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Old 01-13-2002, 10:21 PM   #81
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Old 01-16-2002, 09:40 PM   #82
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I was not offended at all, Lindil, by your post about the difficulties, as I feel some of the same frustrations.

Yet at the time I was also getting somewhat fatigued with these matters, and so took a breather which turned out to be longer than I expected.

Sometimes such a breather lets obviously right answers emerge from the confusion. In these cases I don't think so, other than that I've increased possible treatments of the Balrogs and have posted my newer ideas in the Balrog thread.

I think I am really coming to hate Balrogs!

Aiwendil, you are quite welcome to go ahead with the missing Gondolin section if you wish.

One disappointment for me with this project is the small number of people willing to actually do the work, rather than simply criticize. Those people are needed also, desperately, and since this is supposedly a project being done for the fun of it there is no reason why anyone should be here from any sense of duty.

But I would like to see more involved as I'm not sure general voters will understand the full issues of votes or care.

If I were not so fully involved myself I certainly wouldn't care, and probably would not want to understand fully!
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Old 01-17-2002, 10:28 AM   #83
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I hear you! Indeed, it seems that though many are willing or eager to help, few really know where to start or how to help. Probably we are somewhat restricted simply by the number of people that have read or have access to all twelve HoMe books. Frankly, I'm surprised that the Balrog discussion hasn't had a larger number of participants - I've seen it discussed on other boards, but apparently few are willing to venture into this barrow.

Well for myself, I'm content to allow the project to creep along as it is. I imagine that we'll have a good deal less trouble with most of the other sections (aside from the dreaded Ruin of Doriath).

I now wonder about the validity of a poll. It would of course be best if we could simply reach a concensus (which has actually happened with certain small questions.)
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Old 01-25-2002, 10:07 AM   #84
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Aiwendil, I just came across a section in WotJ which may prove useful in the 'transition 'section' posted July 23, 01-

It is rather long and I am [blissfully ]at a public terminal so have no easy way of getting it up - so I will just give the reference.
WotJ p.200 top
- It is I suppose the last description of Gondolin written and may be of use - It may all be in the QS77 but it seems richer than I recall.

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Old 10-09-2002, 07:10 AM   #85
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just upping the relevant threads for the project.

now closed please see [for more or less the continuation ]:
'Revised Fall of Gondolin'
and it's spin off threads.
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Old 02-07-2013, 09:34 PM   #86
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I'm re-opening this thread (closed in 2002!) for discussion of revisions to the text of this chapter.

First of all, I should say that I half suspect that I'm working from an old copy of the text, as it seems to have a lot of errors in it. If I am, that should become clear from what follows. These notes were made a few years ago, but I've glanced over them again and reminded myself what the various issues were.

• Horns of Ulmo - I thought this was dropped when the revisions to the opening were deemed too risky. (Revised Fall of Gondolin part 5 thread). In any case, I am against its inclusion in its current form, with the transition accomplished by:

Quote:
FG-HY-02 Inland musics subtly magic that those reeds alone could weave −
{It was in}[In] the Land of Willows {that}[I recall that] once {Ylmir}[Ulmo] came at eve.
It seems altogether too sudden and unrelated to what has gone before. (I do actually think it would be nice to include the poem, but I seem to recall that others felt it should be omitted).

• A moot point if we drop the poem, but for line 63 it appears that the correction of ‘Gods’ to ‘Lords’ has been made, something I think we simply missed the first time around. However, I think a better emendation would be:

Quote:
When the world reeled in the tumult as the FG-HY-02.7 {Great Gods}[Valar] tore the Earth
(I do actually like this poem quite a bit, and all else being equal, I would like to include it, if we can convince ourselves that the necessary revisions are justified).


FG-B-04:
Quote:
Fearful too they were for that FG-B-04 {slaughter}[tremendous fight that] Rog had done amid the Balrogs, because of those demons they had great courage and confidence of heart.
As far as I can tell at the last discussion of this (Balrogs thread, page 2) we had decided on:

Quote:
Fearful too they were for that slaughter Rog had done amid the Balrogs, because of those demons they had great courage and confidence of heart.
. . . with the reasoning that we don’t specify whether Rog is slaughtering Balrogs, one Balrog, or something else merely ‘amid’ the Balrogs. In any case we cannot use ‘tremendous fight that’.

Quote:
Then said Rog in a great voice: ‘Who now shall fear the Balrogs for all their terror? See before us the accursed ones who for {ages}[centuries] have tormented the children of the {Noldoli}[Noldor], and who now set a fire at our backs with their shooting.
This one wasn’t discussed, though it is worth thinking about. But in the Lost Tales, wasn’t the time-frame for the Noldor in Beleriand actually shorter than in the later versions? In which case, if ‘ages’ was acceptable there, it ought to be acceptable here.

FG-C-24
Quote:
FG-C-24 {Now the folk that had passed into the Eagles' Cleft and who saw the fall of Glorfindel had been nigh eight hundreds − a large wayfaring, yet was it a sad remnant of so fair and numerous a city.} But they who arose from the grasses of the Land of Willows {in years after} and fared away to sea, {when spring set celandine in the meads and they had held sad festival in memorial of Glorfindel,} these numbered but three hundreds and a score of men and man-children, and two hundreds and three score of women and maid-children.’
Findegil points out that the dwindling from 800 to 580 may depend on the longer period of their wandering found in the Lost Tales. But is it really not possible that a fair portion of the company (many of whom were already wounded) died in the shorter period of wandering in the dangerous lands north of the Crissaegrim?

FG-T-23: I think this can be made to read better by moving one of our additions slightly:

Quote:
FG-T-23 Then Turgon [K]ing of Gondolin[,] <TO tallest of all the Children of the World, save Thingol[,]> robed in white with a belt of gold, and a coronet of garnets was upon his head, <TO {with a}[and at his side] a white and gold sword in a ruel-bone sheath[,]> stood before his doors and spake from the head of the white stairs that led thereto.
FG-T-24: I am no longer convinced that Ulmo's counsel of attack on Angband was dropped. It’s still present in Q30, which is the latest account of Tuor's meeting with Turgon that we have. I can find no contradiction with it in the later 'Tuor' or anywhere else. And consider the late Tale of Years:

Quote:
Ulmo sends a last warning to Gondolin, which now alone is left; but Turgon will have no alliance with any after the kinslaying of Doriath.
Now, this last warning of Ulmo is undoubtedly a projected change that we cannot implement, but the suggestion is that Ulmo recommends (and has been recommending) an ‘alliance’, which suggests that the earlier version of his counsel was retained.

Also here: ‘makest’ is a mistake for ‘makes’, but actually I don’t think this should be changed from ‘maketh’ at all.

FG-D-02: I thought that we had decided not to make these changes (see the "Mechanical Dragons" thread, where, just to make things maximally confusing, this is FG-D-01). In any case, I am still against them.

FG-B-01:
Quote:
and iron and stone melted before them and became as water and {upon}[with] them {rode}[moved the] Balrogs FG-B-01 {in hundreds}
The 'rode' > 'moved the' appears to have been a silent normalization that was not discussed. But it is awkwardly phrased; better would be:

Quote:
and iron and stone melted before them and became as water and {upon}[with] them {rode}[went] Balrogs FG-B-01 {in hundreds}
FG-D-04: Here again are stylistic changes regarding mechanical dragons that I thought we had dropped.

• ‘Legolas Greenleaf’ changed to ‘Laegolas’. Why drop the ‘Greenleaf’?

FG-D-29:
Quote:
{fire drakes}[drakes of fire]
The purpose of this change escapes me completely. Fire drakes are drakes of fire. This should definitely be dropped.

FG-C-03:
‘Great is the fall of the Hidden Rock’ - I thought we had decided against using this.

FG-C-25: This sentence is very awkward with the names of the cities removed. Perhaps we should delete the sentence entirely.

• Last sentence: ‘Isle of Sirion’ - does not that now suggest Tol Sirion? Perhaps change it to ‘at the mouths of Sirion’.
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Old 02-08-2013, 10:42 AM   #87
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Posted by Aiwendil:
Quote:
First of all, I should say that I half suspect that I'm working from an old copy of the text, as it seems to have a lot of errors in it. If I am, that should become clear from what follows.
I did find all quotations you made exactly in the same way in my most recent document, so I think you are working from the right text. If with errors you are speaking of typos it could be that some of them were corrected either silently by myself or by Meadhros in post #49 in the Thread: * * Revised Fall of Gondolin pt.5 -- >end [the remaining sections] * *. Anyway looking into the privat forum, I did't find a text of this chapter posted by me. It is given section wise by Meadhros, but in an rather outdated version. And we have Antoine's allerts of texts and there later removal. I will post a actual version, once we are finished with our discussion here.

By the way: In the thread 'Tuor/Gondolin/Text' some of your points are already mentioned by Tar-Elenion, Maedhros, yourself, Aiwendil and me. I think that your text must be one provide by me, because of the {ages}[centuries] issue. So I have to say, it might be that I missed some points of that hidden discussion in the private forum while prepaering the text. I will go through them now and see what is not yet corrected.

FG-C-22 The Horns of Ulmo:
In your version as in my one the poem stands as it was left behind after the discussion stoped. But it seems I (or Antione, if he made the final text) didn't take it out as was the last result of the discussion.
Anyhow I have a fiant rememberens of farther discussions on the poem, but I can't find them. In addition it seems to me that all three of us would have liked to include the poem. We just couldn't find a solution for the neccessary switch from present in Nan-Thathren to the past at Neverast. Probably we should try again.

FG-HY-02.1: Agreed.

Fg-B-04: The reason I remember for this change was that 'slaughter Rog had done amid the Balrogs' suggeste heavily that Rog and his men killed Balrogs. But techincaly your point is right and I am willing to leave that change out.

{ages}[centuries]: This is my change, not discussed but given in the thread 'Tuor/Gondolin/Text'. Yes we are probably correcting an internal error of the LT-text here. And since it is a charachter speaking not the external author we might let this stand as it is. Even so the reverenc to 'children of the Noldor' is now a bit misleading since Rog must mean the Elves of the second tribe captured before the fall of Utumno, which are technical speaking are no Noldor.

FG-C-24: I asked the same question with out any answer, but didn't put it right in the text as it seems. I correct it now.

