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Old 10-29-2003, 05:08 PM   #1
Inderjit Sanghera
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Sting Name Changes?

Just like to discuss a few name changes, if I may.

First of all 'Mahtan' as the name of Nerdanel's father. This is encountered in LQ II. (This, is I think, though I cant be bothered to check the first time we encounter 'Mahtan'. Nerdanel first appeard in LQ I as Istarnië.)

In notes that accompany the 'Shibboleth of Fëanor' we read that Nerdanel's fathers name was what C.T thinks reads 'Sarmo' and his Epessë 'Urundil', which was more widely known. (Like 'Ereinion' was widely known by his epessë 'Gil-Galad'). Could we call him 'Urundil' or 'Sarmo Urundil' or make a note that his name was Sarmo but he was widely known as Urundil because of the copper circlet he wore on his head or just retain 'Mahtan' to avoid confusion?

'Maedhros/Maedros'-In the 'Problem of Ros' we find out that Tolkien wanted to change his name to MaedRON due to the difficulties in incorporating 'rus'-'ros' as a refernce to his red-brown hair. 'Maedros' is a combination of his mother name and nick-name, Maitimo and Russandol.

Also, the tendency of the Fëanorians in translating their mother-names, wouldn't it be better to call him Amarthan ('Fated one') then Amrod ,the Sindarin form of 'exalted'.(Of course in the Pub.Sil the twins are called Amrod (The Elder) and Amras (The Younger.)Tolkien comments on the use of Amarthan, saying 'whenever encountered' that was what was used, but what 'encountered' means I do not know, I assume it means spoken of?

Should we give their Quenya names too? I feel it would be interesting, it would also give people info. on their characters.

That is all for now.

[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
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Old 10-30-2003, 01:11 AM   #2
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It's good to see you here again, Inderjit.

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In notes that accompany the 'Shibboleth of Fëanor' we read that Nerdanel's fathers name was what C.T thinks reads 'Sarmo' and his Epessë 'Urundil', which was more widely known. (Like 'Ereinion' was widely known by his epessë 'Gil-Galad'). Could we call him 'Urundil' or 'Sarmo Urundil' or make a note that his name was Sarmo but he was widely known as Urundil because of the copper circlet he wore on his head or just retain 'Mahtan' to avoid confusion?
Well. I had never noticed that "Mahtan" was discarded. I must say I rather liked the name - but of course that's irrelevant. It looks to me like "Sarmo" replaced it; so we'll have to go with "Sarmo Urundil". We can probably insert the information on his epesse from Shibboleth.

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'Maedhros/Maedros'-In the 'Problem of Ros' we find out that Tolkien wanted to change his name to MaedRON due to the difficulties in incorporating 'rus'-'ros' as a refernce to his red-brown hair. 'Maedros' is a combination of his mother name and nick-name, Maitimo and Russandol.
But - and correct me if I'm wrong, which I may well be - wasn't the change to "Maedron" only considered in light of the new proposal for "rus-","ros-", a proposal which failed due to Cair Andros? If so, then it must be considered rejected.

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Tolkien comments on the use of Amarthan, saying 'whenever encountered' that was what was used, but what 'encountered' means I do not know, I assume it means spoken of?
Where is this found?

Since "Amrod" was retained in the Shibboleth, I'd rather stick with it, unless there's something I'm missing. And I always presumed that "Amrod" was translated not from "Umbarto" but from "Ambarto". But I guess there's no real evidence for or against this.

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Should we give their Quenya names too? I feel it would be interesting, it would also give people info. on their characters.
I think it would be nice to insert this (and more) information from the Shibboleth.
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Old 10-30-2003, 04:28 AM   #3
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Sting

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But - and correct me if I'm wrong, which I may well be - wasn't the change to "Maedron" only considered in light of the new proposal for "rus-","ros-", a proposal which failed due to Cair Andros? If so, then it must be considered rejected.
In the 'Shibboleth of Fëanor' Tolkien was looking at the 'translations' of the Quenya names of the Finwëans into the Sindarin names. He concluded that 'Maedros' was a combination of Maedros's mother-name, Maitimo and Russandol. (Maiti-> Northern Sindarin Maed=shapely; Russ->Ros(s)=Red-haired. (Of course here I give the meanings of the 'names' not the actual words from which they were derived from, which naturally were altered in the making of the names.) So the 'Ros' that was intended in 'Maedros' to be a reference to his red-brown hair cannot be so, since in the Appendix Tolkien states the Isle of Cair Andros means 'Ship of Long foam' and so the arguments on the Bëorian elements of 'ros' go out the window as well. Tolkien states that he would use 'Maedron' from 'now on' but he didn't get much of a chance since he was nearing the end of his life. (This was written sometime in 1968, he died in 1973.)

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Where is this found? Since "Amrod" was retained in the Shibboleth, I'd rather stick with it, unless there's something I'm missing. And I always presumed that "Amrod" was translated not from "Umbarto" but from "Ambarto". But I guess there's no real evidence for or against this
[QUOTE]Amros(1) Sindarin for Ambarussa. Had Amros(2) Ambarto lived, it [i.e. the name Ambarto] would probably have been [Sindarized] as Amrod, but when [?encountered] at all in Sindarin form it was [?] Amarthan Fated One. S. ambart- > ammarth, amarth fate = Umbarto.
Maedros, Maglor, Celegorm, Curufin, Caranthir, Amros, Amarthan./QUOTE]

These are the notes on the translation on the Sindarin names of the sons of Fëanor, which C.T stated were too illegible for him to print there. They are found in 'Vinyar Tengwar 39'.
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Old 10-30-2003, 12:03 PM   #4
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So the 'Ros' that was intended in 'Maedros' to be a reference to his red-brown hair cannot be so, since in the Appendix Tolkien states the Isle of Cair Andros means 'Ship of Long foam' and so the arguments on the Bëorian elements of 'ros' go out the window as well.
But "Maedhros" was not intended to have a Beorian etymology (obviously). The change to "Maedron" appears to be in light of the change (which failed) of "ros-" to a Beorian stem.

In other words, the original situation, the one that was preserved by the failure of the "Ros" idea, is that there are two distinct stems, one meaning "red-brown" and the other meaning "foam". Tolkien wanted to alter this so that the single meaning was "foam", and this was Beorian. But "Cair Andros" is a sindarin name, so the solution change was no good.

In other words, I think that "Maedron" is dependent on the abandoned idea, and should thus not be used.

Regarding "Amrod": the sense I get from the quote is that "Amrod" is the form to be used. It is difficult to judge what he means by "whenever encountered" (if that's even what he wrote). But it is clear that "Amrod" would have been the Sindarization of the name actually used. The difference comes down to a translation of "Ambarto" vs. a translation of "Umbarto".

