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Old 01-02-2003, 08:35 AM   #1
lindil
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Sting * *A New Project ~~~ Revising the Ainulindale* *

Project members [and bold guests!] can post their initial brainstorming re: the Ainulindale here, until such time as the Drafting really gets going.

For those interested in possibly joining the project please do not post here ! Instead please see the **General Comments and sign-up thread** [ and of course the **FAQ/Intro to the project** 'thread' at the top of the forum] for more details about how to go about becoming a project member.

Do note however that this project of the 'Council for the Creation of a Revised Silmarillion' was inaugarated specifically to facillitate the incorpoaration of newer members [as the FOG project had become more or less too complex for many new members to jump right into].

Perhaps someone who has already chewed on the Ainulindale can post a summary of what we are likely to be looking at in terms of possible changes to the final Flat World HoME X and Silm 77/01 texts?

[ January 02, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]
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Old 01-03-2003, 04:14 AM   #2
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The main idea so far is that flat earth should be kept, with a possible footnote that "thus was known to men, but eldar knew better", since it would keep the trees and all the rest. More to come [I hope] soon
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Old 01-03-2003, 08:47 AM   #3
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I've just had a look over the Ainulindale texts in HoMe X, and I think that only very minor emendations will be needed. I think that we should basicly use the Ainulindale D text with all the latest corrections and changes. The only two real questions I can see are these: what to do with the Pengolod-Aelfwine framework, and whether to make certain small adjustments to tense and restorations of one or two bits that may have been left out from Ainulindale C.
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Old 01-06-2003, 11:51 AM   #4
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One other general issue which may come up here, or at the latest by the Valaquenta is the question of inserting details and elaborations from older texts.

This is not so much a problem with the FoG as we have to rely on BoLT to even write it, but with the early Silm chapters and such were JRRT had in many cases already expanded his HoME V era work, what are we to do about adding in say details from the making od the Sun and the Moon? this may or may not come up as regards the Ainulindale, but an overview of the Silmarillions from HoME and later may provide some interesting and relevant expansions.
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Old 01-09-2003, 01:26 AM   #5
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Sun and Moon Question

maybe again both "mannish" (leaves of the trees) and "elvish" (actual planet and star (as a footnote maybe)) versions can be given?
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Old 01-09-2003, 12:01 PM   #6
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Hi, all...Thanks for having me.

Let me jump in with my thoughts....Although, the round earth version was intriguing, and fits with the "real world", by including a footnote, Ii think, would invalidate later stories where the earth is finally made round. I think we should just except the world was flat and forget about modern science. If we not that the elves knew the world was always round (as science has shown us) then would be mave to put footnotes that dragons, etc, never existed? Maybe I am not wording this right, but basically, lets not try to fit the stories into the "real world". You could always add an appendix at the end, that there were conflicting stories (from some other ancient source.) and add the myth transformed as well as any other writings that don't quite fit.

Anyway, that's my two cents.

BTW, Let me introduce myself. I am Frank. I don't have a cool elf nickname, but I have been reading Tolkien since the late 80's. I may not be a Tolkien scholar, but I pationate about his work.
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Old 01-09-2003, 02:31 PM   #7
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I'm also strongly inclined to do only a flat earth version. I fear two problems may arise from trying to do both. The first is simply that we would have twice as much work to do and would be forced to divide our time and effort. The second, and more serious, is that consideration of a round earth version may lead to complications for us in the flat earth version. Many other issues that are only tangentially related to the round vs. flat issue would fall into question. A round earth version would end up being a completely independent project, requiring rewrites of every chapter; and it would be hopelessly contradictory with the flat earth version in many respects.
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Old 01-09-2003, 03:22 PM   #8
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As jallanite stated [ a former project leader and Moderator]
Quote:
this is to be a "Sun and Moon were fruit and flower" version.
I think all of the principle players in this endeavor have been in agreement re; this being a Flat Earth Silmarillion revision. Not that we are against a round world version, but everyone i know who has loked at it [ with the notable exception of Saulotus/bobwehad...] thinks far to much violence is done to the remaining early chapters of the Silmarillion.

JRRT simply did not give us enough textual material to flesh out the many needed changes.

So I think we are on solid ground by stating unequivocably that the current revisions are all Flat-Earth versions. This
does not mean that relevant details or passages [ that are not themselves Round world] from a Round-Earth text could not be incorporated into one of our revsions.
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Old 01-13-2003, 09:40 PM   #9
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I wanted to bring this up. From the Book of Lost Tales I: The Music of the Ainur
Quote:
The idea of Elvish rebirth in their own children is here formally stated, and the different fates of Elves and Men. In this connection, the following curious matter may be mentioned. Early in the text just given (p. 50) occurs the sentence: 'It is said that a mightier [music] far shall be woven before the seat of Ilúvatar by the choirs of both Ainur and the sons of Men after the Great End', and in the concluding sentence of the text: 'Yet while the sons of Men will after the passing of things of a certainty join in the Second Music of the Ainur, what Ilúvatar has devised for the Eldar beyond the world's end he has not revealed even to the Valar, and Melko ю has not discovered it.' Now in the first revision of the Ainulindalë (which dates from the 1930s) the first of these sentences was changed to read: '... by the choirs of the Ainur and the Children of Ilúvatar after the end of days', whereas the second remained, in this essential, unchanged. This remained the case right through to the final version. It is possible that the change in the first passage was unintentional, the substitution of another common phrase, and that this was never subsequently picked up. However, in the published work (pp. 15, 42) I left the two passages as they stand.
My question is, can it be that it was a slip, that is was only the Sons of Men that will join with the Ainur in the Second Music. I mean, if the Valar don't know the fate of Elves, how would they know that the Elves too in conjuction with Men would sing too with the Ainur at the End? It seems kind of weird to me.
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Old 01-14-2003, 06:36 AM   #10
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Yes, I think it was a slip only. If the Elves did know what Eru had planed for them after the end of Arda, than what is all Finrods talk about the slowfooted hunter in the Athrabeth about?
And his estel pictures some othing else than singing with the Ainur.

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Old 01-14-2003, 10:01 AM   #11
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I think it was quite likely a slip of the pen, though it's also quite possible that Tolkien was reconsidering the fate of the Elves. I'm a bit wary about changing it. Anyway, "Children of Iluvatar" could refer to both Elves and Men, or it could refer just to Men. If, for example, I say "Elves", I could be referring to all Elves, or to some specific Elves, or to a group or type of Elves. The text as published, then, has the virtue of ambiguity.
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Old 01-14-2003, 11:45 AM   #12
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Quote:
I think it was quite likely a slip of the pen, though it's also quite possible that Tolkien was reconsidering the fate of the Elves. I'm a bit wary about changing it. Anyway, "Children of Iluvatar" could refer to both Elves and Men, or it could refer just to Men. If, for example, I say "Elves", I could be referring to all Elves, or to some specific Elves, or to a group or type of Elves. The text as published, then, has the virtue of ambiguity.
Hmmmmmmmmmmm. So, when Tolkien refers to the Children of Ilúvatar, do you think he refers only to Men or to both Elves and Men?