FG-T-23: Agreed

FG-T-24: You are storming open doors! I was never confinced that the counsel of Ulmo was changed. I prupose we take up some parts of the Q30 passage and hold more of the LT version as well:
Quote:
FG-T-24 Then spake Tuor, and Ulmo set power in his heart and majesty in his voice. ‘Behold, O father of the City of Stone, I am bidden by him who maketh deep music in the Abyss, and who knoweth the mind of Elves and Men, to say unto thee that the days of Release draw nigh. There have come to the ears of Ulmo whispers of your dwelling and your hill of vigilance against the evil of {Melko}[Morgoth], and he is glad: but his heart is wroth and the hearts of the Valar are angered who sit in the mountains of Valinor and look upon the world from the peak of Taniquetil, seeing the sorrow of the thraldom of the {Noldoli}[Elves] and the wanderings of Men; for {Melko}[Morgoth] ringeth them in the Land of Shadows beyond hills of iron. Therefore have I been brought by a secret way to bid you number your hosts and prepare for battle, for the time is ripe.’ <Q30 {and}And he bade Turgon to send again his messengers into the West. Summons too should he send into the East and gather, if he might, Men (who were now multiplying and spreading on the earth) unto his banners; and for that task Tuor was most fit. 'Forget,' counselled Ulmo, 'the treachery of Uldor the accursed, and remember Hurin; for without mortal Men the Elves shall not prevail against the Balrogs and the Orcs.' Nor should the feud with the sons of Feanor be left unhealed; for this should be the last gathering of the hope of the {Gnomes}[Noldor], when every sword should count.> Thus <Q30 Tuor spoke the embassy of Ulmo <TO in the hearing of all>, and something of the power and majesty of the Lord of Waters his voice had caught, so that all folk looked in wonder on him, and doubted that this were a Man of mortal race as he declared.>
FG-T-25 Then spake Turgon: ‘That will I not do, though it be the words of Ulmo and all the Valar. I will not adventure this my people against the terror of the Orcs, nor emperil my city against the fire of {Melko}[Morgoth].’
Then spake Tuor: ‘Nay, if thou dost not now dare greatly then will the Orcs dwell for ever and possess in the end most of the mountains of the Earth, and cease not to trouble both Elves and Men, even though by other means the Valar contrive hereafter to release the {Noldoli}[Noldor]; but if thou trust now to the Valar, though terrible the encounter, then shall the Orcs fall, and {Melko}[Morgoth]'s power be minished to a little thing.’ <Q30 {and}And he foretold the healing of feuds, and friendship between Men and Elves, whereof the greatest good should come into the world, and the servants of Morgoth trouble it no more.>
But Turgon said that he was king of Gondolin and no will should force him against his counsel to emperil the dear labour of long ages gone; but Tuor said, for thus was he bidden by Ulmo who had feared the reluctance of Turgon: ‘Then am I bidden to say that men of the {Gondothlim}[Gondolindrim] repair swiftly and secretly down the river Sirion to the sea, and there build them boats and go seek back to Valinor: lo! the paths thereto are forgotten and the highways faded from the world, and the seas and mountains are about it, yet still dwell there the Elves on the hill of {Kôr}[Tuna] and the {Gods}[Valar] sit in Valinor, though their mirth is minished for sorrow and fear of {Melko}[Morgoth], and they hide their land and weave about it inaccessible magic that no evil come to its shores. Yet still might thy messengers win there and turn their hearts that they rise in wrath and smite {Melko}[Morgoth], and destroy the Hells of Iron that he has wrought beneath the Mountains of Darkness.’ <QS77 And he gave warning to Turgon that the Curse of Mandos now hastened to its fulfilment, when all the works of the Noldor should perish;> <TO {Ulmo's cloak would vanish when Tuor spoke the message to Turgon}[and when he had spoken, the cloak of Ulmo vanished.]>
<QS77 Then Turgon pondered long the counsel of Ulmo, and there came into his mind the words that were spoken to him in Vinyamar: 'Love not too well the work of thy hands and the devices of thy heart; and remember that the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West, and cometh from the Sea.' But Turgon was become proud, and Gondolin as beautiful as a memory of Elven Tirion, and he trusted still in its secret and impregnable strength, though even a Vala should gainsay it; and after the Nirnaeth Arnoediad the people of that city desired never again to mingle in the woes of Elves and Men without, nor to return through dread and danger into the West. Shut behind their pathless and enchanted hills they suffered none to enter, though he fled from Morgoth hate-pursued; and tidings of the lands beyond came to them faint and far, and they heeded them little. The spies of Angband sought for them in vain; and their dwelling was as a rumour, and secret that none could find.>
Then said Turgon: ‘Every year at the lifting of winter have messengers repaired swiftly and by stealth down the river FG-T-26 {that is called} Sirion to the coasts of the Great Sea, and there builded them boats whereto have swans and gulls been harnessed or the strong wings of the wind, and these have sought back beyond the moon and sun to Valinor; but the paths thereto are forgotten and the highways faded from the world, and the seas and mountains are about it, and they that sit within in mirth reck little of the dread of {Melko}[Morgoth] or the sorrow of the world, but hide their land and weave about it inaccessible magic, that no tidings of evil come ever to their ears. Nay, enough of my people have for years untold gone out to the wide waters never to return, but have perished in the deep places or wander now lost in the shadows that have no paths; and at the coming of next year no more shall fare to the sea, but rather will we trust to ourselves and our city for the warding off of {Melko}[Morgoth]; and thereto have the Valar been of scant help aforetime.’

Then Tuor's heart was heavy, and Voronwë wept; and Tuor sat by the great fountain of the king and its splashing recalled the music of the waves, and his soul was troubled by the conches of Ulmo and he would return down the waters of Sirion to the sea. But Turgon, who knew that Tuor, mortal as he was, had the favour of the Valar, marking his stout glance and the power of his voice sent to him and bade him dwell in Gondolin and be in his favour, and abide even within the royal halls if he would, FG-TG-01 <GA for Tuor was held in honour, for his kindreds sake>.
Then Tuor, for he was weary, and that place was fair, said yea; and hence cometh the abiding of Tuor in Gondolin. FG-TG-01.5 <Sil77
But in the warning of Ulmo Turgon heard again the words that were spoken before the departing Noldor on the coast of Araman long ago; and the fear of treason was wakened in Turgon's heart. Therefore in that time the very entrance to the hidden door in the Encircling Mountains was caused to be blocked up; and thereafter none went ever forth from Gondolin on any errand of peace or war, while that city stood.

>Of all Tuor's deeds among ...
FG-D-02: Agreed.

FG-B-01: Agreed.

FG-D-04, FG-D-29: The first was a change that I proposed. Both were for the sake of clearity. I repeat two of my comments from the 'Mechanical Monsters Thread':
Quote:
But may be we must prepare the read for the task we impose on him (to interpret the dragon types while reading). In the creation scene there is no mention of the later "name" "dragons of fire", with which they were mostly addressed in the text, but that could be easily amended:
Quote:
The very faint distinguish between type 3 [streams of fire] and type 4 [animal dragons] that I could find was that I interpreted any "fire dragon", "fire-dragon", "fire drake" and "fire-drake" as type 4. and any serpents/dragon/stream or what ever of fire/flame as type 3.
FG-D-04 you did not gainsay back then when we discussed the matter and FG-D-29 did even find your hestatingly given support.
Quote:
Fire drakes are drakes of fire.
That is not true, if you look back at the discussion. At least FG-D-29 is needed, in my oppinion.

'{Legolas}[Laegols] Greenleaf' is okay for me.

FG-C-03: I couldn't find any discussion of this save the posting #1 of Lindil in the thread '* * Revised Fall of Gondolin pt.5 -- >end [the remaining sections] * *'. In this he gives to options. But none of them are very convincing for me. The text as it stand is his option 1. But it is based on his fan-fiction. Option 2 would read:
Quote:
Then said the king: FG-C-03 KO 'Great is the fall of Gondolin'{, and men shuddered, for such were the words of Annon the prophet of old}; but Tuor speaking wildly ...
I would amend this to:
Quote:
Then said the king: FG-C-03 KO 'Great is the fall of Gondolin', and men shuddered, for such were the words of {Annon the prophet of old}<Sil77 the Prophecy of the North>; but Tuor speaking wildly ...
FG-C-26, last sentence: Yes, 'Isle of Sirion' does suggest Tol Sirion in the groge of Sirion far to the north. But 'mouth of Sirion' does not transport the full meaning. What about: 'Ilse <editorial addition in the delta of> Sirion' or we could use 'grows at the delta of Sirion' it would tarnsport the clear meaning of 'Ilse' in TE.

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Old 02-09-2013, 05:27 AM   #88
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With this text (the first I worked), I have to strengthen remembering my decisions at work, so I can be mistaken, but to put my opinions on the table, I started with this:


Quote:
FG-T-24 Then spake Tuor, and Ulmo set power in his heart and majesty in his voice. ‘Behold, O father of the City of Stone, I am bidden by him who maketh deep music in the Abyss, and who knoweth the mind of Elves and Men, to say unto thee that the days of Release draw nigh. There have come to the ears of Ulmo whispers of your dwelling and your hill of vigilance against the evil of {Melko}[Morgoth], and he is glad: but his heart is wroth and the hearts of the Valar are angered who sit in the mountains of Valinor and look upon the world from the peak of Taniquetil, seeing the sorrow of the thraldom of the {Noldoli}[Elves] and the wanderings of Men; for {Melko}[Morgoth] ringeth them in the Land of Shadows beyond hills of iron. Therefore have I been brought by a secret way to bid you number your hosts and prepare for battle, for the time is ripe.’ <Q30 {and}And he bade Turgon to send again his messengers into the West. Summons too should he send into the East and gather, if he might, Men (who were now multiplying and spreading on the earth) unto his banners; and for that task Tuor was most fit. 'Forget,' counselled Ulmo, 'the treachery of Uldor the accursed, and remember Hurin; for without mortal Men the Elves shall not prevail against the Balrogs and the Orcs.' Nor should the feud with the sons of Feanor be left unhealed; for this should be the last gathering of the hope of the {Gnomes}[Noldor], when every sword should count.> Thus <Q30 Tuor spoke the embassy of Ulmo <TO in the hearing of all>, and something of the power and majesty of the Lord of Waters his voice had caught, so that all folk looked in wonder on him, and doubted that this were a Man of mortal race as he declared.>
I think that the LT text must be eliminated because Ulmo always knew where Gondolin was, he show the valley to Turgon.

And doubt the Doom of Mandos the only thing the Noldor could do was to fly, not go to war against Morgoth.

Remembering the words Ulmo have been speech Turgon in Vinyamar '...that the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West and cometh from the Sea.'

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Last edited by gondowe; 02-09-2013 at 05:32 AM.
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Old 02-10-2013, 04:41 PM   #89
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Posted by Gondowe:
Quote:
I think that the LT text must be eliminated because Ulmo always knew where Gondolin was, he show the valley to Turgon.
You are right and I probably over did it. We must at least edit it a bit more.

