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Old 11-24-2010, 09:46 AM   #41
Findegil
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Posted by Aiwendil:
Quote:
First, a general comment on the text: There is a lot of jumping back and forth between QS and GA here. This is to be expected, given the textual situation, and I think that for the most part it is skilfully done; but I worry a little that in trying to provide as complete and detailed an account as we can, we may be slicing up Tolkien's prose too indiscriminately. In particular, I think we must be careful not to use additions from other sources merely for the sake of added verbiage, but only when some substantive detail is gained. I will try to point out specific places where this is an issue.
Agreed. In reading what I did in this chapter I observed my self that I have only technically tried to minimise the amount of editorial interference. That led exactly to the results you describe.

RB-DB-01: Agreed we take your suggestion.

RB-DB-06.5: §134 ... {Third}[Fourth]: Good catch.

RB-DB-07: I thought it might be helpful because the last time we have heard of Glaurung before, we were told that he was not yet full grown. But the addition might be considered superficial.

§137: In this case I do not agree fully to your suggestion. In the first sentence it is better to take up GA fully, but I would still keep the first half sentence from the QS. And in the rest of the paragraph I think we loss a good deal of information by only taking one source.
Quote:
§137 The sons of {Finrod}[Finarfin] bore most heavily the brunt of the assaultRB-DB-08 {, and Angrod and Egnor were slain; and Bregolas son of Bëor, who was lord of that house of Men after his father's death, was slain beside them. In that battle King Inglor Felagund was }. <GA In the assault upon the defences of Dorthonion Angrod and {Egnor}[Aegnor], sons of {Finrod}[Finarfin], fell, and with them Bregolas RB-DB-09 <LQ2 , son of Bregor, who was lord of the house of Bëor after Boromir his father's death> was slain and a great part of the warriors of Beor's folk. But Barahir his brother was in the fighting further westward nigh the passes of Sirion. There King {Inglor}[Finrod] Felagund, hastening from the south, was defeated> and cut off from his folk and surrounded RB-DB-12 { by the Orcs}<GA with small company in the Fen of Serech> RB-DB-13 <LQ1 betwixt Mithrim and Dorthonion>, and he would have been slain or taken, but Barahir son of {Bëor}[Bregor] came up with his men and rescued him, and made a wall of spears about him; and they cut their way out of the battle with great loss. Thus Felagund escaped RB-DB-14 {and went south to Nargothrond, his deep fortress prepared against the evil day}; {but}[and] he swore an oath of abiding friendship and aid in every need unto Barahir and all his kin and seed, and in token of his vow he gave to Barahir his ring RB-DB-15 <GA , an heirloom of his house>. RB-DB-16 <GA Then {Inglor}[Finrod] went south to Nargothrond RB-DB-17 <QS , his deep fortress prepared against the evil day>, but Barahir returned to Dorthonion to save what he could of the people of Bëor.>
§141: Changed.

RD-DB-24: Agreed, we take the addition out.

{Damrod and Diriel}[Amros] it will be.

§143: I did not observe the chronology issue. But I am reluctant to skip all that nice interpretation why Tol Sirion was the last fortress attacked in that battle. Also I see some info in QS that is missing in GA. Some examples in detail (No. are take from the text below):
RD-DB-25.5: That Glaurung was shy of the River Sirion at this time is a motive not given eles were. Interesting that he is again in the eastern Battle in the Nirneath.
RD-DB-28: That Sauron was in command of Balrogs in this battle doth strength his position among the host of Morogth.
RD-DB-31.5: Well, this is new. I wish to keep the word 'necromancy'. As fare as I remember this is the only real connection you will get while reading the story of Middle-Earth chronological between Gorthaur of Beleriand and the Necromancer of the Mirkwood in The Hobbit. Even so the change might be called stylistic, I think it is important because we will have to live with The Hobbit as it is. I think connections should be strength if we can.
After RD-DB-32: That the final victory came by assault and not by siege is important, since it makes Orodreth escape much more feasible.
After RD-DB-33: The 'dark cloud of fear' is again a nice tie to the siege of Minas Tirith in The Lord of Rings. I think that should not be lost.
Within RD-DB-34: Orodreth is no longer Finrods brother, but his nephew. But I find 'Steward' the more fitting connection here.
RD-DB-35: Why should we loss this bridge to the future? Readers will remember this easier if we provide them with the information that it has influence in the future narrative. Now you could say that again I propose a stylistic change. But I think that I rather argue against a change with reasons of style. The difference is, that in Annals I would not expect such a style, in a 'Quenta' it is rather classical. And Tolkien is using this often in The Silmarillion, The Hobbit, and The Lord of the Rings.
Thus I would edit:
Quote:
§143 For [b]RB-DB-25.5[B] {nearly two years}[for some time] the {Gnomes}[Noldor] still defended the west pass about the sources of Sirion, for the power of Ulmo was in that water, and {Golmund}[Glaurung] would not yet adventure that way, for the time of his full strength was not come; and {Minnastirith}[Minas Tirith] withstood the Orcs. But RB-DB-26 {at length after the fall of Fingolfin, which is told hereafter, }<GA Morgoth learning now of the defeat of the sons of {Finrod}[Finrafin], and the scattering of the people of Fëanor, hemmed Fingolfin in Hithlum and sent a great force to attack the westward pass into the vales of Sirion>. Sauron came against Orodreth, the warden of the tower, with RB-DB-28 {a host of} Balrogs. RB-DB-29 {Sauron was the chief servant of the evil Vala, whom he had suborned to his service in Valinor from among the people of the Gods. He was become a wizard of dreadful power, master of necromancy,}<LQ1 Now Sauron, whom the RB-DB-30 {Noldor call Gorthu}<LQ2 Sindar called Gorthaur>, was the chief servant of Morgoth. RB-DB-31 {In Valinor he had dwelt among the people of the gods, but there Morgoth had drawn him to evil and to his service. }He was become now a sorcerer of dreadful power, master RB-DB-31.5 <moved from above of necromancy,> of shadows and of ghosts,> foul in wisdom, cruel in strength, mis-shaping what he touched, twisting what he ruled, lord of werewolves: his dominion was torment. RB-DB-32 <GA {and}And his hosts broke through and besieged the fortress of {Inglor}[Finrod], {Minnas-tirith}[Minas-Tirith] upon Tolsirion.> He took {Minnastirith}[Minas Tirith] by assault, RB-DB-33 {the tower of {Inglor}[Finrod] upon the isle of Sirion,}<GA after bitter fighting> for a dark cloud of fear fell upon those that defended it; RB-DB-34 <GA and Orodreth the {brother of Inglor}[Steward of Finrod] who held it was driven out. There he would have been slain, but {Celegorn}[Celegorm] and Curufin came up with their riders, and such other force as they could gather, and they fought fiercely, and stemmed the tide for a while; and thus Orodreth escaped and came to Nargothrond. Thither also at last before the might of Sauron fled {Celegorn}[Celegorm] and Curufin with small following; and they were harboured in Nargothrond gratefully, and the griefs that lay between the houses of Finrod and Fëanor were for that time forgotten. RB-DB-35 <moved from aboveThus it came to pass that the people of {Celegorn}[Celegorm] swelled the strength of Felagund, but it would have been better, as after was seen, if they had remained in the East among their own kin.>
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Old 11-24-2010, 02:10 PM   #42
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RB-DB-07: Adding the 'now' is a small change, and there's no real problem with it; but my inclination is that if Tolkien didn't feel the need to include it, we shouldn't either.

§137: You're right that there are some minor details in QS that would be nice to keep here. I think your suggestion is good, except that I would delete the last clause ('but Barahir returned . . .'), since the next paragraph in QS essentially says the same thing in much greater detail.

RD-DB-25.5: Findegil wrote:
Quote:
That Glaurung was shy of the River Sirion at this time is a motive not given eles were. Interesting that he is again in the eastern Battle in the Nirneath.
I agree that this is interesting - but actually this raises a point I hadn't noticed before. In GA (and in our version) we have an earlier statement that Glaurung was now 'in his full might'. But the addition from QS here says that 'the time of his full strength was not come' and cites this as the reason he dared not approach the sources of the Sirion. I suppose we could simply remove this reference, even though it robs the explanation of its point to some extent:

Quote:
For RB-DB-25.5 {nearly two years}[for some time] the {Gnomes}[Noldor] still defended the west pass about the sources of Sirion, for the power of Ulmo was in that water, and {Golmund}[Glaurung] would not yet adventure that way{, for the time of his full strength was not come}; and {Minnastirith}[Minas Tirith] withstood the Orcs.
RD-DB-28:
Quote:
That Sauron was in command of Balrogs in this battle doth strength his position among the host of Morogth.
On the other hand, one could argue that in GA, where Sauron apparently doesn't need the aid of Balrogs to capture Tol Sirion, he is more formidable. I suppose the question is whether the detail of the Balrogs was merely omitted in GA or whether Tolkien had decided that no Balrogs were present. Given the changing conception of Balrogs around this time, it seems to me that the latter is at least a strong possibility. So I'm still inclined to omit them here.