[ January 14, 2003: Message edited by: Maédhros ]
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Old 01-15-2003, 04:37 AM   #13
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I think he refers to Elves and Men. So the Orc's multiplaction like of the manner of the children of Illuvutar, means they reproduced like Elves AND Men.
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Old 01-15-2003, 09:14 AM   #14
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Aren't the Children explicitly referred to in the Aiunlindalë as being Elves and Men, since none of the Ainur had any part in their making?

Also, as has been stated before, using a flat-world version would avoid all the difficulties that would arise from having Arda round from the beginning, most notably the drowning of Numenor and the removal of Valinor from the circles of the world and all the associated events.
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Old 01-15-2003, 11:13 AM   #15
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I apologize if I didn't make myself clear. There is no question that "Children of Iluvatar" refers to Elves and Men. My point was that, in this specific instance, the contradiction between the two statements in the Ainulindale can be somewhat artificially resolved by seeing "Children of Iluvatar" as ambiguous. It need not refer to all the Children of Iluvatar. This is a very forced explanation, but it does mean that we can't simply rule out the possibility of leaving the two seemingly contradictory statements as they are.
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Old 01-15-2003, 06:37 PM   #16
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There is no question that "Children of Iluvatar" refers to Elves and Men. My point was that, in this specific instance, the contradiction between the two statements in the Ainulindale can be somewhat artificially resolved by seeing "Children of Iluvatar" as ambiguous.
I think that in that instance the Children of Ilúvatar refers only to Men. Do most or all the members think that it refers to Men too?
If we think that the statement refers to Men, why the usage of the Term Children of Ilúvatar (that comprises Elves and Men) be used. Isn't that complicating the interpretation of the Ainulindalë?
I agree with the conception of a flat earth too.
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Old 01-16-2003, 07:10 AM   #17
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Quote:
I think that in that instance the Children of Ilúvatar refers only to Men. Do most or all the members think that it refers to Men too?
In this instance, it seems to refer only to Men. But, since Tolkien never revised it, even through the final edition, I would personally be kind of leery of changing it to just something like "Children of Men". However, this may just be my random bursts from not doing my homework. I'm going to go home and read BoLT and QS77.

I have a feeling that this debate is going to continue for a veeeerrrry long time, just like every other discussion on this site.
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Old 01-16-2003, 09:04 AM   #18
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that's what votes are for [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]
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Old 01-16-2003, 09:16 AM   #19
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In my humble opinion, the round earth mythology should be kept, along with the creation of the Sun and the Moon prior to the making of the two trees. I want this, because I feel that the coming of men should be put further back, due to the inconstancies of some the time period between man’s awakening and their excavation to Beleriand, some 310 years, in which quite a few years have to go by for man to initially explore the earth, to meet and be corrupted by Melkor, and for some of them to revolt against this. 310 years, is in my opinion wholly unsatisfactory, assuming they awoke at the rising of the sun.
So, the Valar could remove to Valinor and Varda could construct her dome around Aman, thus blocking out the tarnished sun, but Aman cannot be light be stars only, thus the need for the two trees. Varda, said to have the ‘greatest knowledge of the music’ (Well, her Manwe and Mandos) must sense the fact that the Elves must awake soon, and she could construct some new constellations, whilst Manwe blows away the clouds/mists of Melkor and the elves awake. But, what I want to know is where men got the whole sun/moon mythology from? Why would the Noldor lie to them? But, if the majority of the board is for the Trees-> Sun/Moon idea I will agree to that.
We should get rid of the whole Pengolod/Aelfwine framework, since it simply clogs up the story, and it would be easier to read with without Pengolod saying “And, so Aelfwine”, or something like that every so often. So it should be in the style of the Silmarillion. If we are following the Ainulindale D version, then one notable correction is to change Eru’s words, form the “halls of Aman” to the halls of Ea”, something that Christopher Tolkien picked up on. Also, what should Orome’s horns be named-Valaroma or Rombaras?
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Old 01-19-2003, 08:33 PM   #20
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So, the Valar could remove to Valinor and Varda could construct her dome around Aman, thus blocking out the tarnished sun, but Aman cannot be light be stars only, thus the need for the two trees. Varda, said to have the ‘greatest knowledge of the music’ (Well, her Manwe and Mandos) must sense the fact that the Elves must awake soon, and she could construct some new constellations, whilst Manwe blows away the clouds/mists of Melkor and the elves awake.
where did you get this version? what tarnished sun? man, i really need to get more books, or something. anyways, never have i found anything refering to a tarnished sun, nor the sun and moon coming before the trees.

EDIT: can some of you give me your AIM names if you have them? i would like to discuss things with people over AIM too.

EDIT 2: If this in anyway helpful (not really), i just realized that i have have read BoLT 1 & 2 (own them in fact), and personally, they just don't fit in with the sil and all the other works of tolkien. he had Beren as a gnome for ..... ahh!!!!!! sorry. anyways, when is anybody gonna post here?

[ January 20, 2003: Message edited by: Eru ]

[ January 20, 2003: Message edited by: Eru ]
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Old 02-08-2003, 09:39 AM   #21
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I am copying the parts of the Ainulindale discussion from the private forum that do not relate specifically to the text posted there. That discussion should really take place here.

Maedhros:
Quote:
I think that this have been discussed earlier, but all of the references of Ælfwine, Eriol had been discarded. So this must means that Rúmil must go too. If you are a lover of Book of Lost Tales, it's a shame, but I think that it's necessary.

§10, it says that:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Then the Ainur were afraid, and they did not yet comprehend the words that were said to them;
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


How could the Ainur be afraid, when later in the Quenta Silmarillion, it states that Melkor was the only Vala that knew fear.
§8, it says:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In the midst of this strife, whereat the halls of Ilúvatar shook and a tremor ran out into the silences yet unmoved
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Does this means that the Ainur had some place to dwell then. Certainly Halls of Ilúvatar is not the same as the Void, or is it?
From this note it seems that they are a different thing:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But it is perfectly explicit that the Ainur, created by Iluvatar (§1), dwelt in 'fair regions' that Ilúvatar had made for them (§10); some of them remained 'beyond the confines of the World' (§21)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

§4 it says:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Never since have the Ainur made any music like to this music, though it has been said that a greater still shall be made before Ilúvatar by the choirs of the Ainur and the Children of Ilúvatar after the end of days.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


You have heard this complaint of mine before, but I still think that Children of Ilúvatar means only Men and not Elves and Men.
Eru:
Quote:
I think that this have been discussed earlier, but all of the references of Ælfwine, Eriol had been discarded. So this must means that Rúmil must go too. If you are a lover of Book of Lost Tales, it's a shame, but I think that it's necessary.

