The Genealogy of the House of Finwe

[The Barrow-Wight]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
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This thread was created at the request of Taimar to establish an evaluation of the &quot;The Genealogy of the House of Finwe&quot;.

------------- Perinent Texts -------------
TAIMAR WROTE:
The Silmarillion, Chapter 18, &quot;Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin&quot;, states that Gil-galad is the son of Fingon.

The Lost Road and other writings (Volume V of HoME), Part I, Chapter II, &quot;The Fall of Numenor&quot;, asserts that Gil-galad is descended from Feanor, but does not give his parentage, and several pages further on states that he is the son of Felagund.

The Return of the Shadow (Volume VI of HoME), Chapter XII, &quot;At Rivendell&quot;, again states that Gil-galad is descended from Feanor.

The Treason of Isengard (Volume VII of HoME), Chapter VI, &quot;The Council of Elrond&quot;, refers to him as Gil-galad son of Felagund son of Finrod. It should be noted that Finrod in this instance equates to Finarfin of the Silmarillion, and that Felagund in this instance is Finrod Felagund of the Silmarillion. It also states that in another draft JRR called him the son of Inglor.

MITHADAN WROTE:
Vol. 12 has Gil-Galad descended from Orodreth. I could be wrong but either Vol. 11 or 12 also may have him descended from either Angrod or Aegnor.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>Edited by <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000002>RKittle</A>&nbsp; <IMG SRC=http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/oneringicon.gif BORDER=0 WIDTH=10 HEIGHT=10> at: 7/27/00 10:28:42 am

[Taimar]

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Re: The Genealogy of the House of Finwe

Thanks, Chief Wight.

This thread started life as &quot;The parentage of Gil-galad&quot; on the Members forum. It became clear after a few posts that it would be a good idea to expand things a little so the Chief Wight has created this thread as an alternative. If you would like to add your thoughts on this matter, please do so on this thread and not the Gil-galad one. I have included the text of the posts made on the old thread below so that everyone can get up to speed.

Thanks,

T.

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Taimar
Barrow-wight

This seems to me one the most glaring inconsistencies in the various versions of the Sil. I think that CT felt that to make him the son of Fingon was the best way to tie things up in the published Silmarillion, but apparently he regretted doing this.

There are apparently four or five different versions of Gil-galad`s background. So I was wondering if anyone has any firm ideas as to which particular version we should adopt for our purposes?

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RKittle
Wraith of Angmar

Could you reference these 4-5 versions of Gilg-Galad's parentage? This will ensure every knows where to see them all.

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Taimar
Barrow-Wight

Sorry R. Thanks for pointing out the obvious omission from my previous post.

I will give volume and chapter names as references, since people may have different editions of the books, making page references confusing. The relevant texts are as follows:

The Silmarillion, Chapter 18, &quot;Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin&quot;, states that Gil-galad is the son of Fingon.

The Lost Road and other writings (Volume V of HoME), Part I, Chapter II, &quot;The Fall of Numenor&quot;, asserts that Gil-galad is descended from Feanor, but does not give his parentage, and several pages further on states that he is the son of Felagund.

The Return of the Shadow (Volume VI of HoME), Chapter XII, &quot;At Rivendell&quot;, again states that Gil-galad is descended from Feanor.

The Treason of Isengard (Volume VII of HoME), Chapter VI, &quot;The Council of Elrond&quot;, refers to him as Gil-galad son of Felagund son of Finrod. It should be noted that Finrod in this instance equates to Finarfin of the Silmarillion, and that Felagund in this instance is Finrod Felagund of the Silmarillion. It also states that in another draft JRR called him the son of Inglor.

I own the HoME up until Volume X, so there may be references in XI and XII ( which I hope to buy in the next couple of weeks).

I confess that I have no firm idea of what should be considered the `correct` descent for Gil-galad. I have read several times that Christopher Tolkien regretted making Gil-galad the son of Fingon in the published edition of the Silmarillion. I therefore thought that this may be a matter we would wish to discuss on this forum.

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Mithadan
Pile o' Bones

There are. I believe that Vol. 12 has Gil-Galad descended from Orodreth. I could be wrong but either Vol. 11 or 12 also may have him descended from either Angrod or Aegnor. BTW, there is also an inconsistency concerning Orodreth's parentage and his generation.

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Taimar
Barrow-Wight

Thanks, Mithadan. I had read on other boards about the versions where Gil-galad is perhaps descended from one of Finarfin`s other sons, but since I do not yet own volumes XI and XII of HoME, I could not give the references. I suspected that they must originate from those two books, but I wanted to be able to confirm this before posting anything.

I knew about the doubts over the heritage of Orodreth. You are correct to raise this since it also has an impact upon the genealogy of the House of Finwe. Indeed, I now propose, if this would be allowed by RKittle, that this particular thread be expanded. I suggest that it be renamed &quot;The Genealogy of the House of Finwe&quot;, and that it should cover all theories concerning the origins and parentage of Finwe`s descendants. What does everyone think?

(BTW, I am edging towards the opinion that we should consider Gil-galad a grandson of Finarfin, since this seems to have been JRR`s intention, though which one of Finarfin`s sons should be considered Gil-galad`s father is a matter for more debate.)

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RKittle
Wraith of Angmar

I have started a new forum and made &quot;The Genealogy of the House of Finwe&quot; the first topic there. I copied some of this thread to that one. Taimar, Please move/copy any other texts that you want to from this thread into that one.





Look into the http://www.fortunecity.co.uk/library/classiccourt/77/Mirror of Desire.</a> </p>Edited by <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000099>Taimar</A>&nbsp; <IMG SRC=http://www.ezboard.com/ezgfx/gicons/black_ball.gif BORDER=0 WIDTH=10 HEIGHT=10> at: 7/27/00 10:09:25 am

[lindil]

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Re: Genealogy of the House of Finwe[ Celeborn?]


[in HoME XII p.349-351]
where CRRT states that there can be no doubt that this was my fathers last word on the subject.
here reffering to an earlier genealogy: Finrod Felagund [childless] brother of Angrod,father of Orodreth father of GIl-Galad.
CRRT goes on to say that he regrets making the parentage of Gil-Galad specific in the published (1977) Silmarillion.



Lindil

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000076>lindil</A> at: 1/31/01 1:25:33 am

[lindil]

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House of Finwe

This is a very large issue if we include Celebrimbor , the sons of Feanor , The daughters of Fingolfin and Finarfin [or at least one of them ] and by a more remote extension [through Galadriel] Celeborn also.
If you pull at one thread alot of other little things get tugged.

Quite alot of 'minor' tales ride on this and I wonder if there is a principle that can be used to deduce it all.
the obvious one of 'what was his last stated idea' runs contrary to 'what was published in the LotR' .which according to various drafts and Letters was often [but not always ] a determining factor.

Tar Elenion as agreed to have a go at looking at the bigger picture of this and I for one eagerly await his research.

Lindil is often found on posting on the New Silmarillion Canon Forum at the Barrowdowns discussion board. 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>

[Orald]

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Re: House of Finwe

I think a side note should be all that is necessary. Something that says that &quot;this is what Tolkien had in LotR&quot;, &quot;This is what his last idea was&quot;, and These are all of his other ideas&quot;. We can't say for sure so an editorial note seems best to me.

</p>

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

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Re: House of Finwe

I agree with Durelen. We should work out the most likely (and most satisfactory parentage of Gil-Galad, then include a side-note.

Gwaihir the Windlord http://www.barrowdowns.comthe barrow-downs</A>
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