Also, it seems redundant to say that Orodreth was the warden of the tower here, since a few sentences later we say again that he held the fortress as the steward of Finrod.

RD-DB-31.5: My concern here is that Tolkien revised the passage in LQ1 and changed 'necromancy' to 'shadows and ghosts'. This may have been a mere stylistic change. It seems to me that in matters of style, we should always take Tolkien's revised version over earlier ones. I agree that making a connection to The Hobbit would be nice, but unless the revised version actually contradicted The Hobbit, I don't think we're justified in changing it.

Quote:
That the final victory came by assault and not by siege is important, since it makes Orodreth escape much more feasible.
But Orodreth's escape occurs in GA, which is where the word 'besieged' is used. Insofar as there's any difference between the QS and GA versions of the battle, the GA version is later and should be kept. Concerning Orodreth's escape: my reading of GA is that he would not have escaped, because the fortress was besieged, if Celegorm and Curufin had not arrived and come to his aid (much like Barahir helping the Finrod escape from his entrapment earlier).

RB-DB-33: Agreed, the dark cloud of fear is a good detail missing from GA.

RB-DB-34: Agreed.

RB-DB-35: Well, one could argue that the future strife is actually implicitly foretold in the words 'for that time'. However, I see nothing wrong with adding the more explicit statement from QS.

My suggestion for this section, then, is;

Quote:
§143 For RB-DB-25.5 {nearly two years}[for some time] the {Gnomes}[Noldor] still defended the west pass about the sources of Sirion, for the power of Ulmo was in that water, and {Golmund}[Glaurung] would not yet adventure that way{, for the time of his full strength was not come}; and {Minnastirith}[Minas Tirith] withstood the Orcs. But RB-DB-26 {at length after the fall of Fingolfin, which is told hereafter, }<GA Morgoth learning now of the defeat of the sons of {Finrod}[Finarfin], and the scattering of the people of Fëanor, hemmed Fingolfin in Hithlum and sent a great force to attack the westward pass into the vales of Sirion; and Sauron his lieutenant {(who in Beleriand was named Gorsodh)} led that assault{,}[.]> RB-DB-29 {Sauron was the chief servant of the evil Vala, whom he had suborned to his service in Valinor from among the people of the Gods. He was become a wizard of dreadful power, master of necromancy,}<LQ1 Now Sauron, whom the RB-DB-30 {Noldor call Gorthu}<LQ2 Sindar called Gorthaur>, was the chief servant of Morgoth. RB-DB-31 {In Valinor he had dwelt among the people of the gods, but there Morgoth had drawn him to evil and to his service. }He was become now a sorcerer of dreadful power, master of shadows and of ghosts,> foul in wisdom, cruel in strength, mis-shaping what he touched, twisting what he ruled, lord of werewolves: his dominion was torment. RB-DB-32 <GA {and}And his hosts broke through and besieged the fortress of {Inglor}[Finrod], {Minnas-tirith}[Minas-Tirith] upon {Tolsirion}[Tol Sirion]. And this they took after bitter fighting> for a dark cloud of fear fell upon those that defended it; RB-DB-34 <GA and Orodreth the {brother of Inglor}[Steward of Finrod] who held it was driven out. There he would have been slain, but {Celegorn}[Celegorm] and Curufin came up with their riders, and such other force as they could gather, and they fought fiercely, and stemmed the tide for a while; and thus Orodreth escaped and came to Nargothrond. Thither also at last before the might of Sauron fled {Celegorn}[Celegorm] and Curufin with small following; and they were harboured in Nargothrond gratefully, and the griefs that lay between the houses of Finrod and Fëanor were for that time forgotten. RB-DB-35 <moved from aboveThus it came to pass that the people of {Celegorn}[Celegorm] swelled the strength of Felagund, but it would have been better, as after was seen, if they had remained in the East among their own kin.>
GA §154 But Sauron took {Minnas-tirith}[Minas Tirith] and made it into a watch-tower for Morgoth, and filled it with evil{; for he was a sorcerer and a master of phantoms and terror}.And the fair isle of {Tolsirion}[Tol Sirion] became accursed and was called Tol-in-Gaurhoth, Isle of Werewolves; for Sauron fed many of these evil things.>
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Old 11-25-2010, 12:32 PM   #43
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Hello now my humble oppinion.

RB-DB-07 add "now".

RD-DB-31.5 add to GA information, "master of necromancy". So both texts

I think a fortress can be besieged first and then hardly assaulted. So both texts

RD-DB-28 agreed with Aiwendil.

Yes now I see Amros is better, more appropriately and later than Amras. I'm going to change it in my version.

Greetings

Last edited by gondowe; 11-25-2010 at 01:31 PM.
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Old 11-25-2010, 01:34 PM   #44
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RB-DB-07: Okay, we skip the 'now'.

§137: Agreed.

RB-DB-25.5: Your suggestion is good.

RB-DB-28: Interristing line of thinking. Looking at the beginning of the Battle were QS states two times that Balrogs were involved (see §134 before and behind RD-DB-05) this is not the case in GA §145.
And the same is true for QS §140 were it si said that 'the valour of the Elves and Men of the North, which neither Orc nor Balrog could yet overcome' which is missing from GA §147.
In GA Balrogs are not mentioned at all in this Battle.
Cosequently this would be again a case of 'By By, Balrogs'!

I agree about Orordreth and teh reduntance of him beeing The Warden of the Tower.

RB-DB-31.5: Okay, okay, yes it would be against our rules. And in addition it si redundant since a master of necromancy is a master of shadows and ghosts.

After RD-DB-32: I don't think that there is realy a diference in the course of the battle in QS and GA at this point at least non that we cold find. In QS Sauron 'took Minastirith by assault' and that is all we get. In GASaurons 'host broke through and besieged ... Minas Trirth ... and this they took after bitter fighting, and Orodreth ... was driven out.' You simply can not drive some one out by a siege. Either the besiged makes an excrusion or you make an assault. From what we have in QS I thought it would be better to make it explicit that the final victory was an assault and not and excrusion of the defenders gone a miss.
Seeing that Orodreth was already driven out, I do not agree that Celegrom and Curufin rescued him like Barahir rescued Fealgund. The words in GA that the brethern 'stemmed the tide for a while' suggest for me rather that they rescued Orodreth during a flight in which he was hoplessly outnumbered and in danger to be overrun simply by a very fast advance of his enemy. I picture the situation of Orodreth like this: He had only a very small host left. The when they drove him out the enemy was directly on his heels. When he would have turned to defend his retreat the enemy would have closed him in. But the enemy was to near to run simply without defence. Thus he had no chance to escape with out help. What the cavalary of Celegrom and Curufin did was defending Orodreth retreat so that he cold lay the necessary distance between his host and the enemy and then they cold outrun the enemy because of the greater fastness of their mounted host.

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Old 12-02-2010, 09:13 PM   #45
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Good to see you, Gondowe!

RD-DB-07: Findegil agrees to leave out the "now", but Gondowe votes to add it. Again, it's ultimately not a very important point, but my preference remains to leave it out.

RD-DB-31.5: Again, Findegil agrees to adopt the revised version but Gondowe prefers to add in "master of necromancy". But here I think our principles clearly dictate the former approach.

RD-DB-32: You make a good argument, Findegil, concerning the course of the battle. My thinking was that an assault and a siege are not mutually exclusive - i.e. while the assault was being made, Sauron could still have some forces forming a perimeter around the island, preventing escape. Then when Orodreth was driven from the tower, he would still have been trapped within Sauron's siege-perimeter. This is where I imagined Celegorm and Curufin arriving, cutting through Sauron's lines, and providing Orodreth with a route of escape, while holding off any pursuit. However, re-reading the passage in GA I think that your version fits better.

