Elves: truly immortal?

[Ithaeliel]

WARNING: here follows the interpretations of a very literal person.

When we refer to elves, they are always referred to as 'immortal,' because they will live forever-- if nothing happens to them. But here's something I looked up on that inexpendable dictionary.com that got me thinking:

im·mor·tal (i-môr'tl) One not subject to death.

...and yet we call elves immortal. For one, they are very much subject to death, whether in battle or of grief, and for another, it is stated that the elves will only live until the end. For true immortals, there is no end. They will live on alone and unable to die even if they want to. The Eldar have a choice in the matter. They are not totally immortal; rather they are able to live forever. Any thoughts on this? Or am I reading too much into the word?

[obloquy]

Tolkien himself said that Elves only have 'enormously long lifespans'.

[Afrodal Fenyar]

Hmm, I've always thought that the elves will live even after the end, when Arda is made again. And the elves cannot die even if they want to, so I guess they are pretty much immortal. They don't die.

[obloquy]

Elven fëar are immortal, yes, but Elves are incarnate beings. Because of that nature, when an elf is deprived of its hröa it is called death.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

It does seem to be a bit of a misnomer, doesn't it? I see it however as a word that it is quite alright to use for lack of any better ones. I don't know if anyone else is able to, but I for one can't think of a more applicable word to use than 'immortal'...

[Legolas]

Yes, this has been covered before. Even if elves 'die' (whether slain or of grief), their spirits remain in the world and (most) are given a new body in Valinor. Even when slain, they do not leave the world. 'Immortal' in the elven sense means not subject to death by natural causes such as sickness or old age, and for one's fate to be tied to the fate of the world, destined to remain therein until that fate comes.

This matter popped in a few of the letters that Tolkien wrote in response to questions:

'Elves' are 'immortal', at least as far as this world goes: and hence are concerned rather with the griefs and burdens of deathlessness in time and change, than with death.

The doom of the Elves is to be immortal, to love the beauty of the world, to bring it to full flower with their gifts of delicacy and perfection, to last while it lasts, never leaving it even when 'slain', but returning – and yet, when the Followers come, to teach them, and make way for them, to 'fade' as the Followers grow and absorb the life from which both proceed.

Elves and Men are evidently in biological terms one race, or they could not breed and produce fertile offspring – even as a rare event : there are 2 cases only in my legends of such unions, and they are merged in the descendants of Eärendil.1 But since some have held that the rate of longevity is a biological characteristic, within limits of variation, you could not have Elves in a sense 'immortal' – not eternal, but not dying by 'old age' — and Men mortal, more or less as they now seem to be in the Primary World – and yet sufficiently akin.

I do not see that 'reincarnation' affects the resulting problems at all. But 'immortality' (in my world only within the limited longevity of the Earth) does, of course. As many fairy-stories perceive.

Here he notes that the Elvish immortality is 'limited immortality':

Túor weds Idril the daughter of Turgon King of Gondolin; and 'it is supposed' (not stated) that he as an unique exception receives the Elvish limited 'immortality': an exception either way.

elvish 'immortality' (which is not eternal, but measured by the duration in time of Earth)

One of the better ones:

They also possess a 'subcreational' or artistic faculty of great excellence. They are therefore 'immortal'. Not 'eternally', but to endure with and within the created world, while its story lasts. When 'killed', by the injury or destruction of their incarnate form, they do not escape from time, but remain in the world, either discarnate, or being re-born. This becomes a great burden as the ages lengthen, especially in a world in which there is malice and destruction (I have left out the mythological form which Malice or the Fall of the Angels takes in this fable).

immortality, strictly longevity co-extensive with the life of Arda, [...] Mortality, that is a short life-span having no relation to the life of Arda,

Here, a side note mentions true immortality:

Longevity or counterfeit 'immortality' (true immortality is beyond Ea) is the chief bait of Sauron – it leads the small to a Gollum, and the great to a Ringwraith.

Elves are 'immortal' enough to be called so by men:

The Elves were sufficiently longeval to be called by Man 'immortal'. But they were not unageing or unwearying. Their own tradition was that they were confined to the limits of this world (in space and time), even if they died, and would continue in some form to exist in it until 'the end of the world'.