Of course, this situation is different from most name decisions because in fact both names are certainly valid and the decision is not which to take as canonical but which to use when he must be referred to.
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Old 10-31-2003, 07:42 AM   #5
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“But "Maedhros" was not intended to have a Beorian etymology (obviously). The change to "Maedron" appears to be in light of the change (which failed) of "ros-" to a Beorian stem.
In other words, the original situation, the one that was preserved by the failure of the "Ros" idea, is that there are two distinct stems, one meaning "red-brown" and the other meaning "foam". Tolkien wanted to alter this so that the single meaning was "foam", and this was Beorian. But "Cair Andros" is a Sindarin name, so the solution change was no good.”
The change from ‘ros’ to ‘ron’ was not in light of the change of ‘ros’ from Sindarin to Bëorian (Well, not fully so) but the Sindarin meaning of ‘Ros’ as “spray; spindrift” which had been fixed by Tolkien to mean in Sindarin ‘spray/spindrift’ and hence it would have nothing to do with Maedros’s name and the element of “ros” which is meant to be a reference to his reddish-brown hair.

Of course there are several conclusions that we can reach from this. We can comment on the often ‘incorrect’ Sindarinization (If there is such a word) of the names of the Etyañgoldi (Such as say Aegnor) and so when translating his name and trying to find a Sindarin alternative, or the nearest Sindarin alternative to Ñoldorin and Telerin Quenya urus=RUSSandol, he stumbled upon or made up ‘Ros’ But this is unsatisfactory. The Sindarin form of “ros”=spray has nothing to do with the colour red and thus the two cannot be linked. Surely a Ñoldo would not make such a calamitous phonetic error especially in regards to his name? We do hear that with the exception of Maglor and Curufin the sons of Fëanor weren’t very semantically inclined but such a blunder is perplexing in my mind.

Another theory that we can come up with is the form of ’ros’ in Cair AndROS can be seen as ‘incorrect’ since in ‘Rivers and Beacon Hills of Gondor’ we hear;
his
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“He points out that Sindarin was not well-known to many of the settlers who gave the names, mariners, soldiers, and emigrants, though all aspired to have some knowledge of it. Gondor was certainly occupied from its beginning by the Faithful, men of the Elf-friend party and their followers; and these in revolt against the ‘Adunaic' Kings who forbade the use of the Elvish tongues gave all new names in the new realm in Sindarin, or adapted older names to the manner of Sindarin. They also renewed and encouraged the study of Quenya, in which important documents, titles, and formulas were composed. But mistakes were likely to be made”
If we say that the settlers named ‘Cair Andros’ we can of course say that the ‘Ros’ stem was a mistake, perhaps stemming from the meaning of ‘Ros’ in Adûnaic (Though they had ‘revolted’ against it they may have been confused over some words or used some) or that it was a simple mis-interpretation of Sindarin Ros. Of course such a blunder is unlikely but it is more likely to come from Men of the Second/Third Age then a Ñoldorin prince. So we can keep the idea that the ’ros’ in Elros etc was a Bëorian word, and that Sindarin form of ‘ros’ meant red, and we could now if you want keep Maedros and the name would make sense. Though of course whether such a catastrophic change is possible is questionable.

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Of course, this situation is different from most name decisions because in fact both names are certainly valid and the decision is not which to take as canonical but which to use when he must be referred to
Certainly, but aren’t you a firm advocate against personal opinions in regards to a Re-published Silmarillion. (I.E it shouldn’t be what you “like” better”). But ‘Amarthan’ would to me be the more ‘famous’ of the two names in consideration of his fate plus in general the sons of Fëanor tended to Sindarinize their mother names.

Of course any change of the ‘ros’ form would effect the name ‘Amros’ derived from his mother-name Ambarussa.
But I think the easiest solution could be to simply record ‘ros’ as a addition by the Ñoldor for the colour red, derived from russa.
his
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Old 10-31-2003, 02:17 PM   #6
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I still disagree about "Maedron". But I'm home for the weekend and so, alas, without HoMe XII; and I don't want to venture into an analysis of "Ros" without having it in front of me. So I'll get back to you regarding this whole business sometime late Tuesday or Wednesday.

And, by the way, thanks for pointing out these issues. All three (Mahtan, Maedhros, and Amrod) had escaped me completely.

[ October 31, 2003: Message edited by: Aiwendil ]
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Old 11-04-2003, 11:35 PM   #7
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Okay, I've been reunited with my books.

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The change from ‘ros’ to ‘ron’ was not in light of the change of ‘ros’ from Sindarin to Bëorian (Well, not fully so) but the Sindarin meaning of ‘Ros’ as “spray; spindrift” which had been fixed by Tolkien to mean in Sindarin ‘spray/spindrift’ and hence it would have nothing to do with Maedros’s name and the element of “ros” which is meant to be a reference to his reddish-brown hair.
My understanding is this. Originally there were to be two separate Eldarin stems, one meaning "reddish-brown" and the other meaning "spray/spindrift". The change proposed in "Ros" is that there is only one stem, meaning "spray", and that this is Beorian. But this had to be dropped because of "Cair Andros".

So as I see it the change of "Maedhros" to "Maedron" does depend on the change in "The Problem of Ros".

If we decide to use "Maedron" we are essentially electing to keep half of the change. But my impression is that the whole idea was rejected.

Nonetheless it's an interesting question and I'm eager to hear what others have to say.

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Certainly, but aren’t you a firm advocate against personal opinions in regards to a Re-published Silmarillion. (I.E it shouldn’t be what you “like” better”).
Quite so. My point was just that, whether we call him "Amarthan" or "Amrod", we are in no case violating the "true" or canonical pseudo-history. It's more a matter of style than of canon. Of course that doesn't mean we can ignore it. You're right that the sons of Feanor tended to Sindarinize their mother-names, but in a sense, "Amrod" is a Sindarinization of his mother-name. For "Ambarto" was the mother-name he was actually known by prior to his death, "Umbarto" being the true but unused form.

That note is really quite mystifying, though - what could be meant by "when encountered at all"? Does it mean that the Noldor called him "Amarthan" after his death? Or does it mean that texts call him "Amarthan"?

Do you know roughly when that note was written?