Still, if (as we agree) the story in GA makes sense in itself and is essentially the same as the story in QS, why do we need to change the passage at all? In other words, if in the GA version Sauron already takes the fortress by assault (even if that particular word is not used), why do we need to add the statement that he took it by assault from QS?
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Old 12-03-2010, 07:32 AM   #46
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RD-DB-32:
Aiwendil wrote:
Quote:
Still, if (as we agree) the story in GA makes sense in itself and is essentially the same as the story in QS, why do we need to change the passage at all? In other words, if in the GA version Sauron already takes the fortress by assault (even if that particular word is not used), why do we need to add the statement that he took it by assault from QS?
To transport the picture in the fullest version we can get? I would say neither GA nor QS gives a discription that is sufficient to get the understanding we have now. Both do not contradict what we know, but they both helped us understand what happend. I think that in this case it fits the overall goal of the project to mix both accounts.

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Old 12-05-2010, 08:59 PM   #47
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Quote:
To transport the picture in the fullest version we can get?
But if, as we agree, the fact that the tower was taken by assault is already inherent in GA, then I don't see how adding the sentence from QS makes the account any fuller.

If you really feel that adding the word "assault" from QS is critical, though, perhaps we could make the slightly smaller change:

Quote:
RB-DB-32 <GA {and}And his hosts broke through and besieged the fortress of {Inglor}[Finrod], {Minnas-tirith}[Minas-Tirith] upon {Tolsirion}[Tol Sirion]. And this they took <QS by assault> after bitter fighting> for a dark cloud of fear fell upon those that defended it;
Some further comments, up to §149:

§144: Where QS has "And Morgoth came", GA has "Then Morgoth came", beginning a new paragraph. I would follow GA in this, both because it is later and because we have taken the fuller account of Fingolfin's challenge that immediately precedes it in GA.

Quote:
. . . For I would see thy craven face.'
Then Morgoth came.> That was the last time in these wars that he passed the doors of his stronghold
We must guard against the danger of redundancy when we combine material from QS and GA. A small example is found here. In QS, when Fingolfin makes his challenge, he sounds his "horn"; in GA, it is here called a "silver horn". A few sentences later, QS mentions "the shrill music of the silver horn of Fingolfin". So in each text, the detail that the horn is silver occurs only once; however, since we take the first part of the paragraph from GA and the second part from QS, the detail shows up twice in our version as it stands, which seems superfluous. So I would remove the word "silver" at one of the two instances:

Quote:
and sounding a challenge upon his {silver} horn he called Morgoth himself to come forth to combat
RB-DF-04: It seems to me that adding "withstood him" from GA is disruptive to the prose, since it separates the "it" (in "gleam[u]ing[\u] beneath it like a star") from its antecedent. I don't think the addition is valuable enough to warrant that kind of disruption (clearly, he withstands Morgoth in QS already), so I would leave it out.

§146: For a change, let me be the one to suggest an addition from to the text to provide more vivid detail! Here our text as it stands is straight from QS, but I would add something from GA:

Quote:
. . . Yet {with his last and desperate stroke Fingolfin hewed the foot} <GA {I}in his last throe Fingolfin pinned the foot of his enemy to the earth> with Ringil, and the blood gushed forth black and smoking and filled the pits of Grond.
Here GA offers a detail lacking in QS (also, this more precise description obviates the erroneous impression I have seen people take from the passage, that Morgoth's foot was actually severed).

§147: In taking this section from QS, we miss the statement in GA that there was lamentation in Gondolin when Thorondor brought news of Fingolfin's fall, because many of the people were of Fingolfin's house. However, I fear it would be bad prose to say have "There was lamentation in Gondolin when . . ." followed, just a few sentences later, by "There was lamentation in Hithlum when . . .". Perhaps, then, we could justify combining the sentences, with some slight editorial work:

Quote:
. . . There was lamentation in Hithlum when the fall of Fingolfin became known, and in Gondolin also <GA, for many of the people of the hidden city were Noldor of Fingolfin's house>; but Fingon took the kingship of the Noldor . . .
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Old 12-06-2010, 05:40 AM   #48
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RB-DB-32: Yes, my feeling that "assault" is a justified clarification. And your proposed sentence works well for me.

§144:
I agree to the change form "And Morgoth came." to "Then Morgoth came." including a new §.

This might be a small matter, but I would rather keep the "silver" at the first place and delet it in the other one. In the first place it corrosponds very nice to the "brazen gate".

RB-DF-04: I agree. We will eleiminate that addition.

§146 / RB-DF-04.5: That is a nice addition. I agreeto take it.

§147 / RB-DF-07.5: I agree that we should mention Gondolin here. But I think we should make the addition a bit diffrent:
Quote:
There was lamentation in HithlumRB-DF-07.5 and Gondolin when the fall of Fingolfin became known; <GA , for many of the people of the hidden city were Noldor of Fingolfin's house>; but Fingon took the kingship of the Noldor ...>
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Old 12-07-2010, 04:11 PM   #49
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After we skipt the Balrogs from the host of Sauron that toke Tol Sirion, what do we do with the Balrogs in the rest of the battle?

In my oppinion, we should keep them. It seems more then logical that Balrogs were the leaders of Morgoth' hosts. In the east the force was led by Glaurung. But who was the leader in the west? Not Sauron, because the Western host still held Fingolfin pinned in the Ered Wethrin while Sauron took Tol Sirion. I think that Gothmog is the natrual choice. And thus 'neither Orc nor Balrog could yet overcome{,} Hithlum'.

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Old 01-07-2011, 11:23 PM   #50
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My first post, please be nice ;-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiwendil View Post
We must guard against the danger of redundancy when we combine material from QS and GA. A small example is found here. In QS, when Fingolfin makes his challenge, he sounds his "horn"; in GA, it is here called a "silver horn". A few sentences later, QS mentions "the shrill music of the silver horn of Fingolfin". So in each text, the detail that the horn is silver occurs only once; however, since we take the first part of the paragraph from GA and the second part from QS, the detail shows up twice in our version as it stands, which seems superfluous. So I would remove the word "silver" at one of the two instances:
Quote:
and sounding a challenge upon his {silver} horn he called Morgoth himself to come forth to combat
Wouldn't it be more sensible to remove the other instance of "silver":
Quote:
Originally Posted by QS
But he could not now deny the challenge before the face of his captains; for the rocks rang with the shrill music of the {silver} horn of Fingolfin and his voice came keen and clear down into the depths of Angband
First, so we can keep the later source more intact; second, because the scene describes how Morgoth and his host perceive Fingolfins challenge "from below": They hear the horn's "shrill music", they cannot see that it is "silver", while in the first occurrence of the horn, Fingolfin's perspective is described, where the visual part would be to the fore.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiwendil View Post
RB-DF-04: It seems to me that adding "withstood him" from GA is disruptive to the prose, since it separates the "it" (in "gleam[u]ing[\u] beneath it like a star") from its antecedent. I don't think the addition is valuable enough to warrant that kind of disruption (clearly, he withstands Morgoth in QS already), so I would leave it out.
I agree with this, but find it sad that by completely following the QS here we also lose the imagery of
Quote:
Originally Posted by GA
he towered above the Elven-king like a storm above a lonely tree"
and the (maybe a bit obvious) information that Morgoth's shield is "black". How about this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by QS
And he issued forth clad in black armour; and he stood before the king like a tower, <GA like a storm above a lonely tree,> iron-crowned, and his vast <GA black> shield, sable unblazoned, cast a shadow over him like a storm cloud.
Also, is the information that
Quote:
Originally Posted by GA
the cries of Morgoth echoed in the north-lands
insignificant or redundant enough to leave it out? How does
Quote:
Originally Posted by QS
seven times Morgoth gave a cry of anguish that <QS echoed in the north-lands>, whereat the rocks shivered, and the hosts of Angband fell upon their faces in dismay.
sound? Not very good, eh?
Quote:
§147: In taking this section from QS, we miss the statement in GA that there was lamentation in Gondolin when Thorondor brought news of Fingolfin's fall, because many of the people were of Fingolfin's house. However, I fear it would be bad prose to say have "There was lamentation in Gondolin when . . ." followed, just a few sentences later, by "There was lamentation in Hithlum when . . .". Perhaps, then, we could justify combining the sentences, with some slight editorial work:
Quote:
. . . There was lamentation in Hithlum when the fall of Fingolfin became known, and in Gondolin also <GA, for many of the people of the hidden city were Noldor of Fingolfin's house>; but Fingon took the kingship of the Noldor . . .
Stylistically, that's not very nice, as the information about the "lamentation in Gondolin" is clearly given at this point of the Grey Annals because "Thorondor brought the tidings", just as the information about the "lamentation in Hithlum" in QS serves as an introduction to Fingon being the new High-king.