I like his wording here - instead of true immortality, it's limitless (within the confines of the world, and thus time) serial longevity:

Though it is only in reading the work myself (with criticisms in mind) that I become aware of the dominance of the theme of Death. (Not that there is any original 'message' in that: most of human art & thought is similarly preoccupied.) But certainly Death is not an Enemy! I said, or meant to say, that the 'message' was the hideous peril of confusing true 'immortality' with limitless serial longevity. Freedom from Time, and clinging to Time. The confusion is the work of the Enemy, and one of the chief causes of human disaster.

In Letter No. 325, Tolkien is careful to indicate a difference. When referring to the elves, he uses single quotes -"the 'immortals'"; when referring to the Ainur, he removes them - "the angelic immortals."

[ May 31, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

[Lyra Greenleaf]

One question, this is not the forum I know but it seems relevant. OK- Arwen makes the choice of the Peredhil and chooses mortality, and marrying Aragorn. However according to the film of TTT, she has to live until the 'long years of her life are utterly spent'. How long would she live? I believe in the appendices it's about a year, is it not?

And Aragorn tells her to find a ship to take her to the West doesn't he? But if she's chosen mortality she can't (right?) so why does he say it?

Actually that was more than one question. Sorry!

[Legolas]

However according to the film of TTT, she has to live until the 'long years of her life are utterly spent'. How long would she live? I believe in the appendices it's about a year, is it not?
And Aragorn tells her to find a ship to take her to the West doesn't he? But if she's chosen mortality she can't (right?) so why does he say it?

What the film said meant simply that with choosing mortality, Arwen would have to live until her death (sounds obvious) - but implying that it was a final choice and there was a chance that she would live longer than Aragorn. Arwen is only one generation removed from Elros, who lived 400+ years, in comparison to Aragorn who is way on down the line.

Aragorn telling her to find a ship is just Aragorn wishing she could go back with her father after he is gone - I don't think he understood the choice (a *permanent* choice).

[Man-of-the-Wold]

The quotes assembled by BD-Legolas, are extraordinary. As I now approach HoME X-XII, I plan to pace those writings with Letters, and I'll let the wisdom flow over me.

Nevertheless, I think the bottom-line is that JRR Tolkien was perfectly aware and intentionally did not want the Elves to actually satisfy the latin-based English definition of "immortality." Heck, he at one time wrote dictionaries.

In the Books themselves, I would submit that the label "immortal" is rarely applied for this very reason. In terms of "Fantasy" literature in general, which Tolkien effortlessly transcends, this is easily forgotten, or attributed to simply his writing style. But it is not stylistic, but philosophical. The Films, of course, are forced to use the label, not having time to dwell on subtleties.

At the same time, though, Tolkien is very sure to label Men (and Hobbits) as "Mortals," in contrast to the other Free Peoples, apparently even Dwarves by implication.

In these regards, Tolkien in my view was trying to make some very fundamental points and comments about human beings in this world. Ideas that meant a great deal to him.

The first one that comes to mind is that JRRT is offering a more meaningful (and perhaps more plausible?) representation of the types of creatures or persons that populate Northern European legends, and how this informed our own view of ourselves.

Tolkien's Elves are blatantly not "fairies" in what he might have considered a caricatured sense, even if they go to "Fairië", nor are they like Tom Bombadil, Goldberry and the Istari, who are perhaps the one true "immortals" that the reader ever really meets as characters. In some cases, Elves are great warriors, usually taller if not bigger than Men, even if some Edain/Dunedain were also taller than most Elves. I think one also sees Tolkien's searching in this direction by his fixation on various Tuetonic uses of the name Godwine or Elfwine (like Eomer's son), which mean god-friend and elf-friend, in "The Lost Road" writings.

Curiously, if you take one part Elf and one part Hobbit, you basically have something that would generically correspond to most such legendary denizens.

Secondly, he is contrasting Elves and Men as the two children of Iluvatar. This is not so much in terms of the differences of their natural existence, but rather their respective afterlife, and to what degree their spirit or soul is part of this World or not.

