and his tale was stilled}.>
NA-EX-49.1 <Lay Many bosoms burdened __ with foreboding vague 160
their glooms disowned __ neath glad laughter.
In song and silence, __ snow and tempest,
winter wore away; __ to the world there came
a year once more __ in youth unstained, {2265}
nor were leaves less green, __ light less golden, 165
the flowers less fair, __ though in faded hearts
no spring was born, __ though speeding nigh
danger and dread __ and doom's footsteps
to their halls hasted. __ Of the host of iron {2270}
came tale and tidings __ ever treading nearer; 170
Orcs unnumbered __ to the East of Narog
roamed and ravened __ on the realm's borders,
the might of Morgoth __ was moved abroad.
No ambush stayed them; __ the archers yielded {2275}
each vale by vale{, __ though venomed arrows}. 175>
NA-TI-26 <Sil77 {In the time that followed Túrin grew high in favour with Orodreth, and well-nigh all hearts were turned to him in Nargothrond. For he was young, and only now reached his full manhood; and he was in truth the son of Morwen Eledhwen to look upon: dark-haired and pale-skinned, with grey eyes, and his face more beautiful than any other among mortal Men, in the Elder Days. His speech and bearing were that of the ancient kingdom of Doriath, and even among the Elves he might be taken for one from the great houses of the Noldor; therefore many called him Adanedhel, the Elf-Man. The}In that time the sword Anglachel was forged anew for {him}Túrin by cunning smiths of Nargothrond, and though ever black its edges shone with pale fire{; and he named it Gurthang, Iron of Death. So great was his prowess and skill in warfare on the confines of the Guarded Plain that he; and the Elves said: 'The Mormegil cannot be slain, save by mischance, or an evil arrow from afar.' Therefore they gave him dwarf-mail, to guard him; and in a grim mood he found also in the armouries a dwarf-mask all gilded, and he put it on before battle, and his enemies fled before his face. NA-EX-50 <Ap Narn For Túrin would not wear the Helm again {"}lest it reveal him{"}.}<CoH . Then Túrin> himself became known as Mormegil, the Black Sword for the rumor of his deeds with that weapon; but he named the sword Gurthang, Iron of Death.
Because of his powers and his skill in warfare with Orcs Túrin found favour with Orodreth, and was admitted to his council. Now Túrin had no liking for the manner of fighting of the Elves of Nargothrond, of ambush and stealth and secret arrow, and he urged that it be abandoned, and that they should use their strength to attack the servants of the Enemy, to open battle and pursuit.> NA-EX-51 <Ap Narn Gwindor spoke ever against Túrin <CoH in this matter> in the council of the King, saying that he had been in Angband, and knew somewhat of the might of Morgoth, and <CoH had had a plimps of the power of Morgoth, and had some inkling>of his designs. ‘Petty victories will prove profitless at the last,’ he said; ‘for thus Morgoth learns where the boldest of his enemies are to be found, and gathers strength great enough to destroy them. All the might of the Elves and the Edain united sufficed only to contain him, and to gain the peace of a siege; long indeed, but only so long as Morgoth bided his time before he broke the leaguer; and never again can such a union be made. {In}<CoH Only in> secrecy{ only} lies{ now any} hope<CoH of survival>; until the Valar come.’
‘The Valar!’ said Túrin. ‘They have forsaken you, and they hold Men in scorn. What use to look westward across the endless Sea<CoH to a dying sunset in the West>? There is but one Vala with whom we have to do, and that is Morgoth; and if in the end we cannot overcome him, at the least we can hurt him and hinder him. For victory is victory, however small, nor is its worth only in what follows from it. But it is expedient also<CoH . Secrecy is not finally possible: arms are the only wall against Morgoth. If >{; for if} you do nothing to halt him, all Beleriand will fall beneath his shadow before many years are passed, and then one by one he will smoke you out of your earths. And what then? A pitiable remnant will fly south and west, to cower on the shores of the Sea, caught between Morgoth and Ossë. Better then to win a time of glory, though it be shortlived; for the end will be no worse. You speak of secrecy, and say that therein lies the only hope; but could you ambush and waylay every scout and spy of Morgoth to the last and least, so that none come ever back with tidings to Angband, yet from that he would learn that you lived and guess where. And this also I say: though mortal Men have little life beside the span of the Elves, they would rather spend it in battle than fly or submit. The defiance of Húrin Thalion is a great deed; and though Morgoth slay the doer he cannot make the deed not to have been. Even the Lords of the West will honour it; and is it not written into the history of Arda, which neither Morgoth nor Manwë can unwrite?’
‘You speak of high things,’ Gwindor answered, ‘and plain it is that you have lived among the Eldar. But a darkness is on you if you set Morgoth and Manwë together, or speak of the Valar as the foes of Elves or Men; for the Valar scorn nothing, and least of all the Children of Ilúvatar. Nor do you know all the hopes of the Eldar. It is a prophecy among us that one day a messenger from Middle-earth will come through the shadows to Valinor, and Manwë will hear, and Mandos relent. For that time shall we not attempt to preserve the seed of the Noldor, and of the Edain also? And Círdan dwells now in the South, and there is building of ships; but what know you of ships, or of the Sea? You think of yourself and of your own glory, and bid us each do likewise; but we must think of others beside ourselves, for not all can fight and fall, and those we must keep from war and ruin while we can.’
‘Then send them to your ships, while there is yet time,’ said Túrin.
‘They will not be parted from us,’ said Gwindor, ‘even could Círdan sustain them. We must abide together as long as we may, and not court death.’
‘All this I have answered,’ said Túrin. ‘Valiant defence of the borders and hard blows ere the enemy gathers: in that course lies the best hope of your long abiding together. And do those that you speak of love such skulkers in the woods, hunting always like a wolf, better than one who puts on his helm and figured shield, and drives away the foe, be they far greater than all his host? At least the women of the Edain do not. They did not hold back the men from the Nirnaeth Arnoediad.’