§10, it says that:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Then the Ainur were afraid, and they did not yet comprehend the words that were said to them;
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


How could the Ainur be afraid, when later in the Quenta Silmarillion, it states that Melkor was the only Vala that knew fear.
§8, it says:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In the midst of this strife, whereat the halls of Ilúvatar shook and a tremor ran out into the silences yet unmoved
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Does this means that the Ainur had some place to dwell then. Certainly Halls of Ilúvatar is not the same as the Void, or is it?
From this note it seems that they are a different thing:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But it is perfectly explicit that the Ainur, created by Iluvatar (§1), dwelt in 'fair regions' that Ilúvatar had made for them (§10); some of them remained 'beyond the confines of the World' (§21)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

§4 it says:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Never since have the Ainur made any music like to this music, though it has been said that a greater still shall be made before Ilúvatar by the choirs of the Ainur and the Children of Ilúvatar after the end of days.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


You have heard this complaint of mine before, but I still think that Children of Ilúvatar means only Men and not Elves and Men.
Maedhros:
Quote:
Eru, I'm a little confused about your statement concerning the fear of the Ainur. Are you saying that we should changed the word afraid to something else?
Also, if there are no objections, I will use another color (yellos) to differentiate the parts concerning Ælfwine and Rúmil, as per acordance that they are no longer part of the Ainulindalë.
P.S. It's been very quiet this discussion.
Eru:
Quote:
Eru, I'm a little confused about your statement concerning the fear of the Ainur. Are you saying that we should changed the word afraid to something else?
Also, if there are no objections, I will use another color (yellos) to differentiate the parts concerning Ælfwine and Rúmil, as per acordance that they are no longer part of the Ainulindalë.
P.S. It's been very quiet this discussion.
Aiwendil:
Quote:
Maedhros: I wonder if this discussion should perhaps take place in the public forum? That would certainly maximize input.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think that this have been discussed earlier, but all of the references of Ælfwine, Eriol had been discarded. So this must means that Rúmil must go too. If you are a lover of Book of Lost Tales, it's a shame, but I think that it's necessary.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am just the slightest bit hesitant about this, since Aelfwine did indeed appear in a number of late writings. But certainly there is a preponderance of evidence showing that he must go. So I agree with this deletion.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How could the Ainur be afraid, when later in the Quenta Silmarillion, it states that Melkor was the only Vala that knew fear.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is a very good question, but not, I think, one that need concern us overmuch. There are a few possible solutions, though each, I think, is a bit of a stretch. First of all, it's possible that "the Ainur" refers not to all the Ainur, but to the majority of them. In this case, it might not include those that later became the Valar. Second, it's possible that the statement that Melkor was the only Vala who knew fear describes the state of affairs in Arda, and does not proclude the Valar being afraid before the creation of Arda (i.e., before they were "Valar"). Third, it's possible, as Eru pointed out, that "fear" means something subtly different in the two instances. It's even conceivable that the hypothetical Quenya original used two different words, but the translator (Aelfwine, or Bilbo, or whoever) failed to retain the distinction.

Of course, all of these are rather artificial answers, and none can be taken as "true" with anything like validity. The fact of the matter is that we have an apparent contradiction within the text.

But, again, I don't think that this should concern us. We ought, I think, merely to let it stand. Our task is not to edit, revise, or correct JRRT's extant texts. We may - indeed we must - reconcile contradictions that occur between different texts. But in this case, the contradiction is entirely self-contained and has no bearing on any other textual decisions. On top of that, we simply have no good way of resolving the contradiction. Eru suggests replacing "fear" in the first instance with "bewildered" or something similar. But in this case, we are deciding in favor of the "subtle distinction" rationalization, and we might as well just leave "fear" and rationalize it the same way.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Does this means that the Ainur had some place to dwell then. Certainly Halls of Ilúvatar is not the same as the Void, or is it?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As above, I think that this is a good question but one that we need not be concerned with. I always imagined, though, that the halls of Iluvatar were indeed a physical place distinct from the void that surrounded them. Both void and halls were "beyond the confines of the world"; i.e., beyond the confines of Arda.

A more difficult puzzle is the relation between Arda, Ea, and the Void, particularly the reference to Arda being placed "amidst the innumberable stars". There is, as I believe Christopher points out, no good way to reconcile this with the view that the stars are drops of light in some kind of celestial dome. But that's simply the way the Ainulindale is, and I think that again we should follow Christopher's precedent and not adjust the text.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You have heard this complaint of mine before, but I still think that Children of Ilúvatar means only Men and not Elves and Men.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Correct me if I'm wrong (I unfortunately don't have the books with me at the moment), but my understanding of the concern here is that "Children of Iluvatar" may have been a transcription error in D for "Children of Men" in C. This is, in my opinion, the only valid justification for making an alteration. If Tolkien intended "Children of Iluvatar", then we have no right to change it. The only question, then, is whether it was an error. I am of the opinon that it most likely was not - he tended to be very attentive to such details as this, and usually any such change was rather premeditated.

Concerning this, Eru quoted the Second Prophecy of Mandos and said:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
if this version is to be beilived, then the Elves will dwell forever on 'Arda Unmarred'. (my name for it, since Arda Marred will be destroyed and then remade, and with Melkor/Morgoth dead, then it will no longer be marred...). anyways, i hope that makes a certain amount of since.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I must point out that this passage is of dubious validity at best. The fullest (and I think latest) treatment of the fate of Elves occurs in the Athrabeth, where it is made clear that the Elves have no knowledge of what will happen to them beyond the End.
Maedhros:
Quote:
I have highlited the parts that deal with either Ælfwine and Rúmil in yellow and also parts such as Palúrien which I believe was changed to Keméntari.
If there are other changes, please feel free to mentioned them.
Eru:
Quote:
some of the information in the passages with Rumil and Aelfwine are valuble. are they absolutely nessecessary to take out? couldn't they be said in a slightly different way. if not, then i will agree with Maedrhos.
Maedhros:
Quote:
What I meant was for the references of Ælfwine and Rúmil to be taken of the text.
Eru:
Quote:
ah, i get it. so basically, making th info. the same, without reference to those two.
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Old 02-08-2003, 09:54 AM   #22
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A few notes:

Section 15: Here the reading of D is "Halls of Aman", which was not corrected to "Ea" with the general change Aman>Ea. Christopher notes that this "was obviously an oversight". It should be corrected to "Halls of Ea".