Elves are spirits of this world, and in a sense they simply do not and cannot leave it. This spirtual power, however, transcends the natural corpus and allows them to indefinitely sustain the beauty of youth, be immune to all disease, and avoid death by other than the most grievous physical or mental injury.

Men on the other hand are not spirits of this world, and this world ravages and wears down there bodies as easily as it does any living creature, releasing the soul to be closer to Iluvatar, or God.

In a sense, Tolkien is trying with Elves to present an image for how we would ideally sees ourselves in terms of this world. While at same time showing how the cruel reality of our existence is a reflection of how much we really don't belong here. At the same time, during this brief existence and with the Dominion of Men, humans have the free will and potential to accomplish true greatness, "beyond the Music of the Ainur".

But the true gift and ultimate potential is leaving this world and connecting with our creator. Indeed, the purpose of Men as alluded to in the [I]Akallabeth[I], for which "many ages of Men unborn may pass ere that purpose is made known" is in my opinion an allusion to the Coming of the Word.

[Man-of-the-Wold]

BD-Legolas raises interesting points in terms of Arwen's existence after Aragorn's death.

I think in the Books there is no doubt of it lasting only about a year or so. But the Film isn't off base in that that was not necessarily predictable at any time. Still, it does not seem defensible that she would live as long as Elros, having already been around for 3,000 years.

Given the obvious potential (even as I believe otherwise) that Elladan and Elrohir could have joined their father later, I believe that the length of time, in which they could choose, would be relatively short, in all likelihood: a normal adult life span. After this, it would be too late, and they would probably live only for another adult life span, or the roughly 120 years that Arwen and Aragorn had together.

In Arwen's case the choice was permanent from the time she married a Mortal, and everyone knew. I believe Aragorn's dying utterance to the apparent contrary reflect one or two things, which show him to not be absulutely perfect: (1) He's guilty to have brought her to that point, and taste the true bitterness of mortality: the loss of those we love, and (2) He is ignobly testing her love.

[Lyra Greenleaf]

Heck, he at one time wrote dictionaries.

Ah, but only for "W"... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Thanks for the clarification, Legolas.

[Elentarimir]

Elves just don't die of old age, and when they die from wounds or sickness, they wait in the Halls of Mandos for a while, then they are reincarnated. Immortal is probably not the best of terms, because, when you think of immortal, you generally think of ha-ha-I-can't-be-killed! Whereas Tolkien's Elves CAN be killed, they're just reincarnated later.

[Frodo2968thewhite]

Exactly, Elves can die, but their spirit will come back in a body that looks VERY similar (a little like the "Gandalf" scenario). So Elves are completely Immortal.

[Falagar]

The Elves indeed die of old age.
Edit: Sorry, forgot to write page and book:
Myths transformed, page 427 in Morgoth's Ring:

[...]On earth the Quendi suffered no sickness and the health of their bodies was supported by the might of the longeval fëar. But their bodies, being of the stuff of Arda, were nontheless not so enduring as their spirits; for the longvity of the Quendi was derived primarily from their fëar, whose nature or 'doom' was to abide in Arda until its end. Therefore, after the vitality of the hröa was expended in achieving full growth, it began to weaken or grow weary. Very slowly indeed, but to all the Quendi perceptibly. For a while it would be fortified and maintained by its indwelling fëa, and then its vitality would begin to ebb, and its desire for physical life and joy in it would pass ever more swiftly away. Then an Elf would begin (as they say now, for these things did not fully appear in the Elder Days) to 'fade', until the fëa as it were consumed the hröa until it remained only in the love and memory of the spirit that had inhabited it. But in Aman, since its blessing descended upon the hröar of the Eldar, as upon all other bodies, the hröar aged only apace with the fëar, and the Eldar that remained in the Blessed Realm endured in full maturity and in undimmed power of body and spirit conjoined for ages beyond our mortal comprehension.

So they may 'die' (we'll need an clear definition of 'die', here it is in the sense of loosing ones body), it just takes a couple of 1000...1000000...years [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[ June 03, 2003: Message edited by: Falagar ]

[Reginald Hill]

I know that many times in LotR Tolkien refers to man's mortality as the "doom of man," but did he not also say

for the longvity of the Quendi was derived primarily from their fëar, whose nature or 'doom' was to abide in Arda until its end.

