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Old 07-26-2001, 04:11 PM   #1
Tar Elenion
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Ring The Statures of Elves and Men: Changes

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Early 20's: &quot;Men were almost of a stature at first with Elves, the fairies being far greater and Men smaller than now&quot; From BoLT1.
Very early conception when these 'Elves' were 'fairies' and not the Eldar of Tolkiens later conception, just very different and distant predecessors.

ca. '26: &quot;In early days Eldar and Men were of nearly equal stature and power of body... Men from the first though slightly bigger were more frail.&quot; SoME, Earliest Silmarillion, chapter 7.
Note Men are only slightly bigger than the Elves. No difference is mentioned about power of body. The distinguishing elements of the Edainic house have not been introduced yet.

ca. '30: &quot;In early days Eldar and Men were of little different stature and bodily might; but the Eldar were blessed with greater skill, beauty and wit... More frail were men...&quot; SoME, The Quenta, Chapter 7.
Now Men and Elves are equivelent in height and strength the remark about Men being slightly bigger is dropped. Still no writings on the Edainic stature.

ca. '37: &quot;In those days Elves and Men were of like stature and strength of body.. More frail were Men.&quot; LR, Quenta Silmarillion, Chapter 7. (And also the '77 published Sil).
The idea of Men being bigger remained dropped. (Note Elves and Men generic not specific, just as with the above posts, Eldar=Elves). But Edainic elements enter.


ca. '37: &quot;[Hador's] folk were yellow haired and blue-eyed for the most part... They were of greater strength and stature in body than the Elves... Like to them were the woodland folk of Haleth, but they were not so tall; their backs were broader their legs shorter and less swift... the people of Beor were dark or brown of hair; their eyes grey, and their faces fair to look upon...Their height was no greater than that of the Elves of that day, and they were most like to the Gnomes; for they were eager of mind, cunning handed, swift of understanding, long in memory.&quot; LR, Quenta Silmarillion, Chapter 10 Of Men and Dwarves.
Hador's folk are greater in strenth and stature than Elves (generic/average); the Folk of Haleth are related to the Hadorians; the Beorians are no greater in height than the Elves (again generic), they are compared with the Gnomes (who are only now starting to become Noldor), in terms of mental abilities, and certain physical skills NOT in terms of actual physical atributes (height or strength).

ca. '51: &quot;The men of Beor were dark or brown of hair, but fair of face, with grey eyes; of shaply form, having courage and endurance, yet they were no greater in stature than the Eldar of that day. For the Noldor indeed were tall as are in the latter days men of great might and majesty. But the people of Hador were of yet greater strength and stature, mighty among the children of Eru, ready in mind bold and steadfast. Yellowhaired they were for the most part...Like unto them were th woodmen of Haleth, yet somewhat broader and less high.&quot; WotJ, Grey Annals, 422.
Here it speaks of the Beorians being no greater in stature than the Eldar (generic including the Sindar, Nandor and Noldor). It then goes on to say that the Noldor (in general) are as tall as men of great might and majesty (specific) of later days (the Numenoreans were men of great might and majesty of later days). The Hadorian are of yet greater strength and stature, but is this comparing them to the Noldor? I think not. As with the other writings it is comparing them with the Beorians. The Noldor are distinguished by being as tall as later men of strength and majesty (such as Numenoreans are). The Halethians are still related to the Hadorians.

ca. '58: &quot;Many of [Hador's] people were like him golden-haired and blue-eyed; they were tall and strong, quick to wrath and laughter, fierce in resolve, fast in loyalty, joyous in heart, the children of Illuvatar in the youth of Mankind. But the people of the House of Beor were dark or brown of hair; their eyes were grey and keen and their faces fair and shapely. Lithe and lean in body they were long-enduring in hardship. Of all men they were most like the Noldor and most loved by them; for they were eager of mind, cunning handed, swift in understanding, long in memory... Like to them were the woodland folk of Haleth; but they were shorter and broader, sterner and less swift.&quot; WotJ, Later Quenta Silmarillion, Chapter 14, Of the Coming of Men.
Now it becomes clear that the height and strength comparison is between the Hadorians and Beorians (or if not it was dropped). Again the Beorians are generally less in stature and strength than the Hadorians, but note here they are 'lithe and lean in body'. The comparison btween the Noldor and Beorians is again not physical attributes, but skills of mind and body. The Folk of Haleth are now being related to the Beorians.