All this may be somewhat moot, though; there will not be so very many occasions to refer to Amrod other than at his birth and at his death, in both of which cases his names will play a central role (and hence they will not necessitate a simple Amrod/Amarthan decision).
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Old 11-07-2003, 08:52 AM   #8
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My understanding is this. Originally there were to be two separate Eldarin stems, one meaning "reddish-brown" and the other meaning "spray/spindrift". The change proposed in "Ros" is that there is only one stem, meaning "spray", and that this is Beorian. But this had to be dropped because of "Cair Andros".
Yes-but one wonders why the word -ros has two entirely different meanings? Tolkien comments on this in the Problem or Ros.

Of course we could just say that -ros had two unconnected meanings, regardless of whether or not this makes any sense, claim as is said in 'Of Dwarves and Men' and 'Rivers and Beacon Hills of Gondor' that the rendering of the names within Gondor was inncaurate because of the inadequate knowledge of Sindarin of the people who named the places in Gondor and so and so keep -ros as a word for the colour red, and -ros also as a Bëorian word for spray/spindrift.

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Nonetheless it's an interesting question and I'm eager to hear what others have to say.
As am I. It would be helpful if a language expert interjected, or anyone from this forum, it would be nice for other opinions, beside mine and yours.

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You're right that the sons of Feanor tended to Sindarinize their mother-names, but in a sense, "Amrod" is a Sindarinization of his mother-name. For "Ambarto" was the mother-name he was actually known by prior to his death, "Umbarto" being the true but unused form
No one really called him A/Umbarto. They called each other Ambarussa, and everyone else called them Minyarussa and Atyarussa. Fëanor of course would have adress them by their father names. Maybe when they went to Formenos, they were adress by their father names, a large part of that host being wholly loyal to Fëanor and thus adopt his cutoms?

Of course, one can see the sensibility of adopting 'Amrod' rather then 'Amarthan', since it was his 'proper' name, but I think Amarthan would have been the one that was remembered because of his fate.

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Does it mean that the Noldor called him "Amarthan" after his death? Or does it mean that texts call him "Amarthan"?
I think it does means both. If he was called Amarthan then surely it would have been written so, by the Ñoldorin scribes or the Númenóreans.

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Do you know roughly when that note was written?
Same time as the Shibboleth, c.1968.
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Old 11-07-2003, 11:41 AM   #9
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Of course we could just say that -ros had two unconnected meanings, regardless of whether or not this makes any sense, claim as is said in 'Of Dwarves and Men' and 'Rivers and Beacon Hills of Gondor' that the rendering of the names within Gondor was inncaurate because of the inadequate knowledge of Sindarin of the people who named the places in Gondor and so and so keep -ros as a word for the colour red, and -ros also as a Bëorian word for spray/spindrift.
You seem to be assuming (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that if "ros" has two distinct meanings, then one must be from Beorian and one from Sindarin.

But prior to the writing of "The Problem of Ros", it had two distinct meanings, both in Sindarin; and in fact these two senses, according to the Etymologies, are from different stems. One is ROS- and the other RUS-. In fact, Etymologies even has some instances of the same stem bearing two distinct meanings; there is, for example, another ROS- meaning "plain".

So what I had been assuming, in light of the rejection of the revised "Ros" idea, is that we would return to the situation where ROS- refers to "spray/spindrift" and RUS- to "reddish-brown, copper". In this case, "Maedhros", "Russandol", "Ambarussa", and so on, can all be retained alongside "Cair Andros", "Elros", etc.

The other option is to eliminate the RUS- stem and leave ROS- as it is. But it is perhaps significant that this solution (which would seem the simplest) was never proposed by Tolkien. It would also leave us in a difficult spot with regard to other names and words derived from RUS-. For "Maedhros" we have a possible replacement, but not for "Russandol", "Ambarussa", or anything else.

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As am I. It would be helpful if a language expert interjected, or anyone from this forum, it would be nice for other opinions, beside mine and yours.
Alas that Jallanite lost interest in the project!

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No one really called him A/Umbarto. They called each other Ambarussa, and everyone else called them Minyarussa and Atyarussa. Fëanor of course would have adress them by their father names.
I think it's possible that he was referred to by his mother-name sometimes in Valinor. Would not Nerdanel have called him by it? Also, it seems unlikely that the sons of Feanor would Sindarize their mother-names rather than their father-names if the former had never been used.
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Old 12-15-2003, 02:21 PM   #10
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Just a thought no one's mentioned, but Orodreth should be changed to Arothir, and he is the son of angrod, not finarfin. I can't find where it says this, but it's in the note on Gil-galad's parentage in PoME.
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Old 12-20-2003, 03:11 PM   #11
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Arothir is one of his names. But Orodreth is still valid when we follow "The decendents of Finwë" in "The shibboleth of Fëanor" where Arothir is given.

In the case of his parentage you are clearly right.

