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Old 07-26-2016, 08:36 PM   #1
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White Tree Languages Smaug spoke?

When I was reading The Hobbit, I became curious as to what languages Smaug spoke. Dragons don't seem to have much of a culture or a relationship with other species (a positive one at least), so how did Smaug learn to speak? What language(s) did he speak?

He spoke to Bilbo, and they could understand each other, so what languages did Smaug speak?



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Old 07-26-2016, 08:46 PM   #2
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I don't know that I've ever considered this question before.
Smaug would have used the Common Speech (Westron) with Bilbo, since it was the only language the pre Elf-friend Bilbo would have known.

Smaug could easily have known some Elvish Speech too though, at least some Sindarin. Probably not Khuzdul, though.
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Old 07-26-2016, 09:24 PM   #3
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White Tree Reply to Inziladun

But he must have picked up at least a little Khuzdul, I mean, he single-handedly besieged and conquered a dwarf king's mountain fortress. He might know a word or two at the very least.

Of course, his occupation of the Lonely Mountain lasted maybe eighty years, so either he picked up some Khuzdul, or he just didn't care enough about where he was to.

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Old 07-27-2016, 06:25 AM   #4
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But he must have picked up at least a little Khuzdul, I mean, he single-handedly besieged and conquered a dwarf king's mountain fortress. He might know a word or two at the very least.
Well, killing a lot of Dwarves wouldn't require being able to talk to them.

I said that about Khuzdul because it was such a secretive language, only used by the Dwarves among themselves.
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Old 07-27-2016, 09:11 AM   #5
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Smaug could easily have known some Elvish Speech too though, at least some Sindarin.
I agree. It seems highly probable to me that an old and cunning creature like Smaug would know some Sindarin, given its comparable ubiquity to Westron.

It would be interesting to know if dragons had their own language. What language did the servants of Morgoth speak in the First Age? Presumably it was some corrupted version of Sindarin, Quenya (Morgoth appears to have spoken both of them) or perhaps of the Primitive Quendian spoken by the first Elves to become Orcs. I could imagine the Dragons of the North retaining vestiges of such language, as they appear to have been long-lived.
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Old 07-27-2016, 09:39 AM   #6
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It would be interesting to know if dragons had their own language. What language did the servants of Morgoth speak in the First Age? Presumably it was some corrupted version of Sindarin, Quenya (Morgoth appears to have spoken both of them) or perhaps of the Primitive Quendian spoken by the first Elves to become Orcs. I could imagine the Dragons of the North retaining vestiges of such language, as they appear to have been long-lived.
Aside from Sauron's relatively unsuccessful Black Speech, I can't recall an instance of the forces of evil in Arda acquiring a unique language.
I would agree that Morgoth probably would have used some debased Quenya or Sindarin for speech among his minions.
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Old 07-27-2016, 10:36 AM   #7
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But weren't at least some dragons bred by Morgoth and Sauron? Because Dark Tongue could apply here if that's so.
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Old 07-27-2016, 11:05 AM   #8
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But weren't at least some dragons bred by Morgoth and Sauron? Because Dark Tongue could apply here if that's so.
Dragons originated from Morgoth. It was Sauron who devised the Black Speech, and I know of no indication of Sauron 'producing' any dragons.

It was said the Black Speech wasn't very widespread anyway, by the time of the Third Age only remembered by the Nazgûl.
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Old 07-27-2016, 02:10 PM   #9
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Tolkien wrote that the Orcs of Mordor spoke a "debased" Version of the black speech (the real-world equivalent would probably be the difference between classical latin and vulgar latin). For all we know even during the time of the war of the ring the black speech was still the official language of Mordor and in extensive use throughout the country (at least among the bureaucracy and the administration of the country).

As to the Dragons: they are portrayed as highly intelligent and long-lived so i would guess that they are able to learn and master several languages. The mother tongue of them is probably the one that was spoken among the higher ups in Angband when Morgoth created the Dragons (some twisted version of Valarin maybe?).