ca. '68: &quot;For the most part [the Folk of Hador] were a tall people, with flaxen or golden hair and blue-grey eyes, but there were not a few among them that had dark hair though all were fair skinned... There were fair-haired men and women among the Folk of Beor, but most had brown hair (going usually with brown eyes), and many were less fair in skin some indeed being swarthy. Men as tall as the folk of Hador were rare among them, and most were broader and more heavy in build. In association with the Eldar... they became as enhanced in arts and manners as the folk of Hador, but if these surpassed them in swiftness of mind and body, in daring and noble generosity, the Folk of Beor were more steadfast in endurance of hardship and sorrow... But these differences of body and mind became less marked as their short generations passed, for the two peoples became much mingled by intermarriage and by the disasters of the War.&quot; PoME, Of Dwarves and Men.
Note that any physical comparison has vis a vis Elves and Men is dropped. The Hadorians are taller (and swifter) than other men (no mention of strength), both the Hadorians and Beorians are enhanced by association with the Eldar. But the differences are becoming less because of intermarriage (so the Hadorians are becoming smaller, dark hair more prominent). Note also the slight changes to skin, hair and eye colour. The Beorians are also no longer described as 'lithe and lean' but 'broader and heavier' (one of the footnotes has Beren (a Beorian) as 'broad shouldered and very strong of limb'.


From '77: [Hador's] people were of great strength, stature ready in mind, bold and steadfast, quick to anger and laughter, mighty among the Children of Illuvatar in the youth of Mankind. Yellow haired for the most part and blue-eyed... The Men of [Beor's] house were dark or brown of hair with grey eyes; and of all Men they were most like to the Noldor... for they were eager of mind, cunning handed, swift in understanding, long in memory, and they were moved sooner to pity than laughter. Like to them were the woodland folk of Haleth but they were of lesser stature, and less eager for lore.&quot; From the published Silmarillion (as edited by CT) Chapter 17, Of the Coming of Men.
Provided so that you can see some of the changes CT made to JRRT's writings and how he edited together various passages from different times to put together the published Silmarillion.

We can do something Similar for the Numenoreans.
ca. 36?: &quot;For in Numenore a great people arose, in all things more like the First Kindred than other races of Men that have been, yet less fair and wise than they, though greater in body.&quot; LR, Fall of Numenor (first version).
ca. 36? and 40?: &quot;...the people of Numenor grew great and glorious, in all things more like the Firstborn than any other races of Men that have been; yet less fair and wise than the Elves though greater in stature. For the Numenoreans were taller than even the tallest sons of Men in Middle-Earth.&quot; (Second Version (LR) and Third Version (SD)).
So these three versions have the Numenoreans being taller than the Elves (again a generic average) but do not say they are stronger.

ca. '46: &quot;And the Numenoreans grew wise and fair and glorious, the mightiest of men that have been.&quot; SD, Drowning of Anadune (original, 2nd version lacks 'mightiest of men').
ca. '48?: &quot;...in Numenor the Eruhildi became wise and fair and glorious, the mightiest of Men...&quot;. (3rd Version).
The later versions now drop the Numenoreans as being taller than the Eldar. But they are the mightiest of Men.

ca. 51: &quot;Therefore the grew wise and glorious, and in all things more like the Firstborn than any other of the kindreds of Men; and they were tall, taller than the tallest sons of Middle-earth...&quot; Akallabeth, Pub Sil. and PoME, History of the Akallabeth.
That the Numenoreans were greater in stature than the Eldar remains DROPPED in the final version. However they are taller than any Men of Middle-earth.

ca. '68: &quot;They were called 'halflings'; but this refers to the normal hieght of men of Numenorean descent and of the Eldar (especially those of Noldorin descent, which appears to have been about 7 of our feet.&quot; PoME, Of Dwarves and Men.

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Old 07-26-2001, 04:30 PM   #2
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Re: The Statures of Elves and Men: Changes

Beautiful work!

Of course part of the problem is that Tolkien is usually talking averages. Presumably there were always some Elves shorter than some Men, and some Men shorter than some Elves, and so forth.

And really what can you make of the &quot;Quendi and Eldar&quot; statement on the Sindar:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> In general the Sindar appear to have very closely resembled the Exiles, being dark-haired, strong and tall, but lithe.<hr></blockquote>&quot;Strong and tall&quot; compared to whom? The Nandor and the Avari. They were of the same origin and kin as the Noldor and Sindar. Perhaps Elves tended to dwindle or grow physically in their long years of life reflecting to some degree the power of their spirits, and so Noldor and Sindar had physically outgrown the other Elves. If so, JRRT does not mention such a thing.

Perhaps they are &quot;strong and tall&quot; compared to Men? Probably not particularly. Taller on the averge than the Bėorians and House of Haleth perhaps, and more equal to the Hadorians? Maybe that is all that is meant?

