Ilúvatar's other theme.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

It is said that:

[T]he Children of Ilúvatar were conceived by him alone; and they came with the third theme, and were not in the theme which Ilúvatar propounded at the beginning, and none of the Ainur had part in their making.

The Ainulindalë--emphasis mine

Now let us look at some paragraphs of the Ainulindalë:

. . . Ilúvatar say and hearkened until it seemed that about his throne there was a raging storm, as of dark waters that made war upon one another in an endless wrath that would not be assuaged.
Then Ilúvatar arose, and the Ainur perceived that he smiled; and he lifted up his left hand, and a new theme began amid the storm, like and yet unlike to the former theme, and it gathered power and had new beauty. But the discord of Melkor rose in uproar and contended with it, and again there was a war of sound more violent than before . . .
. . . Then again Ilúvatar arose, and the Ainur perceived that his countenance was stern; and he lifted up his right hand, and behold! a third theme grew amid the confusion, and it was unlike the others.

ibid--emphases mine

So, the third theme birthed the Eruhíni. But Ilúvatar intervened twice during the course of the Music. My question is: What was that other theme for?

I used to think that the other theme was where Eru made the Quendi (qv.). Yet the third theme was clearly labelled, and it was the one credited for the creation of the Children of Ilúvatar. So I have doubts now with this theory.

The other is that there were a few of the Ainur who had been quiet, and Ilúvatar purposed for them to begin their theme only after he has given a signal--the uplifted left hand:

[Ilúvatar] spoke to [the Ainur], propounding to them themes of music; and they sang before him, and he was glad. But for a while they sang only each alone, or but few together, while the rest hearkened; for each comprehended only that part of the mind of Ilúvatar from which he came . . .

ibid--emphasis mine

What do you think? Am I correct in my assumptions? Or should I stick to planting rice?

[Findegil]

I do not remeber where, but it said that Manwe was the chiefe instrument of Iluvatars second theme. Since the Music represents the history of Eä, I would thinkt that the second theme began with Manwe taking up the kingship over Arda.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Mänwe]

Nilpaurion, you make an interesting theory. I have not the time to create a post of sufficient length to do this thread justice, but I thought i'd reply incase you have subscribed to the thread and are awaiting replies. Now you know that I will make a longer post.

[Farael]

I always saw it as if the Third music was the one to give birth to the Children of Iluvatar, while the previous two shaped and gave life to Arda. We know that the only "thing" in Arda that the Ainur had no power over were the Children of Eru. They created mountains and flooded oceans, controlled winds and growing things (besides Elves, Men and Dwarves... oh, and Hobbits but everyone seems to forget them). Given that the first two songs were in part songs of the Ainur (and that's why Melkor could "interfere") I thought they were the creation of Arda, even if it was not yet created, it set the blueprings for it.

The third song is Eru's for the most part, unlike every other because it deals with the creation of the Children. The Ainur had lesser influence on it and so Melkor could not oppose it.

At least, that's the way I read it... I'm sure someone will bring up some comment from the Letters which I do not have and prove me wrong, but until then, those are my thoughts.

[Maerbenn]

There is a lot on the Themes in Morgoth's Ring. From Author's Note 1 to the Commentary on the Athrabeth:

The Eldar held that Eru was and is free at all stages. This freedom was shown in the Music by His introduction, after the arising of the discords of Melkor, of the two new themes, representing the coming of Elves and Men, which were not in His first communication.

The passage is annotated by Christopher Tolkien, and the note reads:

In the Ainulindalë (p. 11, §13) it was expressly stated that the Children of Ilúvatar ‘came with the Third Theme, and were not in the theme which Ilúvatar propounded at the beginning’. Of the Second Theme it is said in the Ainulindalë (p. 14, §24) that ‘Manwë ... was the chief instrument of the Second Theme that Ilúvatar had raised up against the discord of Melkor.’
 It is perhaps possible that by ‘the two new themes’ in the present passage my father was thinking of the introduction of Elves and Men into the Music as allied ‘themes’ that in the Ainulindalë were described as ‘the Third Theme’, but it seems to me more probable that a different conception of the Music had entered. In this connection, in a passage in the final rewriting and elaboration of QS Chapter 6 (p. 275, §50) it is told that Melkor spoke secretly to the Eldar in Aman concerning Men, although he knew little about them, ‘for engrossed with his own thought in the Music he had paid small heed to the Second Theme of Ilúvatar’. If this was not simply an inadvertence, it might support the view that the Second and Third Themes had become those that introduced Elves and Men - although it would surely be in the Second Theme that the Elves entered, and Men in the Third. It may be noted also that in the draft continuation of the letter to Rhona Beare of October 1958 (Letters no. 212), to which I have several times referred, my father wrote: ‘Their “themes” were introduced into the Music by the One, when the discords of Melkor arose’; and there is a further reference to ‘the Themes of the Children’ in Author's Note 7 (p. 342).