Section 16: Christopher notes that an emendation here in C>D results in a somewhat strange shift of tense. "the . . . delight of Aule was in the deed of making . . . wherefore he gives and hoards not, and is free from care . . ."

We might emend the present tense to the past, or we might let it stand.

Section 17: Christopher notes the omission of "Behold the towers and mansions of ice!" and says that it may have been inadvertant. We must decide whether to add this back in or not.

It also remains for us to decide how to deal with each of the references to Rumil, Pengolod, and Aelfwine.
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Old 02-09-2003, 09:55 PM   #23
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Quote:
Section 15: Here the reading of D is "Halls of Aman", which was not corrected to "Ea" with the general change Aman>Ea. Christopher notes that this "was obviously an oversight". It should be corrected to "Halls of Ea".
From Morgoth's Ring: Ainulindalë
As usual, Aiwendil is correct. I have made the necessary change.
Quote:
Section 16: Christopher notes that an emendation here in C>D results in a somewhat strange shift of tense. "the . . . delight of Aule was in the deed of making . . . wherefore he gives and hoards not, and is free from care . . ."
I would change the was to is: but the <font color="FFFF00"> delight and pride of Aulë is in the deed of making.
Quote:
Section 17: Christopher notes the omission of "Behold the towers and mansions of ice!" and says that it may have been inadvertant. We must decide whether to add this back in or not.
I would leave it out.
Quote:
It also remains for us to decide how to deal with each of the references to Rúmil, Pengoloð, and Ælfwine.
I think that a vote is in order then, but I think there is a thread about Ælfwine in this section of the forum. I think that his reference should be taken out of the project.
From Morgoth's Ring: Later Quentas
Quote:
§14 Palúrien > Kementári by a pencilled change on LQ 2. This was as it were a casual change, not made in §15 (nor in §5). Kementári occurs in the Valaquenta (p. 202).
I will change Palúrien to Kementári in the text.

[ February 09, 2003: Message edited by: Maédhros ]
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Old 02-11-2003, 06:13 PM   #24
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I would change the was to is: but the delight and pride of Aulë is in the deed of making.
Hmm. In the preceding sentences, though, the past tense is used. My inclination would be that if we are going to change anything, we should change the present to past.

Quote:
I would leave it out.
Agreed. Though it's a nice bit of description, we unfortunately have no way of knowing whether Tolkien excluded it inadvertantly or intentionally.

Quote:
I think that a vote is in order then, but I think there is a thread about Ælfwine in this section of the forum. I think that his reference should be taken out of the project.
I don't think there's any doubt about this. I merely meant that we must decide how to deal with each particular instance. I suppose I'll take a stab at that. If anyone else wants to try any alternatives, though, go ahead.

Here are my recommendations:

{ } Material to be deleted.
Italics Material inserted for grammatical reasons or as editorial bridge.

Authorial Credit:
Quote:
This was made by Rúmil of Túna in the Elder Days. {It is here written as it was spoken in Eressëa to Ælfwine by Pengoloð the Sage.} To it are added the further words that Pengoloð {spoke} wrote {at that time} concerning the Valar, the Eldar and the Atani; of which more is said thereafter
If we decide to exclude the matter that follows section 28, we should also omit the reference to Pengolodh here:

Quote:
This was made by Rúmil of Túna in the Elder Days. {It is here written as it was spoken in Eressëa to Ælfwine by Pengoloð the Sage. To it are added the further words that Pengoloð spoke at that time concerning the Valar, the Eldar and the Atani; of which more is said thereafter}
I assume that the removal of Aelfwine does not imply a change in the authorship of the Ainulindale - there is no reason why it cannot still have been written by Rumil, and the last few sections added by Pengolodh.

Section 0 (for lack of a better term):

Quote:
{First he recited to him the Ainulindalë as Rúmil made it.}
I think this should simply be deleted. I see no way of revising it, nor a need to.

Section 14
Quote:
But {thou must understand, Ælfwine, that} when the Ainur had beheld this habitation in a vision and had seen the Children of Ilúvatar arise therein, then many of the most mighty of the Holy Ones bent all their thought and their desire towards that place.
Simple deletion of reference to Aelfwine.

Section 21
Quote:
And therefore{, Ælfwine, we name them} they are named the Valar, the Powers of the World.
This is what Christopher does, and I am inclined to agree with him. The other option is:

Quote:
And therefore{, Ælfwine,} we name them they are named the Valar, the Powers of the World.
But I think that "we" is out of place when this is no longer the spoken words of Pengolodh (which may paraphrase Rumil), but the written words of Rumil.

Section 25
Quote:
But {think not, Ælfwine, that} the shapes wherein the Great Ones array themselves are not at all times like unto the shapes of kings and queens of the Children of Ilúvatar; for at whiles they may clothe them in their own thought, made visible in forms terrible and wonderful. {And I myself, long years agone, in the land of the Valar have seen Yavanna in the likeness of a Tree; and the beauty and majesty of that form could not be told in words, not unless all the things that grow in the earth, from the least unto the greatest, should sing in choir together, making unto their queen an offering of song to be laid before the throne of Ilúvatar.}
I regret losing the bit about Yavanna taking the form of a tree, but I can see no way to retain it that would not sound awkward.

Section 27
Quote:
and of those tumults {we} the elves know but little; for {know thou, Ælfwine,} what {I have} has been declared {unto thee} is come from the Valar themselves, with whom {we of} the Eldalië spoke in the land of Valinor, and {we were} by whom they were instructed {by them}; but little would they ever tell of the days of war ere the coming of the Elves. But this {said Rúmil in the end of the Ainulindalë which I have recounted to thee} is told among the Eldar:
Here I mostly follow Christopher. Some of the changes might seem a little daring, but I think they are, at the worst, covered by the principle that allows us to use text created by Christopher Tolkien. If we end up removing the Pengolodh sections at the end, we may also want to remove this, as it is clear in Ainulindale D that these are the words of Pengolodh, not of Rumil. Or we might follow the '77, leaving this in, as emended, and assuming that these actually are Rumil's words.

Section 28
Quote:
{But of all such matters, Ælfwine, others shall tell thee, or thou shalt read in other lore; for it is not my part at this time to instruct thee in the history of the Earth.} And now behold! here is the habitation of the Children of Ilúvatar established at the last in the deeps of Time and amidst the innumerable stars. And here are the Valar, the Powers of the World, contesting for the possession of the jewel of Ilúvatar{; and thus thy feet are on the beginning of the road.
Here are the words of Pengoloð to Ælfwine}
This eliminates only that which has no significance outside of the Pengolodh-Aelfwine framework. We might also go with Christopher Tolkien's emendation: "And thus was the habitation of the Children of Iluvatar established at the last in the Deeps of Time and amidst the innumerable stars."