‘But they suffered greater woe than if that field had not been fought,’ said Gwindor.>
NA-EX-51.1 <CoH
But Túrin advanced greatly in the favour of Orodreth, and he became the chief counsellor of the King, who submitted all things to his advice{.}> NA-TI-29b <Sil77 {When it became known to Orodreth that the Mormegil was in truth the son of Húrin Thalion he gave him great honour, and Túrin became mighty among the people of Nargothrond. But he had no liking for their manner of warfare, of ambush and stealth and secret arrow, and he yearned for brave strokes and battle in the open}; and his counsels weighed with the King ever the longer the more.
In those days the Elves of Nargothrond forsook their secrecy and went openly to battle, and great store of weapons were made; and by the counsel of Túrin the Noldor built a mighty bridge over the Narog from the Doors of Felagund, for the swifter passage of their arms<CoH , since war was now chiefly east of Narog in the Guarded Plain.> Then the servants of Angband were driven out of all the land between Narog and Sirion eastward, and westward to the Nenning and the desolate Falas; <CoH {As}as its north march Nargothrond now held the ‘Debatable Land’ about the sources of Ginglith and Narog, and the fringes of the Woods of Núath. Between Nenning and Narog no Orc came; and east of Narog their realm went to the {Teiglin}[Taeglin] and the borders of the Moors of the Nibin-noeg.> {and though }Gwindor{ spoke ever against Túrin in the council of the King, holding it an ill policy, he} fell into dishonour{ and none heeded him}, for {his strength was small and }he was no longer forward in arms. Thus Nargothrond was revealed to the wrath and hatred of Morgoth; but still at Túrin's prayer his true name was not spoken, and though the fame of his deeds came into Doriath and to the ears of Thingol, rumour spoke only of the Black Sword of Nargothrond.} NA-EX-51.1 <CoH , and his strength was small; and the pain of his maimed left arm was often upon him. But Túrin was young, and only now reached his full manhood; and he was in truth the son of Morwen Eledhwen to look upon: dark-haired and pale-skinned, with grey eyes, and his face more beautiful than any other among mortal Men, in the Elder Days. His speech and bearing were those of the ancient kingdom of Doriath, and even among the Elves he might be taken for one from the great houses of the Noldor. So valiant was Túrin, and so exceedingly skilled in arms, especially with sword and shield, that the Elves said that he could not be slain, save by mischance, or an evil arrow from afar. Therefore they gave him dwarf-mail, to guard him; and in a grim mood he found also in the armouries a dwarf-mask all gilded, and he put it on before battle, and his enemies fled before his face.
Now that he had his ways, and all went well, and he had work to do after his heart, and had honour in it, he was courteous to all, and less grim than of old, so that well nigh all hearts were turned to him; and many called him Adanedhel, the Elf-Man. But most of all Finduilas the daughter of Orodreth found her heart moved whenever he came near, or was in hall.> NA-EX-52 <Lay
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ At Túrin's {sorrow}[fortune]
one marvelled and was moved, __ a maiden fair
the frail Finduilas __ that {Failivrin}[Faelivrin], {2175}
the glimmering sheen __ on the glassy pools
of Ivrin's lake __ the Elves in love 5
had named anew. __ By night she pondered
and by day wondered __ what depth of woe
lay locked in his heart __ his life marring; {2180}
for the doom of dread __ and death that had fallen
on Beleg the bowman __ in unbroken silence 10
Túrin warded, __ nor might tale be won
of NA-RG-99 {Flinding}[Gwindor] the faithful __ of their fare and deeds
in the waste together. __ Now waned her love {2185}
for the form and face __ furrowed with anguish,
for the bended back __ and broken strength, 15
the wistful eyes __ and the withered laughter
of NA-RG-100 {Flinding}[Gwindor] the faithful, __ though filled was her heart
with deepwelling pity __ and dear friendship. {2190}
Grown old betimes __ and grey-frosted,
he was wise and kindly __ with wit and counsel, 20
with sight and foresight, __ but slow to wrath
nor fiercely valiant, __ yet if fight he must
his share he shirked not, __ though the shreds of fear {2195}
in his heart yet hung; __ he hated no man,
but he seldom smiled, __ save suddenly a light 25
in his grave face glimmered __ and his glance was fired:
Finduilas maybe __ faring lightly
on the sward he saw __ or swinging pale, {2200}
a sheen of silver __ down some shadowy hall.
Yet to Túrin was turned __ her troublous heart 30
against will and wisdom __ and waking thought:
in dreams she sought him, __ his dark sorrow
with love lightening, __ so that laughter shone {2205}
in eyes new-kindled, __ and her {Elfin}[Elven] name
he eager spake, __ as in endless spring
they fared free-hearted __ through flowers enchanted 35
with hand in hand __ o'er the happy pastures
of that land that is lit __ by no light of Earth, {2210}
by no moon nor sun, __ down mazy ways
to the black abysmal __ brink of waking.>
NA-EX-53 <Ap Narn Finduilas the daughter of Orodreth was golden-haired after the manner of the house of Finarfin, and Túrin began to take pleasure in the sight of her and in her company; for she reminded him of his kindred and the women of Dor-lómin in his father's house.
At first he met her only when Gwindor was by; but after a while she sought him out, and they met at times alone, though it seemed to be chance. Then she would question him about the Edain, of whom she had seen few and seldom, and about his country and his kin.
Then Túrin spoke freely to her concerning these things, though he did not name the land of his birth nor any of his kindred; and on a time he said to her: ‘I had a sister, Lalaith, or so I named her; and of her you put me in mind. But Lalaith was a child, a yellow flower in the green grass of spring; and had she lived she would now, maybe, have become dimmed with grief. But you are queenly, and as a golden tree; I would I had a sister so fair.’
‘But you are kingly,’ said she, ‘even as the lords of the people of Fingolfin NA-EX-53.5 {; I would I had a brother so valiant}. And I do not think that Agarwaen is your true name, nor is it fit for you, Adanedhel. I call you Thúrin, the Secret.’
At this Túrin started, but he said: ‘That is not my name; and I am not a king, for our kings are of the Eldar, as I am not.’