It seems worse to live forever (the elves must tire of the world sometime). Just like that book Tuck, Everlasting, didn't the immortal family advise the kid not to drink form the fountain (that might be wrong, because I read the book a long time ago, but I think they didn't want to live forever).
This raises the interesting question of whether it is better to live "forever" or to go to ME "heaven" faster.

[barandilwen]

it's kinda weird if you call someone, more specifically an elf, immortal even though they can die out of sadness and in battle... yes, they can live on and on until their end if they have one but i can't still get it why we call them immortal

Well, I have also wondered about the use of the term immortal with Elves. And after much consideration here's what I came up with. If you go to dictionary.com and look up invulnerable it says,
# Impossible to damage, injure, or wound

..Now while it does bend the languge a bit, I always like to think of the term immortal as meaning 'one not subject to death or aging by natural cuases.' So when you put it into these terms you could say that Elves are immortal but not invulnerable. That's just how I like to think of it anyway.

~Nightwind

[Nalyia]

Frankly, I believe that in all senses reveled in man kind, elves ARE immortal. For they are like time, forever exsisting until the end of it. In a sense of mortality, everything can die, including time. However, since no human has ever lived over the age of 159(I think) nothing can be proven as mortal or immortal, because no human has lived long enough to tell so. We don't know if Stone Henge has exisisted forever, we know nothing about times and dates, only what we surmise or guess. SO Therefor NOTHING can be proven from anything .EVER.
think what you will, it will not change the world. But be true to what you think, for that can change the world.


in short, elves are immortal, or theyr'e not, choose which one you think is correct and STOP BICKERING ABOUT IT.

plus, a dose of philosopy for you!!! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

[The Saucepan Man]

One thing bothers me about Elvish "immortality", though.

It is said that they can die as a result of a physical assault, for example in combat. But they are immune from disease. And yet all diseases involve physical trauma of some kind. Viruses, bacteria and malignant growths all cause physical damage to the body, just like a blow from a sword does. What is it, I wonder, that makes them immune to internal assault, when they are vulnerable to external attack?

Psychological disorders are perhaps in a different category, and yet one form of psychological stress is fatal to Elves. They are prone to die from great sadness. Why so?

I know that I'm just being pernickety here and that I should simply suspend belief. But any theories?

[Ithaeliel]

What is it, I wonder, that makes them immune to internal assault, when they are vulnerable to external attack?

I believe it is because elves have an incredible *cough* inhuman immune system, whereas a wound involves, well... blood. Blood that escapes the body and causes exhaustion and ultimately death. But that has always bothered me too. That brings up another point. In the Silmarillion, when Eol tracked Aredhel and Maeglin to Gondolin and hit Aredhel with a poisoned spear, Aredhel is not killed by the blow. She dies later that day, from the poison. Poison is considered an internal hurt. Wouldn't an elvish immune system powerful enough to neutralize any kind of disease that entered the body be able to neutralize poison also? I'm sure Tolkien had to have considered this, but he wrote it down anyway that she (as well as other elves, probably) died from a poisonous wound. Am I wrong that this is contradicting the fact that elves can fend off any internal assault?

[Man-of-the-Wold]

Well, with the Elvish variety of "indefinite" if not necessarily "infinite" lifespan, I think the reason JRRT listed Elves as being immune to disease, as well as old age, was more philosophical than biological.

Old age and disease are natural maladies that affect or infect the mortal world. A serious injury, whether physical or mental is an unnatural event that may be too much to overcome.

And, I think one can take this line of thinking and find the biological justification.

The point is that Elves as powerful spirits of the natural world are able to "transcend" the effects of everyday natural forces on their physical bodies. Whether you attribute it to a hypereffective immune system, or more metaphysically to secondary power that negates harmful pathogens, makes no difference.

I tend to go to the latter. Lothlorien is presented as the epitome of Elvish power manifested in the mortal world. The thing there is that no stain exists on any leaf. It is in the subtle lack of flaws that make's it so beautiful. What are stains in a garden? Molds, bacteria, algae. Ecologically, it is not possible to have any type of environment without these entities, and indeed they may still be there, working magic. But they to not appear or destroy in an ugly way. Likewise, Elvish bodies may still enjoy the symbiotic or helpful aspects of microbial interactions, but not the deleterious ones. The Quendi have power over such basic elements, as they can make goods out of fibers with incredible, but non-technological attributes.