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Old 07-27-2016, 02:19 PM   #10
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For all we know even during the time of the war of the ring the black speech was still the official language of Mordor and in extensive use throughout the country (at least among the bureaucracy and the administration of the country).
Though the Black Speech may have been the 'official' language of Mordor in Sauron's mind (after all, the Ring inscription was written in it), it doesn't seem to have worked out that way in practice.

I don't have my books handy, but I think there's a passage in the ROTK Appendices that discusses the Black Speech and its relative obscurity in the Third Age. I do seem to recall a passage stating that only the Nazgûl really remembered it by the time of the War of the Ring.
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Old 07-27-2016, 02:23 PM   #11
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White Tree In reply

I was thinking Maiar instead of Valar. Maiar would be easier to corrupt.
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Old 07-27-2016, 04:08 PM   #12
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Working from memory, I believe that the Black Speech was developed by Sauron, so it is unlikely that dragons used that language. We can only speculate about what Morgoth's minions spoke during the First Age, but it was likely some form of Elvish.
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Old 07-27-2016, 06:12 PM   #13
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I believe Smaug spoke Esperanto with a Portmanteau accent. Prior to his 3rd Age refinement, he spoke in a Créole Pidgin. Perhaps even Brobdingnagian.
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Old 07-27-2016, 07:24 PM   #14
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I believe Smaug spoke Esperanto with a Portmanteau accent. Prior to his 3rd Age refinement, he spoke in a Créole Pidgin. Perhaps even Brobdingnagian.
I think he spoke like this. Perfect Smaug.

On an unrelated note, I have little doubt some words of Black Speech continue to emerge in our language today.
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Old 07-27-2016, 09:35 PM   #15
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The Black Speech was devised "in the Dark Years" (Appendix F), thus in the Second Age, so it doesn't really have much to do with the original breeding of Dragons, which took place in the First Age.
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I don't have my books handy, but I think there's a passage in the ROTK Appendices that discusses the Black Speech and its relative obscurity in the Third Age. I do seem to recall a passage stating that only the Nazgûl really remembered it by the time of the War of the Ring.
Quite right. This is what is said:
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It is said that the Black Speech was devised by Sauron in the Dark Years, and that he bad desired to make it the language of all those that served him, but he failed in that purpose. From the Black Speech, however, were derived many of the words that were in the Third Age wide-spread among the Orcs, such as ghâsh 'fire', but after the first overthrow of Sauron this language in its ancient form was forgotten by all but the Nazgûl.
I think some people are getting a bit confused. There's probably a good chance Sauron helped Morgoth to breed the dragons in the First Age, because he "was often able to achieve things, first conceived by Melkor, which his master did not or could not complete in the furious haste of his malice." (Morgoth's Ring) That, however, has nothing to do with the devising of the Black Speech, which occurred in the Second Age, long after any possible dragon-breeding days of Sauron's.

At least, that's how it seems to my mind. I don't recall any evidence of Sauron having anything further to do with dragons after the First Age apart from a possible alliance with Smaug which never came to fruition. To be fair, there is some evidence in "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" that in the Second Age Sauron "gathered again under his government all the evil things of the days of Morgoth that remained on earth or beneath it" so I suppose it's possible he had under his command such dragons as survived the War of Wrath, although I do not believe we have any direct evidence of this. The fact that they went on to breed in the North beyond the Grey Mountains, far from Mordor, suggests that if any dragons did obey Sauron in the Second Age their allegiance was quite limited. It in fact suggests to me that Sauron did not command Dragons; it seems more probable that they never left their ancestral habitations in the North but rather bided their time, which would explain their prominence in the First and Third Ages, but not the Second.
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Old 07-28-2016, 05:50 AM   #16
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I agree. It seems highly probable to me that an old and cunning creature like Smaug would know some Sindarin, given its comparable ubiquity to Westron.

It would be interesting to know if dragons had their own language. What language did the servants of Morgoth speak in the First Age? Presumably it was some corrupted version of Sindarin, Quenya (Morgoth appears to have spoken both of them) or perhaps of the Primitive Quendian spoken by the first Elves to become Orcs. I could imagine the Dragons of the North retaining vestiges of such language, as they appear to have been long-lived.
I thought that Sauron contrived the Black Speech during the First Age (The First Age was what I thought was referred to as the "Dark Years").