Now Túrin marked that Gwindor's friendship grew cooler towards him; and he wondered also that whereas at first the woe and horror of Angband had begun to be lifted from him, now he seemed to slip back into care and sorrow. And he thought, it may be that he is grieved that I oppose his counsels, and have overcome him; I would it were not so. For he loved Gwindor as his guide and healer, and was filled with pity for him. But in those days the radiance of Finduilas also became dimmed, her footsteps slow and her face grave; and Túrin perceiving this surmised that the words of Gwindor had set fear in her heart of what might come to pass.
In truth Finduilas was torn in mind. For she honoured Gwindor and pitied him, and wished not to add one tear to his suffering; but against her will her love for Túrin grew day by day, and she thought of Beren and Lúthien. But Túrin was not like Beren! He did not scorn her, and was glad in her company; yet she knew that he had no love of the kind she wished. His mind and heart were elsewhere, by rivers in springs long past.
Then Túrin spoke to Finduilas, and said: ‘Do not let the words of Gwindor affright you. He has suffered in the darkness of Angband; and it is hard for one so valiant to be thus crippled and backward perforce. He needs all solace, and a longer time for healing.’
‘I know it well,’ she said.
‘But we will win that time for him!’ said Túrin. ‘Nargothrond shall stand! Never again will Morgoth the Craven come forth from Angband, and all his reliance must be on his servants; thus says Melian of Doriath. They are the fingers of his hands; and we will smite them, and cut them off, till he draws back his claws. Nargothrond shall stand!’
‘Perhaps,’ said Finduilas. ‘It shall stand, if you can achieve it. But have a care, NA-EX-53.6 <CoH {Adanedhel}Thurin>; my heart is heavy when you go out to battle, lest Nargothrond be bereaved.’ NA-EX-55b <Lay
From woe unhealed __ the wounded heart
of Túrin the tall __ was turned to her.
Amazed and moved, __ his mind's secret {2215}
half-guessed, half-guarded, __ in gloomy hour
of night's watches, __ when down narrow winding 5
paths of pondering __ he paced wearily,
he would lonely unlock, __ then loyal-hearted
shut fast and shun, __ or shroud his grief {2220}
in dreamless sleep, __ deep oblivion
where no echo entered __ of the endless war 10
of waking worlds, __ woe nor friendship,
flower nor firelight __ nor the foam of seas,
a land illumined __ by no light at all. {2225}