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Old 12-20-2003, 03:26 PM   #12
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Yes, but Tolkien in one of his notes to shibboleth refers to Gil-galad being the son of Arothir, who is said to be Felagund's nephew and steward.
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Old 12-21-2003, 12:05 PM   #13
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Forgive that last post, I was missing the point. Orodreth is not a valid name. In genealogies around the time but perhaps before the Shibboleth, he is called in Quenya Artaresto and in Sindarin Orodreth. This later becomes in Quenya Artaher and in Sindarin Arothir. This can be found in the note on Gilgalad's parentage in POME
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Old 12-21-2003, 10:21 PM   #14
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I thought that "Arothir" was his proper Sindarin name and "Orodreth" an epesse given due to his love for the mountains. I am inclined to think that "Orodreth" is still valid. But I may be wrong. I will have to look at Shibboleth again.
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Old 12-22-2003, 10:25 AM   #15
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You are thinking of his name Artaresto, which in Sindarin is Rodreth which became Orodreth for his love of the mountains.
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Old 12-22-2003, 11:07 AM   #16
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From The Peoples of ME: The Shibboleth of Fëanor
Quote:
The names of Sindarin form by which they were usually called in later song and legend were Finrod, Angrod (with wife Eðellos and son Arothir), Aegnor, and Galadriel.
In names however that ended in old words referring to status, rank, profession, race or kindred and so on the adjectival element still in Sindarin, following ancient models, might be placed first. Quenya Artaher (stem artahēr-) 'noble lord' was correctly Sindarized as Arothir.
The name of Angrod's son (still retaining the identity of 'Orodreth') was then changed from Artanáro to Artaresto. In an isolated note found with the genealogies, scribbled at great speed but nonetheless dated, August 1965, my father suggested that the best solution to the problem of Gil-galad's parentage was to find him in 'the son of Orodreth', who is here given the Quenya name of Artaresto, and continued:
Finrod left his wife in Valinor and had no children in exile. Angrod's son was Artaresto, who was beloved by Finrod and escaped when Angrod was slain, and dwelt with Finrod. Finrod made him his 'steward' and he succeeded him in Nargothrond. His Sindarin name was Rodreth (altered to Orodreth because of his love of the mountains .. ..... His children were Finduilas and Artanáro = Rodnor later called Gil-galad. (Their mother was a Sindarin lady of the North. She called her son Gil-galad.) Rodnor Gil-galad escaped and eventually came to Sirion's Mouth and was King of the Ñoldor there.
The words that I cannot read contain apparently a preposition and a proper name, and this latter could be faroth (the High Faroth west of the river Narog). - In the last of the genealogical tables Artanaro (Rodnor) called Gil-galad appears, with the note that 'he escaped and dwelt at Sirion's Mouth'. The only further change was the rejection of the name Artaresto and its replacement by Artaher, Sindarin Arothir; and thus in the excursus (note 23) Arothir [Orodreth] is named as Finrod's 'kinsman and steward', and (note 47) Gil-galad is 'the son of Arothir, nephew of Finrod'.
It seems that as Arothir suggests, the Sindarized name of Orodreth is indeed Arothir and that Orodreth is not an epessë, leaving therefore Orodreth as an invalid name.
By some strange reason I find myself liking the name Orodreth, so if I'm mistaken please let me know.
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Old 12-22-2003, 03:12 PM   #17
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I prefer Arothir. It sounds more noble and almost Quenya like. Has the spelling of Maedros been discussed? As in the dh or d?
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Old 12-23-2003, 11:20 AM   #18
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What about Maelor, that was a change that Tolkien sometimes made to Maglor.
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Old 12-24-2003, 12:37 PM   #19
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'Maelor' was used in the LQI (HoME 10) and in some notes which deal with Celebrimbor's lineage, which was given in the appendix to 'Of Dwarves and Men'. Both pre-date 'The Shibboleth of Fëanor (HoME 12), in which the name Maglor became fixed as his proper name.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 1:39 PM December 24, 2003: Message edited by: Inderjit Sanghera ]
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Old 03-14-2004, 10:24 PM   #20
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Regarding Orodreth/Artaresto/Artaher. It seems that the correct sindarized named of Artaher is Arothir, instead of the Rodreth - Orodreth name.
But does that mean necessarily that [Orodreth] would use the correct sindarized name Arothir? Lets suppose for a moment that we should use Arothir for the name of [Orodreth]. How then can we explain the use of the name Orodreth from the Ruling Stewards of Gondor?
From The Lord of the Rings: Appendix A
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Hallas 2605, Húrin II 2628, Belecthor I 2655, Orodreth 2685, Ecthelion I 2698, Egalmoth 2743, Beren 2763, Beregond 2811, Belecthor II 2872, Thorondir 2882, Túrin II 2914, Turgon 2953, Ecthelion II 2984, Denethor II. He was the last of the Ruling Stewards, and was followed by his second son Faramir, Lord of Emyn Arnen, Steward to King Elessar, F.A. 82.
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Old 03-16-2004, 10:29 AM   #21
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That is an excellent point that I never would have caught.

One could argue that the presence of the name "Orodreth" in LotR makes the change to "Arothir" a violation of principle 1 - that the texts published in Tolkien's lifetime are given first priority. That argument relies on the claim that there is a contradiction between the "Arothir" change and the name "Orodreth" in LotR.

So we must decide whether there is such a contradiction.

One could argue that "Orodreth" is a perfectly valid name for a steward of Gondor whether or not there was a First Age Orodreth. But clearly when the Appendix was written, Orodreth the Steward was intended to be named after Orodreth of Nargothrond.

I'm not yet sure what to make of all this.
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Old 03-17-2004, 08:27 AM   #22
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A further note to take of is this:
From the Shibboleth of Fëanor
Quote:
The Sindarizing of these names as Fingon and Turgon shows knowledge of the sound-changes distinguishing Sindarin from Telerin, but disregards meaning. If these names had actually been ancient Sindarin names they would at the time of the coming of the Exiles have taken the forms Fingon and Turgon, but they would not have had their Quenya meanings, if interpretable at all. Possibly they would have conveyed 'Hair-shout' and 'Master-shout' [see note 36]. But this did not matter much since old Sindarin names had by that time frequently become obscured by sound-changes and were taken as names and not analysed.
This can be interpreted to mean that while Arothir is the correct sindarized name of [Orodreth], that does not mean that it was the one that was used, because as said in the previous quote, some of the old Sindarin names had been obscured by sound-changes and were taken as name and not analysed.
Plus the fact posted by Aiwendil that Orodreth the Steward of Gondor had that name because of [Orodreth] the King of Nargothrond.
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Old 11-06-2006, 08:37 PM   #23
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Re-reading this thread I noticed something - in note 65 to the "Shibboleth", it is stated that in a note associated with the text, the Sindarization of "Ambarussa" is given as "Amros" rather than "Amras".

Does this mean that we should be implementing a general change Amras > Amros? Or is there a later instance of "Amras" that nullifies the change?
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Old 11-07-2006, 12:48 PM   #24
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I think Amros to be better: it appears in The Shibboleth (c. 1968) whereas the LQ2 (where Amras is attested) is dated from about 1958 (Compare also with rhosc ‘brown’ in the Etymologies).

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Old 11-07-2006, 01:48 PM   #25
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Welcome to the project, aravanesse!

I think you are right - in any case, the Shibboleth is certainly later than LQ2. Unless we can find another instance of the name 'Amras' in the late writings, I think we will have to implement a change to 'Amros'.
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Old 11-08-2006, 05:27 AM   #26
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Thank you.

Amros is also attested in a text dated from 1968 or later (in any cases, after the Shibboleth of Fëqnor), cf. The Problem of ROS.
I have not found another references of Amras in HoMe X, XI and XII that don't belong to LQ2 or to a later text.
(Moreover, what do you think about the 'five sons of Fëanor' mentioned in HoMe XI p. 329 ?)

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Old 11-08-2006, 12:06 PM   #27
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A warm welcome to the project aravanessë from my side as well.

Concerning Amros: A good catch by you, Aiwendil. I could alos not find any later reference to Amras, so I will take up the general change: {Díriel}[Amros] and {Amras}[Amros].

About the 5 sons of Fëanor: This is one of the hard puzzels. My take at it would be that he meant the five cheifs of realms in exil which were:
Marches of Maeðros
Maelors Gap
Himlad and the Pass of Aglon -> Celegorm
Dor Caranthir
Plian of East Beleriand -> Amros

We see Curufin only together with his older brother Celegorm, so he might be missing from thelist of rulers.