If both statements should be combined, I would rather have

[QUOTE=GA]
There was lamentation in Gondolin when Thorondor brought the tidings, for many of the people of the hidden city were Noldor of Fingolfin's house; and <QS in Hithlum > also; but Fingon...

[QUOTE]
Of course, that's a quite ambiguous sentence. Maybe it would be best to keep the two statements separate and alter the second slightly after the description of Fingon's feelings in QS (is that allowed?):
Quote:
There was lamentation in Gondolin ... In Hithlum also, there was great sorrow
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Old 01-08-2011, 01:31 PM   #51
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Welcome to this part of the downs Ekimeniso!

We try to be nice to anybody who takes part in our discussion. We much to seldom have guests or new participants.

RB-DF-03.5: Two times 'silver' in §144:
I suggested them same, but your reasons are even more confincing them mine.

RB-DF-04b: The image of the lonley tree in the storm and the blackness of the shield:
About the black shield: to name the shield black when in the next moment it is discribed as 'sable unblazoned' is redundant enough. The slight diffrence does not warrant a change.
But the image of the lonley tree is diffrent. I am not confinced that it is necessary, but I will give it a try to incooperate it a bit more fluent (see below).

RB-DF-04.5: the eoching cries in the northland:
I agree that this might be helpfull to hold, since it makes it more clear were Morogoths host fell upon their faces.

So we would get:
Quote:
Then Morgoth came.> That was the last time in these wars that he passed the doors of his stronghold, and it is said that he took not the challenge willingly; for though his might RB-DF-02 {is}<LQ1 was> greatest of all things in this world, alone of the Valar he RB-DF-03 {knows}<LQ1 knew> fear. But he could not now deny the challenge before the face of his captains; for the rocks rang with the shrill music of the RB-DF-03.5{silver} horn of Fingolfin and his voice came keen and clear down into the depths of Angband; and Fingolfin named Morgoth craven, and lord of slaves. Therefore Morgoth came, climbing slowly from his subterranean throne, and the rumour of his feet was like thunder underground. And he issued forth clad in black armour; and he stood before the king like a tower, iron-crowned. RB-DF-04b<GA But Fingolfin withstood him, though he towered above the Elven-king like a storm above a lonely tree>, and his vast shield, sable unblazoned, cast a shadow over him like a{ storm} cloud. But Fingolfin gleamed beneath it like a star; for his mail was overlaid with silver, and his blue shield was set with crystals; and he drew his sword Ringil, and it glittered like ice, cold and grey and deadly. Then Morgoth hurled aloft as a mace Grond, the hammer of the Underworld, and swung it down like a bolt of thunder. But Fingolfin sprang aside, and Grond rent a mighty pit in the earth, whence smoke and fire darted. Many times Morgoth essayed to smite him, and each time Fingolfin leaped away, as a lightning shoots from under a dark cloud; and he wounded Morgoth RB-DF-04.2 {with seven wounds, and seven times Morgoth gave a cry} <GA seven times with his sword; and the cries> of anguish that Morgoth gave <GA echoed in the north-lands>, whereat the rocks shivered, and the hosts of Angband fell upon their faces in dismay.
RB-DF-07.5: The lamentation in Gondolin:
Probably we should bring that in much ealier. Turgon learned about tthe death of Fingolfin when Thorondor brought the body to the Echoriad, but Fingon learned the same from the return of Rochalor without rider I would guess. So what about this:
Quote:
... And he laid him upon a mountain-top that looked from the North upon the hidden valley of Gondolin; and Turgon coming built a high cairn over him. Neither Orc nor Balrog dared ever after to pass over the mount of Fingolfin or draw nigh his tomb, until the doom of Gondolin was come and treachery was born among his kin. RB-DF-07.5 <GA There was lamentation in Gondolin when Thorondor brought the tidings, for many of the people of the hidden city were Noldor of Fingolfin's house.> Morgoth RB-DF-06 {goes ever halt of one foot since that day, and the pain of his wounds cannot}<LQ2 went ever halt of one foot after that day, and the pain of his wounds could not> be healed; and in his face is the scar that Thorondor made.
§148 RB-DF-07 <GA Now Rochallor had stayed beside the king until the end, but the wolves of Angband assailed him, and he escaped from them because of his great swiftness, and ran at last to Hithlum, and broke his heart and died.> There was lamentation in Hithlum when the fall of Fingolfin became known; but Fingon took the kingship of the Noldor, and he maintained still his realm behind the Shadowy Mountains in the North. ...
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Old 01-08-2011, 09:40 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Findegil View Post
RB-DF-04b: The image of the lonley tree in the storm and the blackness of the shield:
About the black shield: to name the shield black when in the next moment it is discribed as 'sable unblazoned' is redundant enough. The slight diffrence does not warrant a change.
I actually agree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Findegil View Post
But the image of the lonley tree is diffrent. I am not confinced that it is necessary, but I will give it a try to incooperate it a bit more fluent (see below).
Quote:
and he stood before the king like a tower, iron-crowned. RB-DF-04b<GA But Fingolfin withstood him, though he towered above the Elven-king like a storm above a lonely tree>, and his vast shield, sable unblazoned, cast a shadow over him like a{ storm} cloud.
That's better than my suggestion, I think, but still a bit dodgy, as the contrasting description of the two contrahents going from Morgoth to Fingolfin is now repeated and (imho) thus loses some of its power (and there is also the redundancy of "tower" and "towered").

Maybe my English skills are too limited to formulate a better amalgam of the two sources in this case, but I tried this:
Quote:
and he stood before the king like a tower, iron-crowned, and his vast shield, sable unblazoned, cast a shadow over him like a <GAstorm> cloud <GA above a lonely tree>.
What do you think? Of course we're mixing the metaphors quite loosely here. And maybe there are just too many images - the tower, the storm over the tree, the cloud over the star - and the one from the GA has to go. I'm not sure.
RB-DF-07.5: The lamentation in Gondolin:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Findegil View Post
Probably we should bring that in much ealier. Turgon learned about tthe death of Fingolfin when Thorondor brought the body to the Echoriad, but Fingon learned the same from the return of Rochalor without rider I would guess. So what about this:
Quote:
... And he laid him upon a mountain-top that looked from the North upon the hidden valley of Gondolin; and Turgon coming built a high cairn over him. Neither Orc nor Balrog dared ever after to pass over the mount of Fingolfin or draw nigh his tomb, until the doom of Gondolin was come and treachery was born among his kin. RB-DF-07.5 <GA There was lamentation in Gondolin when Thorondor brought the tidings, for many of the people of the hidden city were Noldor of Fingolfin's house.>
Of course, that's more or less where the first "lamentation" stood in GA - after the building of the cairn. But then we're back at the point were Aiwendil suggested to avoid the recurrence of "there was lamentation"; maybe this can't be avoided. Logically, it would make sense to have Thorondor bring the tidings and the Gondothlim mourning before Turgon can come and build the cairn - am I having a déjà vu or was there some discussion somewhere on this forum about this already? Anyway, thus:

Quote:
... And he laid him upon a mountain-top that looked from the North upon the hidden valley of Gondolin. <GA There was lamentation in Gondolin when Thorondor brought the tidings, for many of the people of the hidden city were Noldor of Fingolfin's house.> [And] Turgon coming built a high cairn over {him} Fingolfin. Neither Orc nor Balrog dared ever after to pass over the mount of Fingolfin or draw nigh his tomb, until the doom of Gondolin was come and treachery was born among his kin.
Naturally, the course of events is debatable and I'm also fine with your way.

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Old 01-08-2011, 09:47 PM   #53
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One quick question:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Findegil
RB-DF-09 <GA {but}But {[struck out: still]} Barahir would not retreat and defended still the remant of his land and folk in Dorthonion.
So we lose
Quote:
GA $ 158. Now Morgoth's power overshadowed the north-lands, ...
Why? I'm sorry if I'm asking the obvious...

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Old 01-10-2011, 05:26 AM   #54
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RB-DF-04b:
Quote:
That's better than my suggestion, I think, but still a bit dodgy, as the contrasting description of the two contrahents going from Morgoth to Fingolfin is now repeated and (imho) thus loses some of its power (and there is also the redundancy of "tower" and "towered").
I marked that as well. But your mixed sentence is in my veiw also overloaded with metaphorical images. Probably Aiwendil is right and in the ende we have to choose one or the other image here.