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000212>jallanit e</A> at: 7/26/01 6:31:02 pm
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Old 07-26-2001, 05:29 PM   #3
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Re: The Statures of Elves and Men: Changes

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Beautiful work!
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Thank you. I did this last year for a debate at Tolkien Online, so it is probably not quite _on topic_ in some details, but close enough.


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Of course part of the problem is that Tolkien is usually talking averages. Presumably there were always some Elves shorter than some Men, and some Men shorter than some Elves, and so forth.
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I agree, this is refering to averages.

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And really what can you make of the &quot;Quendi and Eldar&quot; statement on the Sindar:
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In general the Sindar appear to have very closely resembled the Exiles, being dark-haired, strong and tall, but lithe.
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My take on this is that the Sindar resemble the Noldor, but are not as strongly built, they are more lithe than the Noldor. This is in keeping with Numenorean Linear Measures in UT where it is noted that the 'Teleri were in general [an average ] somewhat less in build and stature than the Noldor'.


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&quot;Strong and tall&quot; compared to whom? The Nandor and the Avari. They were of the same origin and kin as the Noldor and Sindar. Perhaps Elves tended to dwindle or grow physically in their long years of life reflecting to some degree the power of their spirits, and so Noldor and Sindar had physically outgrown the other Elves. If so, JRRT does not mention such a thing.
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The Noldor are noted for their height and strength from their beginning: &quot;...and they [the fourth group of Quendi found] were tall and dark-haired and strong like fir trees, and from them most of the Noldor later were sprung.&quot;
Appendix to Quendi and Eldar (the Awakening Legend).
The other groups have no similar physical descriptions made.

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Perhaps they are &quot;strong and tall&quot; compared to Men? Probably not particularly.
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I would say probably yes. That is compared to Men (in general) on average.


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Taller on the averge than the Bėorians and House of Haleth perhaps, and more equal to the Hadorians? Maybe that is all that is meant?
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The way I interpret it is that the Hadorians were the tallest of the Edain (until they interbred and became less distinct) and rivalled the Noldor (on average). The Sindar and Beorians were shorter (on average) and perhaps more alike in height.

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Old 02-26-2011, 10:04 PM   #4
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Just to add to Tar-Elenion's work here, something 'newer' revealed by Hammond and Scull...

Quote:
'The Quendi were in origin a tall people. The Eldar (...) they were in general the stronger and taller members of the Elvish folk at that time. In Eldarin tradition it was said that even their women were seldom less than six feet in height; their full-grown elfmen no less than six and a half feet, while some of the great kings and leaders were taller.'

JRRT, late manuscript, The Lord of the Rings Reader's Companion, Hammond and scull, p. 107


The Numenoreans...


Quote:
'... the Numenoreans before the Downfall were a people of great stature and strength, the Kings of men; their full grown men were commonly seven feet tall, especially in the royal and noble houses. In the North where men of other kinds were fewer and their race remained purer this stature remained more frequent, though in both Arnor and Gondor apart from mixture of race the Numenoreans showed a dwindling of height and of longevity in Middle-earth that became more marked as the Third Age passed. Aragorn, direct descendant of Elendil and his son Isildur, both of whom had been seven feet tall, must nonetheless have been a very tall man…, probably at least 6 ft. 6; and Boromir, of high Nśmenorean lineage, not much shorter (say 6 ft. 4).'

The problem is, I've no idea if these notes published by Hammond and Scull are earlier or later than the late statement from Of Dwarves And Men (in which the Eldar seem generally taller); and I'm not sure, so far, if there's any way to tell.
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Old 11-08-2014, 10:41 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Galin View Post
Just to add to Tar-Elenion's work here, something 'newer' revealed by Hammond and Scull...





The Numenoreans...





The problem is, I've no idea if these notes published by Hammond and Scull are earlier or later than the late statement from Of Dwarves And Men (in which the Eldar seem generally taller); and I'm not sure, so far, if there's any way to tell.
Although we must not forget that both sentences can fit just fine if we consider that "seldom less" and "no less" indicate a minimum rather than average like you are suggesting .
Anyway I agree that sentence may have more than one interpretation but why should we care about the one it's conflicted if both are of late dates and the other can fit perfectly??
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Old 11-09-2014, 09:33 AM   #6
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LOL! This again. Nor should we forget the interpretation that these ideas do not necessarily agree -- and need not necessarily agree, like other ideas and details also found in an author's draft texts. And speaking of forgetting, nor should we forget that with respect to late texts, Tolkien himself even noted that his memory was not retentive; noting that 'late texts', while seemingly written in the same general time frame, could still be written many months apart, or even years apart.