As for Aredhel, I would not think that a powerful toxin, devised by Elves, is necessarily comparable to a pathogenic infection. The latter has to happen before there is disease. The direct introduction of a tissue-destroying substance, seems comparable to massive trauma that can simply not be repaired without instanteously overcoming basic structural laws of existence. It is interesting that JRRT chose to placed grief and extreme psychological distress in this same category.

Also, of interest is how Men are in some ways "hardier" than Elves. One has a picture, that while Elves are more able to ultimately survive greater suffering or deprivation, that Men for limited period times are at least more "willing" to endure physical hardship. The reasons for this are perhaps threefold:
1. Men, and especially the Edain, while not always taller are larger and physically stronger than the average Elf. So, partly, it is a matter of stature.
2. With their short lives, Men are perhaps more willing to take risks and put in on the line. Ironically, it is the indefinite life that may be the more precious.
3. Men have the ability to create beyond the Music of Ainur which is fate to all else. This is not really a matter of hardiness, but may explain how Turin, Tuor and others were able to rise in such esteem among the Elves that they became leaders unto them.

[Lady Of Light]

Wow, this is what I love about elves! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
I think that when Tolkien calls something immortal, he isn't expecting us to look that far into the word. I believe that elves are immortal in comparison to our human understanding, not literally. Because if something can live on for thousands of years and not age, I'd say that is quite immortal. While they may be able to die, or be connected to the earth so when it is gone, they die, so forth and et cetera, it is just really inconceivable to us to be able to live "forever" Humans have no word for what the elves are like, because we can't begin to understand it.

[Nalyia]

yes, lady of light ,but one of the points I was trying to make was that people, especially humans don't know how long something has lived ,becuase WE haven't lived long enough. You understand?

[One Axe to Rule them All]

i think it's just that they've lived so long that nobody or nothing remembers how old they are....

[Gorwingel]

To me the elves have always been beings who have extremely long lifespans and are not subject to sickness (except for sadness). But I also do consider them immortal because they do fit my definition of immortal. They don't age, they get to stay here forever, and we know where they go (when men die we don't really know where they go because Tolkien never really specified that, we can just guess). They also don't really age (well actually they kinda do) but not in the way that men do, don't they talk about how Galadriel becomes even more beautiful and noble as she ages.

[rutslegolas]

i never considered elves immortal as they die when they can be killed by weapons

[tom bombariffic]

Ok I got bored reading some of the really long posts cos im tired, so someone may have said this already, but I noticed a lot of people are saying that once elves are slain or pass away with grief, their spirits remain, and then some come back in different bodies, or in very similar forms. So why does Glorfindel come back as Glorfindel? I was led to believe that he dies, and comes back later in the exact same form. Although Im probably wrong.

Oh and whoever wrote the last post has obviously been reading even less of the posts than me - elves "dying" in battle has been covered umpteen times in this thread alone.

[Lhundulinwen]

Maybe I should have read more of the forum before posting, but I think that elves just have to wait a lot longer to go to the Tolkien version of "heaven". I think that the hobbits and other species made by the Valar (sorry if that's wrong, I just started the Silm.) get to go to "heaven" and so do the elves, most elves just have a lot longer life span. The fact that they can "die" (ie: leave that life and move on) in certain circumstances, says to me that at some point *all* elves will move on. But what'd I know? That's just my oppion.

[Neferchoirwen]

If their immortality is such that exists within the created world, then I guess it can be said that their physical being is tied to their soul or vice versa. Or, that their soul and their physical body is tied within the confines of the universe, which is why they reincarnate. The cycle of reincarnation is what makes them immortal. (this notion is somewhat incomplete...corrections are welcome, though)

When it comes to Men, then, their "blessing" is that they do not need to go through the cycle of waiting to be reincarnated.

Looking at these differences, what does Tolkien think of immortality? I don't think that he seems to be thrilled about the notion of living forever, considering that he calls Man's mortality a "gift."