We should also look back what Ulmo said to Tour at Vinyamar:
Quote:
‘Then I will set words in thy mouth to say unto Turgon,’ said Ulmo. ‘But first I will teach thee, and some things thou shall hear which no Man else hath heard, nay, not even the mighty among the Eldar.’ And Ulmo spoke to Tuor of Valinor and its darkening, and the Exile of the Noldor, and the Doom of Mandos, and the hiding of the Blessed Realm. ‘But behold!’ said he, ‘in the armour of Fate (as the Children of Earth name it) there is ever a rift, and in the walls of Doom a breach, until the full-making, which ye call the End. So it shall be while I endure, a secret voice that gainsayeth, and a light where darkness was decreed. Therefore, though in the days of this darkness I seem to oppose the will of my brethren, the Lords of the West, that is my part among them, to which I was appointed ere the making of the World. Yet Doom is strong, and the shadow of the Enemy lengthens; and I am diminished, until in Middle-earth I am become now no more than a secret whisper. The waters that run westward wither, and their springs are poisoned, and my power withdraws from the land; for Elves and Men grow blind and deaf to me because of the might of Melkor. And now the Curse of Mandos hastens to its fulfilment, and all the works of the Noldor shall perish, and every hope which they build shall crumble. The last hope alone is left, the hope that they have not looked for and have not prepared. And that hope lieth in thee; for so I have chosen.’
‘Then shall Turgon not stand against Morgoth, as all the Eldar yet hope?’ said Tuor. ‘And what wouldst thou of me, Lord, if I come now to Turgon? For though I am indeed willing to do as my father and stand by that king in his need, yet of little avail shall I be, a mortal man alone, among so many and so valiant of the High Folk of the West.‘
‘If I choose to send thee, Tuor son of Huor, then believe not that thy one sword is not worth the sending. For the valour of the Edain the Elves shall ever remember as the ages lengthen, marvelling that they gave life so freely of which they had on earth so little. But it is not for thy valour only that I send thee, but to bring into the world a hope beyond thy sight, and a light that shall pierce the darkness.’
And as Ulmo said these things the mutter of the storm rose to a great cry, and the wind mounted, and the sky grew black; and the mantle of the Lord of Waters streamed out like a flying cloud. ‘Go now,’ said Ulmo, ‘lest the Sea devour thee! For Ossë obeys the will of Mandos, and he is wroth, being a servant of the Doom.’
‘As thou commandest,’ said Tuor. ‘But if I escape the Doom, what words shall I say unto Turgon?’
‘If thou come to him,’ answered Ulmo, ‘then the words shall arise in thy mind, and thy mouth shall speak as I would. Speak and fear not! And thereafter do as thy heart and valour lead thee. Hold fast to my mantle, for thus shalt thou be guarded. And I will send one to thee out of the wrath of Ossë, and thus shalt thou be guided: yea, the last mariner of the last ship that shall seek into the West until the rising of the Star. Go now back to the land!’
It seems to me that we should replace Melko not be Morgoth in the message of Ulmo.

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Old 02-10-2013, 06:20 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Findegil
By the way: In the thread 'Tuor/Gondolin/Text' some of your points are already mentioned by Tar-Elenion, Maedhros, yourself, Aiwendil and me.
I had forgotten about that thread.

FG-C-22: Yes, it seems that we could not come up with a suitable transition and decided that we must drop the poem. By preference was to make the transition in line 5 by having Tuor compare the sound of the reeds to the sound of the waves in Nevrast, but my line was not so good. Findegil thought a transition in line 6 more promising, but I found those proposals clunky.

Here's another stab at a line 5 transition:

Quote:
{'Twas} [Here] in the Land of Willows where the grass is long and green ?
I {was} [sit] fingering my harp-strings, for a wind {had} [has] crept unseen
And {was} [is] speaking in the tree-tops, while the voices of the reeds
{Were} [are] whispering reedy whispers as the sunset {touched} [hits] the meads{,}[;]
{Inland}[They echo] musics {subtly} magic that {those} [the] {reeds} [waves] alone {could} [can] weave ?}
It was in the Land of {Willows} [Nevrast] that once {Ylmir} [Ulmo] came at eve.
Or perhaps better is:
Quote:
{'Twas} [Here] in the Land of Willows where the grass is long and green ?
I {was} [sit] fingering my harp-strings, for a wind {had} [has] crept unseen
And {was} [is] speaking in the tree-tops, while the voices of the reeds
{Were} [are] whispering reedy whispers as the sunset {touched} [hits] the meads{,}[;]
{Inland}[They echo] musics subtly magic that {those reeds} [wind and waves] {alone} {could} [can] weave ?}
It was in the Land of {Willows} [Nevrast] that once {Ylmir} [Ulmo] came at eve.
I must say, though, that my line 'as the sunset hits the meads' doesn't look too good to me anymore (I can accept a sunset 'touching' something, but 'hitting' is taking it too far, I think). What about 'lights the meads'?

Quote:
{'Twas} [Here] in the Land of Willows where the grass is long and green ?
I {was} [sit] fingering my harp-strings, for a wind {had} [has] crept unseen
And {was} [is] speaking in the tree-tops, while the voices of the reeds
{Were} [are] whispering reedy whispers as the sunset {touched} [lights] the meads{,}[;]
{Inland}[They echo] musics subtly magic that {those reeds} [wind and waves] {alone} {could} [can] weave ?}
It was in the Land of {Willows} [Nevrast] that once {Ylmir} [Ulmo] came at eve.
{ages}[centuries]: Yes, I suppose you may be right - this change is fine.

FG-T-24:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gondowe
And doubt the Doom of Mandos the only thing the Noldor could do was to fly, not go to war against Morgoth.

Remembering the words Ulmo have been speech Turgon in Vinyamar '...that the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West and cometh from the Sea.'
It sounds like you prefer to remove the counsel that they make alliances and go to war. But the text you posted retains it. Which is your actual preference?

Whether the counsel of war really contradicts the Prophecy of the North, and Ulmo's words to Turgon in Vinyamar, is worth some thought. But how then does one explain the Tale of Years entry, which, it seems to me, quite clearly implies that Ulmo's counsel involves making alliances with other Elves and Men?

I have reviewed the Prophecy of the North again and can find nothing that clearly rules out the possibility of Men and Elves together defeating Morgoth. Nor, I think, do Ulmo's words rule it out - he is saying that the surest way to defeat Morgoth is with the aid of the Valar, but he is not saying that it is the only way.

I think the text proposed by Gondowe is our best option.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Findegil
It seems to me that we should replace Melko not be Morgoth in the message of Ulmo.
Do you mean that you would prefer:
Quote:
for {Melko}[Melkor] ringeth them in the Land of Shadows beyond hills of iron.
I can't recall whether we have any examples of the Valar referring to him as 'Morgoth'. But unless we can find some, using 'Melkor' is probably safer.

FG-D-02, -29: It seems that our discussion of this in the 'Mechanical Monsters' thread was not as conclusive as I remembered. I thought we had decided against making any changes for the sake of clarity, but I see now that that was not clearly agreed.

I'm afraid I still don't see the necessity of making these changes. The 'fire-dragon' vs. 'dragon of fire' distinction seems too artificial to me, and more importantly, I don't think the proposed changes have the desired effect of making things any clearer for the reader. If I approach this from the point of view of someone not privy to our discussions, I don't think it would even cross my mind that 'fire-drake' consistently meant something different from 'drake of fire'.

FG-C-03: There was some discussion of this on the first page of this thread, but other than that and the post you mentioned, I cannot find anything.

But my opinion on this is unchanged. I find it incredible that after the Prophecy of the North declares 'Great is the fall of Gondolin', Turgon would blithely go ahead and name their city Gondolin. Remember, in the Lost Tales, Turgon is not yet born when the prophecy is made, and it can more plausibly be supposed that he was unaware of it. Indeed, I would not be surprised if it was for this reason that later accounts of the prophecy omit any mention of Gondolin. So I think it has to be:

Quote:
Then said the king: FG-C-03 'Great is the fall of Gondolin'{, and men shuddered, for such were the words of Annon the prophet of old}; but Tuor speaking wildly ...
FG-C-26: I don't think I understand why you find 'delta of Sirion' preferrable to 'mouth of Sirion' - to me, they seem synonymous. But we could make it 'the isle at the mouth of Sirion'. (I cannot remember whether Tolkien ever uses the term 'delta' with respect to a river, which is why I preferred 'mouth').

Also, there is some historical present here - I believe it has been our policy to change this to past. So I would suggest:

Quote:
Yet now those exiles of Gondolin dwelt at the mouth of Sirion by the waves of the Great Sea FG-C-26 <Q30, and joined their folk to the slender company of Elwing daughter of Dior, that had fled thither little while before>. There they {take}[took] the name of {Lothlim}[Lothrim], the people of the flower, for {Gondothlim}[Gondolindrim] {is}[was] a name too sore to their hearts; and fair among the {Lothlim}[Lothrim] {Eärendel}[Eärendil] {grows}[grew] in <TE-N(i) the Isle of Sirion in> the <TE-N(i) snow-white stone> house of his father, and the great tale of Tuor is come to its waning.'
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Old 02-11-2013, 11:04 AM   #91
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Quote:
Originally posted by Aiwendil
It sounds like you prefer to remove the counsel that they make alliances and go to war. But the text you posted retains it. Which is your actual preference?
Whether the counsel of war really contradicts the Prophecy of the North, and Ulmo's words to Turgon in Vinyamar, is worth some thought. But how then does one explain the Tale of Years entry, which, it seems to me, quite clearly implies that Ulmo's counsel involves making alliances with other Elves and Men?
I have reviewed the Prophecy of the North again and can find nothing that clearly rules out the possibility of Men and Elves together defeating Morgoth. Nor, I think, do Ulmo's words rule it out - he is saying that the surest way to defeat Morgoth is with the aid of the Valar, but he is not saying that it is the only way.
I think the text proposed by Gondowe is our best option.
It was not a proposal, only quoted the whole text of Findegil, sorry.
Quote:
Originally posted by Aiwendil
But my opinion on this is unchanged. I find it incredible that after the Prophecy of the North declares 'Great is the fall of Gondolin', Turgon would blithely go ahead and name their city Gondolin. Remember, in the Lost Tales, Turgon is not yet born when the prophecy is made, and it can more plausibly be supposed that he was unaware of it. Indeed, I would not be surprised if it was for this reason that later accounts of the prophecy omit any mention of Gondolin.
Well, in this whole case (joining the two quotes), it can be considered several things. First of all the Prophecy of the North; that one only tells of the Doom of the Noldor, very bad. So we must combine the Prophecy and the words of Ulmo.
But we must consider one thing before; in the Prophecy I introduced the sentence “'Tears unnumbered ye shall shed<LT and great {is} [will be] the fall of Gondolin>; and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains. On the House of Fëanor the wrath of the Valar lieth from the West unto the uttermost East, and upon all that will follow them it shall be laid also.”
If I´m right, you or only Findegil did more or less the same.
If we accept to include it, it can be remembered in the FoG. So it can be a matter of discussion to do or not. I like to include it because it sounds me more dramatical, is like an arc between the Doom and its fulfillment.
If Turgon was not born in LT, in my opinion doesn`t matter because some Noldor of Gondolin could have been and in fact were in Valinor and could have tell Turgon not to name the city Gondolin.
In other way, in my opinion, the will of Ulmo always was (in the last conception of the professor, and due to that fulfillment) to carry Tour to Gondolin to bring into the world Eärendil, the only being, Half Elf, Half Man, designated with the help of the Silmaril (we can think that Ulmo knew very much due to his part in the Music) to come to Valinor and beg for pardon and help to the Valar. So Turgon only would fly to the mouths of Sirion or Tol Sirion and wait the coming of the Host of West and then go to war against Angband, not before. ”But Turgon was become proud, and Gondolin as beautiful as a memory of Elven Tirion, and he trusted still in its secret and impregnable strength, though even a Vala should gainsay it”.
For that reason, in my opinion, the sentence in ToY could be ambiguous, it could be that Turgon want no alliance with the sons of Fëanor in any case. Or could be an omission of the professor.
What do you think?