I know that many of the Middle-earth Wikias refer to the "Dark Years" as the Second Age, based upon a few Comments of Tolkien regarding the "Men of Darkness" and the "Dark Days" of the rule of Sauron.

But I think that rather a subjective interpretation. I will need to dig out the Peoples of Middle-earth to go over it, and have another look through Morgoth's Ring to see if there is an explicit statement of some sort.

I would think that the period during which Satan Himself ruled in Middle-earth would be considerably "Darker" than a period when his lieutenant was left to meddle in the world.

I know that the Wikis like Tolkien Gateway refer to the "Dark Years" as the Second Age because of an analogy to the "Dark Ages" after the Fall of the Roman Empire as being isomorphic to the Fall of the Elven Kingdoms of the First Age. But I think that might be a stretch without an explicit statement of some sort (which could well exist).

Would that not have been the language that was used by those servants of Morgoth at that time when still largely unified?

And we know that during the first Age Glaurung spoke to both Elves and Túrin in Sindarin (which was the "Common Tongue" of Beleriand in the First Age).

It could also be that Tolkien intended the Dragons to have their own form of Speech, a Draconic-Tongue used solely among themselves.

Also, is it not the case that the Dragons (at least Glaurung) had some form of ability to read the minds of others?

Would this not give them a facility with languages (even Khuzdul)?

MB

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Old 07-28-2016, 06:12 AM   #17
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I think some people are getting a bit confused. There's probably a good chance Sauron helped Morgoth to breed the dragons in the First Age, because he "was often able to achieve things, first conceived by Melkor, which his master did not or could not complete in the furious haste of his malice." (Morgoth's Ring) That, however, has nothing to do with the devising of the Black Speech, which occurred in the Second Age, long after any possible dragon-breeding days of Sauron's.
I also got the impression from this that Sauron was the "Enforcer" and "Major Domo" of Morgoth.

Morgoth was sort of the Chairman of the Board, while Sauron was the CEO and COO; the guy who actually did things.


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At least, that's how it seems to my mind. I don't recall any evidence of Sauron having anything further to do with dragons after the First Age apart from a possible alliance with Smaug which never came to fruition. To be fair, there is some evidence in "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" that in the Second Age Sauron "gathered again under his government all the evil things of the days of Morgoth that remained on earth or beneath it" so I suppose it's possible he had under his command such dragons as survived the War of Wrath, although I do not believe we have any direct evidence of this. The fact that they went on to breed in the North beyond the Grey Mountains, far from Mordor, suggests that if any dragons did obey Sauron in the Second Age their allegiance was quite limited. It in fact suggests to me that Sauron did not command Dragons; it seems more probable that they never left their ancestral habitations in the North but rather bided their time, which would explain their prominence in the First and Third Ages, but not the Second.
Or, it could be that Sauron specifically instructed, or left them in the North as the most effective means of establishing a Base of Power in that region, while Sauron's Base of Power remained further in the South, nearer to the Númenórean Dominions in Middle-earth (and to where he needed the Power of the Earth itself to forge the One Ring.

Again, that is just speculation, and it could be that the Dragons just paid Lip-Service to his Dominion, while keeping to themselves.

The Dragons are a difficult Metaphysical Element of Middle-earth, as they suggest Embodied Consciousness, something that only existed in either the Ainur or the Children of Ilúvatar.

If the Dragons were a breeding of Maiar with Reptilian, Chimeric Monsters (Dinosaurs - or other Raptors, crossed with Lions, Alligators, Snakes, and Bats/Birds), then this could account for their respectable power and intellect.

But it could also make them co-evals of Sauron and the Balrogs.

It is an interesting area of speculation for which there is not a lot upon which to form any objective foundation of any solidity as yet.