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

About two weeks after posting this thread, I came upon this line in the Ainulindalë:

Manwë . . . was the chief instrument of the Second Theme that Ilúvatar had raised up against the discord of Melkor.

Ainulindalë

This, understandably, made me bang my head on the wall in shame.

But it seems that my first thought about the separate entrance may have bearing. You see, as a proponent of the special freedom of Men in Arda (not just Death, actual freedom from the Circles of the World, but the virtue to shape their life amid (indeed, in the BoLT version it says 'within' instead of 'amid,' which is more suggesting) the chances of the world beyond even the original Music of the Ainur). It seems to me to fit the make-up of the two Children.

Elves are bound to the World (i.e., Morgoth's Ring), while Men are not. They bring something new to the Theme that overcomes Morgoth's discord.

So, let's say Morgoth's theme is a tank. The Ainur's attempt to contain him is like using a pistol against a tank. It doesn't work.

Second theme (Elves?): Machine gun. The tank staggers back, but realises it's bullet-proof. Continue attack.

Third theme (Men?): Bring out the anti-tank missile. Boom!

I could expound on this, but I'm too busy thinking of Wolves. Sorry.

[drigel]

It is a good thread. I should have realized people had a different take on this idea. My thoughts on this always leaned more towards the metaphysical than the physical dimensions. I was going to use that same quote from Ainulindalë to suggest that here in the 2nd Theme is where we find the ideals, icons, or even standards of good and evil born, regardless of entity.

Way way higher up on the periodic chart, as it were..

[Raynor]

I was going to use that same quote from Ainulindalë to suggest that here in the 2nd Theme is where we find the ideals, icons, or even standards of good and evil born, regardless of entity.

I would say that evil entered the Ainulindale even before the second theme, together with Melkor's distortion of the first theme.

[drigel]

Originally Posted by Raynor

I would say that evil entered the Ainulindale even before the second theme, together with Melkor's distortion of the first theme.

In my mind, Melkor's distortion wasnt defined as evil (or, not in accordance) per say, after the first theme when

Ilúvatar arose, and the Ainur perceived that he smiled; and he lifted up his left hand,

rather when

Ilúvatar arose, and the Ainur perceived that his countenance was stern; and he lifted up his right hand

then begins the 3rd theme with Ea, and the children, revealing to the universe what would be later be recognized as good, in contrast to what was revealed in the 2nd theme.

May not make sense to anyone else but me but oh well...

[Findegil]

Well at least I am with you drigel!

I also think that it was not against any rule for Melkor to introduce his own idea into the music. That it did not fit the first theme of Eru was unconvenient and Melkor should hve marked it himself and stop introducing it. But such perfection was not asked from him since Eru still smiled introducing the second theme.

But here I begin to disagree with drigel: the sconde theme did define what was whished for by Eru. To continue with a theme alien to Erus first or seconde theme was acting deliberatly against the will of Eru, wich I would asume to be evil. Wich is then refelced by Erus stern face.

The third theme was than no longer to define what Erus police was, it was his way to deal with the effect of Melkors continued evil behavior. The theme was succesful because it found its way to get around the theme of Melkor and even benefit from that theme. But Melkor did not learn his lesson. Therefore Eru did stop the music in the end to teach him and the other in plain words.( )

That's how I read the Ainulindal. Thus I would say evil arose with Melkor continuing his theme after Erus first intervetion.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Raynor]

In the BoLT version, the entering of evil in the first theme is even clearer:

There [in the dark places] had he nonetheless fallen to thinking deep cunning thoughts of his own, all of which he showed not even to Iluvatar. Some of these devisings and imaginings he now wove into his music, and straightway harshness and discor- dancy rose about him, and many of those that played nigh him grew despondent and their music feeble, and their thoughts unfinished and unclear, while many others fell to attuning their music to his rather than to the great theme wherein they began.

In this way the mischief of Melko spread darkening the music, for those thoughts of his came from the outer blackness whither Iluvatar had not yet turned the light of his face; and because his secret thoughts had no kinship with the beauty of Iluvatar's design its harmonies were broken and destroyed. Yet sat Iluvatar and hearkened till the music reached a depth of gloom and ugliness unimaginable; then did he smile sadly and raised his left hand, and immediately, though none clearly knew how, a new theme began among the clash, like and yet unlike the first, and it gathered power and sweetness.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Wasn't is said in the BoLT version of the Ainulindalë that when he raised his left hand Eru smiled sadly?

[Raynor]

Yes, it is said that (in the HoME X version, that refference doesn't appear, though "the discord of Melkor" still is present before Eru's second theme).