Quote:
Originally posted by Aiwendil
I can't recall whether we have any examples of the Valar referring to him as 'Morgoth'. But unless we can find some, using 'Melkor' is probably safer.
I think Ulmo could name him Morgoth (Black Enemy, he named him Enemy previously). It can be a solidarity with Elves and Men.

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Old 02-11-2013, 04:59 PM   #92
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About the thread 'Tuor/Gondolin/Text': Aiwendil, your are a moderator of this forum. Since there is nothing in that thread that would merrit its hiding in privat forum, can you move to it this forum?

FG-C-22: Aiwendil your last proposal seems okay to me. But I wonder why you used 'sit' in line 2? I thought that we had agreed on 'sing', because any other verb would mean to invent a fact in Middle-earth.

FG-T-24: Gondowe, as far as I know we did not take up the sentence 'Great is the fall of Gondolin' into words reported in our text of the prophecy of the north. This does of course not mean that they were not included in the actual words, since the passage 'many woes it foretold in dark words, which the Noldor understood not until the woes indeed after befell them' has room enough.

When Ulmo speaks to Tuor at Vinyamar he uses Melkor in all cases, therefore I think Tuor should use the name Melkor, while he spoke the message of Ulmo.

What shades some doubts on Ulmo asking Turgon to go against Angband is this unanswered question of Tuor:
Quote:
‘Then shall Turgon not stand against Morgoth, as all the Eldar yet hope?’ said Tuor.
Anyhow, I think the passage should read thus:
Quote:
FG-T-24 Then spake Tuor, and Ulmo set power in his heart and majesty in his voice. ‘Behold, O father of the City of Stone, I am bidden by him who maketh deep music in the Abyss, and who knoweth the mind of Elves and Men, to say unto thee that the days of Release draw nigh. There have come to the ears of Ulmo whispers of your{ dwelling and your hill of} vigilance against the evil of {Melko}[Melkor], and he is glad: but his heart is wroth and the hearts of the Valar are angered who sit in the mountains of Valinor and look upon the world from the peak of Taniquetil, seeing the sorrow of the thraldom of the {Noldoli}[Elves] and the wanderings of Men; for {Melko}[Melkor] ringeth them in the Land of Shadows beyond {hills of iron}[Ered Wethrin]. Therefore have I been brought by a secret way to bid you number your hosts and prepare for battle, for the time is ripe.’ <Q30 {and}And he bade Turgon to send again his messengers into the West. Summons too should he send into the East and gather, if he might, Men (who were now multiplying and spreading on the earth) unto his banners; and for that task Tuor was most fit. 'Forget,' counselled Ulmo, 'the treachery of Uldor the accursed, and remember Hurin; for without mortal Men the Elves shall not prevail against the Balrogs and the Orcs.' Nor should the feud with the sons of Feanor be left unhealed; for this should be the last gathering of the hope of the {Gnomes}[Noldor], when every sword should count.> Thus <Q30 Tuor spoke the embassy of Ulmo <TO in the hearing of all>, and something of the power and majesty of the Lord of Waters his voice had caught, so that all folk looked in wonder on him, and doubted that this were a Man of mortal race as he declared.>
FG-T-25 Then spake Turgon: ‘That will I not do, though it be the words of Ulmo and all the Valar. I will not adventure this my people against the terror of the Orcs, nor emperil my city against the fire of {Melko}[Morgoth].’
Then spake Tuor: ‘Nay, if thou dost not now dare greatly then will the Orcs dwell for ever and possess in the end most of the mountains of the Earth, and cease not to trouble both Elves and Men, even though by other means the Valar contrive hereafter to release the {Noldoli}[Noldor]; but if thou trust now to the Valar, though terrible the encounter, then shall the Orcs fall, and {Melko}[Melkor]'s power be minished to a little thing.’ <Q30 {and}And he foretold the healing of feuds, and friendship between Men and Elves, whereof the greatest good should come into the world, and the servants of Morgoth trouble it no more.>
But Turgon said that he was king of Gondolin and no will should force him against his counsel to emperil the dear labour of long ages gone; but Tuor said, for thus was he bidden by Ulmo who had feared the reluctance of Turgon: ‘Then am I bidden to say that men of the {Gondothlim}[Gondolindrim] repair swiftly and secretly down the river Sirion to the sea, and there build them boats and go seek back to Valinor: lo! the paths thereto are forgotten and the highways faded from the world, and the seas and mountains are about it, yet still dwell there the Elves on the hill of {Kôr}[Tuna] and the {Gods}[Valar] sit in Valinor, though their mirth is minished for sorrow{ and fear of Melko}, and they hide their land and weave about it inaccessible magic that no evil come to its shores. Yet still might thy messengers win there and turn their hearts that they rise in wrath and smite {Melko}[Melkor], and destroy the Hells of Iron that he has wrought beneath the Mountains of Darkness.’ <QS77 And he gave warning to Turgon that the Curse of Mandos now hastened to its fulfilment, when all the works of the Noldor should perish;> <TO {Ulmo's cloak would vanish when Tuor spoke the message to Turgon}[and when he had spoken, the cloak of Ulmo vanished.]>
FG-D-02, -04 & -29: Well, I can in the end live without all these changes. So I would much prefer to have FG-D-29. But thinking about it again, we also here from Glaurung and Smaug that they were exhausted after battles and retreated to sleep.

FG-C-03: Why should the men not shudder at the pronaunciation of the King of Gondolin that their city is lost? What about:
Quote:
Then said the king: FG-C-03 KO 'Great is the fall of Gondolin', and men shuddered{, for such were the words of Annon the prophet of old}; but Tuor speaking wildly ...
By the way, Aiwendil, do you remember what KO did mean?

FG-C-26: Posted by Aiwendil:
Quote:
I cannot remember whether Tolkien ever uses the term 'delta' with respect to a river, which is why I preferred 'mouth'.
True. I agree to take 'the isle at the mouth of Sirion'. I also agree to the change the historical present.

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Old 02-11-2013, 05:15 PM   #93
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FG-T-24: Looking back through old threads, I realized that I had completely forgotten about the discussion of this point in this thread. It seems that there, Maedhros and I converged on the view that Ulmo's counsel of war was likely not rejected, but that it would be safer not to include it; Findegil meanwhile favoured keeping it. In that thread, I wrote:

Quote:
But by choosing not to put this element back in, we are not simply rejecting it. I think that our account could be taken as simply omitting mention of the first part of Ulmo's counsel. This seems a safer course than putting in a slightly dubious bit. However, if the general opinion is that our version as it stands does not leave room for that interpretation, then I think a very good case could be made for putting in Ulmo's first piece of advice.
But looking at the text now, I find it harder to imagine that Tuor's message included counsel of war that is simply not mentioned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gondowe
In other way, in my opinion, the will of Ulmo always was (in the last conception of the professor, and due to that fulfillment) to carry Tour to Gondolin to bring into the world Eärendil, the only being, Half Elf, Half Man, designated with the help of the Silmaril (we can think that Ulmo knew very much due to his part in the Music) to come to Valinor and beg for pardon and help to the Valar.
That would seem a reasonable interpretation. But is there textual evidence that this was Ulmo's sole hope and his only reason for guiding Tuor to Gondolin? Might he not have foreseen two possible ways of overcoming Morgoth? He might even have correctly foreseen that Turgon would refuse to go to war and thus that Earendil would in fact turn out to be the only hope.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gondowe
So Turgon only would fly to the mouths of Sirion or Tol Sirion and wait the coming of the Host of West and then go to war against Angband, not before. ”But Turgon was become proud, and Gondolin as beautiful as a memory of Elven Tirion, and he trusted still in its secret and impregnable strength, though even a Vala should gainsay it”.
For that reason, in my opinion, the sentence in ToY could be ambiguous, it could be that Turgon want no alliance with the sons of Fëanor in any case.
That's an interesting line of reasoning, but I must say, it still seems to me very tortured to read the ToY entry in such a way. If the advice is that Turgon take his people down to the mouths of Sirion and then join with the host of the Valar when they arrive, why would he object to such an alliance? In that case, what would the kin-slaying have to do with anything? Surely going down to the mouths of the Sirion would not require an alliance with the sons of Feanor. If Ulmo's last warning only urged Turgon to go to the mouths of Sirion, I simply can't see why his refusal to follow it should have to do with his objection to an 'alliance'.

The only concrete piece of evidence that I can see against the counsel of war is this passage from GA:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grey Annals
There Tuor was brought before King Turgon, and spake the words that Ulmo had set in his mouth, bidding him depart and abandon the fair and mighty city that he had built, and go down to the sea.
But of course, this is a very compressed account.

So, I am (as I tend to be) ambivalent about this. I'm also hesitant to revoke a decision we made back when we had a greater number of active contributors. I'll think about it.
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Old 02-12-2013, 03:09 AM   #94
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MY impresion was always that Ulmo had hopped that he would be able to bring the Valar to assist the fight in Middle-earth when Turgon would build the allaince that Ulmo suggested. With the plans he suggests (bring men out of the east, froming an allaince with the Feanorians) this looks like an all-in move for the people of middle-earth. Thus the Valar would be in the situation either to see the annihilation of the free people of Middle-earth or go out and help them against Morogoth. A few years later they rescue the free people of Middle-earth in a similar situation, just that the poeple of Middle-earth have become so week that the impuls of war must come from the Valar.

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Old 02-12-2013, 10:04 AM   #95
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Aiwendil you are right thinking that it would be better that many members could opine in these matters, because it is one of these that with no clear evidence of text written by the professor can be understood in several ways. It’s in some ways a matter of taste and personal understanding.
Quote:
Originally posted by Aiwendil
But is there textual evidence that this was Ulmo's sole hope and his only reason for guiding Tuor to Gondolin? Might he not have foreseen two possible ways of overcoming Morgoth? He might even have correctly foreseen that Turgon would refuse to go to war and thus that Earendil would in fact turn out to be the only hope.
I have not time to look for but I think that there’s not textual evidence, apart for the mention of the Grey Annals that I have no repaired (remembered) in, and for me is a good one in the way of going against the counsel of war, in spite of its compression.
Quote:
Originally posted by Aiwendil
If the advice is that Turgon take his people down to the mouths of Sirion and then join with the host of the Valar when they arrive, why would he object to such an alliance? In that case, what would the kin-slaying have to do with anything? Surely going down to the mouths of the Sirion would not require an alliance with the sons of Feanor. If Ulmo's last warning only urged Turgon to go to the mouths of Sirion, I simply can't see why his refusal to follow it should have to do with his objection to an 'alliance'.
The second kin-slaying had taken place and there had no solution, and a hate of Turgon and every elf towards Fëanor house is dramatical in any case. Perhaps there would be no third kin-slaying, but insisting, there are only suppositions with no textual evidence.