'O! hands unholy, __ O! heart of sorrow,
O! outlaw whose evil __ is yet unatoned, 15
wilt thou, troth-breaker, __ a treason new
to thy burden bind; __ thy brother-in-arms,
NA-RG-101 {Flinding go-Fuilin}[Gwindor] the faithful __ thus foully betray, {2230}
who thy madness tended __ in mortal perils,
to thy waters of healing __ thy wandering feet 20
did lead at the last __ to lands of peace,
where his life is rooted __ and his love dwelleth?
O! stained hands __ his hope steal not!' {2235}

Thus love was fettered __ in loyal fastness
and coldly clad __ in courteous word; 25
yet he would look and long __ for her loveliness,
in her gentle words __ his joy finding,
her face watching __ when he feared no eye {2240}
might mark his mood. __ One marked it all -
{Failivrin}[Faelivrin]'s face, __ the fleeting gleams, 30
like sun through clouds __ sailing hurriedly
over faded fields, __ that flickered and went out
as Túrin passed; __ the tremulous smiles, {2245}
his grave glances __ out of guarded shade,
his sighs in secret - __ one saw them all, 35
NA-RG-102 {Flinding go-Fuilin}[Gwindor son of Guilin], __ who had {found}gained his home
and lost his love __ to the lying years,
he watched and wondered, __ no word speaking, {2250}
and his heart grew dark __ 'twixt hate and pity,
bewildered, weary, __ in the webs of fate. 40
Then Finduilas, __ more frail and wan
twixt olden love __ now overthrown
and new refused, __ did nightly weep; {2255}
and folk wondered __ at the fair pallor
of the hands upon her harp, __ her hair of gold 45
on slender shoulders __ slipped in tumult,
the glory of her eyes __ that gleamed with fires
of secret thought __ in silent deeps.>