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Anyway I agree that sentence may have more than one interpretation but why should we care about the one it's conflicted if both are of late dates and the other can fit perfectly??
You don't have to care. No one has to care. But if the sentences in question do have more than one interpretation, as you agree to here... well then there you have it, you agree!

If anyone wants to care only about the interpretation that everything Tolkien wrote about this matter (everything that can be characterized as a 'late text' anyway) fits because it can be argued that it fits...

... then yes people are free to care only about that specific interpretation
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Old 11-09-2014, 10:13 AM   #7
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Well calm down Galin, I was just saying that there is another interpretation using other quote that make everything ok. I only said this because you didn't pointed out that there was another possibility and in my previous post I even said that there is more than one interpretation.
Now expecting you've calmed down I would like to ask why didn't Christopher ever mentioned that last quote?
And you should realize that the last quote kind of change years of believing about the similarities being given about Numenoreans and Noldor especially about their height(1951-68 or later) and you don't seem to care about that!! and like a Tolkien fan I think it's fine that you point out that there is others interpretations but the first thing you should do is to say the one that fits not the one that doesn't(in your posts you always treats both like contradiction and so I feel in the duty to point that that's not true).
Finally I would trust Christopher instead of Hammond any time.
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Old 11-09-2014, 12:18 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by arathorn
Well calm down Galin, I was just saying that there is another interpretation using other quote that make everything ok. I only said this because you didn't pointed out that there was another possibility and in my previous post I even said that there is more than one interpretation.
Who is not calm? I began with LOL and was only having a bit of fun when running through the factors that we have already been over elsewhere, despite that you 'even said' there is more than one interpretation.

But you also asked why should 'we' care and so I responded to that too.

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Now expecting you've calmed down I would like to ask why didn't Christopher ever mentioned that last quote?
You'll have to ask Christopher Tolkien. Do you think there is some meaning in his not publishing it in Unfinished Tales, for example?

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And you should realize that the last quote kind of change years of believing about the similarities being given about Numenoreans and Noldor especially about their height (1951-68 or later) and you don't seem to care about that!!
I'm not sure what the point of this statement is.

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... and like a Tolkien fan I think it's fine that you point out that there is others interpretations but the first thing you should do is to say the one that fits not the one that doesn't (in your posts you always treats both like contradiction and so I feel in the duty to point that that's not true).
I'm free to post as I like and I happen to think your interpretation is a bit strained (if possible). And I'm not sure I always treat these as contradictions since, IIRC, in some of my posts I use, with purpose, the word necessarily. But anyway in this thread (before you revived it) I basically added the new citations, and noted the ambiguity of dating here -- and only added, by comparison, that the Eldar seem generally taller in Of Dwarves And Men...

… if that brief opinion was too one sided for you or too definitively stated (and I guess it was) -- even though most of the citations concerned are already in the thread for comparison and interpretation -- then do your duty.

Gives me something to post I guess.

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Finally I would trust Christopher instead of Hammond any time.
Again I'm not sure what this is intended to mean. Wayne Hammond and Christina Scull have merely published certain descriptions or texts that Chistopher Tolkien never published. Carl Hostetter, Verlyn Flieger, and John Rateliff have done the same, for more examples.

Okay... and?

The new descriptions are still Tolkien-written, if not Tolkien-published. Do you think Wayne Hammond altered the original wording here, or something?

Last edited by Galin; 11-09-2014 at 12:45 PM.
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Old 11-09-2014, 12:57 PM   #9
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I'm sorry Galin but since I met you and saw your name in other forums including this you always treated both quotes as contradictory and every-time I see it I just try to persuade otherwise not just because I believe it but because Tolkien has enough and much more contradictory things than this thus we shouldn't over-think things like you do although it has a point that I recognize.
Well Christopher made a book with "Part 2 - Late Writings" , which included Of Dwarves and Men like we already know and for example the part where Fingolfin is stronger than Feanor is dropped to "...Feanor, great in mind and body beyond the measure of the Eldar", but the simple mention that Fingolfin was strong even in comparison to Feanor in the past, still makes him very strong.
Finally it's always good to argue with you I guess
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Old 11-09-2014, 01:42 PM   #10
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Well yes I lean toward the opinion that these quotes embody different ideas, but again I've said it's quite possible (if more strained in my opinion) that these quotes agree with each other -- and I know I've said that much more than once now, at the least in other conversations with you elsewhere. And I don't agree I'm over-thinking things, including when I interpret Tolkien's description in reaction to P. Baynes artwork (I really need an easier term for this text) compared to the description in ODAM -- I interpreted these things that way naturally.