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Old 02-13-2013, 11:10 AM   #96
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Going through the text, to bring the insert to the fromat of the editing we have right now I found a palce were I think we should further elaborate the text:
FG-TG-11.5 & FG-TG-12: As it stand now the text reads:
Quote:
In these days came to pass the fulfilment of the time of the desire of the Valar and the hope of the Eldalië, for in great love Idril bore to Tuor a son FG-TG-11.5 <editorial addition based on Shibboleth and she named him Ardamírë, but his father named him> {and he was called} Eärendil <editorial addition and by this name he was know ever after>. FG-TG-12 {Now thereto there are many interpretations both among Elves and Men, but belike it was a name wrought of some secret tongue among the Gondothlim and that has perished with them from the dwellings of the Earth.}
The insert is based on The Shibboleth of Feanor, so it is not found their word by word (rules were take less striked in these old days). As the original passage does give an explaination of the name (even so that only says the name is not explainable), I think we should add more form The Shibboleth:
Quote:
In these days came to pass the fulfilment of the time of the desire of the Valar and the hope of the Eldalië, for in great love Idril bore to Tuor a son FG-TG-11.5 and he was called Eärendil. FG-TG-12 {Now thereto there are many interpretations both among Elves and Men, but belike it was a name wrought of some secret tongue among the Gondothlim and that has perished with them from the dwellings of the Earth.}<Shibboleth Eärendil was thus the second of the Pereldar (Half-elven), the elder being Dior, son of Beren and Lúthien Tinúviel daughter of King Elu Thingol. His names were, however, given in Quenya; for Turgon after his foundation of the secret city of Gondolin had re-established Quenya as the daily speech of his household. Eärendil had this name as father-name, and as mother-name he was called Ardamírë. In this case both names were 'prophetic'. Tuor in his long journey by the west shores of Beleriand, after his escape from captivity, had been visited by the great Vala Ulmo in person, and Ulmo had directed him to seek for Gondolin, foretelling that if he found it he would there beget a son ever afterwards renowned as a mariner. Improbable as this seemed to Tuor, since neither the Atani nor the Noldor had any love of the sea or of ships, he named his son in Quenya 'sea-lover'. More purely prophetic was the name Ardamírë 'Jewel of the World'; for {Itarildë}[Idril] could not foresee in her waking mind the strange fate {that brought at last the Silmaril into the possession }of Eärendil{, and enabled his ship to pass through all the shadows and perils by which Aman was at that time defended from any approach from Middle-earth}. These names were not given Sindarin forms in legend[Footnote: Forms affected by Sindarin in manuscripts, such as Aerendil, Aerennel, etc. were casual and accidental.], though Sindarin writers sometimes explained that they meant mír n'{Arðon}[Ardhon] and Seron Aearon.>
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Last edited by Findegil; 02-13-2013 at 02:48 PM. Reason: I had to add format and diacritics.
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Old 02-13-2013, 01:07 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Findegil
About the thread 'Tuor/Gondolin/Text': Aiwendil, your are a moderator of this forum. Since there is nothing in that thread that would merrit its hiding in privat forum, can you move to it this forum?
Good idea. I've just moved it to the public forum (here).

Quote:
FG-C-22: Aiwendil your last proposal seems okay to me. But I wonder why you used 'sit' in line 2? I thought that we had agreed on 'sing', because any other verb would mean to invent a fact in Middle-earth.
I had forgotten about that. You are right that using 'sit' amounts to inventing a fact. But 'sing' doesn't sound right to me. What about just using 'am'? I think that I had argued against this before, but when I look at it now, it doesn't seem too bad:

Quote:
{'Twas} [Here] in the Land of Willows where the grass is long and green
I {was} [am] fingering my harp-strings, for a wind {had} [has] crept unseen
And {was} [is] speaking in the tree-tops, while the voices of the reeds
{Were} [are] whispering reedy whispers as the sunset {touched} [lights] the meads{,}[;]
{Inland}[They echo] musics subtly magic that {those reeds} [wind and waves] {alone could} [can] weave -
It was in the Land of {Willows} [Nevrast] that once {Ylmir} [Ulmo] came at eve.
(By the way, sorry about the strange question marks that somehow ended up in this passage in my earlier post.)

Quote:
When Ulmo speaks to Tuor at Vinyamar he uses Melkor in all cases, therefore I think Tuor should use the name Melkor, while he spoke the message of Ulmo.
Good observation. I think you are right.

FG-D-04, -29: The thing is that I have a hard time seeing the 'fire-drake' vs. 'drake of fire' distinction as anything but contrived. But these are, after all, small changes, so if you really think them needed, I can live with them.

Quote:
FG-C-03: Why should the men not shudder at the pronaunciation of the King of Gondolin that their city is lost?
The thinking, I suppose, was that in the original, they shuddered specifically because they realized that this was foretold in the Prophecy of the North. But we may have been overzealous; certainly the fact that their city is lost is reason enough to shudder. So I think we can take your last suggestion.

Quote:
By the way, Aiwendil, do you remember what KO did mean?
You know, I'm not sure. I thought it was Lindil's notation that a change had been rejected ('knocked out', a boxing term in English), but in this case that's clearly not what was meant.
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Old 02-13-2013, 04:07 PM   #98
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FG-C-22:
Quote:
Here in the Land of Willows where the grass is long and green −
I am fingering my harp-strings, for a wind has crept unseen
And is speaking in tree-tops, while the voices of the reeds
Are whispering reedy whispers as the sunset lights the meads;
They echo musics subtly magic that wind and waves weave − 5
It was in the Land of Nevrats that once Ulmo came at eve.
That is okay for me.

FG-D-04, -29: Okay, for me these changes seem important. So we will keep them. But reading the passage again, I think we leave FG-D-17:
Quote:
... but even as Tuor comes nigh driving the Orcs, one of those brazen snakes heaves against the western wall and a great mass of it shakes and falls, and behind comes a creature of fire and Balrogs FG-B-05 {upon}[with] it. ...
...
But so it is that few cannot fight always against the many, and Ecthelion's left arm got a sore rent from a whip of the Balrog’s and his shield fell to earth FG-D-17 { even as that dragon of fire drew nigh amid the ruin of the walls}.Then Ecthelion must lean on Tuor, and Tuor might not leave him, though the very feet of FG-D-18 the trampling beast were upon them, and they were like to be overborne: but Tuor hewed at a foot of the creature so that flame spouted forth, and that serpent screamed, lashing with its tail; and many of both Orcs and {Noldoli}[Noldor] got their death therefrom.
This was a change for clarity, as 2 §§ earlier there were two dragons mention a type 2 (mechanical bronze dragon) and a type 3 (serpant of fire). Then next we have the approach of the type 3. And after that he have Tuor hewing the foot of a dragon, which by the simple logic that the serpents of fire (type 3) have no feet must be the type 2. We did skip the mention of the type 2, but I think that is unneccessary. If we can sort this out, our readers can do the same. We should simply leave the passage as it stood in the original.

FG-C-03 KO: Okay, as no body knows, I will simply delet the KO.

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Old 02-15-2013, 04:18 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally posted by Findegil
When Ulmo speaks to Tuor at Vinyamar he uses Melkor in all cases, therefore I think Tuor should use the name Melkor, while he spoke the message of Ulmo.
Yes you are right, I think is an error of the Spanish edition, i don't know why.

About the insert of The Shibboleth you posted above, in my opinion the better is as it was before or something like:

Quote:
In these days came to pass the fulfilment of the time of the desire of the Valar and the hope of the Eldalië, for in great love Idril bore to Tuor a son FG-TG-11.5 and he was called Eärendil. FG-TG-12 {Now thereto there are many interpretations both among Elves and Men, but belike it was a name wrought of some secret tongue among the Gondothlim and that has perished with them from the dwellings of the Earth.}<Shibboleth {Eärendil was thus the second of the Pereldar (Half-elven), the elder being Dior, son of Beren and Lúthien Tinúviel daughter of King Elu Thingol. His names were, however, given in Quenya; for Turgon after his foundation of the secret city of Gondolin had re-established Quenya as the daily speech of his household. Eärendil} He had this name as father-name, and as mother-name he was called Ardamírë, (taken from below) 'Jewel of the World'. In this case both names were 'prophetic'. {Tuor in his long journey by the west shores of Beleriand, after his escape from captivity, had been visited by the great Vala Ulmo in person, and Ulmo had directed him to seek for Gondolin, foretelling that if he found it he would there beget a son ever afterwards renowned as a mariner. Improbable as this seemed to Tuor, since neither the Atani nor the Noldor had any love of the sea or of ships, he named his son in Quenya 'sea-lover'. More purely prophetic was the name Ardamírë 'Jewel of the World'; for Itarildë could not foresee in her waking mind the strange fate that brought at last the Silmaril into the possession of Eärendil, and enabled his ship to pass through all the shadows and perils by which Aman was at that time defended from any approach from Middle-earth. These names were not given Sindarin forms in legend[Footnote: Forms affected by Sindarin in manuscripts, such as Aerendil, Aerennel, etc. were casual and accidental.], though Sindarin writers sometimes explained that they meant mír n'Arðon and Seron Aearon.}>
the insertion of the mayor text sounds very artificial and breaks the narration, repeating also the journey of Tuor. It would be better place it in an appendix or in an Index.

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Old 02-17-2013, 10:05 AM   #100
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FG-TG-11.5, -12: I think I agree with Gondowe here: such a large chunk of text written in a very different style and in a philological (rather than a narrative) mode does too much damage. Also, beyond the fact that the description of Tuor's meeting with Ulmo is redundant, it also appears to contradict the narrative of that meeting that is given earlier in this chapter. For in the account from 'Tuor', Ulmo does not make any such prophecy concerning Tuor having a son. (And it seems incredible to me that such a prophecy would not be mentioned). So I prefer to leave this as it was before.
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Old 02-18-2013, 06:21 AM   #101
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FG-TG-11.5, -12: Isn't the original change covered 'only' by principal 6.a) and 2 in combination?
Quote:
6. The actual words used by J.R.R. Tolkien or the editor or summarizer of his work may only be changed, including change by deletion or addition, when:
a) they are minimally changed to agree with statements elsewhere in the canon recognized as of greater validity or are replaced with words or phrases from later or alternate restatements of the same material for reasons of consistancy or are changed to agree with alternate phrasings used by Tolkien of the same or better validity
And would we not disiere to have a changed covered by Principal 2 alone?
Quote:
2. Secondary priority is given to the latest ideas found among Tolkien's unpublished texts and letters, except ...
Okay, this is put very simple. And anyway I can agree to the point that the passage reads a bit out of place. But I think nonetheless we should try to stay more close to the words of The Shibboleth then the original change does. And the original text did provide an explaination, so I think we should update this. What about:
Quote:
In these days came to pass the fulfilment of the time of the desire of the Valar and the hope of the Eldalië, for in great love Idril bore to Tuor a son FG-TG-11.5 and he was called Eärendil. FG-TG-12 {Now thereto there are many interpretations both among Elves and Men, but belike it was a name wrought of some secret tongue among the Gondothlim and that has perished with them from the dwellings of the Earth.}<Shibboleth Eärendil was thus the second of the Pereldar (Half-elven), the elder being Dior, son of Beren and Lúthien Tinúviel daughter of King Elu Thingol. His names were, however, given in Quenya; for Turgon after his foundation of the secret city of Gondolin had re-established Quenya as the daily speech of his household. Eärendil had this name as father-name, and as mother-name he was called Ardamírë. In this case both names were 'prophetic'. Tuor {in his long journey by the west shores of Beleriand, after his escape from captivity, had been visited by the great Vala Ulmo in person, and Ulmo had directed him to seek for Gondolin, foretelling that if he found it he would there beget a son ever afterwards renowned as a mariner. Improbable as this seemed to Tuor, since neither the Atani nor the Noldor had any love of the sea or of ships, he} named his son in Quenya 'sea-lover'. More purely prophetic was the name Ardamírë 'Jewel of the World'; for {Itarildë}[Idril] could not foresee in her waking mind the strange fate {that brought at last the Silmaril into the possession }of Eärendil{, and enabled his ship to pass through all the shadows and perils by which Aman was at that time defended from any approach from Middle-earth}. These names were not given Sindarin forms in legend[Footnote: Forms affected by Sindarin in manuscripts, such as Aerendil, Aerennel, etc. were casual and accidental.], though Sindarin writers sometimes explained that they meant mír n'{Arðon}[Ardhon] and Seron Aearon.>
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Old 02-20-2013, 10:32 AM   #102
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This seems me better, but I still think that the linguistic/philological explanations must be removed to other places.
I agree with you that every information of any kind Tolkien left us must be preserved, but in cases like this one I prefer the Appendices or an index of names where, for example, the entry Eärendil contains such explanations.