RB-DF-07.5:
I don't think we had the suggestion to put in the lamentation in Gondolin at the point Fingolfin is buried before. I like your suggestion to add it even before the building of the cairn. But I would leave Turgons action as in subordinate clause and hold then 'him'. Also we might chnage Gondolin in one place, becuase other wise we get a bad style by our emendation. Either we use 'Tumladen' in the first place or 'in the City' in the second. I prefer 'Tumladen' in the first, because 'in the city' would only move the problem to a double 'city':
Quote:
... And he laid him upon a mountain-top that looked from the North upon the hidden valley of {Gondolin}Tumladen. RB-DF-07.5 <GA There was lamentation in Gondolin when Thorondor brought the tidings, for many of the people of the hidden city were Noldor of Fingolfin's house>; and Turgon coming built a high cairn over him. Neither Orc nor Balrog dared ever after to pass over the mount of Fingolfin or draw nigh his tomb, until the doom of Gondolin was come and treachery was born among his kin. ...
RB-DF-09:
I did not consider to take up the full sentence when I suggested the addition (don't ask me why), but I see that it will work better with that clause:
Quote:
... Therefore if any of the captives escaped in truth, and returned to their own people, they had little welcome, and wandered alone outlawed and desperate.
RB-DB-18b <LQ2; Correction to QS But fearing now that all strong places were doomed to fall at last before the might of Morgoth, {he}[Orodreth] sent away his wife{ Meril} to her own folk in {Eglorest}[Eglarest], and with her went their son, yet an elvenchild, and Gilgalad Starlight he was called for the brightness of his eye.>
RB-DF-09 <GA §158 Now Morgoth's power overshadowed the north-lands, but {[struck out: still]} Barahir would not retreat and defended still the remant of his land and folk in Dorthonion. ...
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Old 01-10-2011, 10:54 AM   #55
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I agree on all points

Quote:
Originally Posted by Findegil View Post
RB-DF-04b:I marked that as well. But your mixed sentence is in my veiw also overloaded with metaphorical images. Probably Aiwendil is right and in the ende we have to choose one or the other image here.

RB-DF-07.5:
I don't think we had the suggestion to put in the lamentation in Gondolin at the point Fingolfin is buried before. I like your suggestion to add it even before the building of the cairn. But I would leave Turgons action as in subordinate clause and hold then 'him'. Also we might chnage Gondolin in one place, becuase other wise we get a bad style by our emendation. Either we use 'Tumladen' in the first place or 'in the City' in the second. I prefer 'Tumladen' in the first, because 'in the city' would only move the problem to a double 'city':RB-DF-09:
I did not consider to take up the full sentence when I suggested the addition (don't ask me why), but I see that it will work better with that clause:Respectfuly
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Old 01-10-2011, 11:17 AM   #56
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[QUOTE=Findegil;597184]Part three of the text:
Quote:
§172 ... but Fingon drove them in the end with heavy slaughter from the land, and pursued them far across the sands of Fauglith RB-SE-04 <GA , {pursued}pursuing them by the horsed archers even to the Iron Mountains.>.
1. There is the redundancy of pursued...pursuing
2. "pursuing them by..." sounds ungrammatical to me
3. Should be Anfauglith

Maybe:
Quote:
§172 ... but Fingon drove them in the end with heavy slaughter from the land, and pursued them <GA {by} with the horsed archers> far across the sands of Anfauglith <GA even to the Iron Mountains.>.

Last edited by Ekimeniso; 01-10-2011 at 02:07 PM. Reason: Inserted "Maybe:"
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Old 01-10-2011, 03:04 PM   #57
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RB-SE-04:
I agree to your suggestion how to deal with the redundancy. But I am not sure that we could not still use 'Fauglith'. The full name was Dor-na-Fauglith 'Land of the Gasping Dust'. Anfauglith would then be 'The Gasping Dust' and Fauglith simply 'Gasping Dust'.

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Old 01-13-2011, 03:04 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Findegil View Post
RB-SE-04:
I agree to your suggestion how to deal with the redundancy. But I am not sure that we could not still use 'Fauglith'. The full name was Dor-na-Fauglith 'Land of the Gasping Dust'. Anfauglith would then be 'The Gasping Dust' and Fauglith simply 'Gasping Dust'.

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I have to say I find the whole matter of Fauglith, Anfauglith/Dor-na-Fauglith, Dor-no-Fauglith, Dor-nu-Fauglith confusing. You're right of course.

But something different: how are the changes of the course of events in the Shibboleth generally treated? In this case Fingon's kingship of the Noldor...
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Old 01-16-2011, 01:12 PM   #59
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Kingship of Fingon: I do not think that we must make a change for that. The sentence does allow the kingship that Fingon took up to be only that of the Noldor in Hithlum. Other wise we could simply skip 'of the Noldor', if that is thought to be better.

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Old 01-20-2011, 11:13 AM   #60
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One thing:

I don't know if this was discussed in another thread, but although the professor himself wrote in LQ that Thorondor was living in Crissaegrin, for some reason (I suppose due to the allusion in UT, earlier than the revision of the QS) I had taken the decision of place the home of Eagles in Thangorodrim and from the dead of Fingolfin tell that the eagles started living in Crissaegrin.

It would be easier for Thorondor and more coherent, that came from Thangorodrim than Crissaegrin, much further.

Perhaps the professor careless forgot it, when revising QS.

What do you think?
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Old 01-23-2011, 02:08 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Findegil View Post
Kingship of Fingon: I do not think that we must make a change for that. The sentence does allow the kingship that Fingon took up to be only that of the Noldor in Hithlum. Other wise we could simply skip 'of the Noldor', if that is thought to be better.

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Okay, I just wondered about the general treatment of the Shibboleth. In the Darkening of Valinor thread direct quotes from the Shibboleth were inserted, while the general change of the course of events (Míriels fea only leaves her body after Feanor is fully grown; Finwe only asks Manwe for a solution after he's fallen in love with Indis) was not adapted (I think it could be done). OTOH as far as I understand it the death of Amras in the burning of the ships WILL be included, right? Of course this doesn't really belong to this thread. Was this discussed somewhere before, or is there a rule of thump as to where the dividing line is between material that is treated as part of the canon and material that will not be considered? For example, if we accept that there was no High King after the fall of Fingolfin, why not insert the direct quote?
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Old 01-23-2011, 06:21 PM   #62
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RB-DF-03.5: Ekimeniso's argument about which 'silver' to retain is persuasive, so let's keep the first 'silver' and remove the second.

RB-DF-04: Actually, I don't think that the mixed metaphor (tower vs. storm) in itself is a problem, since Tolkien himself uses both of these images in QS. However, I don't think that adding the detail of Fingolfin as a lonely tree to the storm-metaphor is adequate justification for editing Tolkien's prose on so fine a level. I say pick either the QS or GA version of the passage and use that - and my inclination is to use QS since it is the fuller account and the base text for the sentences immediately before and after.

RB-DF-04.5: I have no problem with adding the detail of the echo from GA. Findegil proposes:

Quote:
and he wounded Morgoth RB-DF-04.2 {with seven wounds, and seven times Morgoth gave a cry} <GA seven times with his sword; and the cries> of anguish that Morgoth gave <GA echoed in the north-lands>, whereat the rocks shivered, and the hosts of Angband fell upon their faces in dismay.
This seems to me to require too much verbal contortion; I would prefer Ekimeniso's:

Quote:
and he wounded Morgoth with seven wounds, and seven times Morgoth gave a cry of anguish that <GA echoed in the north-lands>, whereat the rocks shivered, and the hosts of Angband fell upon their faces in dismay.
RB-DF-07.5: In my opinion, the repetition in such a short space of "There was lamentation in . . . " is unacceptable.


RB-DF-09: In QS, the flight of the Beorians and the situation of Barahir and his twelve companions is told (QS §138-139) just after the rescue of Felagund, significantly before the account of Fingolfin's death. In GA, the narrative turns away from Barahir after the rescue of Felagund and only comes back to him and his people after telling of Fingolfin's death (in GA §158-159). The solution adopted in Findegil's text is to retain QS §138 where it stands, remove §139, and then insert GA §158-159 after the death of Fingolfin. This seems to me to be problematic. Even though we have deleted QS §139, there is still redundancy between §138 and GA §158-159; the flight of most of Barahir's people and the transformation of the highland forest into the dreadful Taur-nu-Fuin are both repeated. I think we should pick one place or the other and put all the material about Barahir there - so either remove QS §138-139 or remove GA §158-159, and make any appropriate additions to the retained version from the removed version.

