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Old 03-25-2013, 06:44 PM   #41
Bêthberry
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There were cases of American Civil War veterans taking wives as recently as the 1930's, and the man who owns the company that my father works at is probably ninety years old and has an eight-year-old son. That being said, I don't think that the Istari would have come to Middle-earth with sexual desires. Such desires could become a distraction from their mission, and I don't think that the Valar nor the wizards would have set out without thought for that.
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I guess that would come back to what you were talking about with Bethberry, and with which I agree, as in, by no means would I want to diminish any sexual desires among older people, but generally it probably isn't as common or as strong, and with this I would say that the Wizards were indeed not of "that cathegory" and so their distractions would come from different hobbies, interests, and so on. Especially if you take into account that they were in the position of having an entirely new world to explore, literally.

I think it is probably not too remiss to point out that in the human species there are differences in the development of sexual appetites of the sexes, with women peaking much later than men. In medieval literature (Chaucer comes to mind) the elderly who still pursue sexual appetite are ridiculed, but that is a cultural value rather than normative behaviour.

[must go find something I want to reply to Aganzir now, so will edit this later.]
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Old 07-20-2014, 07:03 AM   #42
denethorthefirst
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I think that there are two forms of incarnation:

A "biological" incarnation, where the ainu actually forms a body that has a complete organ system. This is the form of Incarnation that the Istari, Melian and also the Umaia in orcform (Boldogs) went through. These Ainur actually became human, elvish (or orcish) in form (and dependent on nourishment and sleep), but can now also reproduce with other true incarnates (i dont think that two incarnated ainu could reproduce).
I guess that this form of Incarnation is much more limiting for the innate Power of the Ainu and that Ainur that incarnated in such a way could be much more easily killed than an Ainu that incarnated himself in the other way. It also seems that they did not to do it entirely out of free will: the Istari had to because it was a requirement for their mission, Melian did it out of Love for Thingol and to conceive, and the Boldogs probably because they lacked the Power for mightier Forms or where maybe forced by Melkor in order to procreate with Orcs.

A "unique" (for lack of a better word) incarnation where the ainu creates a wholly new and original form for his spirit that acts more like a "biological machine" than an actual body. It could either lack an organ system, or have an organ system that is much more complex than that of the incarnates or animals. I think the bodies of the Balrogs and the incarnated Sauron where of this kind. If the bodies of the Balrogs were completely "biological" (like for example a human body) they would have burnt to death a long time ago. Ainur like that are probably also much harder to kill, because you cant just stab them in the heart (there might be no heart, or there are three hearts! everything is possible), the opponents actually had to destroy or somehow "break" the "form". They are also less (if at all) dependent on nourishment and sleep. I guess that Ainur that incarnated in such a way were also physically a lot stronger and could better project their innate Power because they (rather voluntary) chose and created a form that completely suited them, but they probably couldn't conceive or impregnate other incarnates because they would not have been "compatible".

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Old 07-20-2014, 07:42 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by denethorthefirst View Post
A "biological" incarnation, where the ainu actually forms a body that has a complete organ system. This is the form of Incarnation that the Istari, Melian and also the Umaia in orcform (Boldogs) went through. These Ainur actually became human, elvish (or orcish) in form (and dependent on nourishment and sleep), but can now also reproduce with other true incarnates (i dont think that two incarnated ainu could reproduce).
I don't know about the ultimate legitimacy of Boldog, since that's HOME stuff, but the incarnations of Melian and the Istari are certainly more bound to the physical world than their Maia brethren.

The Istari, as you say, were housed in actual bodies, which they could not forsake without "dying", as a consequence of the nature of their mission in Middle-earth.
In their case, reproducing with any of the Children of Ilúvatar was not only contrary to their mission, but could also have had serious consequences.

Melian's embodiment was indeed voluntary, and I see it as a parallel with Arwen's later situation with Aragorn.
In order for the immortal Melian to be betrothed to a "lesser" being in Middle-earth, she had to bring herself to Thingol's level, so to speak. She took on basically thelife of the Eldar, though I think it rather unfair that after Thingol's death she was allowed to simply head back to Aman and "dwell on her sorrows".