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Old 02-20-2013, 06:31 PM   #103
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I guess I agree that the original emendation was too free, but like Gondowe, I think the explanatory/philological nature of the passage from the Shibboleth disrupts the narrative too badly.

I would suggest:

Quote:
In these days came to pass the fulfilment of the time of the desire of the Valar and the hope of the Eldalië, for in great love Idril bore to Tuor a son FG-TG-11.5 and he was called Eärendil, <Shibboleth 'sea-lover'>. FG-TG-12 {Now thereto there are many interpretations both among Elves and Men, but belike it was a name wrought of some secret tongue among the Gondothlim and that has perished with them from the dwellings of the Earth.}<Shibboleth He had this name as father-name, and as mother-name he was called Ardamírë,> <Shibboleth 'Jewel of the World'>
I don't know that more information than that is needed. Perhaps a footnote could indicate that these names were Quenya, because that had been re-established as the daily speech of Turgon's household (though actually we should check carefully to make sure that no later note contradicts this). But I think that since we certainly cannot tell about Earendil's becoming a star here, it makes little sense to mangle the text just to get in the point that the names were prophetic.
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Old 02-21-2013, 05:28 AM   #104
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FG-TG-12: Okay, I agree to remove the philological passages. Maybe we should add here only the save information that both names were Quenay:
Quote:
In these days came to pass the fulfilment of the time of the desire of the Valar and the hope of the Eldalië, for in great love Idril bore to Tuor a son FG-TG-11.5 and he was called Eärendil, <Shibboleth 'sea-lover'>. FG-TG-12 {Now thereto there are many interpretations both among Elves and Men, but belike it was a name wrought of some secret tongue among the Gondothlim and that has perished with them from the dwellings of the Earth.}<Shibboleth He had this name as father-name, and as mother-name he was called Ardamírë,> <Shibboleth 'Jewel of the World'>. <Shibboleth His names were{, however,}both given in Quenya.>
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Old 02-24-2013, 09:57 PM   #105
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FG-TG-12: That looks fine, but unless you object I think it would be better to put that in a footnote, so as not to disrupt the narrative at all. That would also allow us to keep a little bit more:

Quote:
In these days came to pass the fulfilment of the time of the desire of the Valar and the hope of the Eldalië, for in great love Idril bore to Tuor a son FG-TG-11.5 and he was called Eärendil, <Shibboleth 'sea-lover'>. FG-TG-12 {Now thereto there are many interpretations both among Elves and Men, but belike it was a name wrought of some secret tongue among the Gondothlim and that has perished with them from the dwellings of the Earth.}<Shibboleth He had this name as father-name, and as mother-name he was called Ardamírë,> <Shibboleth 'Jewel of the World'> [Footnote: <Shibboleth His names were{, however,} given in Quenya; for Turgon after his foundation of the secret city of Gondolin had re-established Quenya as the daily speech of his household.> <Shibboleth These names were not given Sindarin forms in legend [(]{F}forms affected by Sindarin in manuscripts, such as Aerendil, Aerennel, etc. were casual and accidental[)], though Sindarin writers sometimes explained that they meant mír n'{Arðon}[Ardhon] and Seron Aearon.>]
I don't think we have a standard notation for footnotes in our editing, but I trust the meaning of the above is clear. Note that I've put the bit that was actually a footnote in the Shibboleth in parentheses, rather than having a footnote within a footnote.
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Old 02-25-2013, 08:34 AM   #106
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FG-TG-12: Very nice. Your notation for the footnote was near enough to the editing we did for the few footnotes that survived so fare.

So what is left?
As far as I could find:

- FG-C-22: Did we agreed now to keep 'Horns of Ulmo'?

- FG-T-24: How much of the biding of Ulmo is kept? The text as it stands reads:
Quote:
FG-T-24 Then spake Tuor, and Ulmo set power in his heart and majesty in his voice. ‘Behold, O father of the City of Stone, I am bidden by him who maketh deep music in the Abyss, and who knoweth the mind of Elves and Men, to say unto thee that the days of Release draw nigh. There have come to the ears of Ulmo whispers of your{ dwelling and your hill of} vigilance against the evil of {Melko}[Melkor], and he is glad: but his heart is wroth and the hearts of the Valar are angered who sit in the mountains of Valinor and look upon the world from the peak of Taniquetil, seeing the sorrow of the thraldom of the {Noldoli}[Elves] and the wanderings of Men; for {Melko}[Melkor] ringeth them in the Land of Shadows beyond {hills of iron}[Ered Wethrin]. Therefore have I been brought by a secret way to bid you number your hosts and prepare for battle, for the time is ripe.’ <Q30 {and}And he bade Turgon to send again his messengers into the West. Summons too should he send into the East and gather, if he might, Men (who were now multiplying and spreading on the earth) unto his banners; and for that task Tuor was most fit. 'Forget,' counselled Ulmo, 'the treachery of Uldor the accursed, and remember Hurin; for without mortal Men the Elves shall not prevail against the Balrogs and the Orcs.' Nor should the feud with the sons of Feanor be left unhealed; for this should be the last gathering of the hope of the {Gnomes}[Noldor], when every sword should count.> Thus <Q30 Tuor spoke the embassy of Ulmo <TO in the hearing of all>, and something of the power and majesty of the Lord of Waters his voice had caught, so that all folk looked in wonder on him, and doubted that this were a Man of mortal race as he declared.>
FG-T-25 Then spake Turgon: ‘That will I not do, though it be the words of Ulmo and all the Valar. I will not adventure this my people against the terror of the Orcs, nor emperil my city against the fire of {Melko}[Morgoth].’
Then spake Tuor: ‘Nay, if thou dost not now dare greatly then will the Orcs dwell for ever and possess in the end most of the mountains of the Earth, and cease not to trouble both Elves and Men, even though by other means the Valar contrive hereafter to release the {Noldoli}[Noldor]; but if thou trust now to the Valar, though terrible the encounter, then shall the Orcs fall, and {Melko}[Melkor]'s power be minished to a little thing.’ <Q30 {and}And he foretold the healing of feuds, and friendship between Men and Elves, whereof the greatest good should come into the world, and the servants of Morgoth trouble it no more.>
But Turgon said that he was king of Gondolin and no will should force him against his counsel to emperil the dear labour of long ages gone; but Tuor said, for thus was he bidden by Ulmo who had feared the reluctance of Turgon: ‘Then am I bidden to say that men of the {Gondothlim}[Gondolindrim] repair swiftly and secretly down the river Sirion to the sea, and there build them boats and go seek back to Valinor: lo! the paths thereto are forgotten and the highways faded from the world, and the seas and mountains are about it, yet still dwell there the Elves on the hill of {Kôr}[Tuna] and the {Gods}[Valar] sit in Valinor, though their mirth is minished for sorrow{ and fear of Melko}, and they hide their land and weave about it inaccessible magic that no evil come to its shores. Yet still might thy messengers win there and turn their hearts that they rise in wrath and smite {Melko}[Melkor], and destroy the Hells of Iron that he has wrought beneath the Mountains of Darkness.’ <QS77 And he gave warning to Turgon that the Curse of Mandos now hastened to its fulfilment, when all the works of the Noldor should perish;> <TO {Ulmo's cloak would vanish when Tuor spoke the message to Turgon}[and when he had spoken, the cloak of Ulmo vanished.]>
<QS77 Then Turgon pondered long the counsel of Ulmo, and there came into his mind the words that were spoken to him in Vinyamar: 'Love not too well the work of thy hands and the devices of thy heart; and remember that the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West, and cometh from the Sea.' But Turgon was become proud, and Gondolin as beautiful as a memory of Elven Tirion, and he trusted still in its secret and impregnable strength, though even a Vala should gainsay it; and after the Nirnaeth Arnoediad the people of that city desired never again to mingle in the woes of Elves and Men without, nor to return through dread and danger into the West. Shut behind their pathless and enchanted hills they suffered none to enter, though he fled from Morgoth hate-pursued; and tidings of the lands beyond came to them faint and far, and they heeded them little. The spies of Angband sought for them in vain; and their dwelling was as a rumour, and secret that none could find.>
Then said Turgon: ‘Every year at the lifting of winter have messengers repaired swiftly and by stealth down the river FG-T-26 {that is called} Sirion to the coasts of the Great Sea, and there builded them boats whereto have swans and gulls been harnessed or the strong wings of the wind, and these have sought back beyond the moon and sun to Valinor; but the paths thereto are forgotten and the highways faded from the world, and the seas and mountains are about it, and they that sit within in mirth reck little of the dread of {Melko}[Morgoth] or the sorrow of the world, but hide their land and weave about it inaccessible magic, that no tidings of evil come ever to their ears. Nay, enough of my people have for years untold gone out to the wide waters never to return, but have perished in the deep places or wander now lost in the shadows that have no paths; and at the coming of next year no more shall fare to the sea, but rather will we trust to ourselves and our city for the warding off of {Melko}[Morgoth]; and thereto have the Valar been of scant help aforetime.’
- FG-D-17: Are you okay with my idea to let the text as it was? I post only the condensed version were the dragons occure:
Quote:
... but even as Tuor comes nigh driving the Orcs, one of those brazen snakes heaves against the western wall and a great mass of it shakes and falls, and behind comes a creature of fire and Balrogs FG-B-05 {upon}[with] it. Flames gust from the jaws of that FG-D-16 worm and folk wither before it, and the wings of the helm of Tuor are blackened, but he stands and gathers about him his guard and all of the Arch and Swallow he can find, whereas on his right Ecthelion rallies the men of the Fountain of the South.
Now the Orcs again take heart from the coming of the drakes, and they mingle with the Balrogs that pour about the breach, and they assail the {Gondothlim}[Gondolindrim] grievously. ...
But so it is that few cannot fight always against the many, and Ecthelion's left arm got a sore rent from a whip of the Balrog’s and his shield fell to earth FG-D-17 even as that dragon of fire drew nigh amid the ruin of the walls. Then Ecthelion must lean on Tuor, and Tuor might not leave him, though the very feet of FG-D-18 the trampling beast were upon them, and they were like to be overborne: but Tuor hewed at a foot of the creature so that flame spouted forth, and that serpent screamed, lashing with its tail; and many of both Orcs and {Noldoli}[Noldor] got their death therefrom. Now Tuor gathered his might and lifted Ecthelion, and amid a remnant of the folk got thereunder and escaped the drake; yet dire was the killing of men that beast had wrought, and the {Gondothlim}[Gondolindrim] were sorely shaken.
What we have here is a type 2 (mechanical bronze dragon) breaking the wall and coming in together with a type 3 (creature of fire) and a Balrog. In FG-D-16 a 'worm' spat fire. From the gramitcal stand point that is the type 3 (creature of fire) just mentioned. Next both drakes are mentioned as heartening the Orcs. In FG-D-17 'that dragon of fire' must be the type 3 (creature of fire) mentioned before. But 'the very feet of the trampling beast' must be the type 2 (mechanical bronze Dragon) that had destroyed the wall, since type 3 (crature of fire) have no feet. Originaly we had supposed to eliminate FG-D-17. But I think now the text is clear enough to find out what I think is the meaning, if it is of any particular interest.