I would propose to remove QS §138-139 and use GA §158-159 after the death of Fingolfin:

Quote:
RB-DF-09 <GA §158 Now Morgoth's power overshadowed the north-lands , but {[struck out: still]} Barahir would not retreat and defended still the remant of his land and folk in Dorthonion. But Morgoth hunted down all that there remained of Elves or Men, and he sent Sauron against them; {and all the forest of the northward slopes of that land was turned into a region of dread and dark enchantment, so that it was after called Taur-nu-Fuin, the Forest under Nightshade.} <QS and he took all the forest and the highland of Dorthonion, save the highest and inmost region, and turned it little by little to a place of such dread and lurking evil that even the Orcs would not enter it unless need drove them. Therefore it was called by the [Noldor] [Taur-nu-Fuin], which is Mirkwood, and [Deluwaith], Deadly Nightshade; for the trees that grew there after the burning were black and grim, and their roots were tangled, groping in the dark like claws; and those who strayed among them became lost and blind, and were strangled or pursued to madness by phantoms of terror.>
§159 At last so desperate was the case of Barahir that Emeldir the Manhearted his wife ... And some were there received into Haleth's folk, and some passed on to {Dorlomin}[Dor-Lómin] and the people of {Galion}[Galdor] Hador's son. ... For these were slain one by one, or fled, until at last only Barahir and Beren his son, and Baragund and Belegund sons of Bregolas, were left, and with them {[eight >]} nine desperate men whose names were long remembered in song: Dagnir and Ragnor, Radhruin and Dairuin and Gildor, Urthel and Arthad and Hathaldir, and Gorlim Unhappy. ... No help came to them and they> <QS were hunted like wild beasts, and Morgoth sent many wolves against them; and they retreated to the barren highland above the forest, and wandered among the tarns and rocky moors of that region, furthest from the spies and spells of Morgoth. Their bed was the heather and their roof the cloudy sky.>
Here I have replaced the passages concerning Taur-nu-Fuin and the plight of the hunted outlaws in GA with the fuller corresponding passages from QS.
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Old 01-24-2011, 11:17 AM   #63
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RB-DF-03.5: Agreed.

RB-DF-04: Well, metaphors are a stylistic devices, therefor this change is one for style and not for any substance.

RB-DF-04.2: Agreed.

RB-DF-07.5: Okay, so what about this:
Quote:
... And he laid him upon a mountain-top that looked from the North upon the hidden valley of {Gondolin}Tumladen. RB-DF-07.5 <GA {There was lamentation}[Great was the sorrow] in Gondolin when Thorondor brought the tidings, for many of the people of the hidden city were Noldor of Fingolfin's house>; and Turgon coming built a high cairn over him. Neither Orc nor Balrog dared ever after to pass over the mount of Fingolfin or draw nigh his tomb, until the doom of Gondolin was come and treachery was born among his kin. Morgoth RB-DF-06 {goes ever halt of one foot since that day, and the pain of his wounds cannot}<LQ2 went ever halt of one foot after that day, and the pain of his wounds could not> be healed; and in his face is the scar that Thorondor made.
§148 RB-DF-07 <GA Now Rochallor had stayed beside the king until the end, but the wolves of Angband assailed him, and he escaped from them because of his great swiftness, and ran at last to Hithlum, and broke his heart and died.> There was lamentation in Hithlum when the fall of Fingolfin became known; but Fingon took the kingship of the Noldor, and he maintained still his realm behind the Shadowy Mountains in the North. ...
RB-DF-09: Aiwendils suggestion looks good to me.

About The Shibboleth and how we deal with it:
I do not remember that we ever discussed some of the matters that Ekimeniso brought up. When ever we made use of that work, we used the ideas given their (like the death of Amras in the burning ship). 'The rule of thump' (is this really an english proverb? it sounds very de{utssch-e}nglish to me) is rule 2.b):
Quote:
2. Secondary priority is given to the latest ideas found among Tolkien's unpublished texts and letters, except where they:
a. violate the published canon without specifically correcting an error or
b. are proposed changes that do not clearly indicate the exact details that must be changed and how they are to be changed.
But in the case of the high Kingship or the time of Míriels death or the time of the judgement of the Valar about Finwe and Míriel we have no text of higher priority. But we had the same in the case of Myths Transformed were it was decided that MT was a (for us) unworkable plan of reconstruction. I am not completly convinced for MT and do not believe in this at all for The Shibboleth. So in the end we might have to go back to DoV and rework that chapter in light of what The Shibboleth sayes.
For the case of the high-kingship i would suggest:
Quote:
§148 RB-DF-07 <GA Now Rochallor had stayed beside the king until the end, but the wolves of Angband assailed him, and he escaped from them because of his great swiftness, and ran at last to Hithlum, and broke his heart and died.> There was lamentation in Hithlum when the fall of Fingolfin became known; but Fingon took the kingship RB-DF-07.2{of the Noldor}[in Hithlum], and he maintained still his realm behind the Shadowy Mountains in the North. <SH{The prefixion in the case of Finarfin was made by Finrod only after the death of Fingolfin in single combat with Morgoth.} The Noldor then became divided into separate kingships under Fingon son of Fingolfin, Turgon his younger brother, Maedros son of Feanor, and Finrod son of Arfin; and the following of Finrod had become the greatest. At that time Finrod prefixed the name of his father following the model of Fingofin so that he became know as Finarfin.> But beyond Hithlum Morgoth pursued his foes relentlessly, ...
About Thorondor living in on Thangorodrim:
I think that this story was rejected by JRR Tolkien. But I have to look that up.

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Old 01-24-2011, 03:18 PM   #64
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Thorondor on Thangorodrim:
The former discussion on this point was very brief but it took place in this the thread about Tuor and his coming to Gondolin. The conclusion was to keep the dwelling on Thangorodrim but to be ambigiuse about time and reason for the remove to Crisseagrim.
This decission was take especilly because of the passage after the fall of Fingolfin in LQS, were Thorondor comes from Crisseagrim.

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Old 01-24-2011, 07:38 PM   #65
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RB-DF-07.5: Hmm, I think some of my previous post got lost somehow - I meant to propose this emendation:

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Neither Orc nor Balrog dared ever after to pass over the mount of Fingolfin or draw nigh his tomb, until the doom of Gondolin was come and treachery was born among his kin. Morgoth RB-DF-06 {goes ever halt of one foot since that day, and the pain of his wounds cannot}<LQ2 went ever halt of one foot after that day, and the pain of his wounds could not> be healed; and in his face is the scar that Thorondor made. <GA There was lamentation in Gondolin when Thorondor brought the tidings, for many of the people of the hidden city were Noldor of Fingolfin's house. Now Rochallor had stayed beside the king until the end, but the wolves of Angband assailed him, and he escaped from them because of his great swiftness, and ran at last to Hithlum, and broke his heart and died. Then in great sorrow Fingon took the lordship of the house of Fingolfin and the kingdom of the Noldor>, and he maintained still his realm behind the Shadowy Mountains in the North.
By taking more of the passage from GA, this avoids editorial additions and redundancy while not, in my opinion, omitting any important details. Okay, so it doesn't literally include the detail that there was lamentation in Hithlum, but it does single out Fingon's particular sorrow, which actually is a detail we lose otherwise.

Or we could take the same approach but move the sentence about Gondolin to the point Findegil suggests. I think that rather than changing 'Gondolin' to 'Tumladen', however, we could just remove the second 'Gondolin':

Quote:
And he laid him upon a mountain-top that looked from the North upon the hidden valley of Gondolin. <GA There was lamentation {in Gondolin}there when Thorondor brought the tidings, for many of the people of the hidden city were Noldor of Fingolfin's house>; and Turgon coming built a high cairn over him.
Neither Orc nor Balrog dared ever after to pass over the mount of Fingolfin or draw nigh his tomb, until the doom of Gondolin was come and treachery was born among his kin. Morgoth RB-DF-06 {goes ever halt of one foot since that day, and the pain of his wounds cannot}<LQ2 went ever halt of one foot after that day, and the pain of his wounds could not> be healed; and in his face is the scar that Thorondor made.