Quote:
Well Christopher made a book with "Part 2 - Late Writings" , which included Of Dwarves and Men like we already know and for example the part where Fingolfin is stronger than Feanor is dropped to "...Feanor, great in mind and body beyond the measure of the Eldar", but the simple mention that Fingolfin was strong even in comparison to Feanor in the past, still makes him very strong.
If that's your answer to why you trust Christopher Tolkien over Hammond and Scull here then you've lost me, as you seem to be saying that since Christopher Tolkien published Of Dwarves And Men, but not (all of) Tolkien's reactions to Pauline Bayne's artwork, then the former has more weight than the latter. If so I strongly disagree with that. I think you are jumping to conclusions about some motive or opinion of Christopher Tolkien's with respect to the weighting of texts.

CJRT also didn't publish Tolkien's Osanwe-Kenta for example, or all the notes to The Shibboleth of Feanor, but there is no indication from him that he thinks these texts are 'lesser' in some way and thus have been given to other scholars to publish and comment on.

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Finally it's always good to argue with you I guess
You guess? Are you sure

Last edited by Galin; 11-09-2014 at 02:30 PM.
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Old 11-09-2014, 02:37 PM   #11
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Well yes I lean toward the opinion that these quotes embody different ideas, but again I've said it's quite possible (if more strained in my opinion) that these quotes agree with each other -- and I know I've said that much more than once now, at the least in other conversations with you elsewhere.

Yes that's exactly what I was talking about, you should in other threads at least tell the other possibility not just when I say otherwise or someone else.[/u][/u][/u]

Wel I don't happen to agree I'm 'over-thinking' things, including when I interpret Tolkien's description in reaction to P. Baynes artwork (I really need an easier term for this text) compared to the description in ODAM -- I interpreted these things that way naturally.


But man there are many and much more contradicted things. I don't think we should get stuck in another contradiction when it simply can get match perfectly and while there is no other passage that support that idea.

If that's your answer to why you trust Christopher Tolkien over Hammond and Scull here then you've really lost me, as you seem to be saying that since Christopher Tolkien published Of Dwarves And Men, but not Tolkien's reactions to Pauline Bayne's artwork, then the former has more weight than the latter.


I just think that Christopher should have access to that passage since he talked about Eldar height more than once and I talked about Feanor thing to say that what was written there(PME) was probably his latest thoughts.

If so I srongly disagree with that. I think you are jumping to conclusions based on some imagined motive or opinion of Christopher Tolkien's about the weighting of texts.


I think I would put more weight in latest writings given by Christopher than Hammond (not that the latter is wrong). Anyway in my interpretation both say the same thing so we can forget about that...

CJRT also didn't publish Tolkien's Osanwe-Kenta for example, or all the notes to The Shibboleth of Feanor, but there is no indication from him that he thinks these texts are 'lesser' for having been given to other scholars to publish and comment on.


Agreed It's just that if some of them publish something different and contradictory with the same topic Christopher already published many times that should mean Christopher already have the knowledge and chose to ignore or he didn't know (which isn't likely).

You guess? Are you sure

Yeah sometimes you prefer to put more contradiction in a work that already has a lot of them and I must admit that ****es me off sometimes. Although currently I'm kind off accustomed with that.
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Old 11-09-2014, 03:20 PM   #12
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Yes that's exactly what I was talking about, you should in other threads at least tell the other possibility not just when I say otherwise or someone else.
So you think I 'should' always post an interpretation I disagree with and think is strained, and not just in reaction to you or someone else posting another? Actually, when I originally started adding new information to threads that concerned this matter, I'm not sure it had even yet occurred to me that anyone would think these quotations agreed with each other.

In the past I have, with respect to various topics, explained that my interpretation of something is not the only interpretation 'out there'. And I have at times, if not always, actually included counter arguments that I know exist but that I disagree with. That said, when I give my opinion on Balrog wings, for instance, I don't always refer to every counter argument I have ever read on the web.

Do you really see everyone on the web always posting any and all counter arguments about a given matter, simply because they know some other argument (or arguments) exist(s)?

Your opinion about how I 'should' post about this is noted in any case

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But man there are many and much more contradicted things. I don't think we should get stuck in another contradiction when it simply can get match perfectly and while there is no other passage that support that idea.
That opinion arises from your interpretation in the first place ('match perfectly' for example). I don't write the texts: if I see something I think contradicts something else, I'll note it. Maybe.