Section 29
Quote:
{And when he had ended the Ainulindalë, such as Rúmil had made it, Pengoloð the Sage paused a while; and Ælfwine said to him: Little, you say, would the Valar tell to the Eldar of the days before their coming: but do not the wise among you know more of those ancient wars than Rúmil has here set forth? Or will you not tell me more of the Valar as they were when first your kindred beheld and knew them?}
I can see no way to retain this.

Section 30
Quote:
{And Pengoloð answered: Much of what I know or have learned from the elders in lore, I have written; and what I have written thou shalt read, if thou wilt, when thou hast learned better the tongue of the Noldor and their scripts. For these matters are too great and manifold to be spoken or to be taught in speech within the brief patience and heedfulness of those of mortal race. But some little more I may tell to thee now, since thou askest it of me.}
Again, I can think of no way (or reason) to retain this.

Section 31
Quote:
{This tale I have heard also among the lore masters in ages past. For they tell us that} [T]he war began before Arda was full-shaped, and ere yet there was anything that grew or walked upon earth
If we decide to remove the Pengolodh material, this and the subsequent sections will be moved into "Of the Beginning of Days", as in the '77.

Section 36
Quote:
And the {children} servants of Manwë and Varda are {Fionwë Úrion their son} Eonwe{,} and Ilmarë {their daughter; and these were the eldest of the children of the Valar.} They dwelt with Manwë,
There is also the matter of tense here, which we may or may not want to address.

Section [34]
Quote:
{Now all is said to thee, Ælfwine, for this present, concerning the manner of the Earth and its rulers in the time before days and ere the world became such as the Children have known it. Of these thou hast not asked, but a little I will say and so make an end.}
This, I think, must be removed. By the way, is this section numbered out of order for some reason? Or is the section number a mistake?

Section 40b
Quote:
{End of the Ainulindalë spoken by Rúmil to Ælfwine}
No reason to keep this.

[ February 11, 2003: Message edited by: Aiwendil ]
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Old 02-11-2003, 11:05 PM   #25
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Question

Quote:
Hmm. In the preceding sentences, though, the past tense is used. My inclination would be that if we are going to change anything, we should change the present to past.
After reading again paragraph §16, I see your point and agree with the past enmedation.
Quote:
I assume that the removal of Ælfwine does not imply a change in the authorship of the Ainulindalë - there is no reason why it cannot still have been written by Rúmil, and the last few sections added by Pengoloð.
From § 0
I think that we should retain Pengoloð and Rúmil.
Quote:
If we decide to remove the Pengolodh material, this and the subsequent sections will be moved into "Of the Beginning of Days", as in the '77.
From § 31:
I would rather leave Pengoloð in the text.
Quote:
This, I think, must be removed. By the way, is this section numbered out of order for some reason? Or is the section number a mistake?
From § [34]:
No it's not a mistake.
From Morgoth's Ring: Ainulindale
Quote:
D omits the remainder of C §34 concerning the visits of Yavanna and Oromë to Middle-earth (see p. 35), and continues from the beginning of C §35: 'And in the midst of the Blessed Realm were the mansions of Aulë, and there he laboured long.' From this point D becomes again much closer to C, and the differences can be given in the form of notes.
It was just moved from that part in the C version to that part in the D version.
I will try and take a shot at some enmendations another day.
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Old 02-12-2003, 02:49 PM   #26
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Eru- The tarnished sun version is in Myths Transformed and it explains how Melkor tried to ravish Arien, steerswoman of the Sun, but he was burnt by her, and in turn she fled from the sun.
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Old 02-13-2003, 07:49 PM   #27
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Quote:
From § [34]:
No it's not a mistake.
Ah. Of course. Thanks for the explanation.

Quote:
I would rather leave Pengoloð in the text.
I think we should probably have a vote on this.
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Old 02-13-2003, 09:16 PM   #28
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I have posted a poll on the hidden forum so that we can decide on Rúmil and Pengoloð.
Anyone please feel free to add your comments to it.
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Old 02-14-2003, 06:55 AM   #29
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The hidden forum?! Lol, you're making it sound like the batcave.
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Old 02-14-2003, 05:47 PM   #30
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I am copying this over from the private [aka hidden [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] forum so that it can be a matter of public comment and debate,
before if necessary, it is voted on.


-=-=-=~-~=-=-=-
In eliminating Aelfwine [which I am extremely loathe to do, but as all have said, Bilbo seems to have definetively replaced him] we are left with many other references in the last Ainulindale to Rumil and Pengolodh. And indeed they are scattered throught the 'Silmarillion', the Narn and various other texts, such as on Lembas, and the Akallabeth as mentioned in HoM-E 12.

So what we do here requires careful thought and perhaps more study than we have given it.

I have a question to ask before I vote.

Do we have instances of JRRT himself expunging Aelfwine/Pengoldh/Rumil from his later 50's and 60's era texts?

If so that would give us, at least a precedent.

And conversely do we have any texts that were revised very late [say after 67?] wherein the three [in varying combinations of course] are retained, even as JRRT continued revision or creation.

I do not have any ready answer to these queries, but I think they [ or more detailed variants of them] would go along way to educating or perhaps eliminating the need for a vote.

As a sample here is what the opening of the Ainulindale could look like without Aelfwine but with Pen. and Rumil.


Quote:
Ainulindalë

The Music of the Ainur
<font color="FFFF00">This was made by Rúmil of Túna in the Elder Days. It is here written as it was spoken in Eressëa {to Ælfwine} by Pengoloð the Sage. To it are added the further words that Pengoloð spoke at that time concerning the Valar, the Eldar and the Atani; of which more is said thereafter
One may also question keeping Eressea, it could be explained by the unstated hypothesis that Elves in Eressea heard it and transmitted the tale [with Pengolodh Rumil and all] to Numenor or if we want to take Bilbo's collecting of written and living sources to it's logical extreme, Glorfindel could be the source!


I think keeping Eressea, is far less essential than Pengolodh and Rumil.

So anyway I lean towards keeping Rumil and Pengolodh, as I have said, but only if we can reasonably justify it, or conversely, taking them out only if we can find examples of JRRT doing it, or face intractable contradictions [ such as Eressea may prove to be].
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Old 02-15-2003, 03:03 PM   #31
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Lindil:
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Do we have instances of JRRT himself expunging Aelfwine/Pengoldh/Rumil from his later 50's and 60's era texts?
We have, as far as I can find, no such instances. My search was fairly cursory, though, so I may have missed something.