<GA Now Rochallor had stayed beside the king until the end, but the wolves of Angband assailed him, and he escaped from them because of his great swiftness, and ran at last to Hithlum, and broke his heart and died. Then in great sorrow Fingon took the lordship of the house of Fingolfin and the kingdom of the Noldor>, and he maintained still his realm behind the Shadowy Mountains in the North.
About the Shibboleth: I am still inclined to think that the changes to the sequence of events around Miriel's death and Finwe's remarriage fall under 2b, proposed changes that would require too much tampering for us to implement. But that discussion should really wait until we revisit DoV. The other relevant principle for some points in the late writings is 5:

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Information in sources of lower level priority is to be preferred over information in sources of higher level priority where the item of information in the source of higher level priority can be reasonably demonstrated to be an error, whether a "slip of the pen" or from inadequate checking of previous writing.
It still seems to me quite likely that some of the apparent deviations in the late writings are simply due to forgetfulness, rather than a deliberate changing of the story. Principles 2 and 5 don't dictate exactly where we draw the line between what to take up and what to reject, but they do frame the debate that must occur on each specific point.

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is this really an english proverb?
I think there was a typo in Ekimeniso's post; the proverb is 'rule of thumb'. I think the German equivalent is 'Faustregel'.
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Old 01-25-2011, 09:13 AM   #66
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RB-DF-07.5: 'There was lamentation there when ...' is not very good. I think we can simply skip the second 'there'. Otherwise I like your second suggestion.

About the Shibboleth: It seems to be a given that we will have to discuss this issue when we came agian to DoV. But for the moment we only have to make up our mind about the case of the high-kingship of the Noldor. And in my oppinion the change in Fingolfins behavior during the march is so significant that it can not be an oversight. Also it is connected to the core issue of the essay: the sindarin names of the decendence of Finwe.

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Old 01-25-2011, 04:26 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Aiwendil View Post
I think there was a typo in Ekimeniso's post; the proverb is 'rule of thumb'. I think the German equivalent is 'Faustregel'.
yeah, a typo . I agree with all the proposed changes/updates.
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Old 01-26-2011, 09:29 AM   #68
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'rule of thumb': Okay, what tricked me here was, that at least in my idiom of German their exists beside "Faustregel" also "Daumenregel", with slightly but sigificant diffrences. While a "Faustregel" is a reliable and approved approximation that does shorten the calculation significantly, a "Daumenregel" is just the utterance of the feeling someone has on the subject under investigation. So while a "Faustregel might be a bit beside the real result it does point into the right direction for sure, in contrast a "Daumenregel" might be complitly of track.

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Old 08-26-2011, 07:17 AM   #69
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Okay, I have gone through this thread to see were we are. As fare as I can say Aiwendil has commented to the Text up to §149. But I am not quite sure where he ended with his comments. The first possible place is just before RB-DF-10.

What is left as open point in the rest of the discussion is from my point of view:
RB-DF-07.5: What about this to avoid the double Gondolin:
Quote:
And he laid him upon a mountain-top that looked from the North upon the hidden valley{ of Gondolin}. RB-DF-07.5 <GA There was lamentation in Gondolin when Thorondor brought the tidings, for many of the people of the hidden city were Noldor of Fingolfin's house>; and Turgon coming built a high cairn over him.
and
RB-DF-07 and RB-DF-07.7: I have given the number 07.7 to the proposed addition about the prefexion of Arfin to Finarfin:
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§148 RB-DF-07 <GA Now Rochallor had stayed beside the king until the end, but the wolves of Angband assailed him, and he escaped from them because of his great swiftness, and ran at last to Hithlum, and broke his heart and died. Then in great sorrow Fingon took the lordship of the house of Fingolfin and the kingdom of the Noldor[ in Hithlum]> {There was lamentation in Hithlum when the fall of Fingolfin became known; but Fingon took the kingship of the Noldor}, and he maintained still his realm behind the Shadowy Mountains in the North. RB-DF-07.7 <Shibboleth {The prefixion in the case of Finarfin was made by Finrod only after the death of Fingolfin in single combat with Morgoth.} The Noldor then became divided into separate kingships under Fingon son of Fingolfin, Turgon his younger brother, {Maedros}[Maedron] son of Feanor, and Finrod son of Arfin; and the following of Finrod had become the greatest. At that time Finrod prefixed the name of his father following the model of Fingofin so that he became know as Finarfin.> But beyond Hithlum Morgoth pursued his foes relentlessly, and he searched out their hiding-places and took their strongholds one by one. ...
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Old 09-02-2011, 03:30 AM   #70
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As in my version, the text of the Names of the descendants of Finwë is included as a part of the "whole" appendix of the Tongues, the explanation of the Arfin name can be read there. But it looks like well as you state here.

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Old 09-10-2011, 01:56 PM   #71
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RB-DF-07.5: I think Findegil's last suggestion is good.

RB-DF-07.7: As it stands, this addition is confusing - it sounds as if Finrod is adding a prefix to his own name rather than that of his father. Moreover, the linguistic note feels rather out of place in the midst of the narrative. If we must include this point here, perhaps a footnote quoting the 'Shibboleth' more directly would be better.

I don't recall at the moment whether I had reviewed the changes past RB-DF-10; I'll see if I have any notes on them lying around.
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Old 09-13-2011, 04:20 AM   #72
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Nice to read a pot from you Aiwendil!

RB-DF-07.7: I think we might skip that addition completly and add a direct qoute from the Shibboleth in th chapter 5 Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalië.

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Old 09-28-2011, 07:35 PM   #73
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I'm glad to have finally made some time to get back into things here.

I agree about skipping RB-DF-07.7 here and adding the quote to 'Of Eldamar'.

A few more comments for now:

RB-DF-11: In the latest conception, 'Haladin' refers not to the folk of Brethil in general but only to the family of Haleth, so this should be:

Quote:
but RB-DF-11 {Haleth}[Halmir Lord of the Halethrim] sent swift word to Thingol
RB-DF-12, -13: I think we can stick to GA a bit more in the interest of stylistic unity:

Quote:
And Thingol sent Beleg the bowman, chief of his march-wardens, to his aid with many archers RB-DF-12 <GA and great strength of the Eglath armed with axes; and issuing from the deeps of the forest they took an Orc-legion at unawares and destroyed it. Thus for a while the black tide out of the North was stemmed in that region and the Orcs did not dare to cross the {Taiglin}[Taeglin] for many years after.> Thus the folk of Haleth dwelt yet for many years in watchful peace in the forest of Brethil; and behind their guard the kingdom of Nargothrond had respite and mustered anew its strength.
Note that QS mentions archers and GA mentions axes; one doesn't quite know whether this is simply an alternative description or whether it means that Tolkien changed his mind about how Beleg's company was equipped. But as Beleg was obviously a bowman, it makes sense that there would be other archers in the company as well, so I think we can let both descriptors stand.

RB-DF-14: An account of Hurin and Huor in Gondolin also, of course, appears in our version of the 'Narn'. I looked back at the Narn thread to remind myself if we had discussed this issue there, but it seem that at the time we simply included the account in the Narn without deciding what to do in 'The Ruin of Beleriand' (if I'm missing someplace where we discussed this further, please let me know).

On one level, I have to say I'm tempted to remove the account completely from this chapter since it seems redundant with the Narn. The problem with this, however, is that the Narn leaves out the main battle with the Orcs and its context in post-Bragollach Beleriand, focusing exclusively on Hurin and Huor.

At the very least, I think we should stick entirely to QS here, since material introduced from GA is quite blatantly redundant with the Narn (which in this section is closely based on GA).

§172: Again here, I am inclined to stick more closely to GA, as it seems to me that the additions from QS add only verbiage and not substance. It even seems to me that the statement in QS that 'the Orcs won many of the passes, and some came even into Mithrim' may contradict GA. In QS, only 'some' Orcs penetrated the mountains as far as Mithrim, and Fingon was able to drive them off himself; in GA, they penetrate the mountains in sufficient numbers that Fingon is 'outnumbered' and the Orcs are only driven off with the aid of Cirdan. I would take this whole paragraph from GA with no additions from QS.
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Old 09-29-2011, 08:24 AM   #74
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RB-DF-11: Very good catch. Agreed.

RB-DF-12; -13: Your editing is good. Agreed.

RB-DF-14: This was discussed under the labels NA-EX-05 and NA-TI-02b in the thread Narn I Chîn Húrin1: Túrins Fostering on page 1. My Posting #33 gives a good overview.
I agree that the story now as our texts stand are told twice in diffrent words. I agree and tried to do as fare as possible that we should use only the text of QS to avoid redundant wording. If it is undisiered all together to have the story told twice I would rather skip here the passage dealing with Húrin and Hour alltogether, and not cut anything out of our Narn version. But if we do so it would be hard to find a reason for Turgon being mentioned here at all. I would rather let the story stand here told very briefly and then in an more ampel scale in the Narn.