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I just think that Christopher should have access to that passage since he talked about Eldar height more than once and I talked about Feanor thing to say that what was written there (PME) was probably his latest thoughts.
Well Christopher Tolkien published parts of these 'Hammond and Scull descriptions' in Unfinished Tales actually, just not all of them. And no, there is no indication that the mere publication by Christopher Tolkien, of ODAM, makes ODAM necessarily later that the other description.


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I think I would put more weight in latest writings given by Christopher than Hammond (not that the latter is wrong). Anyway in my interpretation both say the same thing so we can forget about that...
Yet you haven't proven which text is later than the other however. If you can I would love to know myself.

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Agreed It's just that if some of them publish something different and contradictory with the same topic Christopher already published many times that should mean Christopher already have the knowledge and chose to ignore or he didn't know (which isn't likely).
As I guessed you're jumping to conclusions about what this 'means'. Hammond and Scull noted that they and CJRT were reluctant to publish these late notes, in context, while Pauline Baynes was still alive...

... because Tolkien was not happy with these particular illustrations.

CJRT published some of them in UT (without the explanation that they were, in part, Tolkien's reaction to the artwork of P. Baynes). Now there is more from J. Rateliff and Hammond and Scull, with the fuller, external context explained, as the artist has passed on.

But still we don't have all of it published as yet!

Quote:
Yeah sometimes you prefer to put more contradiction in a work that already has a lot of them and I must admit that ****es me off sometimes. Although currently I'm kind off accustomed with that.
That's not how I would characterize what I prefer to do

Last edited by Galin; 11-09-2014 at 03:45 PM.
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Old 11-09-2014, 03:42 PM   #13
Galin
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... and I must admit that ****es me off sometimes. Although currently I'm kind off accustomed with that.
Well... may I suggest you try to keep calm then

Sorry I couldn't resist.
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Old 11-09-2014, 04:03 PM   #14
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Do you really see everyone on the web always posting any and all counter arguments about a given matter, simply because they know some other argument (or arguments) exist(s)?

I though that after all we have been through you at least recognize another possibility that wouldn't leave contradiction and that it has very strong arguments that could prove this (until now I haven't seen anyone who couldn't actually see my possibility or at least see dubious interpretation except you of course).

That opinion arises from your interpretation in the first place ('match perfectly' for example). I don't write the texts: if I see something I think contradicts something else, I'll note it. Maybe.

It's my opinion but if I'm right what would be the height of the race in which their shortest are 6'6''? about 7' (since Tolkien never gives a really exact height). But like I said the point isn't that but the fact that nothing supports your last interpretation.

Yet you haven't proven one is later than the other however. If you can I would love to know myself.

I said to forget that since independent of the date both says the same thing(tome of course).

As I guessed you're jumping to conclusions about what this 'means'. Hammond and Scull noted that they and CJRT were reluctant to publish these late notes, in context, while Pauline Baynes was still alive...

... because Tolkien was not happy with these particular illustrations.

CJRT published some of them in UT (without the explanation that they were, in part, Tolkien's reaction to the artwork of P. Baynes). Now there is more from J. Rateliff and Hammond and Scull, with the fuller, external context explained, as the artist has passed on.


I was saying that Chris already "posted" a lot about Eldar height so why didn't he posted that? Or do you think he never saw that passage?

That's not how I would characterize what I prefer to do

" I don't write the texts: if I see something I think contradicts something else, I'll note it" that was said by you and pretty much proves what I was talking about
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Old 11-10-2014, 07:05 AM   #15
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I though that after all we have been through you at least recognize another possibility that wouldn't leave contradiction and that it has very strong arguments that could prove this (until now I haven't seen anyone who couldn't actually see my possibility or at least see dubious interpretation except you of course).
Actually more than once I've said that I recognize the 'possibility' of your argument now that we have spoken. But no, I don't agree that your argument is 'very strong', sorry.


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It's my opinion but if I'm right what would be the height of the race in which their shortest are 6'6''? about 7' (since Tolkien never gives a really exact height). But like I said the point isn't that but the fact that nothing supports your last interpretation.
Yet you already agreed that my interpretation of the 'artwork quote' itself is a valid interpretation!

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Galin said: Yet you haven't proven one is later than the other however. If you can I would love to know myself.

Arathorn responded: I said to forget that since independent of the date both says the same thing (to me of course).
So you want me to forget that you stated that you would trust CJRT more than W. Hammond, even though both descriptions are Tolkien-written and you can't illustrate which is later than the other. The point was: the idea that CJRT published one and Hammond and Scull published the other has nothing to do with the date of the texts.