Quote:
One may also question keeping Eressea, it could be explained by the unstated hypothesis that Elves in Eressea heard it and transmitted the tale [with Pengolodh Rumil and all] to Numenor or if we want to take Bilbo's collecting of written and living sources to it's logical extreme, Glorfindel could be the source!
I think it's better to drop Eressea. Any justification that we might concoct for keeping it would be just that: a concoction. The fact is that in the text, Eressea appears because Pengolodh is speaking to Aelfwine there. Eliminate that conversation (as we must) and you eliminate Eressea.

Inderjit Sanghera:
Quote:
1.I preffered the Silmarillion style of writing, without constant interuptions, such as 'So sayeth Rumil'.

2. I think a newcomer may find it easier without the interuptions as well.

3. I prefer to think that Bilbo wrote it.
Two points. First, the decision is not to be based on preference. Whether we prefer one style or another is not the issue. Second, I think such interruptions will have to be taken out in any case, because they rely not only on Rumil and Pengolodh, but also on Aelfwine.

It should be noted that the matter of Aelfwine is quite distinct from the existence of Pengolodh and Rumil. Aelfwine's place in the transmission of the legends is called into doubt by the following:

1. The Change of the World. In BoLT, there is no reason to think that a human could not reach Eressea. But following the appearance of the Numenor legend, a visit by Aelfwine to the Lonely Isle would appear to be impossible.

2. Bilbo's books. These imply that the Quenta Silmarillion and related material passed through the Elves to Bilbo and thus into the Shire. It also firmly establishes the existence of these materials in Middle-earth prior to Aelfwine's hypothetical voyage.

3. The Numenorean authorship. Sometime during or after the writing of LotR, Tolkien seems to have decided that the Quenta Silmarillion was not of Elvish origin, but was a text written in Numenor. There is a difficulty in this, since the change was in part linked to the round world mythology. But I am convinced that the Q.S. must be considered Numenorean. If so, then it was far more likely transmitted to Middle-earth through the Dunedain in the late Second Age than through Aelfwine sometime much later.

So Aelfwine must go. But then, we knew that already. But what of Rumil and Pengolodh? None of these three points seems to apply to them. Nor is there anything in Tolkien's writings that would seem to contradict either their existence or their authorship of certain texts. Bilbo's books were certainly not written by him. They are quite explicitly translations. And the Quenta Silmarillion may indeed be Numenorean, but the Ainulindale and the Valaquenta need not.

So I say: Eliminate Aelfwine. Eliminate references to Pengolodh speaking directly to Aelfwine. But don't expunge Rumil and Pengolodh.
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Old 02-21-2003, 02:27 PM   #32
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Hail all knowing Aiwendil! man, you sure know your Tolkien, don't you? but yeah, i have to agree with you once again. like i said, your logic is sound, and you have textual(?) proof.

i've been kinda on and off the boards lately. where exactly are we in the stage of this particular project? debating?
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Old 03-05-2003, 02:09 PM   #33
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Revising the Ainulindale is a much easier thing to do compared to FoG. There's only two things to resolve: Add a short blurb about the hand me down authorship of Rumil-Pengolod-Numenor and resolve the Flat Earth tradition.

Realistically the Round Earth truth would be hardly known, even to Elves in the Third Age. Elves must have had traditions going back further than their instruction by the Valar. Even then the Noldor would be the only ones in the know in M-E, and probably only the wisest.

If there's any mention of a Round Earth Bilbo would have learned from oral material, seperate from his translations of written work. Any footnote or appendix Bilbo wrote would have been his direct rendering of that.

[ March 05, 2003: Message edited by: Petty Dwarf ]
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Old 03-05-2003, 07:21 PM   #34
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Tolkien

I'm finaly able to post!

A hidden forum eh? interesting...

. . .

Aiwendil-agree that Aelfwine will be eliminated.

The Flat-Earth tradition:
Quote:
Realistically the Round Earth truth would be hardly known, even to Elves in the Third Age. Elves must have had traditions going back further than their instruction by the Valar. Even then the Noldor would be the only ones in the know in M-E, and probably only the wisest.
The tradition is quite "medievalistic"!

I shall have to get back to this thread, and read a bit more, as I have had many things amiss in my knowledge of the project...

. . .
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Old 03-10-2003, 12:01 AM   #35
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Proposed Changes for the Ainulindalë:

{ } Material to be deleted.
Italics Material inserted for grammatical reasons or as editorial bridge.
Most of the enmendations are the work of Aiwendil.

The Music of the Ainur: This was made by Rúmil of Túna in the Elder Days. {It is here written as it was spoken in Eressëa to Ælfwine by Pengoloð the Sage.} To it are added the further words that Pengoloð {spoke} wrote {at that time} concerning the Valar, the Eldar and the Atani; of which more is said thereafter

{First he recited to him the Ainulindalë as Rúmil made it.}

§ 14:But {thou must understand, Ælfwine, that} when the Ainur had beheld this habitation in a vision and had seen the Children of Ilúvatar arise therein, then many of the most mighty of the Holy Ones bent all their thought and their desire towards that place.

I’m just following the Published Silmarillion here.

§14: Palúrien > Kementári by a pencilled change on LQ 2. This was as it were a casual change, not made in §15 (nor in §5). Kementári occurs in the Valaquenta (p. 202).

§ 15: Here the reading of D is "Halls of Aman", which was not corrected to "Ea" with the general change Aman>Ea. Christopher notes that this "was obviously an oversight". It should be corrected to "Halls of Ea".

§ 16: but the delight and pride of Aulë was] in the deed of making, and in the thing made, and neither in possession nor in his own mastery; wherefore he {gives}gave and {hoards}hoarded not, and was free from care, passing ever on to some new work.

Changing of the tenses of the verbs: gives to gave, hoards to hoarded and is to was.

§ 17: Christopher notes the omission of "Behold the towers and mansions of ice!" and says that it may have been inadvertant. We must decide whether to add this back in or not.
I would leave it out.

§ 21: And therefore {, Ælfwine, we name them} they are named the Valar, the Powers of the World.
Following the Published Silmarillion.

§ 25: But {think not, Ælfwine, that} the shapes wherein the Great Ones array themselves are not at all times like unto the shapes of kings and queens of the Children of Ilúvatar; for at whiles they may clothe them in their own thought, made visible in forms terrible and wonderful. {And I myself, long years agone, in the land of the Valar have seen Yavanna in the likeness of a Tree; and the beauty and majesty of that form could not be told in words, not unless all the things that grow in the earth, from the least unto the greatest, should sing in choir together, making unto their queen an offering of song to be laid before the throne of Ilúvatar.}

I regret losing the bit about Yavanna taking the form of a tree, but I can see no way to retain it that would not sound awkward.