§172: I have to read both accounts again before further comments, but I think my interpretation was based on the view that there is diffrence between Hithlum and Mithrim. I will come back to this point.

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Old 09-29-2011, 01:20 PM   #75
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Hello fellows,

as for the change Haladin for Halethrim, I had seen it but, what can we do with the previous occurrences of Haladin in the Chapter 23 Of the Coming of the Edain & their Hauses and Lordships in Beleriand, f.e. named by Bëor, even when Haleth had not born.
Perhaps it is a change not developed by the professor, or you think its an internal change?

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Old 09-29-2011, 06:56 PM   #76
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Good to see you, gondowe!

You make a good point that without 'Haladin' we have no general word to refer to the second kindred of the Edain prior to the chieftanship of Haleth. But really we are only dealing with two or three mentions of them before Haleth appears, and I think it would be a shame to let that prevent us from taking up the change. At worst, I expect we could refer to the people 'who later were called the Halethrim', or something along those lines.

RB-DF-14: I agree completely that the version in the Narn should remain there, regardless of what we do here.

But I'm still torn as to what to do here. I have to say, I'm somewhat inclined to reduce the whole episode here to a brief mention and say 'as is after told'. This would be much as in QS, the destruction of Barahir's band is mentioned in a single sentence in the present chapter and then the full story is told in 'Of Beren and Luthien'. It seems rather undesirable to me to tell the same story twice, even if it is in different words. But, like I said, I need to give it a little bit more thought.
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Old 10-02-2011, 11:29 AM   #77
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Comments for the remainder of the chapter:

RB-SM-01: It seems to me that by adding this sentence from GA, we end up saying twice that the swarthy men came into Beleriand. I do see that the GA passage gives a more detailed picture of their movements and also adds the detail that the Dwarves had told Maedhros of their approach, but I think these could be worked in without the redundancy:

Quote:
§150 . . . And it is said that at this time the Swarthy Men came first {into Beleriand;} <GAout of Eriador, and passing north about the Eryd Luin entered into Lothlann. Their coming was not wholly unlookedfor, since the Dwarves had warned {Maidros}[Maeðros] that hosts of Men out of the further East were journeying towards Beleriand.> [A]nd some were already secretly under the dominion of Morgoth, and came at his call; but not all . . .
RB-SM-05: There is another slight redundancy here in that QS has already stated that some of the Swarthy Men were already in league with Morgoth. But here it is not so easy to simply take the extra details from GA and add them to the passage in QS, since the GA statement refers to the folk of Bor and Ulfang, who are not introduced in QS until the following paragraph. I suppose the redundancy is slight enough that we might let it stand. Another solution might be to follow GA version I and put the whole statement in the footnote instead of just the second half of it as in version II.

RB-SM-06: In QS, the statement that the people of Haleth 'dwelt to the southward in the woods by Sirion' explains their not being involved in the northern war initially. With our change here, it instead (purportedly) explains why they had little contact with the Easterlings. The thing is, it really doesn't explain that at all, since Brethil is not really any further south than the area in eastern Beleriand where the Easterlings settled. We could probably get away with just changing 'southward' to 'westward'. Also, I think that since this now forms the end of the section instead of leading into the account of the battle in Brethil, we should combine it with the previous sentence:

Quote:
There was small love between the Three Houses and the Swarthy Men; and they met seldom. For the newcomers abode long in East Beleriand; but the people of Hador were shut in Hithlum, and Bëor's house was well nigh destroyed{.}[;] {Yet}and RB-SM-06 {Haleth and his men}<LQ2 the People of Haleth> {remained still free; for they had been at first untouched by the northern war, since they} dwelt to the {southward}[eastward] in the woods by Sirion.
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Old 10-12-2011, 08:22 AM   #78
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At long last I have found the time answer:

§172: I agree that "winning the passes" is the same as "coming into Hithlum" and that therefore it is clear that after "the Orcs won many passes" the "Battle was joined at the very plains of Hithlum", but this redundance is already there in the text of the QS. In QS it is said, that "The Orcs won
many of the passes, and some came even into Mithrim".What gives me pause is the "even" in this sentence. For me at least it suggests a further advance. This also agrees to my interpretation of the geography in which the plains of Hithlum reach fare to the north while Mithrim is the area directly around the lake.
But haveing considering this, I think that my understanding of the movement of Morgoth army has changed. Either Tolkien changed his idea about as well, or he made himself more clear in the GA account. That army of Orcs did not come over the plain of Anfauglith. It did come from the furthest North down the coast and crossed not the passes of Ered Wethrin but that of the coastal mountain range. In view of this I agree to stick completly to the account of GA here.

{Haladin}[Halethrim] as name for the third clan of Dúnedain: I agree with Aiwendil that we should seek a way around the problem Gondowe has brought up. The same is true for the House of Hador in some way. Hador was no longer the leader of that clan when they entered Beleriand (that was Marach) but still he gave the clan its well known name. Thus Tolkien gave us an example how to deal with this situation.

RB-SM-01: Agreed. Very elegant solution.

RB-SM-05: I tend to use GA Version I and mention both Ulfang and Bor in the Footnote. The construct of a sentence in brakets and an added Footnote to it, seems rather blocky in my view.

RB-SM-06: I see your point. And I think you meant {southward}[westward]. But I am not absoulutley happy with that solution.
For one the Easterlings settled in Lothlan and in the Lands south of Maedrons March. Both seemd to be more northern teretories. But I agree that thier is some doubt about it since Ulfang follwed Caranthir, how dwelt upon Amon Ered fare in the south.
For two Hithlum is even further west then Brethil and for the folk of Hador some other reason is mentioned.
The reason that is hinted at by the sentence is that the Halethrim were not in strong alliance with an elvish lord activley searching communication with the Feanorians. The Halethrim had contact to Thingol and Fealgund. Both not very freindly with Maedron of Caranthir. Thus their was no meeting to be expacted between elvish lords of southern Beleriand (Thingol and Felagund) with the Feanorians in which manish followers (Halethrim and Easterlings) would meet as well.
Don't ask me how we should put that into our text. I have to think about that further.

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Old 10-13-2011, 04:47 AM   #79
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RB-SM-06: Maybe we should not do all the thinking for our readers and let them make up their mind by themself. What about this:
Quote:
§152 There was small love between the Three Houses and the Swarthy Men; and they met seldom. For the newcomers abode long in East Beleriand; but the people of Hador were shut in Hithlum, and Bëor's house was well nigh destroyed. Yet RB-SM-06 {Haleth and his men}<LQ2 the People of Haleth> remained still free; for they{ had been at first untouched by the northern war, since they} dwelt to the southward in the woods by Sirion.
As reason why the Dúnedain and the Easterlings did not met the passage gives 'For the newcomers abode long in East Beleriand;' the rest is then a short resumee of the state of affairs of the Dúnedain. Implicit it is clear that all remaining Dúnedain 'dwelt to the westward' which is what is needed for not meeting with the Easterlings.

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Old 10-23-2011, 11:28 AM   #80
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But haveing considering this, I think that my understanding of the movement of Morgoth army has changed. Either Tolkien changed his idea about as well, or he made himself more clear in the GA account. That army of Orcs did not come over the plain of Anfauglith. It did come from the furthest North down the coast and crossed not the passes of Ered Wethrin but that of the coastal mountain range. In view of this I agree to stick completly to the account of GA here.
I think you're right - though I had failed to notice it before, GA does seem to say that besides the forces attacking Barad Eithel from the east, there was another army that 'came down from the north' and fought with Fingon in Hithlum. So we're agreed that we'll use GA for this section.

Quote:
{Haladin}[Halethrim] as name for the third clan of Dúnedain: I agree with Aiwendil that we should seek a way around the problem Gondowe has brought up. The same is true for the House of Hador in some way. Hador was no longer the leader of that clan when they entered Beleriand (that was Marach) but still he gave the clan its well known name. Thus Tolkien gave us an example how to deal with this situation.
It may actually be slightly trickier to deal with than that - Tolkien calls the third house the 'folk of Marach' when they first enter Beleriand, but (unless I'm mistaken) we don't have the name of any leaders of the Halethrim before the Orc-raid. But still, I think this is a very minor problem and one we can deal with when we come to it.

Quote:
RB-SM-05: I tend to use GA Version I and mention both Ulfang and Bor in the Footnote. The construct of a sentence in brakets and an added Footnote to it, seems rather blocky in my view.
Agreed.

RB-SM-06: I suppose that will do.

Are there any outstanding points that I've missed? If not, I think we're done with 'The Ruin of Beleriand'!
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