And {afterwards }Túrin sought out Gwindor, and said to him: ‘Gwindor, dear friend, you are falling back into sadness; do not so! For your healing will come in the houses of your kin, and in the light of Finduilas.’
Then Gwindor stared at Túrin, but he said nothing, and his face was clouded.
‘Why do you look upon me so?’ said Túrin. ‘Often your eyes have gazed strangely at me of late. How have I grieved you? I have opposed your counsels; but a man must speak as he sees, nor hide the truth that he believes, for any private cause. I would that we were one in mind; for to you I owe a great debt, and I shall not forget it.’
‘Will you not?’ said Gwindor. ‘Nonetheless your deeds and your counsels have changed my home and my kin. Your shadow lies upon them. Why should I be glad, who have lost all to you?’
But Túrin did not understand these words, and did but guess that Gwindor begrudged him his place in the heart and counsels of the King.> NA-TI-27 <Sil77 {Then the heart of Finduilas was turned from Gwindor and against her will her love was given to Túrin; but}And Túrin did not perceive what had befallen. And being torn in heart Finduilas became sorrowful; and she grew wan and silent. But Gwindor sat in dark thought NA-EX-53.7 <CoH , and he cursed Morgoth who could thus pursue his enemies with woe, withersoever they might run. ‘And now at last,’ he said, ‘I believe the rumour of Angband that Morgoth has cursed Húrin and all his kin.’ And going to Finduials he said to her: ‘A sadness and doubt is upon you; and too often now I miss you, and begin to guess that you are avoiding me. Since you tell me not the cause, I must guess. >{; and on a time he spoke to Finduilas, saying: '}Daughter of the house of Finarfin, let no grief lie between us; for though Morgoth has laid my life in ruin, you still I love. {Go}<CoH But go> whither love leads you;<CoH for I have become unfit to wed you; and neither my prowess nor my counsel have any honour more.’
Then Finduilas wept. ‘Weep not yet!’ said Gwindor. ‘But beware lest you have cause. Not fitting is it>{ yet beware! It is not fitting} that the Elder Children of Ilúvatar should wed with the Younger; nor is it wise, for they are brief, and soon pass, to leave us in widowhood while the world lasts. Neither will fate suffer it, unless it be once or twice only, for some high cause of doom that we do not perceive.
‘But this Man is not Beren <CoH , even if he be both as fair and as brave>. A doom indeed lies on him, as seeing eyes may well read in him, but a dark doom. Enter not into it! And if you will, your love shall betray you to bitterness and death. For hearken to me! Though he be indeed agarwaen son of úmarth, his right name is Túrin son of Húrin, whom Morgoth holds in Angband, and whose kin he has cursed. Doubt not the power of Morgoth Bauglir! Is it not written in me?'
Then Finduilas sat long in thought; but at the last she said only: 'Túrin son of Húrin loves me not; nor will.'>
NA-EX-53.8 <CoH Then {Finduials}she rose, and queenly indeed she looked.> NA-EX-54 <Ap Narn ‘Your eyes are dimmed, Gwindor,’ she said. ‘You do not see or understand what is here come to pass. Must I now be put to double shame to reveal the truth to you? For I love you, Gwindor, and I am ashamed that I love you not more, but have taken a love even greater, from which I cannot escape. I did not seek it, and long I put it aside. But I have pity for your hurts, have pity on mine. Túrin loves me not; nor will.’
‘You say this,’ said Gwindor, ‘to take the blame from him whom you love. Why does he seek you out, and sit long with you, and come ever more glad away?’
‘Because he also needs solace,’ said Finduilas, ‘and is bereaved of his kin. You both have your needs. But what of Finduilas? Now is it not enough that I must confess myself to you unloved, but that you should say that I speak so to deceive?’
‘Nay, a woman is not easily deceived in such a case,’ said Gwindor. ‘Nor will you find many who will deny that they are loved, if that is true.’
‘If any of us three be faithless, it is I: but not in will. But what of your doom and rumours of Angband? What of death and destruction? The Adanedhel is mighty in the tale of the World, and his stature shall reach yet to Morgoth in some far day to come.’
‘He is proud,’ said Gwindor.
‘But also he is merciful,’ said Finduilas. ‘He is not yet awake, but still pity can ever pierce his heart, and he will never deny it. Pity maybe shall be ever the only entry. But he does not pity me. He holds me in awe, as were I both his mother and a queen!’
Maybe Finduilas spoke truly, seeing with the keen eyes of the Eldar. And now Túrin, not knowing what had passed between Gwindor and Finduilas, was ever gentler towards her as she seemed more sad. But on a time Finduilas said to him: ‘Thúrin Adanedhel, why did you hide your name from me? Had I known who you were I should not have honoured you less, but I should better have understood your grief.’
‘What do you mean?’ he said. ‘Whom do you make me?’
‘Túrin son of Húrin Thalion, captain of the North.’>

NA-TI-28 <Sil77 Now when Túrin learnt from Finduilas of what had passed, he was wrathful, and he said to Gwindor: 'In love I hold you for rescue and safe-keeping. But now you have done ill to me, friend, to betray my right name, and call my doom upon me, from which I would lie hid.'
But Gwindor answered: 'The doom lies in yourself, not in your name.'>
NA-TI-29c <Sil77 When it became known to Orodreth that the Mormegil was in truth the son of Húrin Thalion he gave him great honour, and Túrin became mighty among the people of Nargothrond. {But he had no liking for their manner of warfare, of ambush and stealth and secret arrow, and he yearned for brave strokes and battle in the open; and his counsels weighed with the King ever the longer the more.
In those days the Elves of Nargothrond forsook their secrecy and went openly to battle, and great store of weapons were made; and by the counsel of Túrin the Noldor built a mighty bridge over the Narog from the Doors of Felagund, for the swifter passage of their arms. Then the servants of Angband were driven out of all the land between Narog and Sirion eastward, and westward to the Nenning and the desolate Falas; and though Gwindor spoke ever against Túrin in the council of the King, holding it an ill policy, he fell into dishonour and none heeded him, for his strength was small and he was no longer forward in arms. Thus Nargothrond was revealed to the wrath and hatred of Morgoth; but still at Túrin's prayer his true name was not spoken, and though the fame of his deeds came into Doriath and to the ears of Thingol, rumour spoke only of the Black Sword of Nargothrond.
}* * *
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Old 04-29-2009, 01:17 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiwendil View Post
Something’s mixed up here:
Quote:
And if thou tarry for Finduilas, then never shalt thou see Morwen and never at all shalt thou see} Niënor {thy sister}<CoH again>; and they will curse thee.'
I think it should be:
Quote:
And if thou tarry for Finduilas, then never shalt thou see Morwen {and never at all shalt thou see}[or] Niënor {thy sister}<CoH again>; and they will curse thee.'
But Túrin hasn't seen Niënor yet in the Narn. Morwen was near birth when he left Dor-Lomin, so the original Tolkien text is correct. Why Christopher Tolkien added "again" is beyond me; it flatly contradicts the statement earlier in the Narn that:

Quote:
Early in the year after Túrin was gone Morwen gave birth to her child, and she named her Niënor , which is Mourning...
(emphasis mine)

So Túrin has never seen Niënor, he has only heard of her.
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Old 04-30-2009, 03:56 AM   #59
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The question is which text is realy the original Tolkien text. Is it the one given in the Sil77 or the one given in CoH? The 'historical' correter form is that given in the Sil77, but that could very well be an editorial change by Christopher Tolkien. The source for these texts seems to be the Grey Annals in which we find the same text as in CoH. So the failure is one JRR Tolkien made himself which means for us that we would not neccessarly correct it.