I think we found an agrement for all other points brought up in the recent discussion.

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Old 02-27-2013, 08:04 PM   #107
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FG-C-22: I think we have a usable transition now, so unless gondowe (or anyone else) objects, we will keep the poem.

FG-D-17: Yes, I agree with your last suggestion to leave the text as it was.

FG-T-24: This seems to be the last difficult point. There are several questions I'm wrestling with here:

- Should GA be interpreted as a rejection of the more bellicose counsel of Ulmo?
- Can ToY be interpreted in any way other than as a confirmation that Ulmo's counsel of war was still present?
- Is it possible to make our text ambiguous, so that it neither includes the counsel of war nor contradicts it?
- Would we be justified in going against the earlier decision, made by the larger group that was active at that time?

I am leaning toward including the counsel of war, more or less in line with the text as it stands in Findegil's last post, but that last question is troubling me. Also, it seems that Gondowe still prefers to omit that part of the counsel, and I'd prefer that the decision be made by unanimous consensus rather than by a 2-1 vote.
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Old 02-28-2013, 05:57 AM   #108
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FG-T-24: I am not going to answer your 4 questions on the spot. If I can make up my mind for answer at all, it has to be researched intensly. But I would like to give m oppinion on the last question and your wish for an 'unanimous consensus rather than by a 2-1 vote':

I agree fully that especially for a question like this were we go against a decision taken by a lager group of old have have a consensus. But when is that reached? Who is to be taken as an aktive member? Participation in the discussion is saddly limited.

My own participation in this project started with exacly such a case. I posted in the project to re-open the discussion about the mechanical dragons in FoG. I only succeded in the second attempt. But in the end the group did follow my arguments and the decision was changed. But we never made any rules for such a case.

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Old 02-28-2013, 09:03 PM   #109
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That's true, but this case is somewhat different from that of the mechanical monsters. In that case, you came along and presented a new and, ultimately, convincing argument that we had been too hasty in rejecting them. But in the case of Ulmo's counsel, we are basically just re-iterating arguments that were already considered here by you, Maedhros, and me.

As I said, though, I am rather leaning toward reversing the decision made there and including the counsel of war. I'm just being overly deliberative, as I often am.
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Old 03-03-2013, 05:04 AM   #110
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FG-C-22 About the poems (this and whatever else like Turin or Beren) I don’t opine because I think I don’t have knowings enaugth to reelaborate an English poem but I always use the translations in my version so I’m agree.
FG-D-17 i also agree.
About the 4 questions, I think the first three are answered in my previous posts, about the fourth It’s difficult for me because I wasn’t in that days involucred.
In other way the text as is stands in my opinion must be cutted so much, but I understand it’s difficult for you and still is valid in this case the fourth question of Aiwendil.
More or less it would be:
Quote:
FG-T-24 Then spake Tuor <Q30 Tuor spoke the embassy of Ulmo <TO in the hearing of all>, and something of the power and majesty of the Lord of Waters his voice had caught, so that all folk looked in wonder on him, and doubted that this were a Man of mortal race as he declared.>,{and Ulmo set power in his heart and majesty in his voice}. ‘Behold, O father of the City of Stone, I am bidden by him who maketh deep music in the Abyss, and who knoweth the mind of Elves and Men, to say unto thee that the {days of Release draw nigh. There have come to the ears of Ulmo whispers of your{ dwelling and your hill of} vigilance against the evil of {Melko}[Melkor], and he is glad: but his heart is wroth and the hearts of the Valar are angered who sit in the mountains of Valinor and look upon the world from the peak of Taniquetil, seeing the sorrow of the thraldom of the {Noldoli}[Elves] and the wanderings of Men; for {Melko}[Melkor] ringeth them in the Land of Shadows beyond {hills of iron}[Ered Wethrin]. Therefore have I been brought by a secret way to bid you number your hosts and prepare for battle, for the time is ripe.’ <Q30 {and}And he bade Turgon to send again his messengers into the West. Summons too should he send into the East and gather, if he might, Men (who were now multiplying and spreading on the earth) unto his banners; and for that task Tuor was most fit. 'Forget,' counselled Ulmo, 'the treachery of Uldor the accursed, and remember Hurin; for without mortal Men the Elves shall not prevail against the Balrogs and the Orcs.' Nor should the feud with the sons of Feanor be left unhealed; for this should be the last gathering of the hope of the {Gnomes}[Noldor], when every sword should count.>
FG-T-25 Then spake Turgon: ‘That will I not do, though it be the words of Ulmo and all the Valar. I will not adventure this my people against the terror of the Orcs, nor emperil my city against the fire of {Melko}[Morgoth].’
Then spake Tuor: ‘Nay, if thou dost not now dare greatly then will the Orcs dwell for ever and possess in the end most of the mountains of the Earth, and cease not to trouble both Elves and Men, even though by other means the Valar contrive hereafter to release the {Noldoli}[Noldor]; but if thou trust now to the Valar, though terrible the encounter, then shall the Orcs fall, and {Melko}[Melkor]'s power be minished to a little thing.’ <Q30 {and}And he foretold the healing of feuds, and friendship between Men and Elves, whereof the greatest good should come into the world, and the servants of Morgoth trouble it no more.>
But Turgon said that he was king of Gondolin and no will should force him against his counsel to emperil the dear labour of long ages gone; but Tuor said, for thus was he bidden by Ulmo who had feared the reluctance of Turgon: ‘Then am I bidden to say that men of the {Gondothlim}[Gondolindrim] repair swiftly and secretly down the river Sirion to the sea, and there build them boats and go seek back to Valinor: lo! the paths thereto are forgotten and the highways faded from the world, and the seas and mountains are about it, yet still dwell there the Elves on the hill of {Kôr}[Tuna] and the {Gods}[Valar] sit in Valinor, though their mirth is minished for sorrow{ and fear of Melko}, and they hide their land and weave about it inaccessible magic that no evil come to its shores. Yet still might thy messengers win there and turn their hearts that they rise in wrath and smite {Melko}[Melkor], and destroy the Hells of Iron that he has wrought beneath the Mountains of Darkness.’}<QS77 Curse of Mandos now hastened to its fulfilment, when all the works of the Noldor should perish; and he bade him depart, and abandon the fair and mighty city that he had built, and go down Sirion to the sea;> <TO {Ulmo's cloak would vanish when Tuor spoke the message to Turgon}[and when he had spoken, the cloak of Ulmo vanished.]>
<QS77 Then Turgon pondered long the counsel of Ulmo, and there came into his mind the words that were spoken to him in Vinyamar: 'Love not too well the work of thy hands and the devices of thy heart; and remember that the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West, and cometh from the Sea.' But Turgon was become proud, and Gondolin as beautiful as a memory of Elven Tirion, and he trusted still in its secret and impregnable strength, though even a Vala should gainsay it; and after the Nirnaeth Arnoediad the people of that city desired never again to mingle in the woes of Elves and Men without, nor to return through dread and danger into the West. Shut behind their pathless and enchanted hills they suffered none to enter, though he fled from Morgoth hate-pursued; and tidings of the lands beyond came to them faint and far, and they heeded them little. The spies of Angband sought for them in vain; and their dwelling was as a rumour, and secret that none could find.>
Then said Turgon: ‘Every year at the lifting of winter have messengers repaired swiftly and by stealth down the river FG-T-26 {that is called}Sirion to the coasts of the Great Sea, and there builded them boats whereto have swans and gulls been harnessed or the strong wings of the wind, and these have sought back beyond the moon and sun to Valinor; but the paths thereto are forgotten and the highways faded from the world, and the seas and mountains are about it, and they that sit within in mirth reck little of the dread of {Melko}[Morgoth] or the sorrow of the world, but hide their land and weave about it inaccessible magic, that no tidings of evil come ever to their ears. Nay, enough of my people have for years untold gone out to the wide waters never to return, but have perished in the deep places or wander now lost in the shadows that have no paths; {and at the coming of next year} no more shall fare to the sea, but rather will we trust to ourselves and our city for the warding off of {Melko}[Morgoth]; and thereto have the Valar been of scant help aforetime.’
{I think is with the new notation rules but sorry if it’s not very clear. The underlining text is deleted.}

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Last edited by gondowe; 03-04-2013 at 12:18 PM.
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Old 03-04-2013, 11:12 AM   #111
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Notation issue: Gondowe, I am sorry but it seems that Aiwendil and I were not entirely clear in our postings at the notation thread. I only remarked that it would have been more reader friendly to have underlining as deleted text. But Aiwendil and I agreed totally that it would cause to much confusion with all the text already given in the standard notification with {...} as deleted and ... as added for grammatical or metrical reason to change these standard notation, now. So pleas stick to the old system!

FG-T-24: As your text stands Gondowe, Tuor asked Turgon to leave together the city with all Gondolindrim and remove to the sea, but Turgon answered that he would not send messengers again to Valinor. For me that does not sound right.