That was the thrust of this part of the discussion. And yes both say the same thing 'to you' obviously. But I've no idea why that should mean I should 'forget it'.

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I was saying that Chris already "posted" a lot about Eldar height so why didn't he posted that? Or do you think he never saw that passage?
Now you're just repeating the question: as Christopher Tolkien himself published parts of the description in question, my guess is that he both saw and read the whole set of texts in which Tolkien reacts to the artwork of P. Baynes, which is a natural enough assumption in my opinion.

And I've already responded to this: you'll have to ask him why he didn't publish it all himself in Unfinished Tales, instead of allowing Hammond and Scull or J. Rateliff to publish other parts of it. He doesn't explain this... the problem remains, it seems to me, that you're trying to answer for him by suggesting that the parts he didn't publish in The History of Middle-Earth or elsewhere are somehow lesser in some way.

Or if not I've no idea what your argument about this really is.

And while you're at it maybe ask CJRT if the whole of these descriptions are going to be published at some point, now that the artist has passed on.

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Galin wrote: That's not how I would characterize what I prefer to do

Arathorn responded: " I don't write the texts: if I see something I think contradicts something else, I'll note it" that was said by you and pretty much proves what I was talking about
Well, what you were talking about was the assertion that I: '... prefer to put more contradiction in a work that already has a lot of them...'

Which is not true. What I prefer to do is interpret a passage honestly. I don't 'prefer' more contradiction. I'll gladly read two (or more) passages in such a way that they can be said to agree -- but any arguable 'wriggling' in order to say that two passages 'agree' is a subjective measure.


And with respect to 'more contradiction' in another context, see my posts about 'canon' where I am often arguing that some are, in a sense 'creating' contradiction, or accepting 'contradiction' from an internal perspective where no contradiction 'truly exists' (again from an internal viewpoint), in my opinion.

Of course I am simplifying that argument for brevity here.

Last edited by Galin; 11-10-2014 at 12:11 PM.
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Old 11-10-2014, 12:56 PM   #16
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The truth be said there is nothing that supports your thoughts about your interpretation. It's just a lonely passage with nothing backing that up while the other where Noldor and Numenoreans are seem as equal in height has a lot of notes including late ones.
I've seen you trying to match up Galadriel height of 6'4'' (as the tallest of all the woman of the Noldor) with you interpretation that the Noldor woman average 6'(ignoring "seldom less" in my opinion anyway) so she could be the tallest. Now come on!! we both know that even accepting your interpretation a 4 foot difference between the tallest and the average doesn't make sense at all.
That being said you tried to fit that so why can't you fit the other passages that are much easier. I mean that hole passage doesn't even make sense even more when he talks about Celeborn being 6'4'' too, even knowing he is a Teler LORD and recognized as tall, and by you 6'6'' is their average so how can he be below that??? - NOW THAT'S AN INCONSISTENCY WE SHOULD GIVE MORE WEIGHT TO.
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Old 11-10-2014, 06:03 PM   #17
Galin
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The truth be said there is nothing that supports your thoughts about your interpretation.
There are (at least) two descriptions Tolkien made in reaction to the Baynes artwork, one about the Eldar, the other about the Numenoreans in which Elendil, in my opinion, is much shorter than in yet another note about Elendil's height. Elendil being 'only' 7 feet tall-ish (whether you agree with this or not) is included in my opinion along with the text on the Eldar -- since these texts do have an arguable connection, at least.

In any case it hardly matters. All we need is one text in which Tolkien changes his mind, and an interpretation of that text.


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I've seen you trying to match up Galadriel height of 6'4'' (as the tallest of all the woman of the Noldor) with you interpretation that the Noldor woman average 6' (ignoring "seldom less" in my opinion anyway) so she could be the tallest. Now come on!! we both know that even accepting your interpretation a 4 foot difference between the tallest and the average doesn't make sense at all.
Four foot difference? Are you referring to something I said at another site? I would have to refresh my memory with my actual post and argument if so.


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I mean that hole passage doesn't even make sense even more when he talks about Celeborn being 6'4'' too, even knowing he is a Teler LORD and recognized as tall, and by you 6'6'' is their average so how can he be below that??? - NOW THAT'S AN INCONSISTENCY WE SHOULD GIVE MORE WEIGHT TO.
Again I would have to see what I actually said, in full context, before (possibly) responding to what you are claiming I said.

Also large letters can be seen as yelling

Last edited by Galin; 11-10-2014 at 08:45 PM.
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Old 11-10-2014, 08:44 PM   #18
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There are (at least) two notes Tolkien made in reaction to the Baynes artwork, one about the Eldar, the other about the Numenoreans in which Elendil, in my opinion, is much shorter than in yet another note. Elendil being 'only' 7 feet tall-ish is part of my opinion as I read the text on the Eldar -- since these texts do have an arguable connection, at least.