§ 27: and of those tumults {we} the elves know but little; for {know thou, Ælfwine,} what {I have} has been declared {unto thee} is come from the Valar themselves, with whom {we of} the Eldalië spoke in the land of Valinor, and {we were} by whom they were instructed {by them}; but little would they ever tell of the days of war ere the coming of the Elves. But this {said Rúmil in the end of the Ainulindalë which I have recounted to thee} is told among the Eldar:

Here I mostly follow Christopher. Some of the changes might seem a little daring, but I think they are, at the worst, covered by the principle that allows us to use text created by Christopher Tolkien. If we end up removing the Pengolodh sections at the end, we may also want to remove this, as it is clear in Ainulindale D that these are the words of Pengolodh, not of Rumil. Or we might follow the '77, leaving this in, as emended, and assuming that these actually are Rumil's words.

§ 28: {But of all such matters, Ælfwine, others shall tell thee, or thou shalt read in other lore; for it is not my part at this time to instruct thee in the history of the Earth.} And now behold! here is the habitation of the Children of Ilúvatar established at the last in the deeps of Time and amidst the innumerable stars. And here are the Valar, the Powers of the World, contesting for the possession of the jewel of Ilúvatar{; and thus thy feet are on the beginning of the road.
Here are the words of Pengoloð to Ælfwine}

This eliminates only that which has no significance outside of the Pengolodh-Aelfwine framework. We might also go with Christopher Tolkien's emendation: "And thus was the habitation of the Children of Iluvatar established at the last in the Deeps of Time and amidst the innumerable stars."

§ 29: {And when he had ended the Ainulindalë, such as Rúmil had made it, Pengoloð the Sage paused a while; and Ælfwine said to him: Little, you say, would the Valar tell to the Eldar of the days before their coming: but do not the wise among you know more of those ancient wars than Rúmil has here set forth? Or will you not tell me more of the Valar as they were when first your kindred beheld and knew them?}

I can see no way to retain this.

§ 30: {And Pengoloð answered: Much of what I know or have learned from the elders in lore, I have written; and what I have written thou shalt read, if thou wilt, when thou hast learned better the tongue of the Noldor and their scripts. For these matters are too great and manifold to be spoken or to be taught in speech within the brief patience and heedfulness of those of mortal race. But some little more I may tell to thee now, since thou askest it of me.}

Again, I can think of no way (or reason) to retain this.

§ 31: {This tale I have heard also among the lore masters in ages past. For they tell us that} [T]he war began before Arda was full-shaped, and ere yet there was anything that grew or walked upon earth

If we decide to remove the Pengolodh material, this and the subsequent sections will be moved into "Of the Beginning of Days", as in the '77. Pengoloð material as per the vote will be kept.

§31b: Palúrien to Kementári.

§35: Palúrien to Kementári.

§ 36: And the {children} servants of Manwë and Varda {are} were {Fionwë Úrion their son} Eönwë{,} and Ilmarë {their daughter; and these were the eldest of the children of the Valar.} They dwelt with Manwë,

There is also the matter of tense here, which we may or may not want to address. I have taken the liberty of changing the are to were as to preserve tenses.
§[34]: {Now all is said to thee, Ælfwine, for this present, concerning the manner of the Earth and its rulers in the time before days and ere the world became such as the Children have known it. Of these thou hast not asked, but a little I will say and so make an end.}
This, I think, must be removed.

§ 40b: End of the Ainulindalë {spoken} written by Rúmil[.] {to Ælfwine}

I hope that it could be kept in this way.
Another alternative is: deleting the whole thing as Aiwendil proposed.

I would like for all project members to revise the changes and hopefully we can have a vote to finish the Ainulindalë section of our project. I will post this post in the bat cave too.

[img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[ March 10, 2003: Message edited by: Maédhros ]
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Old 03-10-2003, 03:58 PM   #36
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Wow.

Quote:
§ 25: But {think not, Ælfwine, that} the shapes wherein the Great Ones array themselves are not at all times like unto the shapes of kings and queens of the Children of Ilúvatar; for at whiles they may clothe them in their own thought, made visible in forms terrible and wonderful. {And I myself, long years agone, in the land of the Valar have seen Yavanna in the likeness of a Tree; and the beauty and majesty of that form could not be told in words, not unless all the things that grow in the earth, from the least unto the greatest, should sing in choir together, making unto their queen an offering of song to be laid before the throne of Ilúvatar.}

I regret losing the bit about Yavanna taking the form of a tree, but I can see no way to retain it that would not sound awkward.
I don't know if the Yavanna section is completely unsalveagable. {And I myself, long years gone} has to go but why not substitute Eldar or Eldalie (themselves)?
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Old 03-10-2003, 04:32 PM   #37
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I post some of my work merge with Maédhros
and Awendil Idea.

AINU-01
This was made by Rúmil of Túna in the Elder
Days. {It is here written as it was spoken in
Eressëa to Ælfwine by Pengoloð the Sage.} To it
are added the further words that Pengoloð /*the Sage*\
{spoke} [wrote] {at that time} concerning the Valar, the
Eldar and the Atani; of which more is said hereafter


AINU-02
{First he recited to him the Ainulindalë as Rúmil made it.}

AINU-03
But {thou must understand, Ælfwine, that} when the Ainur had beheld this habitation in a vision
I’m just following the Published Silmarillion here.

AINU-04
But the other Ainur looked upon this habitation in the Halls of {Aman} [Eä]
Here the reading of D is "Halls of Aman", which was not corrected to "Ea" with the general change Aman>Ea. Christopher notes that this "was obviously an oversight". It should be corrected to "Halls of Ea".

AINU-05
Now to water had that Ainu whom {we} [the Elves] call Ulmo

AINU-06
but the delight and pride of Aulë was in the deed of making, and in the thing made, and neither in possession nor in his own mastery; wherefore he {gives} [gave] and {hoards} [hoarded] not, and is free from care, passing ever on to some new work.
Changing of the tenses of the verbs: gives to gave, hoards to hoarded.

AINU-07
Behold the snow, and the cunning work of frost! [Behold the towers and mansions of ice!]
Christopher notes the omission of "Behold the towers and mansions of ice!" and says that it may have been inadvertant. We must decide whether to add this back in or not.
I would leave it out.

AINU-08
And therefore{, Ælfwine, we name them} [they are named] the Valar, the Powers of the World.
Following the Published Silmarillion.