On the other hand Amros could be missing because I Ever have the feeling that East Beleriand was not realy a realm. But nor a hunting ground for the youngest of Fëanors sons.

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Old 11-08-2006, 01:00 PM   #28
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Quote:
About the 5 sons of Fëanor: This is one of the hard puzzels. My take at it would be that he meant the five cheifs of realms in exil which were:
Marches of Maeðros
Maelors Gap
Himlad and the Pass of Aglon -> Celegorm
Dor Caranthir
Plian of East Beleriand -> Amros

We see Curufin only together with his older brother Celegorm, so he might be missing from thelist of rulers.
Yea, it is not stupid, all the more so in the text Curufin seems to take the main part and seems to contrast to his brother. Merci beaucoup.

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Old 06-27-2009, 10:52 AM   #29
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My understanding is this. Originally there were to be two separate Eldarin stems, one meaning "reddish-brown" and the other meaning "spray/spindrift".
Yes, two are involved.

Quote:
The change proposed in "Ros" is that there is only one stem, meaning "spray", and that this is Beorian. But this had to be dropped because of "Cair Andros".
I think that the proposed change was to lift ros 'spray, spindrift' from an Eldarin context -- leaving the other word in an Eldarin context however. Tolkien wrote that it was difficult to accept these two homophonic elements, and so I think he wanted to alter one while leaving the other. In other words, if one is lifted, Tolkien's proposed difficulty of accepting the two homophonic elements is solved.

Quote:
So as I see it the change of "Maedhros" to "Maedron" does depend on the change in "The Problem of Ros". If we decide to use "Maedron" we are essentially electing to keep half of the change. But my impression is that the whole idea was rejected. Nonetheless it's an interesting question and I'm eager to hear what others have to say.
I think this change is unconnected rather -- at least specifically with respect to the failure of the essay I mean. We are given no detailed context concerning the intended change Maedros to Maedron (despite its implications) and it may be that CJRT found this a convenient place to note the change -- especially considering the first part of note 2 to The Problem of ROS, as we know that the first sentence was added by JRRT to the essay proper:

[added in the Margin: 'Though Maedros is now so long established that it would be difficult to alter'. In a later note, however, my father declared that he would change Maedros to Maedron.]

Even if this later note was attached specifically to this essay in some way, for example, the use of 'later' implies to my mind that this change was originally not connected to the specific thrust of the (failed) solution.

And if it was, I can't think why Tolkien would need to deal with both of the 'two' to solve his problem. It looks to me as if the proposed solution rather centered on a Beorian ros 'foam, white crest of waves', which could further connect to the Ship-name Rothinzil. But Andros had already been published
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Old 11-23-2010, 06:57 AM   #30
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Regarding "Amrod": the sense I get from the quote is that "Amrod" is the form to be used. It is difficult to judge what he means by "whenever encountered" (if that's even what he wrote). But it is clear that "Amrod" would have been the Sindarization of the name actually used. The difference comes down to a translation of "Ambarto" vs. a translation of "Umbarto".
I guess I'll add my (unasked for) opinion here too

This is how I take the meaning of the VT description: had Ambarto lived this name probably would have been Sindarized as Amrod -- but the key thing here is 'had' he lived -- because since he died, in practice no one in Middle-earth who spoke Sindarin (as the Noldor would do later) would call Ambarussa Ambarto 'Amros Amrod'.

But even though he died, he would still need to be referred to by some name, and in Sindarin contexts he would be known as Amarthan... again because he truly 'became' (by his death) the 'fated one' and became known as such.

In the story it was said that Feanaro either thought Nerdanel had said Ambarto, or that Feanaro changed the name himself. But Amarthan became his name in Sindarin contexts, which in a sense nicely echoes that 'rightly' he was called, or 'should' have been called, Umbarto -- as Ambarussa his brother notes in the tale proper.

That's my take on these changes anyway.

I note that Tolkien decided that 'Finrod' (Finarfin) should not have a Sindarin name because he never came to Middle-earth with his son Inglor Felagund (according to Words, Phrases and Passages this seemed to be the problem at the time). But oddly enough, in the end JRRT retained Sindarized Finarfin even though he hadn't left Aman. Tolkien still felt the need to explain this internally, being yet aware that Finwe Arafinwe would hardly be called 'Finarfin' among Quenya speakers in Aman, and he was not himself in Middle-earth as well.
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Old 11-26-2010, 11:35 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Arothir
(...) Has the spelling of Maedros been discussed? As in the dh or d?
I found a discussion of 'ð' versus 'dh' anyway, where Aiwendil noted within this discussion '(...) I think the 'dh' issue is the same, and we must revert to 'Maedhros', etc.' In full context, here:

http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=12834


So far I'm not sure dh or d has been discussed. Anyway, there are enough instances where d seems an anglicization, however, as far as I know, basically it's not an anglicization in The Shibboleth of Feanor.

Maedron may actually be the latest form, but this change might raise questions concerning the form Amros, and even possibly some Quenya forms depending on the details relating to this change.
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Old 12-01-2010, 09:34 PM   #32
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There are really three distinct issues with respect to the name 'Maedhros':

1. dh vs. ð - This is entirely an orthographic issue, and it was this that we discussed in the General Changes thread. At one point we had decided to prefer 'ð' to 'dh', but the use of 'dh' in LotR eventually convinced us to use this instead. I had thought that this issue was settled, but looking back at that thread now I'm not sure whether Findegil ever actually agreed to it. What sayst thou, Findegil?

2. dh/ð vs. d - It's not clear to me whether this is merely an issue of Anglicization or a veritable linguistic one. I'm inclined to think it's the latter, however, as normally (as far as I can remember) Tolkien does not Anglicize Sindarin 'dh' to 'd'. If it is merely an Anglicization issue, then it seems to me that we're obliged to use 'dh' since this transliteration is established in LotR. However, if it represents a real change to the Sindarin name, we must go with whatever is latest, as long as it's linguistically tenable. As far as I can tell, the form with 'd' is the later one. Note that if we adopt this, then issue 1 becomes moot.

3. -ros vs. -ron - The issue here is definitely linguistic. My understanding from XII (I don't know if any of the VT texts bear on this issue) is that "-ron" is the form that appears latest. The question, then, is whether the change from "-ros" to "-ron" is associated with the projected stem changes in "The Problem of Ros", which we must reject because of the name "Cair Andros".