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I think the bodies of the Balrogs and the incarnated Sauron where of this kind. If the body of the Balrogs were completely "biological" (like a human body) they would have burnt to death a long time ago. Ainur like that are probably also much harder to kill, because you cant just stab them in the heart (there might be no heart, or there are three hearts! everything is possible), the opponents actually had to destroy or somehow "break" the "form". They are also less (if at all) dependent on nourishment and sleep. I guess that Ainur that incarnated in such a way could also better project their innate Power because they chose and created a form that completely suited them, but they probably couldn't conceive because they would not have been "compatible".
I think Sauron's (and the Balrogs') embodiment was required in order to have the maximum effect on the physical world in Middle-earth. . The appearance of their forms seems to be mainly connected with the state of their inner spirit. Sauron, until the destruction of his body in the Fall of Númenor, was able to appear fair and noble. But after he returned to Middle-earth after the Fall, he only looked terrible and evil. His spiritual state had become consumed with hate and a lust for domination, which could have been reflected physically, and maybe too the Valar took steps to deny him the ability to look less threatening, and so make it harder for him to deceive Elves, Men, and Dwarves ever after.
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Old 07-20-2014, 08:04 AM   #44
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I dont think that Melians Incarnation in elvish form was all that voluntary: she was madly in love (goodbye free will and clear thinking) with thingol and incarnated herself for him, and in order to conceive.

Why do you think it unfair that she was allowed back to Valinor, why should the Valar prohibit her return? She didnt do anything evil as far as i know. You could say that she was abandoning Doriath ... but her Husband was now in Valinor (Halls of Mandos) so she was probably torn but ultimately decided to follow Thingol and await his re-embodiment. It is a bit questionable, but i can understand her.

"Sauron, until the destruction of his body in the Fall of Númenor, was able to appear fair and noble. But after he returned to Middle-earth after the Fall, he only looked terrible and evil. His spiritual state had become consumed with hate and a lust for domination, which could have been reflected physically, and maybe too the Valar took steps to deny him the ability to look less threatening, and so make it harder for him to deceive Elves, Men, and Dwarves ever after."

Sauron was chlothed until the destruction of Numenor, he only became incarnate AFTER his beautiful form was destroyed in the downfall. I dont think the Valar had anything to do with the change of his form. Its more like a general law in Ea that the form somehow reflects the spirit, and evil beings, after some point, were no longer able to "mask" their true nature and character.

Of course, some kind of body (or "clothing") for the spirit was necessary in order to manipulate the physical world, thats why most of the Ainur appear "clothed" in order to interact with the incarnates and the world. But i´m speculating about two different forms of incarnation not clothing. I think its obvious that a merely clothed Ainu would not be capable to conceive or impregnate incarnates (wether elves, men or orcs). I guess it could have been possible for Melian to have some kind of sexual intercourse with Thingol while being clothed, but i think she had to be fully incarnated in order to conceive.

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Old 07-20-2014, 11:40 AM   #45
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I dont think that Melians Incarnation in elvish form was all that voluntary: she was madly in love (goodbye free will and clear thinking) with thingol and incarnated herself for him, and in order to conceive.
Well, I wouldn't think she was given no choice in the matter when it came to being with Thingol; only that she was given a mandate that she become truly embodied in oder to do so.

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Why do you think it unfair that she was allowed back to Valinor, why should the Valar prohibit her return? She didnt do anything evil as far as i know. You could say that she was abandoning Doriath ... but her Husband was now in Valinor (Halls of Mandos) so she was probably torn but ultimately decided to follow Thingol and await his re-embodiment. It is a bit questionable, but i can understand her.
I don't know, it just seems like Melian had it all: the bliss of a long term sojourn among the Children in Middle-earth and a simple return to the Undying Lands afterward. She just seems to have had it both ways.
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Old 07-26-2014, 05:21 AM   #46
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1420!

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Sex is, after all, an integral part of marriage.
I take it you've never been married.
Oh dear....

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Melian just seems to have had it both ways.
did Thingol know about this?

I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned that Sauron was Morgoth's mate yet....

(like Morthoron, I'm having a hard time taking this thread seriously)
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