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Old 05-18-2009, 12:45 PM   #60
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In an effort to salvage some of the momentum we had a few weeks ago - I think we are more or less agreed on everything in this section, correct?
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Old 05-18-2009, 07:42 PM   #61
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I believe so. I'll look over it again just in case I missed something.
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Old 05-19-2009, 12:41 AM   #62
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Does that mean that the rearangement form posting 57 should be incooperated in the final text?

Since we alraedy agreed on the changes in section 3 of the Narn it seems we are done with it.

So what is next? Aiwendil you proposed that we should read through all we have made so fare, but that does not creat any momentum here. I would like to procced again as we did before with a small jump back. I have a first draft for the chapter The Ruin of Beleriand. It would nicely round up the story we have worked on so fare, which tells then the long defied of the Exiles. Since from the Dagor Bargolach the single story are interconeted and woven together in the timimg it also would be good to have our editing of the Narn and the Lay of Leithian 'fresh' in memory for the editing of that particular chapter.

If you agree to it I would post my draft in the members only forum and would work out a reduced version for the public forum with some comments as soon as possible.

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Old 05-19-2009, 08:51 AM   #63
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hello again fellows

I've been in a few holidays, and I'm back again. With the new chapter I hope to help from the beginning. Today I have received Arda Reconstructed (and Sigurd and Gudrun) and when I can, I'll start to read it.

Greetings.
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Old 05-19-2009, 12:52 PM   #64
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Quote:
Does that mean that the rearangement form posting 57 should be incooperated in the final text?
It looks good to me. I still think there's a little redundancy between the prose and verse material, but that's not necessarily a problem. The latest version that you posted is definitely one I can live with, and it's probably better to leave it as it is than to get into a lot of difficult revisions to the verse to remove small redundancies.

I would still like to go over the completed chapters again sometime relatively soon, as I've found a number of corrections that I think should be made; however, it may indeed be a better idea to get 'The Ruin of Beleriand' done first. So I propose that we go ahead with that, as Findegil suggests, and then return to the completed chapters.
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Old 05-19-2009, 01:08 PM   #65
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I found a few lines I think need fixing:

For:
Quote:
Then NA-RG-17{Flinding}[Gwindor] fiercely, though fear shook him: {1105}
I prefer:
Quote:
NA-RG-17{Then Flinding fiercely}[Fierce replied Gwindor], though fear shook him: {1105}

For:
Quote:
of NA-SL-04{Gnomish lords}[Man and Elves] by night beleaguered {985}
I prefer:
Quote:
of NA-SL-04{Gnomish lords}[the Noldorim] by night beleaguered {985}

And for:
Quote:
and NA-RG-18{Flinding}[his friend] there laid his flickering lamp
I would rather:
Quote:
and NA-RG-18{Flinding}[Gwindor] there laid his {flickering}[gleaming] lamp

For:
Quote:
and NA-RG-21{Flinding}[Gwindor] go-{Fuilin}[Guilin] the feet claspéd
I prefer:
Quote:
and NA-RG-21{Flinding go-Fuilin}[Gwindor Guilinion] {the feet claspéd}[did grasp his feet]

For:
Quote:
and the names of knives and NA-RG-23.5{Gnomish}[Elvish] blades
I suggest:
Quote:
and the names of knives[,] NA-RG-23.5{and Gnomish}[Noldorin] blades[,]

And for:
Quote:
of NA-RG-07{Flinding go-Fuilin }[Guilin's son]? Shall {free}[great]-born NA-RG-07.5{Gnome}[Gwindor]
I prefer:
Quote:
of NA-RG-07{Flinding go-Fuilin }[Guilin's son]? Shall NA-RG-07.5{free-born Gnome}[Gwindor the free]

For:
Quote:
NA-RG-57{Flinding}[Gwindor] {go-Fuilin} the faithful, to his feet striding.
I prefer:
Quote:
NA-RG-57{Flinding}[Gwindor] {go-Fuilin} [his friend], to his feet striding.