Galin argued that the -ros > -ron change does not depend on the rejected points of "The Problem of Ros", but I'm not sure I agree. For one thing, the introductory statement to "The Problem of Ros" says:

Quote:
The best solution of the difficulty presented by the name Elros, fixed by mention in The Lord of the Rings, and the names of the sons of Feanor: Maedros, the eldest, and Amros, now proposed as the name of both the twins (sixth and seventh) - to which a story is attached that it is desirable to retain.
So the name "Maedros" is associated with the projected changes of "Ros" by Tolkien himself. Also, Tolkien's marginal note that "Maedros" was so long established that it would be difficult to alter implies that altering "Maedros" would be a necessary consequence of adopting the projected stem changes, and it seems at least highly plausible that these changes were the one and only reason for the name change. True, Christopher Tolkien does not say where the subsequent note that did indeed adopt "Maedron" is found. However, it seems to me that this note would provide us evidence in favor of keeping "Maedron" while rejecting the "Ros" stem changes only if it definitely derives from after Tolkien noticed "Cair Andros" and rejected the proposed changes.

My preference, then, is to go with "Maedros".
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Old 12-02-2010, 11:17 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Aiwendil View Post
(...) 2. dh/ð vs. d - It's not clear to me whether this is merely an issue of Anglicization or a veritable linguistic one. I'm inclined to think it's the latter, however, as normally (as far as I can remember) Tolkien does not Anglicize Sindarin 'dh' to 'd'. If it is merely an Anglicization issue, then it seems to me that we're obliged to use 'dh' since this transliteration is established in LotR. However, if it represents a real change to the Sindarin name, we must go with whatever is latest, as long as it's linguistically tenable. As far as I can tell, the form with 'd' is the later one. Note that if we adopt this, then issue 1 becomes moot.
I think some confusion might stem from Tolkien anglicizing even the name Maidhros/Maidros. In Etymologies for example:

Quote:
'N meið, maið, hence Maidhros (anglicized Maidros) = pale glitter [RUS]'
Here the Noldorin words involved end in ð, but this is no longer the derivation of the name in the Shibboleth of course.

Quote:
'Maedros combines elements of Nelyafinwe's mother name Maiti- (Common Eldarin magiti- shapely, Sindarin maed) and of the epesse Russandol (C. E. russá, Sindarin ross).' Vinyar Tengwar 41
The word appears to be maed not *maedh here. I'm no expert, but generally speaking I think a voiced t (d) here makes enough sense with respect to Sindarin phonology (looking at note 15 we can see a revision of Maedhros to Maedros, but we can't know if this was but a slip, changed in light of the new concept).

Quote:
3. -ros vs. -ron - The issue here is definitely linguistic. My understanding from XII (I don't know if any of the VT texts bear on this issue) is that "-ron" is the form that appears latest. The question, then, is whether the change from "-ros" to "-ron" is associated with the projected stem changes in "The Problem of Ros", which we must reject because of the name "Cair Andros".

Galin argued that the -ros > -ron change does not depend on the rejected points of "The Problem of Ros", but I'm not sure I agree. For one thing, the introductory statement to "The Problem of Ros" says: (...) So the name "Maedros" is associated with the projected changes of "Ros" by Tolkien himself.
Yes but I would say it is associated simply because the name contains one of the two Eldarin homophones that Tolkien thinks are difficult to accept.

To my mind the -ros in Maedros, outside of being the same word in form and sound, has nothing really to do with the ros in Elros, or the connection to Rothinzil or Elwing, or to Cair Andros being the reason the solution failed (in this idea Beorian ros had an older form roth, and Elros is called Elroth at one point).

This is all the 'foam, spray' side of a solution, and I think Tolkien needed to deal with only one of these words to solve his problem.


Quote:
Also, Tolkien's marginal note that "Maedros" was so long established that it would be difficult to alter implies that altering "Maedros" would be a necessary consequence of adopting the projected stem changes, and it seems at least highly plausible that these changes were the one and only reason for the name change.
I would agree that Tolkien mused (at least briefly) about altering Maedros as a possible solution. We can note that Elros is not altered by the proposed solution, as that can't be altered aside from giving it an older form Elroth.

But to me, although it's still a 'stem change' in general, it's very much about a reassignment of languages:

Quote:
'But instead of deriving them [ros, wing] from the Nandorin (or Green Elvish) of Ossiriand, it would be an improvement to derive them from the Mannish tongues: the language of Beren father of Dior; both *ros and *wing could thus be removed from Eldarin.' JRRT, The Problem of Ros
Altering Maedros is a solution that might have worked -- had Tolkien, at this point, thought it would not be difficult to alter the name -- but he did not take this path in the subsequent essay, which doesn't seem to be really concerned with anything that would necessitate altering Maedros. There should be no need to change Maedros if the solution had worked, as then these two words would not constitute Eldarin homophones.

Quote:
True, Christopher Tolkien does not say where the subsequent note that did indeed adopt "Maedron" is found. However, it seems to me that this note would provide us evidence in favor of keeping "Maedron" while rejecting the "Ros" stem changes only if it definitely derives from after Tolkien noticed "Cair Andros" and rejected the proposed changes.
Yes there's a misty element here. I agree it's certainly possible and plausible that, having failed to characterize ros 'spray, foam' as Beorian, Tolkien later attempted to solve the very same problem in a different way, by eliminating the 'red-brown' word. Incidentally, in other forums I have asked if the issue of these homophones is really necessarily that problematic, and so far have received a very limited response.

In Sindarin Maedron may simply mean *shapely one. Tolkien might have just liked this better at some point, but if he was still trying to solve the problem of the Eldarin homophones (again, not unlikely I admit), then it seems that we, or at least I, can't really know how far reaching this change might be.

I think Maedron raises questions, but we know Maedros is paired with Amros at least, even if Maedron might be later. As I say, concerning this 'later note', the simple declaration of a change Maedros to Maedron doesn't seem much to go on. CJRT noted this in a somewhat appropriate place -- appropriate here because it shows that Tolkien changed his mind despite the earlier note that Maedros would be difficult to alter.

By the way, I hope this isn't too repetitive or annoying, but having thought about this essay and the name Maedhros for a while now, it's fun to bounce my opinions off of knowledgeable Tolkien readers in some detail.

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Just for fun speculation: there's a stem RUN 'red, glowing' for example, and noting URUN 'copper' (note 61, The Shibboleth of Feanor).


Maedros was said to have worn a copper circlet and to have had red-brown hair. Again I'm no expert, but I think a C. E. *runná could yield -ron in Sindarin as well. Could part of Maedron similarly refer to hair, at least in some loose way?

But would we then also have *Ambarunna and *Runnandol? and Sindarin Maedron, Amron? or might we have some other linguistic scenario which retained certain 'russa, ros names' except for (for some reason) Maedros?