Coming back to Aiwendils 4 questions, which I will number for reference sack a) to d):

a)
Quote:
Should GA be interpreted as a rejection of the more bellicose counsel of Ulmo?
The text of GA in its last version reads:
Quote:
And at the last by the power that Ulmo set upon them they came to the guarded gate of Gondolin. There Tuor was brought before the king, and spoke the counsel of Ulmo, bidding Turgon depart and abandon the fair and mighty city that he had built, and go down to the Sea. But Turgon would not listen to this counsel; and [Meglin later >] Glindur his sister-son spoke against Tuor. But Tuor was held in honour in Gondolin, for his kindred's sake.
This is very compressed. To extract from this a rejection seem very difficult for me.

b)
Quote:
Can ToY be interpreted in any way other than as a confirmation that Ulmo's counsel of war was still present?
The text referred to is the entry for year 511 emended to year 509 in Text ‘C’. It reads:
Quote:
The Second Kinslaying. The Sons of Feanor assail[ed] Dior, and he was slain; slain also were Celegorm and Curufin and Cranthir. Eldun and Elrun sons of Dior were left in the woods to starve. Elwing escaped and came with the Silmaril to the Mouths of Sirion. Ulmo sends a last warning to Gondolin, which now alone is left; but Turgon will have no alliance with any after the kinslaying of Doriath. Maeglin Eol's son, sister-son of Turgon, was taken in the hills, and betrayed Gondolin to Morgoth.
in the previous text ‘B’ only the last warning of Ulmo was spoken of. But in the following text ‘D2’ this element is missing completely. The Second Kinslaying is moved to Yule of 506-507, but no reaction of Turgon to this event is given. The capture Maeglin is moved to 509.
Christopher Tolkien does compare this with Q30 were after Turgon is bidden to make war on Morgoth it is said of Turogn after hearing of the Second Kinslaying that ‘he shut his ear to word of the woes without; and he vowed to march never at the side of any son of Feanor.’
Again these accounts are very much compressed. That in one of them the ‘alliance with the Feanorians’ is mentioned at all is in my view much more telling then it missing in all others. But this is no straight forward answer to Aiwendils question. I have to confess that the straight forward answer is: Yes, it could be that Turgon does only think of future events in the liking of the Union of Maedhros. But taken together with the story in Q30 where the reference is clearly to the war that Ulmo urged Turgon to wage, this seems more then unlikely.

C:
Quote:
Is it possible to make our text ambiguous, so that it neither includes the counsel of war nor contradicts it?
In principal yes, but it could be that the result is very awkward. I think we would have to shorten the message to some blank statement that Tuor delivered it and Turgons answer to a blank refusal without giving much reason (since that would hint at the message itself). As the text was before we restarted the discussion the bidding to war was not included. The impression was that this would be an exclusion, even so one could make the argument that not every word was reported and therefore the bidding of Ulmo to march forth could have been still part of the unreported message. But this is very constructed.

D):
Quote:
Would we be justified in going against the earlier decision, made by the larger group that was active at that time?
This question does need a kind of general answer. It will come again and again as long as the group working on the project does change. And I hope it will change, since now that can only mean to have more participants. Whenever new members came in we urged them re-open any discussion were they thought their own interpretation of the text were not represented in the discussion. Why should we discussion a point anew, if we were unwilling to change a decision? So let us set some rules for such cases:
- There is no restriction for farther discussions. That means anybody can and should reopen a discussion if she/he feels that a valid point was not accurately covered in the previous discussions.
- A former decision found by silent agreement of the former members of the working staff, can be changed by a spoken unanimous consensus or voting of the active members.
- A former decision made by voting of the former members, might be changed, if a new counting of old and new votes would change the decision, or if the staff has changed drastically and new and convincing arguments have come up, by a calculation system in which the votes of all the active members together have the same weight as the votes of all now inactive members.
- A former decision taken by a spoken unanimous consensus of the former members can only be changed if:
a) New and convincing arguments have come up, that were not heard of in the former discussion
AND
b) the group of active members finds a new spoken unanimous consensus.
A corollary to these rules is that the group should try to get as many active members in such re-decisions as possible. Meaning that semi-active members should get a special invitation to speak up on such points

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Old 03-04-2013, 12:14 PM   #112
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I have corrected the post, with the old system and I had forgotten to delete "and at the coming of next year" sentence at the end of the quotation. This have good sense.

Sorry but it`s very difficult for me to read the text in the screen and sorry for the confusion in the system of editing.

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Old 03-06-2013, 09:56 PM   #113
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I've been thinking more about the issue I raised in question D, and I think Findegil is right that we should answer it in a general way. And after trying out various permutations in my head, I think that the best way to go is something along the lines of Findegil's suggestion. Therefore I propose the following as an amendment to our principles:

Quote:
8. a. There is no restriction on further discussion of questions that have already been decided; anyone may re-open a discussion, and is encouraged to do so if he or she thinks that a relevant point was not adequately considered.

b. A decision made by silent agreement of the members may be changed by an explicit unanimous consensus or a majority vote of the active members.

c. A decision made by voting may be changed if a new counting of old and new votes would alter the outcome or, if the active membership has changed drastically and previously unconsidered arguments on the subject have been made, by a simple vote among the active members.

d. A decision made by an explicit unanimous agreement may be changed if previoulsy unconsidered arguments on the subject have been made and the active members come to a new explicit unanimous consensus.

A corollary to these rules is that the group should try to involve as many active members in such re-decisions as possible, for which reason semi-active members should be specially invited to speak on such points.
I think that this is effectively the same as Findegil's proposal; I've just changed the language slightly to make it clearer.

If we adopt these rules, that gives us a framework for deciding about such cases, which is immensely helpful. Still, it leaves me a little bit unsure about where the decision at hand (concerning Ulmo's counsel of war) fits in. Do we consider our former decision to exclude it to have been made by a vote or by unanimous agreement?
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Old 03-07-2013, 05:22 AM   #114
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There is only 1 substantial diverence between your formulation and my one: In the case of a old voting and a drastically changed membership and previously unconsidered arguments: You give the new membership the right to vote simply, while I wanted a system in which the votes of the now inactive members would still be counted. May be my system was made clear. Therefore I will give some exampels:

A) Old voting: 10 members voted, case was simple a or b, result a=8; b=2
new voting: from the 10 voters of old 2 are still active both had of old voted with a, 2 new members vote also result a=1; b=4

To get a chance to overcome the old vote at all the active member ship does need more wieght on the votes (which is considered justified because they have heard all arguments). In the old vote 10 members had voted in the new only 5 therefore:
Weights: lowest common multiple of 10 and 5 is 10 => old votes 10/10=1, new votes 10/5=2
Members activ in both votings have of course only one vote and that is counted in the new wiegth.
Result:
a: ( 8 votes of old minus 2 votes changed by still active members ) multiplied by wieght 1 plus 1 new vote multiplied by weight 2:
(8-2)x1+1x2=8
b: ( 2 votes of old minus 0 votes changed by still active members ) multiplied by wieght 1 plus 4 new vote multiplied by weight 2:
(2-0)x1+4x2=10
Result changed from a to b.

B) Old voting: 9 members voted, case was a, b, c; result a=4; b=3; c=2
new voting: from the 9 voters of old 3 are still active 2 had voted b, 1 voted with c.
3 new members voted
Result a=2; b=3; c=1

Result:
Weights: lowest common multiple of 9 and 6 is 18 => old votes 18/9=2, new votes 18/6=3
a: ( 4 votes of old minus 0 votes changed by still active members ) multiplied by wieght 2 plus 2 new votes multiplied by weight 3:
(4-0)x2+2x3=14
b: ( 3 votes of old minus 2 votes changed by still active members ) multiplied by wieght 2 plus 3 new votes multiplied by weight 3:
(3-2)x2+3x3=11
c: ( 1 votes of old minus 1 votes changed by still active members ) multiplied by wieght 2 plus 1 new vote multiplied by weight 3:
(1-1)x2+1x3=3
Result unchanged a even so b had a relative majority in the group of active members.

The mathematics are a bit complex, but the result especially in narrow cases does take the old votes more into account. But I am not adamant on these, if the simpler solution is wanted I can go with that as well.

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Old 03-10-2013, 01:17 PM   #115
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Ah, you are right. I was thinking only of the case where there are only two options and no overlap between old and new members, in which case your proposal is the same as my simpler one. (Don't worry about the math; voting systems are actually a minor interest of mine, and in fact you should all be glad I haven't gone so far as to propose some sort of Condorcet method for deciding contentious issues!)

I think your proposal is probably the better one. So my proposed addendum to the Principles is then:

Quote:
8. a. There is no restriction on further discussion of questions that have already been decided; anyone may re-open a discussion, and is encouraged to do so if he or she thinks that a relevant point was not adequately considered.

b. A decision made by silent agreement of the members may be changed by an explicit unanimous consensus or a majority vote of the active members.

c. A decision made by voting may be changed if a new counting of old and new votes would alter the outcome or, if the active membership has changed drastically and previously unconsidered arguments on the subject have been made, by a calculation system in which the votes of all the active members together have the same weight as the votes of all now inactive members.

d. A decision made by an explicit unanimous agreement may be changed if previoulsy unconsidered arguments on the subject have been made and the active members come to a new explicit unanimous consensus.

A corollary to these rules is that the group should try to involve as many active members in such re-decisions as possible, for which reason semi-active members should be specially invited to speak on such points.
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Old 03-10-2013, 03:44 PM   #116
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I have to beg your pardon. It seems I formulated my own idea baddly. The example I made did not refelct what I wrote. But I am happy with mathematic and not with the formulation.

The formulation should be:
Quote:
c. A decision made by voting may be changed if a new counting of old and new votes would alter the outcome or, if the active membership has changed drastically and previously unconsidered arguments on the subject have been made, by a calculation system in which the old and new voting would have the same weight, but in which from the old voting only votes of the now inactive members are counted.
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Old 03-12-2013, 09:41 PM   #117
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Right - however, the old votes of the members who are still active when the new vote takes place do get taken into consideration when determining the relative weighting of old and new votes (or at least, that's what appears to be assumed in the examples you gave); but the principle you propose sounds to me as though it is saying that the votes of those who are still currently active are subtracted before calculating the weighting. But actually, that may be the better way to do it. Then in your example A, the weights would be 5 for the old votes and 8 for the new votes, and the result would be the same; but in your example B, the weights for old and new votes would be equal, and the result would be changed.
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Old 03-13-2013, 07:31 PM   #118
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All quotes by Aiwendil:
Quote:
however, the old votes of the members who are still active when the new vote takes place do get taken into consideration when determining the relative weighting of old and new votes
Right and that is how I wanted it.
Quote:
but the principle you propose sounds to me as though it is saying that the votes of those who are still currently active are subtracted before calculating the weighting.
So it is still badly formulated.
Quote:
But actually, that may be the better way to do it.
I don't agree. My idea was to give the old votes of now inactive members a slightly lesser wieght, since they did not hear the new arguments. The number of the still active members now revoting seems to me a good indicator of how much more wieght a new vote should have. The idea of that was if none of the old voters would still be active old and new voting should have equal weight, since none of new voters would have heared and consider the old arguments 'live', so with the possibility of requestioning and discussion. And on the other hand if all old voters would still be active the old votes would all be retaken. Anyway a still active member would re-tack a vote with the old weight and give one with the new wieght.

With your propose a single voter of old now inactive would become a very high weight.

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Old 03-15-2013, 11:50 AM   #119
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Okay, you make a good argument. How about this:

Quote:
c. A decision made by voting may be changed if a new counting of old and new votes would alter the outcome or, if the active membership has changed drastically and previously unconsidered arguments on the subject have been made, by a calculation system in which both old and new votes are counted, with the new votes weighted so that their sum is equal to the total number of old votes, with the old votes of those members who are also casting new votes counted for the purpose of determining the weighting but not counted in determining the result.
This should replicate the behaviour you want exactly. The only slight change is that I've replaced the vague idea of active vs. inactive members with the unambiguous one of members who are casting new votes and those who are not.
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Old 03-16-2013, 05:36 PM   #120
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Perfect.

So we have done that general work. Now what does that mean for the point at hand?

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