And, finally (for now), for NA-SL-12:
Quote:
of Feanor}[that Finrod] founded {when they fled southward}] following Thingol;
I prefer:
Quote:
of Feanor}[that Finrod] founded {when they fled southward;}[, and following Thingol,]

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Old 05-19-2009, 02:52 PM   #66
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Aran - two of the lines you mention were already altered from what you cite (I know it's not easy to keep track of the latest version of every change).

For NA-RG-21, we had:
Quote:
and NA-RG-21faithful{Flinding}[Gwindor] {go-Fuilin} the feet claspéd
And for NA-RG-23.5:
Quote:
and the names of NA-RG-23.5 Elvish knives and {Gnomish} blades
In these two cases I think I still prefer the above.

On your other proposals:
NA-RG-17: I take it the reason for the suggestion is to make 'fierce' clearly the stronger syllable in the first half-line. That's probably wise, but I think perhaps it can be done more conservatively with:

Quote:
Then NA-RG-17{Flinding}fiercely [Gwindor], though fear shook him: {1105}
But if you still prefer your line, I have no objection to it.

NA-SL-04: I'm glad you caught this; there's no alliteration in this line! However, I don't know if 'Noldorim' should be used here, since in the later conception the only homes in the area that the Orcs are likely to have plundered belong to woodmen and perhaps some Sindar. I don't have a solution at the moment, but I'll give this line some thought.

NA-RG-18: I think your line is an improvement.

NA-RG-07: Another good catch, since we inadvertantly placed alliterated both stresses of the second half-line. I think your line is good.

NA-RG-57: The question is: can Gwindor really be called Turin's 'friend' at this point? Turin has been mad and witless on the whole journey so far, and he hasn't even asked Gwindor who he is yet. On the other hand, Gwindor could perhaps be called his friend because he has guided and helped Turin during the latter's madness.

NA-SL-12: Your line is an improvement.
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Old 05-19-2009, 08:13 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiwendil View Post
Aran - two of the lines you mention were already altered from what you cite (I know it's not easy to keep track of the latest version of every change).
...In these two cases I think I still prefer the above.
That's fine, then. I've no problem with them. I do prefer my version of NA-RG-21, but there's nothing wrong with the one you made.

Quote:
On your other proposals:
NA-RG-17: I take it the reason for the suggestion is to make 'fierce' clearly the stronger syllable in the first half-line. That's probably wise, but I think perhaps it can be done more conservatively with:

But if you still prefer your line, I have no objection to it.
I'm actually okay either way. I guess we need a third person to arbitrate.

Quote:
NA-SL-04: I'm glad you caught this; there's no alliteration in this line! However, I don't know if 'Noldorim' should be used here, since in the later conception the only homes in the area that the Orcs are likely to have plundered belong to woodmen and perhaps some Sindar. I don't have a solution at the moment, but I'll give this line some thought.
Maybe we just need to remove it entirely? I'll look into it as well.

Quote:
NA-RG-57: The question is: can Gwindor really be called Turin's 'friend' at this point? Turin has been mad and witless on the whole journey so far, and he hasn't even asked Gwindor who he is yet. On the other hand, Gwindor could perhaps be called his friend because he has guided and helped Turin during the latter's madness.
That last bit was what I was aiming for. He was a "friend" in the sense that he helped him when he was in need, not necessarily in the sense that they knew each other well.
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Old 05-20-2009, 12:45 AM   #68
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Since you ask for a third person to interfer, here are my two pence:

NA-RG-21: I would go with Aiwendils line. for one it is the smaller change and it avoids the 'Guilinion' which is surely valid, but which we never used before.

NA-RG-17: Conservativisem rules for me here so it is Aiwendils line.

NA-SL-04: I looked into it as well when you brought up the problem. Aiwendil is surely right that we can not say that the molestade poeple were Noldor. The candidates are Poeple of Haleth folk from Brethil, Woodmen south of Taeglin and remanants of Marachs folk from south of Ered Wethrin plus probably a view wandering Sindarin-Elves and fare reaching Scouts of Nargothrond. I have no solution at hand. The line is not easily removed either since it is needed for the whole part about the Orks ransacking.

NA-RG-57: Even so Gwindor is discribed very good by being 'faithfull', I think he can be called a friend by the virture of guardinf Túrin up to tht point.

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Old 05-20-2009, 08:07 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Findegil View Post
NA-RG-57: Even so Gwindor is discribed very good by being 'faithfull', I think he can be called a friend by the virture of guardinf Túrin up to tht point.
I apologize, what did you mean here? My thought behind the change was actually primarily that we seem to be using the "faithful" epithet for almost everything. I thought a change might be nice, and, as you say, he could be called "friend" by this point.