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Old 12-02-2010, 04:21 PM   #34
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1. ð vs. dh:
Even so I did not formaly declared it, I did agree to the change back from ð to dh.
I doing so I thought more about readability then anything else. For ð only a few experts will have an idea how to pronauce it correctly. For dh that is a bit better.

2. dh/ð vs. d:
If this is angelisation I am totally against it. That is for the same reason I was for dh. If we would put a simple d near to nobody would get the pronauciation right.

But if it is an linguistical issue and d is the later we should use it.

3. ros vs. ron:
This is dificult since Tolkien seems to have been switched back ward and forward. I would have to read deeper into this issu to make up my mind.

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Old 12-03-2010, 07:53 AM   #35
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I'll try a short version, based on Findegil's post, and perhaps it will help with clarity regarding my long-winded response above!


1. ð vs. dh:

This is a matter of orthography and I would go with dh as well (Galadhrim, Caras Galadhon).

2. dh/ð vs. d:

I belive this is anglicization in the 1930s -- 1950s, but by the time of The Shibboleth of Feanor we have maed 'shapely' and a Sindarization of a name. At this point I believe the d is simply d not anglicized dh (and the old meaning of this character's name is here certainly changed from 'pale glitter').

3. ros vs. ron:

A late change to -ron but one that raises questions as to the status of other 'russa, ros' names from The Shibboleth of Feanor (I'm not aware that Tolkien went back and forth here, as Findegil noted).


The problem of ros

JRRT thought that it was difficult to accept the two homophones occuring in the Eldarin tongues, since they were unconnected in meaning.

Tolkien's solution: characterize the ros of Elros ('foam, spray') as Beorian, leaving the other ros as in Maedros ('red-brown') as Eldarin. This failed because Cair Andros had already been published as meaning 'Ship of Long Foam' in a Sindarin (thus Eldarin) context.

Tolkien's 'later' declaration concerning a change to Maedron might be another solution to this, but the note, at least as commented on, is sparse on detail.

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Old 01-05-2011, 11:14 AM   #36
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Okay it is a long time since, but still I think we have the open question of

Maedros vs. Maedron
Posted by me:
Quote:
This is dificult since Tolkien seems to have been switched back ward and forward.
That was a lose interpretation of mine. It would be true if we could prove that the note in which Tolkien change the name to Maedron was NOT the last time he wrote about that charachter. But since we have no idea when these 'later note' was written and the basis of 'later' is the already late The Problem of ROS it is absolutly possible that he wrote in that note for the last time about Maedron.

Galin, if I understand you rightly, you think that after Tolkien saw that the elegant solution of the problem of ROS that was supposed in that essay failed due to Cair Andros, he solved the problem by altering the other stem ROS, beeing 'a colour word, referring to the red, red-brown hair of the first, sixth, and seventh sons of Feanor' to RUN 'red, glowing' with the word urun meaning 'copper'.
In that way you think 'Maitimo *Runnandol' sindarized his name to 'Maedron'. Therefore and since Tolkien did not provide a fitting sindarization you supposd '*Ambarunna' to become '*Amron'.

That is also a very elagant solution, but I am not so sure Tolkien did think about it in the way you do.
Let's talk about the Quenya names first: I agree that the later mentioning of the stem RUN and word urun would replace ROS and would make the names [i]Rusco[i/], Russandol and Ambarussa unusable. For Rusco 'fox' as an eppesse of Nerdanels father we have the replacement Urundil 'copper-lover'. That said the new form for older Russandol 'copper-top' should be *Urundol, I think. And for old Ambarussa I would think we should get *Ambarun

Now lets go to Sindarin: What I miss is a prove that Maedron still had the same meaning as Maedros. Okay, Maedros might have had no proper meaning because it is an sindarized mix of Maitimo and Russandol. But it would still mean somthing like 'well-shaped copper' or less litarily 'well-shaped red one'. Does Maedron mean the same? I don't think so. I would rather think that it is a translation of Maitimo thus meaning 'well-shaped one' as in Sauron 'adhorred one' or in (Aran) Tauron 'the (king) forester'. Further names with that ending are Daeron and Gethron, but I did not check the meaning of these (if they are given at all). Thus we do neither know the proper Mothername of the twins nor the translation for it into Sindarin.

Thus Aiwendil is in a sense right: If we change Maedros to Maedron but keep Russandol, Ambarussa and Amros we do not solve the problem of ROS at all.
But I do not see how we can do better, without violating our rules.

The simple question is then: Do we consider the Maedron note to be Tolkiens last idea? (It is clearly not a case of an idea that can not be integrate, since it is easy to make and even so it does not effectly amend the problem of ROS, it does also not make it worth.)

What remains in addition are the names Russandol and Ambarussa. Do we consider them outdated with the note about the stem RUN 'red, glowing'?
Russandol we could simply skip but for Ambarussa we would need a replacment.
Any ideas?

One further point found in this thread posted by Inderjit Sanghera:
Quote:
'Maelor' was used in the LQI (HoME 10) and in some notes which deal with Celebrimbor's lineage, which was given in the appendix to 'Of Dwarves and Men'. Both pre-date 'The Shibboleth of Fëanor (HoME 12), in which the name Maglor became fixed as his proper name.
That Maglor is fixed in The shibboleth of Fëanor, seems a bit overestimated. The name is only once mentioned and that is in a footnote to the text proper. Maelor was also used in the Later lay of Leithian but that does predate the Shibboleth as well. In LQ2 we have again Maglor. But in a Note written into the second edition of The Lord of the Rings Tolkien used again Maelor. The note is of course of unknown date but it is later then 1966. So Maelor was at leat not as short lifed as one could think from what Inderjit wrote.
Up to now we have adopted Maelor. Due we stick to this?

Respectfuly
Findegil

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Old 01-05-2011, 03:38 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Findegil
(...) Galin, if I understand you rightly, you think that after Tolkien saw that the elegant solution of the problem of ROS that was supposed in that essay failed due to Cair Andros, he solved the problem by altering the other stem ROS, beeing 'a colour word, referring to the red, red-brown hair of the first, sixth, and seventh sons of Feanor' to RUN 'red, glowing' with the word urun meaning 'copper'. In that way you think 'Maitimo *Runnandol' sindarized his name to 'Maedron'. Therefore and since Tolkien did not provide a fitting sindarization you supposd '*Ambarunna' to become '*Amron'.

That is also a very elagant solution, but I am not so sure Tolkien did think about it in the way you do.
I don't think Tolkien himself necessarily thought of it this way either

I would stress that my theories concerning RUN in a previous post were for fun speculation.