In any case it hardly matters. All we need is one text in which Tolkien changes his mind, and an honest interpretation of that text.


So you suggest that because he made Elendil and the nobles Numenoreans shorter 'The Numenoreans before the Downfall were a people of great stature and strength, the Kings of Men, their full grown men were commonly seven feet tall, especially in the royal and noble houses.' it would have something to do with your interpretation about the Eldar being 6'6"?

Four foot difference... huh?

You know what I mean... that's like the difference between me and my uncle and I'm nothing spectacularly tall and neither is my uncle very short.

Passages that you claim are 'much easier' that is.

You are starting not to think rationally if you think 6'4" is the tallest of a people that average 6' and my interpretation only take 6'6" as a minimum thus the average being close to 7'(but not seven which are the Noldor more often). If that's not an easier claim at least in comparison to Galadriel's contradiction I'm done.


Yet again I can't follow what argument you claim I am making on some other site at some point in the past. Since I haven't made the argument here yet, what you are doing here is characterizing something I said elsewhere, as you see it...

... and then arguing with your characterization. I would have to see what I actually said before responding, and in full context.


Stop with explanations... you know you tried to fit 6' average with 6'4" of Galadriel. I mean even I that don't actually like inconsistencies know that there is no solution.
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Old 11-10-2014, 09:48 PM   #19
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So you suggest that because he made Elendil and the nobles Numenoreans shorter 'The Numenoreans before the Downfall were a people of great stature and strength, the Kings of Men, their full grown men were commonly seven feet tall, especially in the royal and noble houses.' it would have something to do with your interpretation about the Eldar being 6'6"?
The shortening of Elendil (in my opinion, and only worded that way if this text is later) from nearly 8 feet tall (UT) to around 7 feet tall (Tolkien's reaction to P. Baynes artwork) connects to my opinion about the Eldar (Tolkien's reaction to P. Baynes artwork). We have been over this matter of Elendil at another thread at this site.


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You are starting not to think rationally if you think 6'4" is the tallest of a people that average 6' and my interpretation only take 6'6" as a minimum thus the average being close to 7' (but not seven which are the Noldor more often). If that's not an easier claim at least in comparison to Galadriel's contradiction I'm done.
Again, I stand by what I actually said at some other site. Not what you claim I said at this site.

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Stop with explanations... you know you tried to fit 6' average with 6'4" of Galadriel. I mean even I that don't actually like inconsistencies know that there is no solution.
This seems to be your argument style all too often. Sorry, I don't agree with some of your interpretations of Tolkien, and some of your interpretations of what you think I said somewhere.

You could link to the actual discussion, for full context, and my argument can be represented in my own words -- that is, for anyone interested in reading some discussion elsewhere on the web, some time ago.

Anyone having trouble sleeping?

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Old 11-10-2014, 09:57 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Galin View Post
The shortening of Elendil (in my opinion, and only worded that way if this text is later) from nearly 8 feet tall (UT) to around 7 feet tall (Tolkien's reaction to P. Baynes artwork) connects to my opinion about the Eldar (Tolkien's reaction to P. Baynes artwork). We have been over this matter of Elendil at another thread at this site.

Anyone having trouble sleeping?
So what are your thoughts exactly about the matter? That the Numenoreans were taller than the Noldor... please explain because I admit this part just got interesting.
Hey I'm from Brasil and here at least it's not that much late.
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Old 11-10-2014, 10:16 PM   #21
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The matter of Elendil's stature in UT versus Elendil's stature in the 'artwork notes' has already been discussed in a thread here at Barrow Downs, including my commentary about that, and my commentary about Galadriel and other texts, and so on...

... a thread which you took part in, Arathorn.
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Old 11-10-2014, 10:29 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Galin View Post
The matter of Elendil's stature in UT versus Elendil's stature in the 'artwork notes' has already been discussed in a thread here at Barrow Downs, including my commentary about that, and my commentary about Galadriel and other texts, and so on...

... a thread which you took part in, Arathorn.
It's just that I got a little confused right now, do you think the Numenoreans were taller than the Noldor by the last quotes in reaction to Pauline?
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Old 11-10-2014, 10:55 PM   #23
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As noted, already discussed here at B-downs.
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Old 11-10-2014, 10:59 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Galin View Post
As noted, already discussed here at B-downs.
Not even a quick answer like an yes or no? I though that was kind of rude.
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