AINU-09
But {think not, Ælfwine, that} the shapes wherein the Great Ones array themselves are at all times like unto the shapes of kings and queens of the Children of Ilúvatar

AINU-10
Great Ones array themselves are at all times like unto the shapes of kings and queens of the Children of Ilúvatar; for at whiles they may clothe them in their own thought, made visible in forms terrible and wonderful.[Note *]{And I myself, long years agone, in the land of the Valar have seen Yavanna in the likeness of a Tree; and the beauty and majesty of that form could not be told in words, not unless all the things that grow in the earth, from the least unto the greatest, should sing in choir together, making unto their queen an offering of song to be laid before the throne of Ilúvatar.}

(Note *) /*And I myself, long years agone, in the land of the Valar have seen Yavanna in the likeness of a Tree; and the beauty and majesty of that form could not be told in words, not unless all the things that grow in the earth, from the least unto the greatest, should sing in choir together, making unto their queen an offering of song to be laid before the throne of Ilúvatar.*\ [Quoth Pengoloð.]

I regret losing the bit about Yavanna taking the form of a tree, to use Pengoloð insert can be a solution.

AINU-11
Thus began the first battle of the Valar and Melkor for the dominion of Arda; and of those tumults {we} [the Elves] know but little; for {know thou, Ælfwine}, what {I have} [has been] declared {unto thee} is come from the Valar themselves, with whom {we of} the Eldalië spoke in the land of Valinor, and {we were} [by whom they were] instructed {by them}; but little would {they} [the Valar] ever tell of the days of war ere the coming of the Elves. But this {said Rúmil in the end of the Ainulindalë which I have recounted to thee} [is told among the Eldar]
Here I mostly follow Christopher. Some of the changes might seem a little daring, but I think they are, at the worst, covered by the principle that allows us to use text created by Christopher Tolkien. If we end up removing the Pengolodh sections at the end, we may also want to remove this, as it is clear in Ainulindale D that these are the words of Pengolodh, not of Rumil. Or we might follow the '77, leaving this in, as emended, and assuming that these actually are Rumil's words.

AINU-12
{But of all such matters, Ælfwine, others shall tell thee, or thou shalt read in other lore; for it is not my part at this time to instruct thee in the history of the Earth.} And now behold! here is the habitation of the Children of Ilúvatar established at the last in the deeps of Time and amidst the innumerable stars. And here are the Valar, the Powers of the World, contesting for the possession of the jewel of Ilúvatar{; and thus thy feet are on the beginning of the road}.
This eliminates only that which has no significance outside of the Pengolodh-Aelfwine framework. We might also go with Christopher Tolkien's emendation: "And thus was the habitation of the Children of Iluvatar established at the last in the Deeps of Time and amidst the innumerable stars."

AINU-13
/*End of the Ainulindalë {spoken} [written] by Rúmil {to Ælfwine} [.]*\

Here are the words of Pengoloð {to Ælfwine}
{And when he had ended the Ainulindalë, such as Rúmil had made it, Pengoloð the Sage paused a while; and Ælfwine said to him:} Little{, you say, would} [was tell by] the Valar {tell} to the Eldar of the days before their coming[.] {: but do not the wise among you know more of those ancient wars than Rúmil has here set forth? Or will you not tell me} [But it can be write] more of the Valar as they were when first {your} [the] kindred [of the Noldor] beheld and knew them{?}[.]
{And Pengoloð answered: Much of what I know or have learned from the elders in lore, I have written; and what I have written thou shalt read, if thou wilt, when thou hast learned better the tongue of the Noldor and their scripts. For these matters are too great and manifold to be spoken or to be taught in speech within the brief patience and heedfulness of those of mortal race. But some little more I may tell to thee now, since thou askest it of me.} This tale {I have heard also among} /*have learned from*\ the lore masters [of the Noldor] in ages past. {For they tell us that the}[
The] war began before Arda was full-shaped …

Editorial introduction of Pengoloð section

AINU-14
{Palúrien} [Kementári]
§31b & §35

AINU-15
And the {children} [servants] of Manwë and Varda {are} [were] {Fionwë Úrion their son,} [Eonwë] and Ilmarë {their daughter}; and these were the {eldest} [highest] of the {children} [servants] of the Valar.
There is also the matter of tense here, which we may or may not want to address. I have taken the liberty of changing the are to were as to preserve tenses.
I change eldest by highest, there is not notion of birth and age for the Ainur .

AINU-16
Now all is said {to thee, Ælfwine, for this present,} concerning the manner of the Earth and its rulers in the time before days and ere the world became such as the Children have known it. {Of these thou hast not asked, but a little I will say and so make an end.}
This must be removed.

AINU-17
{End of the Ainulindalë spoken by Rúmil to Ælfwine}
Use previously

[ March 10, 2003: Message edited by: antoine2 ]

[ March 10, 2003: Message edited by: antoine2 ]

[ March 11, 2003: Message edited by: antoine2 ]
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Old 03-10-2003, 06:34 PM   #38
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Two quick things:

I think "Behold the towers and mansions of ice!" should be put back in; but how does everyone feel about it?

Yavanna-tree Situation:
The whole statement is a little out of step with the rest of the narrative, since it comes from an aside to Aelfwine. I think we all agree that if it's in the text Pengolod and not Rumil put it there. But "quoth Pengolod" wouldn't work, neither of the authors are ever mentioned outside of the headings.
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Old 03-11-2003, 11:12 AM   #39
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re: AINU-10 and the Tree/Yavanna, I say we move it to the Valaquenta [when yavanna is decribed] as per Aiwendil's suggstion.

It is far to beautiful to loose altogether, and would fit there better anyway. [ And thankfully we have CJRT's example for moving Ainu.material to Valaquenta.
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Old 03-11-2003, 12:38 PM   #40
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I disagree with this idea.

Valaquenta is a tale wrote by Rumil; there is no indication that there is insert of pengolod in this text.

For Ainulindale it s different, some inserts of Pengolod are present.
First in our introduction, it s write that:
Quote:
To it are added the further words that Pengoloð the Sage wrote concerning the Valar, the Eldar and the Atani
And second in Morgoth Ring there is an indication that Tolkien used this type of insert
Quote:
§ 19 After 'when the vision was taken away' there is a footnote that seems to have been an early addition:
And some have said that the Vision ceased ere the fulfilment of the Dominion of Men and the fading of the Firstborn; wherefore, though the Music is over all, the Valar have not seen as with sight the Later Ages or the ending of the World. Quoth Pengoloð.
MORGOTH`S RING - AINULINDALË - Version D - Page 32
Anyway for sur we can't put off this beautiful insert. But this add of Pengolod, that looks for me like a "sade remembrance", a spleen of Valinor, looks better like an insert in this text.

But it s my vision , but a vote is possible.

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