Quote:
Let's talk about the Quenya names first: I agree that the later mentioning of the stem RUN and word urun would replace ROS and would make the names Rusco, Russandol and Ambarussa unusable. For Rusco 'fox' as an eppesse of Nerdanels father we have the replacement Urundil 'copper-lover'. That said the new form for older Russandol 'copper-top' should be *Urundol, I think.
The name *Runnandol is based on an adjectival *runná (I'm not positive but I think russa hails from older adjectival *rusná). *Urundol also seems an arguable construction to me, I was just echoing the existing name.

Quote:
And for old Ambarussa I would think we should get *Ambarun
That echoes my hypothetical *Ambarunna, cut shorter of course

Again I was trying to echo Ambarussa. And just to note it, the shorter version alters the primary stress.

Quote:
Now lets go to Sindarin: What I miss is a prove that Maedron still had the same meaning as Maedros. Okay, Maedros might have had no proper meaning because it is an sindarized mix of Maitimo and Russandol. But it would still mean somthing like 'well-shaped copper' or less litarily 'well-shaped red one'. Does Maedron mean the same? I don't think so. I would rather think that it is a translation of Maitimo thus meaning 'well-shaped one' as in (...)
Yes, it could certainly mean that. Roman Rausch suggested this to me last year, but in any case I certainly have no proof whatsover that Maedron still carries a 'copper related' sense. Again that was pure speculation. The problem is the brevity of this late note.

Quote:
Thus Aiwendil is in a sense right: If we change Maedros to Maedron but keep Russandol, Ambarussa and Amros we do not solve the problem of ROS at all. But I do not see how we can do better, without violating our rules.
It still seems possible, at least, that Maedros becomes Maedron and all the other 'ros' related names (Quenya and Sindarin) remain unchanged -- in other words, it's possible that Tolkien was not here thinking of solving his problem, but simply liked Maedron better and desired it to mean basically the same as Maitimo.


The speculation goes on!

Quote:
The simple question is then: Do we consider the Maedron note to be Tolkiens last idea? (It is clearly not a case of an idea that can not be integrate, since it is easy to make and even so it does not effectly amend the problem of ROS, it does also not make it worth.)
As for the question of dating...

Quote:
2 [Added in the Margin: 'Though Maedros is now so long established that it would be difficult to alter'. In a later note, however, my father declared that he would change Maedros to Maedron.'] JRRT, CJRT The Problem of ROS
For myself, I find it unlikely -- or less likely at least -- that CJRT is here simply explaining that the 'Maedron note' is another later note in general; that is, not necessarily later than the note he quotes here, which appears to date at the time of the essay proper.

The early forms have -ros going way back, and Tolkien seems to think a name with -ros has been too established at this point. I think that CJRT would have noted something like: 'In another late note, however...' if he was uncertain as to which statement followed the other.

So I read it as: a 'later' note than even the late note to the Shibboleth.

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Old 01-06-2011, 03:28 AM   #38
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About the dating of the note to change Maedros to Maedron: It seems I was not clear enough in my last post. I have no doubt, that the note is later then the text of Shibboleth. So the fact we can be sure of is that the note was later then 1968 when the Shibboleth was written. But that does not make it necessarly the last mention of the charachter of Feanors eldest son.
Anyway, we have other examples were Tolkien needed some time to addapt to a name change, so even if we could find a later mentioning of Maedros we could consider it as a slip of the pen.

Since it corrospondce nicely to establishment of the new stem RUN, I would think Maedron is the right choice.

What do other think about it?

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Old 01-06-2011, 07:16 AM   #39
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Ah, I see what you mean now Findegil. And later than the Shibboleth still isn't specific, so even an arguably later (than the Shibboleth) occurance of Maedros leaves one up in the air a bit.

This touches upon Maelor: both Maedros and Maelor appear in the note published (in the notes to) Of Dwarves And Men -- along with the idea that one of the Amros twins was burned in the ships -- and CJRT suggests that the sinister story arose during the composition of the text noted in The Shibboleth of Feanor -- that is, in the text The names of the Sons of Feanor with the legend of the fate of Amrod and so on.

Hmmm.
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Old 01-07-2011, 08:31 AM   #40
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Okay, to spare you a long windig search: In post #3 Inderjit Sanghera gave a quote from On Sindarizing of the names [of the sons of Fëanor]. He said that it came from Vinyar Tengwar 39. Since I wanted to read that in full context, I searched for it and found it at last in [Vinyar Tengwar 41[/i]. Since I am sure we will need at least part of it later on in the project, I give the text here in full:
Quote:
Immediately following the legend of the fate of Amrod (XII:353-55) is a set of notes, labelled "On Sindarizing of the names", keyed to the numbered list of the names of the seven sons of Fëanor (XII:352-53). Cf. XII:366 n.65.

1) Maedros combines elements of Nelyafinwe's mother name Maiti- (Commen Eldarin magiti- shapely, Sindarin maed) and of the epesse russandol (C.E. russā, S. ross).
2) Makalaure was converted simply phonetically to S. maglaur > maglor. Its pure Sindarin [development] would have been [deleted: maka-glawar] maka-glaur-. In S. glaware > glawar = Q. laure but as second element in compound glaware > glaur. magalor-.
3) S. celeg (*kelekā) = Q. tyelka. The form was celeg-orm because in North Sindarin medial m was not opened [to v] as in [?Western] Sindarin.
4) Curufin so usually written = Kurufinwe. C.E. kuru- skill, especially in artifices and devices. Q. kuro (kuru-) a skilful [?device]. Kurwe skill of the hand. [In] Sindarin kurwē > curu-. Finwe would in fact have given S. Fim but the Noldor Sindarized it as -fin.
5) [In] Sindarin carani- > caran + þîr face (< stīrē) [?substituted] for Q. car'ni-stîr(e). So Caranthir. [Mariginal note: Carastir?]
6) Amros(1) Sindarin for Ambarussa. Had Amros(2) Ambarto lived, it [i.e. the name Ambarto] would probably have been [Sindarized] as Amrod, but when [?encountered] at all in Sindarin form it was [?] Amarthan Fated One. S. ambart- > ammarth, amarth fate = Umbarto.
Maedros, Maglor, Celegorm, Curufin, Caranthir, Amros, Amarthan.

Finally, a note about the twin sons of Fëanor, who called each other Ambarussa, is quoted in full on XII:355, excepting its final sentence, which reads: "Others called them Minyarussa and Atyarussa"; i.e. 'First-russa' and 'Second-russa'
Having read this part of The shibboleth of Fëanor I also must say that Maglor really is established here as the name of Fëanors second son. So I think now that Maelor was passing idea, and that Tolkien change his mind and came back to Maglor. What do other say about that matter?

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