The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > The New Silmarillion > Translations from the Elvish - Public Forum
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-25-2011, 03:29 PM   #81
Ekimeniso
Newly Deceased
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 10
Ekimeniso has just left Hobbiton.
I don’t know if it’s necessarily a contradiction, but in CoH it was said (and inserted, but as far as I see through the system atm without a number?) that before Gwindor fled from the mines he
Quote:
Originally Posted by CoH
received a small sword from one who worked in the forges,
implying that the sword was wrought there, while later, when Beleg and Gwindor rescue Túrin, it says in the lay
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lay
NA-EX-47 <Lay NA-RG-20{Flinding}[Gwindor] felt for the forged knife
of {dwarfen}[dwarven] steel, ... wrought by wrights in the realms of the East,
in black Belegost, by the bearded Dwarves
of troth unmindful; it betrayed him now>
I find it questionable that Gwindor would have received another knife during his flight. Of course that's speculation.
I also find the characterisation of the Enfeng of Belegost as "of troth unmindful" questionable in light of the later conceptions.
Ekimeniso is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2011, 10:10 AM   #82
Findegil
King's Writer
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,116
Findegil is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
About the dagger:
Good catch! We could of course construct a story to discusse the contradiction away, but cannonical safty would lead to the elimination of the hole passage in the Lay.
The implication in CoH is clearly that the short sword that Gwindor got was forged in Angband. But it is not made explicit. Therefore we could assume that the short sword was the dagger or knife and that it was part of the spiols of war and only for repiar in the forge of Angband.
Quote:
I also find the characterisation of the Enfeng of Belegost as "of troth unmindful" questionable in light of the later conceptions.
For me 'of troth unmindful' does not characterise the Dwarves of Belegost in general but the act of forging the knife. It does remind me of the scene when Beleg recives Anglachel and is warned by Melian, that the sword would be useable aginst him. This warning makes little sense in our word. Since a sword can be used by everyone against everyone, nobody would need such a warning. Thus we must assume that thinks were different in that point, at least for elvish blades in Middle-Earth. That means a smith of elvish craftsmanship, mindful of troth, could creat a sword that would be unusable aginst its master. Now what the Lay does tell us, is that the Dwarves did not equip the dagger with this special feature. I agree that implicit it is suggested that they did it by propose, not by the lake of ability. But still you might have good reasons not to equip a sword with that feature, especially if it is a sword for trading.

Respecfuly
Findegil
Findegil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2015, 08:49 AM   #83
Arvegil145
Wight
 
Arvegil145's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tol Morwen
Posts: 121
Arvegil145 has just left Hobbiton.
Quote:
Doors there darkly __ dim gigantic
were hewn in the hillside; __ huge their timbers,
and their posts and lintels __ of ponderous stone. {1830}
NA-EX-48.1 <CoH Túrin in Nargothrond>
They were shut unshakeable. __ Then shrilled a trumpet 105
as a phantom fanfare __ faintly winding
I find that chapter break pretty awkward.

Maybe it would be better at this point:

Quote:
... „I have not seen him,“ said Gwindor. „But rumour of him runs through Angband that he still defies Morgoth; and Morgoth has laid a curse upon him and all his kin.“
„That I do believe,“ said Túrin.
Of their southward journey the Lay tells:

Túrin in Nargothrond


Where Narog's torrent gnashed and spouted
down his stream bestrewn with stone and boulder,
...
My reason is that it does not interrupt the poem.
__________________
Quote:
Hige sceal þē heardra, heorte þē cēnre,
mōd sceal þē māre, þē ūre mægen lytlað.
Arvegil145 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2015, 09:29 AM   #84
Findegil
King's Writer
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,116
Findegil is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
I think you work from an older version for your suggestion. But nonetheless your cirtisim is valid since the chapter break is unchanged. The suggested Point would read thus in our actual version:
Quote:
'Then have you seen Húrin son of Galdor, the warrior of Dor-lómin?' said Túrin.
'I have not seen him,' said Gwindor. 'But rumour of him runs through Angband that he still defies Morgoth; and Morgoth has laid a curse upon him and all his kin.'
'That I do believe,' said Túrin.>

NA-EX-48.1 <CoHTúrin in Nargothrond>

NA-EX-48b <CoH And now they arose, and departing from Eithel Ivrin they journeyed southward along the banks of Narog{, until they were taken by scouts of the Elves and brought as prisoners to the hidden stronghold}.
Thus did Túrin come to Nargothrond{.}:
> {<editorial bridge Of their southward journey the Lay tells:>}
<Lay Where Narog's torrent __ gnashed and spouted
down his stream bestrewn __ with stone and boulder,
swiftly southward __ they sought their paths,
and summer smiling __ smoothed their journey {1730}
through day on day, __ down dale and wood 5
where birds blithely __ with brimming music
thrilled and trembled __ in thronging trees.
Respectfuly
Findegil
Findegil is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:19 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.