MB
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Old 07-28-2016, 06:50 AM   #18
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I thought that Sauron contrived the Black Speech during the First Age (The First Age was what I thought was referred to as the "Dark Years").
The Dark Years appear to refer to the period in the Second Age in which the Dúnedain were absent from Middle-earth. For instance, Appendix B:
Quote:
The Second Age
These were the dark years for Men of Middle-earth, but the years of the glory of Númenor. Of events in Middle-earth the records are few and brief, and their dates are often uncertain.
Also, in Appendix A:
Quote:
After the end of the First Age the power and wealth of Khazad-dûm was much increased; for it was enriched by many people and much lore and craft when the ancient cities of Nogrod and Belegost in the Blue Mountains were ruined at the breaking of Thangorodrim. The power of Moria endured throughout the Dark Years and the dominion of Sauron, for though Eregion was destroyed and the gates of Moria were shut, the halls of Khazad-dûm were too deep and strong and filled with a people too numerous and valiant for Sauron to conquer from without. (Appendix A)
This heavily implies that the Dark Years were after the First Age.

"Akallabêth" also states that the Dark Years were in the Second Age:
Quote:
the Dúnedain came at times to the shores of the Great Lands, and they took pity on the forsaken world of Middle-earth; and the Lords of Númenor set foot again upon the western shores in the Dark Years of Men, and none yet dared to withstand them.
My understanding of the nature of the "Dark Years" is not based on any argument in any Tolkien wiki. I have never even heard of these "like the Dark Ages after the fall of Rome" arguments before; whoever came up with that theory does not seem to have considered the real evidence that already exists. The evidence suggests that the Dark Years were a time specifically relevant to Men, when the Dúnedain were in Númenor and Men were falling under the influence of Sauron. It seems to be related to this statement from "Akallabêth":
Quote:
Thus the years passed, and while Middle-earth went backward and light and wisdom faded, the Dúnedain dwelt under the protection of the Valar and in the friendship of the Eldar, and they increased in stature both of mind and body.
To be fair, I previously thought that the "Dark Years" was simply another name for the time of Sauron's dominion in Middle-earth, but it appears that they were not exactly the same thing, although they did coincide to an extent.
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I would think that the period during which Satan Himself ruled in Middle-earth would be considerably "Darker" than a period when his lieutenant was left to meddle in the world.
Maybe so, but it seems that for the majority of Morgoth's latter reign in Middle-earth (after he escaped from Valinor) things were not so dark in much of Middle-earth, as is expressed in "Of Dwarves and Men" in regards to the fortunes of the Dwarves of Khazad-dûm in the First Age:
Quote:
they were under attack from the Orks of Morgoth. During the War of the Jewels and the Siege of Angband, when Morgoth needed all his strength, these attacks ceased; but when Morgoth fell and Angband was destroyed hosts of the Orks fled eastwards seeking homes.
Of course things were dark for Men in the First Age, what with the corruption of Hildórien and all, but the "Dark Years" seem specifically to refer to this period of the Second Age in which the Men of Middle-earth were "left in the dark" due to the absence of the Dúnedain, lack of relations with the Noldor and Sindar, and the growing power of Sauron.

Getting back on topic, has anyone considered the possibility that Smaug spoke the tongue of Dale? His name, after all, seems to have come from this Dale-language. This is mentioned in The Peoples of Middle-earth:
Quote:
Smaug, the Dragon's name, is a representation in similar terms, in this case of a more Scandinavian character, of the Dale name Trāgu, which was probably related to the trah- stem in the Mark and Shire.
Interestingly, in that same volume, in "Notes on an unpublished letter" from 1943 Professor Tolkien is discussing Westron, and he states:
Quote:
In Bilbo's time there was a language very widely used all over the West (the Western parts of the Great Lands of those days). It was a sort of lingua-franca, made up of all sorts of languages, but the Elvish language (of the North West) for the most part. It was called the Western language or Common Speech; and in Bilbo's time had already passed eastward over the Misty Mountains and reached Lake Town, and Beorn, and even Smaug (dragons were ready linguists in all ages)....
Thus perhaps we ought not to be too restrictive when we speculate upon any language a dragon might speak.
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