Edit:

For NA-SL-04, this is the best I've come up with, though it's not conservative at all, sadly:

Quote:
NA-SL-04{of Gnomish lords by night beleaguered}[where the Haladin dwelt were harrowed by dark] {985}

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Old 05-22-2009, 07:57 PM   #70
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Hey, guys, I'm trying to make an updated version of the Narn in alliterative verse using the 2nd Narn in Lays of Beleriand as a base, and I was wondering if you'd help criticize my updated/added verses. If you will, should I make a separate thread, or just add them to the discussion here, since this has already become really verse-oriented?
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Old 05-23-2009, 08:08 AM   #71
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NA-RG-57: I simply meant that I agree to the change you suggested.

NA-SL-04: I think that is too specific.

Posted by Aran e-Godhellim
Quote:
Hey, guys, I'm trying to make an updated version of the Narn in alliterative verse using the 2nd Narn in Lays of Beleriand as a base, and I was wondering if you'd help criticize my updated/added verses. If you will, should I make a separate thread, or just add them to the discussion here, since this has already become really verse-oriented?
I think that is worth a new thread.

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Old 05-23-2009, 08:34 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Findegil View Post
NA-SL-04: I think that is too specific.
I agree, but I haven't been able to think of anything better. Maybe Aiwendil has?

Quote:
I think that is worth a new thread.

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Okay then.
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Old 05-25-2009, 04:58 PM   #73
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NA-SL-04 is proving quite tricky. I thought of:

Quote:
of {Gnomish lords}[scattered wood-men] [overwhelmed] by night {beleaguered}
But I don't think that in Tolkien's idiom 'w' alliterates with 'wh'.

Another possibility is:

Quote:
of {Gnomish lords}[Elves and Men] {by night}[at eve] beleaguered
But I'm not sure that 'at eve' makes sense, if the point is that the Orcs took their victims at unawares in the dead of the night.
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Old 05-26-2009, 10:08 AM   #74
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Hey! How about:

Quote:
of {Gnomish lords}[scattered woodsmen encircled] by night {beleaguered}
Is that better?
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Old 05-26-2009, 12:14 PM   #75
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The only problem is that, if I recall correctly, Tolkien's alliteration treats 'sc'/'sk' as distinct from 's' or soft 'c' by itself.

How about:
Quote:
of {Gnomish lords}[Elves and Men] [ambushed] by night {beleaguered}
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Old 05-26-2009, 01:33 PM   #76
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For me the best found so far is:
Quote:
of {Gnomish lords}[Elves and Men] {by night}[at eve] beleaguered
But that is just my feeling.

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Old 05-26-2009, 04:35 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiwendil View Post
The only problem is that, if I recall correctly, Tolkien's alliteration treats 'sc'/'sk' as distinct from 's' or soft 'c' by itself.
I hadn't noticed.

How about:

Quote:
of {Gnomish lords}[lonely woodsmen] [beleaguered] by night {beleaguered}
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Old 05-27-2009, 09:50 PM   #78
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of {Gnomish lords}[lonely woodsmen] [beleaguered] by night {beleaguered}
That works for me.
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Old 05-28-2009, 01:44 AM   #79
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If that is okay for both of you, we will take it.

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Old 01-19-2011, 11:55 AM   #80
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To the same effect as in the other part of the Narn I would like to reoppen a dsicussion about NA-EX-57.1:
Quote:
Then the warriors of Nargothrond went forth, and tall and terrible on that day looked Túrin, and the heart of the host was upheld, as he rode on the right hand of Orodreth. NA-EX-57 <GA Túrin in the battle wore the Dragon-helm.> But greater far was the host of Morgoth than any scouts had told, NA-EX-57.1 <LT an army of Orcs {descended upon them}, and wolves, and Orcs mounted upon wolves;> and none but Túrin defended by {his dwarf-mask}[the Dragon-helm] could withstand the approach of Glaurung.
Earlier discussion were few only, and therefore I will summarize them here:
Findegil:
Quote:
I searched for some stuff to add to the battle and this was all that came up.
Aiwendil:
Quote:
I’m hesitant to introduce such a small detail. If LT provided substantial information that would be one thing, but to break a sentence Tolkien wrote just to add (essentially) that the host contained wolves seems to me unnecessary.
Findegil:
Quote:
I do not fight for that add. It was a just the only additional information that my search through all the descriptions of that battle brought up, so I sought I should at least offer it. I will skip it.
Thinking now farther about it, I think that we do not have wolves to often in fights in the First Age. And Wolf-riders I do not remember at all in any other battle in the First Age (this might be bad memory on my part). With that and the fact that the battle discription is laking detail and that it probably is still an compilation by Christopher Tolkien, I think we should give that information.

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